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mpm · Guest

Quick question:
Is the "www." thing really needed for URL>s.
My browsers (AOL & IE) seem to work just fine either way.

The only reason I ask, is there seems to be an uptick in the number of
people making a point that the www is not needed. As if they
registered separate domains.

mpm · Guest

On Jul 27, 12:45�pm, mpm <mpmill...@aol.com> wrote:
[quote]Quick question:
Is the "www." thing really needed for URL>s.
My browsers (AOL & IE) seem to work just fine either way.

The only reason I ask, is there seems to be an uptick in the number of
people making a point that the www is not needed. �As if they
registered separate domains.
[/quote]
OMG, my head is going to explode!
Can somebody simplify the above (most, if not all of it)??

microsoft.com and www.microsoft.com

Are they the same thing, or are they different?
Can one always take you to destination-A, and the other always to
destination-B?
Can they be owned by different entities?

How would a DNS resolve this?

Jan Panteltje · Guest

On a sunny day (Sun, 27 Jul 2008 09:45:43 -0700 (PDT)) it happened mpm
<mpmillard@aol.com> wrote in
<c0d129bd-fa5c-4b17-9d85-375cb1758b39@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>:

[quote]Quick question:
Is the "www." thing really needed for URL>s.
My browsers (AOL & IE) seem to work just fine either way.

The only reason I ask, is there seems to be an uptick in the number of
people making a point that the www is not needed. As if they
registered separate domains.
[/quote]
The www 'can' be defined in the name server config files,
so if you owned domain 'something.net' and defined 'www.something.net',
then a name lookup will find www.something net,
if you did not define www.something.net, it won>t find it,
but it will still find something.net.
It is up to the sys administrator.
For example
http://panteltje.com
will work,
but
http://www.panteltje.com
will _not_ work, as I did not define it.

And http is the protocol, the browser will default to that,
but it could be ftp, https, etc..

PS
A name server is a server that is part of a global network that
translates the human names we have for sites to an IP number.

So when you type http://panteltje.com, the browser will ask the
nameserver network for the IP address related to that, and the
nameserver network will finally ask my nameserver.
There are pointers to the IP addresses of my nameserver in a global database,
so the network knows where to look.

Hope this helps.

mpm · Guest

On Jul 27, 6:37�pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:

Thanks Jeff.
That explains it.

So, in all liklihood, all these guys jumping around claiming they
don>t need the 'www" (for whatever benefit they see in that? - which
to me is none), are just "lucky" that their particular DNS happens to
have both URL formats (with and without www) pointing to the same
server.

Your explaination also answers another question I had, but did ask:
And that was along the lines of subdomains, such as www.xyz.microsoft.com

-mpm

Jan Panteltje · Guest

On a sunny day (Sun, 27 Jul 2008 16:58:33 GMT) it happened Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote in <g6i9ft$uld$1@aioe.org>:

[quote]For example
http://panteltje.com
will work,
but
http://www.panteltje.com
will _not_ work, as I did not define it.
[/quote]
Eh, I _did_ define it. so it also works.... must have forgotton about it :-)

But anyways www.xxx and xxx can point to a total different machine:

grml:# host microsoft.com
microsoft.com has address 207.46.197.32
microsoft.com has address 207.46.232.182

grml: # host www.microsoft.com
www.microsoft.com is an alias for toggle.www.ms.akadns.net.
toggle.www.ms.akadns.net is an alias for g.www.ms.akadns.net.
g.www.ms.akadns.net is an alias for lb1.www.ms.akadns.net.
lb1.www.ms.akadns.net has address 207.46.19.190
lb1.www.ms.akadns.net has address 207.46.19.254
lb1.www.ms.akadns.net has address 207.46.192.254
lb1.www.ms.akadns.net has address 207.46.193.254
lb1.www.ms.akadns.net has address 65.55.21.250

And yet, typing the IP addresses brings you back to the microsoft site.
What a tangled web they weave ;-)

Jan Panteltje · Guest

On a sunny day (Sun, 27 Jul 2008 13:39:29 -0700) it happened donald
<Donald@dontdoithere.com> wrote in
<qe-dnaNKEORPUxHVnZ2dnUVZ_h-dnZ2d@comcast.com>:

[quote]http://panteltje.com
will work,
but
http://www.panteltje.com
will _not_ work, as I did not define it.

