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António Marques
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 Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:31 pm Post subject: Yamamoto Tsunetomo |
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Hi.
I>ve heard a text by Yamamoto Tsunetomo put into 'song'. I found an
english version of it, but no transliteration of the original. I was
wondering whether someone could correct my transcription below and
perhaps tell me what the words are or point me to a dictionary (which
I>d be able to use if I could isolate the words: the only one I having
been able to recognise so far being 'kataki').
NB this transcription doesn>t try to be very accurate; I grouped
syllables into what seemed words but may not be, with little attention
to stress; <'> stands for sounds which were one-of-a-kind so I was
uncomfy to assign a letter to them.
saiSiu gara no
dZinzEnu tabi dZi
kad>usko nai
Sino tomo
Sindits nana va
Sindits nana va
vudZi nOme stai
oma e no kataki
ma moro Sinemita
ha na takari
haptamen zEkioto
bodzurak'
tantoni kaketanme o
hagakurE
And the english version:
honour the Blade
a final pilgrimage to life
friends are few indeed
a truth to be
a truth to be
a will to strike your enemy
wash the blossom of dreams
a white mask falls
and screams
hidden among the leaves
(For all his talk about seeking death, it seems Tsunetomo died of
natural causes.)
Thanks in advance,
--
António Marques |
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Bart Mathias
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| Posted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:01 pm Post subject: Re: Yamamoto Tsunetomo |
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António Marques wrote:
[quote]Hi.
I>ve heard a text by Yamamoto Tsunetomo put into 'song'. I found an
english version of it, but no transliteration of the original. I was
wondering whether someone could correct my transcription below and
perhaps tell me what the words are or point me to a dictionary (which
I>d be able to use if I could isolate the words: the only one I having
been able to recognise so far being 'kataki').
NB this transcription doesn>t try to be very accurate; I grouped
syllables into what seemed words but may not be, with little attention
to stress; <'> stands for sounds which were one-of-a-kind so I was
uncomfy to assign a letter to them.
[/quote]
Well, I like puzzles, so although I haven>t heard the song, I>ll make
some guesses based on your version of the Japanese and the English
translation you provide. Then we can hope someone will come along and
make a final correction. Best suggestion is to cross-post to
sci.lang.japan; there>s a member of that group who can probably recite
the thing without peeking.
I did try googling "Yamamoto Tsunetomo," but unsuccessfully, probably
because I had to leave the "Tsunetomo" in kana.
(But I found it later when I checked on Hagakure; the characters are
'forever morning.' When he matured, he read them "jo:cho:" apparently.
[quote]saiSiu gara no
[/quote]
No real guess. "saishuu" sounds like "(the) final ___,"
but -gara doesn>t obviously fit. I don>t see anything about honoring a
blade here.
[quote]dZinzEnu tabi dZi
[/quote]
Must be "jinsei-no tabiji," 'travel-road of (human) life.'
[quote]kad>usko nai
[/quote]
"kazu sukunai" 'few in number'?
[quote]Sino tomo
[/quote]
One possibility--doesn>t fit the English, though--is "shinu-tomo"
'though one die.' On the other hand, "tomo" could be 'companion,' which
would fit the English better, but I don>t know what to do with "Sino" then.
[quote]Sindits nana va
[/quote]
Shinjitsu is 'truth.' I suspect it may be "shinjitsu-na-no-wa" 'that it
is the truth' as thematic element.
[quote]Sindits nana va
vudZi nOme stai
[/quote]
"uchinomeshita" would mean something like '(who) s.o. smote to the ground.'
[quote]oma e no kataki
[/quote]
"omae-no kataki" would be 'your enemy.' The preceding phrase would
modify it (relative clause like), except for the "i" you hear on the end.
[quote]ma moro Sinemita
ha na takari
[/quote]
"hana" would be 'flower, blossom.' "hanazakari" 'full bloom'?