I clicked on both and the same site came up.
[/quote]
Yes, see my other posting, I _did_ add it, but forgot about it it seems.

[quote]So I guess that the name servers have both it its databases.
[/quote]
Yes.

[quote]I have seen sites in the past not respond correctly till I added the
www. in front of the name.

go figure

donald[/quote]

donald · Guest

Jan Panteltje wrote:
[quote]On a sunny day (Sun, 27 Jul 2008 09:45:43 -0700 (PDT)) it happened mpm
mpmillard@aol.com> wrote in
c0d129bd-fa5c-4b17-9d85-375cb1758b39@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>:

Quick question:
Is the "www." thing really needed for URL>s.
My browsers (AOL & IE) seem to work just fine either way.

The only reason I ask, is there seems to be an uptick in the number of
people making a point that the www is not needed. As if they
registered separate domains.

The www 'can' be defined in the name server config files,
so if you owned domain 'something.net' and defined 'www.something.net',
then a name lookup will find www.something net,
if you did not define www.something.net, it won>t find it,
but it will still find something.net.
It is up to the sys administrator.
For example
http://panteltje.com
will work,
but
http://www.panteltje.com
will _not_ work, as I did not define it.
[/quote]
I clicked on both and the same site came up.

So I guess that the name servers have both it its databases.

I have seen sites in the past not respond correctly till I added the
www. in front of the name.

go figure

donald

[quote]
And http is the protocol, the browser will default to that,
but it could be ftp, https, etc..

PS
A name server is a server that is part of a global network that
translates the human names we have for sites to an IP number.

So when you type http://panteltje.com, the browser will ask the
nameserver network for the IP address related to that, and the
nameserver network will finally ask my nameserver.
There are pointers to the IP addresses of my nameserver in a global database,
so the network knows where to look.

Hope this helps.
[/quote]

Kris Krieger · Guest

donald <Donald@dontdoithere.com> wrote in
news:qe-dnaNKEORPUxHVnZ2dnUVZ_h-dnZ2d@comcast.com:

[quote]Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Sun, 27 Jul 2008 09:45:43 -0700 (PDT)) it happened
mpm <mpmillard@aol.com> wrote in
c0d129bd-fa5c-4b17-9d85-375cb1758b39@z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>:

Quick question:
Is the "www." thing really needed for URL>s.
My browsers (AOL & IE) seem to work just fine either way.

The only reason I ask, is there seems to be an uptick in the number
of people making a point that the www is not needed. As if they
registered separate domains.

The www 'can' be defined in the name server config files,
so if you owned domain 'something.net' and defined
'www.something.net', then a name lookup will find www.something net,
if you did not define www.something.net, it won>t find it,
but it will still find something.net.
It is up to the sys administrator.
For example
http://panteltje.com
will work,
but
http://www.panteltje.com
will _not_ work, as I did not define it.

I clicked on both and the same site came up.

So I guess that the name servers have both it its databases.

I have seen sites in the past not respond correctly till I added the
www. in front of the name.

go figure

donald
[/quote]
Well, becasue not all sites are resigered as www.sitename.

If you bought (registered) http://www.donald.com, IIRC someone else could
buy http://donald.com. I>ve seen taht happen, in that there are times I
forgot to type in the "www", and got a completely different website from
what I>d get by including the "www". Often, the website result will be
the same, but not always. ((I had that happen the other day, but now I
can>t remember what I was looking for, so can>t offer the example,
sorry.))

It>s similar in that reard to .com, .net, .org, and other suffixes - if
you register a website as www.donald.com, you own that precise name -
someone else can buy www.donald.net, www.donald.tv, www.donald.org, and
whatever other suffixes are around now.

This is most common with "catchy" names, popular words/phrases, and the
like.

HTH

[quote]
And http is the protocol, the browser will default to that,
but it could be ftp, https, etc..

PS
A name server is a server that is part of a global network that
translates the human names we have for sites to an IP number.

So when you type http://panteltje.com, the browser will ask the
nameserver network for the IP address related to that, and the
nameserver network will finally ask my nameserver.
There are pointers to the IP addresses of my nameserver in a global
database, so the network knows where to look.

Hope this helps.

[/quote]

Jeff Liebermann · Guest

On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 14:43:53 -0700 (PDT), mpm <mpmillard@aol.com>
wrote:

[quote]OMG, my head is going to explode!
[/quote]
Put a plastic bag over your head. It will contain the explosion and
make cleanup somewhat easier.

[quote]microsoft.com and www.microsoft.com
Are they the same thing, or are they different?
[/quote]
Different.
www.microsoft.com is a FQDN (fully qualified domain name). The three
parts shown are:
com The TLD (top level domain).
microsoft The domain.
www The server, hose, or machine.
In order to specify a FQDN, you need all three.

If you only specifiy microsoft.com, that>s only the domain and can
refer to any of Microsoft>s servers.

However, many DNS servers are configured to redirect calls to the
domain, to a specific server. That>s why just microsoft.com works.
For example:

C:\>nslookup
Default Server: DD-WRT
Address: 192.168.1.1

[quote]microsoft.com
Server: DD-WRT[/quote]
Address: 192.168.1.1

Non-authoritative answer:
Name: microsoft.com
Addresses: 207.46.197.32, 207.46.232.182

[quote]www.microsoft.com
Server: DD-WRT[/quote]
Address: 192.168.1.1

Non-authoritative answer:
Name: lb1.www.ms.akadns.net
Addresses: 65.55.21.250, 207.46.19.190, 207.46.19.254, 207.46.192.254
207.46.193.254
Aliases: www.microsoft.com, toggle.www.ms.akadns.net
g.www.ms.akadns.net

Note that the lookup points to the Akamai DNS redirectors.
<http://news.cnet.com/2100-1001-251686.html>
You picked a rather bad example becuase MS uses a load balancing
system, where the DNS (domain name service) redirects lookups of
www.microsoft.com to a localized pool of available servers to avoid
overloading any particular server.

[quote]Can one always take you to destination-A, and the other always to
destination-B?
[/quote]
No. With load balancing and DNS redirection, the decision is not
yours. You can select a specific server ONLY by IP address, not name.

[quote]Can they be owned by different entities?
[/quote]
No. All sub-domains and server names under microsoft.com are owned by
whomever owns microsoft.com. You can delegate ownership and control
of subdomains, as is common in the geographic domains, such as .US,
but I doubt that Microsoft will tolerate that. For example, my office
FQDN server is comix.comix.santa-cruz.ca.us. The US domain is owned
by Network Solutions. The .ca.us domain is also run by them.
santa-cruz.ca.us is run by chime.com. I own the sub-domain of
comix.santa-cruz.ca.us. The gateway server is non-cleverly named
comix.comix.santa-cruz.ca.us. There>s also
smtp.comix.santa-cruz.ca.us and www.comix.santa-cruz.ca.us, but
they>re local only in my office.

[quote]How would a DNS resolve this?
[/quote]
How DNS redirection works:
<http://www.cse.iitk.ac.in/users/braman/courses/cs625-fall2003/lec-notes/lec-notes30-1.html>
Note that there are various algorithms to impliment load balancing. In
most case, the DNS server will do a reverse DNS lookup on your IP
address, determine the approximate geographic location, and assign the
"nearest" web server to the DNS lookup for www.microsoft.com.

Note that DNS redirection is NOT required to perform load balancing.
It can be done by the router:
<http://www.cisco.com/en/US/tech/tk365/technologies_tech_note09186a0080094820.shtml>

How DNS works:
<http://www.howstuffworks.com/dns.htm>
<http://www.faqs.org/docs/linux_network/x-087-2-resolv.howdnsworks.html>
<http://technet2.microsoft.com/windowsserver/en/library/19a63021-cc53-4ded-a7a3-abaf82e7fb7c1033.mspx?mfr=true>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Guy Macon · Guest

Kris Krieger wrote:

(Example domains changed to example.com)

[quote]If you bought (registered) http://www.example.com, IIRC someone else could
buy http://example.com.
[/quote]
Not true. You cannot *register* www.example.com at all. You can
have a web page at www.example.com only if the person who registered
example.com allows you to do so. In the case of .co.uk, all
such subdomains are for sale, but this is not the case with most
..com doamains.

Here is how it works:

The Root of the domain name system is owned and controlled by ICANN
-- the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers.