[quote]haptamen zEkioto
[/quote]
If you could change that to [h,ak:amen:] /HyaQkameN/, that would give
you 'white mask.'
[quote]bodzurak'
[/quote]
No guess. I keep trying to get a "-zuraku/-zuraki" 'trying, painful,'
but "bo"?
[quote]tantoni kaketanme o
[/quote]
/taNto:/ would be 'short sword.' "tantou-ni kaketa himei-(w)o" maybe?
But 'screams vented(?) on a short-sword' is a bit wild.
Oh! Well, Hagakure, 'leaf-hiding,' is a book (11 "volumes") on Bushido,
'the way of the warrior.' Yamamoto Jocho (Jouchou)/Tsunetomo turns out
to be the narrator of it, or something like that.
[quote]And the english version:
honour the Blade
a final pilgrimage to life
friends are few indeed
a truth to be
a truth to be
a will to strike your enemy
wash the blossom of dreams
a white mask falls
and screams
hidden among the leaves
(For all his talk about seeking death, it seems Tsunetomo died of
natural causes.)
Thanks in advance,[/quote] |
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Harlan Messinger
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: Yamamoto Tsunetomo |
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Bart Mathias wrote:
[quote]
I did try googling "Yamamoto Tsunetomo," but unsuccessfully, probably
because I had to leave the "Tsunetomo" in kana.
(But I found it later when I checked on Hagakure; the characters are
'forever morning.' When he matured, he read them "jo:cho:" apparently.
[/quote]
For future reference, people who write bios on WIkipedia tend to give
the native forms of people>s names. From
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamamoto_Tsunetomo
one can get 山本常朝. |
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Bart Mathias
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:32 am Post subject: Re: Yamamoto Tsunetomo |
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Harlan Messinger wrote:
[quote]Bart Mathias wrote:
I did try googling "Yamamoto Tsunetomo," but unsuccessfully, probably
because I had to leave the "Tsunetomo" in kana.
(But I found it later when I checked on Hagakure; the characters are
'forever morning.' When he matured, he read them "jo:cho:" apparently.
For future reference, people who write bios on WIkipedia tend to give
the native forms of people>s names. From
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamamoto_Tsunetomo
one can get 山本常朝.
[/quote]
But that will only work for people still mentally competent enough not
to read "I>ve heard a text by Yamamoto Tsunetomo put into 'song'" and
then think that Yamamoto Tsunetomo is a modern singer who wouldn>t
likely be mentioned in an English Wikipedia. |
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Antnio Marques
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:31 pm Post subject: Re: Yamamoto Tsunetomo |
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Bart Mathias wrote:
[quote]... I>ll use standard "waapuro" (word-processor) romanization,
wherein "long 'o>s" are spelt "oo" except for special cases.
[/quote]
Domo arigatoo, then, Bart-san. Most of it seems clear now. I still
wonder whether the singer is japanese; at this time I>m even wondering
if all the verses are Tsunetomo>s or some are inserted, but here>s
really not more information I can extract from it, short of reading the
whole Hagakure itself, which won>t be tomorrow. Anyway, you>ve covered
almost every point. Thanks!
--
Antnio Marques |
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Bart Mathias
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:03 am Post subject: Re: Yamamoto Tsunetomo |
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Antnio Marques wrote:
[quote]Bart Mathias wrote:
... I>ll use standard "waapuro" (word-processor) romanization,
wherein "long 'o>s" are spelt "oo" except for special cases.
[/quote]
How did that stupidity slip by? Long "o"s are spelt "ou" except for
special cases in the new romaji. (A matter recently discussed in these
pages.)
[quote]Domo arigatoo, then, Bart-san. Most of it seems clear now. I still
wonder whether the singer is japanese; at this time I>m even wondering
if all the verses are Tsunetomo>s or some are inserted, but here>s
really not more information I can extract from it, short of reading the
whole Hagakure itself, which won>t be tomorrow. Anyway, you>ve covered
almost every point. Thanks![/quote] |
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