..com is a top level domain which ICANN has assigned to a sponsoring
organization known as a TLD Registry to administer and control.
In the case of .com that would be VeriSign.

Verisign has assigned the right to sell second level domains under
..com to hundreds of Domain Name Registrars. The Registrar is where
you, the end user, go to register a domain name -- or in some cases
you go through additional layers of resellers. When I registered
guymacon.com I obtained the rights to www.guymacon.com,
ftp.guymacon.com, mail.guymacon.com, etc. I can put each of
those on a different server if I choose.

Registrars charge an annual fee for delegating a domain name to
a user and (usually) setting up a record in a name server.
Although this is often called "selling" the domain name and
the registrant is called an "owner," no such legal relationship
actually exists. The correct term is "registrant" or (less
commonly) "domain holder".

[quote]I>ve seen taht happen, in that there are times I
forgot to type in the "www", and got a completely different website from
what I>d get by including the "www". Often, the website result will be
the same, but not always. ((I had that happen the other day, but now I
can>t remember what I was looking for, so can>t offer the example,
sorry.))
[/quote]
These are configuration choices made at the server level.
The server can serve up a webpage at example.com and give
an error at www.example.com, or it can serve up a webpage
at www.example.com and give an error at example.com. or it
can serve up the same page at both, or it can serve up
different pages, or it can redirect from one to another.
It is the domain owner who makes these choices. If you
end up at different websites with and without www, he
chose to make it that way.

I have been experimenting with redirects; you can see the
results at [ http://www.guymacon.org/test1.html ] and at
[ http://www.guymacon.org/test2.html. ] Click on any link
and watch what happens to the URL in your browser window.

[quote]It>s similar in that reard to .com, .net, .org, and other suffixes - if
you register a website as www.donald.com, you own that precise name -
someone else can buy www.donald.net, www.donald.tv, www.donald.org, and
whatever other suffixes are around now.
[/quote]
This is true, which is why I registered guymacon.com, .net. and .org.
I use .org and .net for experimenting and tweaking, and .com as the
site I use to communicate with the world.

--
Guy Macon
<http://www.GuyMacon.com/>

Guy Macon · Guest

mpm wrote:

[quote]OMG, my head is going to explode!
[/quote]
Make sure to get it on video and put it on YouTube...

[quote]Can somebody simplify the above (most, if not all of it)??

microsoft.com and www.microsoft.com

Are they the same thing, or are they different?
[/quote]
Different.

[quote]Can one always take you to destination-A, and the other always to
destination-B?
[/quote]
Yes. Or to the same destination.

[quote]Can they be owned by different entities?
[/quote]
The concept of "owning" does no apply. See my other post in
this thread.

[quote]How would a DNS resolve this?
[/quote]
Read these pages, and let me know if you have any questions
after reading them.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/dns.htm

http://www.livinginternet.com/i/iw_dns.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain_Name_System

--
Guy Macon
<http://www.GuyMacon.com/>

Guy Macon · Guest

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

[quote]www.microsoft.com is a FQDN (fully qualified domain name). The three
parts shown are:
com The TLD (top level domain).
microsoft The domain.
www The server, hose, or machine.
In order to specify a FQDN, you need all three.
[/quote]
I believe that this is incorrect, but am open to the
possibility that my understanding is incorrect.

Here is my understanding:

A fully qualified domain name is any domain name that unambiguously
specifies an exact location in DNS tree. A FQDN can be at any level,
but no TLDs that are FQDNs exist. Partially qualified domain names
only specify a portion of a domain name, and further interpretation
must be done to fully identify the node.

Within DNS master files, FQDNs end with a dot, while PQDNs do not.
If the DNS master file lists [ example.com ] and [ www.example.com. ],
then www.example.com is a FQDN and example.com is a PQDN. If the
DNS master file lists [ example.com. ] then example.com is a FQDN.

--
Guy Macon
<http://www.GuyMacon.com/>

Guy Macon · Guest

mpm wrote:

[quote]So, in all liklihood, all these guys jumping around claiming they
don>t need the 'www" (for whatever benefit they see in that? - which
to me is none), are just "lucky" that their particular DNS happens to
have both URL formats (with and without www) pointing to the same
server.
[/quote]
I write my own DNS records and have cmplete control of the
nameservers for my domain. Any serious web developer will
do the same.

--
Guy Macon
<http://www.GuyMacon.com/>

Kris Krieger · Guest

Guy Macon <http://www.GuyMacon.com/> wrote in
news:U8Wdndv-kL8WhxDV4p2dnAA@giganews.com:

[quote]

Kris Krieger wrote:

(Example domains changed to example.com)

If you bought (registered) http://www.example.com, IIRC someone else
could buy http://example.com.

Not true. You cannot *register* www.example.com at all. You can
have a web page at www.example.com only if the person who registered
example.com allows you to do so. In the case of .co.uk, all
such subdomains are for sale, but this is not the case with most
.com doamains.
[/quote]
Oh, OK - sorry, ht>s how it was explained to me <oops>.

I appreciate the correct information :)

[quote]
Here is how it works:

The Root of the domain name system is owned and controlled by ICANN
-- the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers.

.com is a top level domain which ICANN has assigned to a sponsoring
organization known as a TLD Registry to administer and control.
In the case of .com that would be VeriSign.

Verisign has assigned the right to sell second level domains under
.com to hundreds of Domain Name Registrars. The Registrar is where
you, the end user, go to register a domain name -- or in some cases
you go through additional layers of resellers. When I registered
guymacon.com I obtained the rights to www.guymacon.com,
ftp.guymacon.com, mail.guymacon.com, etc. I can put each of
those on a different server if I choose.

Registrars charge an annual fee for delegating a domain name to
a user and (usually) setting up a record in a name server.
Although this is often called "selling" the domain name and
the registrant is called an "owner," no such legal relationship
actually exists. The correct term is "registrant" or (less
commonly) "domain holder".

I>ve seen taht happen, in that there are times I
forgot to type in the "www", and got a completely different website
from what I>d get by including the "www". Often, the website result
will be the same, but not always. ((I had that happen the other day,
but now I can>t remember what I was looking for, so can>t offer the
example, sorry.))

These are configuration choices made at the server level.
The server can serve up a webpage at example.com and give
an error at www.example.com, or it can serve up a webpage
at www.example.com and give an error at example.com. or it
can serve up the same page at both, or it can serve up
different pages, or it can redirect from one to another.
It is the domain owner who makes these choices. If you
end up at different websites with and without www, he
chose to make it that way.

I have been experimenting with redirects; you can see the
results at [ http://www.guymacon.org/test1.html ] and at
[ http://www.guymacon.org/test2.html. ] Click on any link
and watch what happens to the URL in your browser window.

It>s similar in that reard to .com, .net, .org, and other suffixes -
if you register a website as www.donald.com, you own that precise name
- someone else can buy www.donald.net, www.donald.tv, www.donald.org,
and whatever other suffixes are around now.

This is true, which is why I registered guymacon.com, .net. and .org.
I use .org and .net for experimenting and tweaking, and .com as the
site I use to communicate with the world.

[/quote]

Jeff Liebermann · Guest

On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 17:13:54 -0700 (PDT), mpm <mpmillard@aol.com>
wrote:

[quote]So, in all liklihood, all these guys jumping around claiming they
don>t need the 'www" (for whatever benefit they see in that? - which
to me is none), are just "lucky" that their particular DNS happens to
have both URL formats (with and without www) pointing to the same
server.
[/quote]
Well... not exactly. When you register a domain, it>s common practice
for the registrar to include CNAME or A record for www.example.com if
they are hosting the web server for that domain on their system.
Sometimes, they also CNAME or A (alias) the domain to the web server.
A quick check of the restrars that I use (1and1.com and joker.com)
both do that.

[quote]Your explaination also answers another question I had, but did ask:
And that was along the lines of subdomains, such as www.xyz.microsoft.com
[/quote]
Yep. It can get messy fast. For example, I own the 11junk.com
domain. The sub-domains of http://802.11junk.com as well as the smtp,
ftp, www, and some other sub-domains belong to me and point to all
manner of odd places. I also delegate sub-domains to friends for use
as their web space. There are also a tangle of domains pointing to
sub domains on 11junk.com. For example:
http://www.k6hju.com points to http://11junk.com/k6hju/
http://dsl.11junk.com points to http://11junk.com/jeffl/dsl/
Keeping it all straight is ummm.... complexicated.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558


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