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Jill
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 Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject: Re: Sick Black Rock |
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wafflycat wrote:
[quote]
And what is your implication, there Jill? Sour grapes?
[/quote]
No! that is your interpretation.
Just cognisant that there is a lot of income and not a lot of outgoings.
What is the money for? accumulating that amount in 2 years is a great deal
of money, but the charity aims do not seem to have any purpose for it.
If the numbers of birds which trigger donations are now 80,000 then the
coffers will be much fuller for the 2007 accounts.
I am interested in what this is to fund.
In anyone>s book, its a lot of money in a very short space of time. Whats
its being used for?
[quote]
The battery system is appalling and quite frankly, for someone who
purports to care about poultry, I am shocked at your comment "The
problem that needs to be addressed is not the battery system as such."
[/quote]
So how do you propose to feed an ever growing human population?
Realistically?
Thats the bottom line.
Putting a small percentage of birds into some gardens, at the end of their
time in the battery units is not going to change the system in any way.
They have still gone through the system, putting them outside does not take
that away.
Getting some real effort behind the breeding of old pure breeds which can
cope with the outside world and would provide some useful genetics for the
commercial world -- now THAT would be something of lasting significance. But
that costs REAL money -- lots and lots of it. without any easy payback and
without much media interest.
Just replicating them, as is happening now, is creating a diminishing
resource. Its sad. When you read some of the work that was done, and have
talked to some of the old breeders, now past, its heartbreaking to realise
just how much damage is being done nowadays in the name of fashion. The
quality does not seem to matter.
Its a complex world. There are no simple answers.
--
regards
Jill Bowis
Domestic Poultry and Waterfowl Solutions
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine Nursery
Seasonal Farm Food
http://www.kintaline.co.uk |
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wafflycat
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject: Re: Sick Black Rock |
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" Jill" <news@NOSPAMkintaline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6bo2r5F3dcn5qU1@mid.individual.net...
[quote]wafflycat wrote:
And what is your implication, there Jill? Sour grapes?
No! that is your interpretation.
Just cognisant that there is a lot of income and not a lot of outgoings.
What is the money for? accumulating that amount in 2 years is a great deal
of money, but the charity aims do not seem to have any purpose for it.
If the numbers of birds which trigger donations are now 80,000 then the
coffers will be much fuller for the 2007 accounts.
I am interested in what this is to fund.
In anyone>s book, its a lot of money in a very short space of time. Whats
its being used for?
[/quote]
My, my Jill... it>s a popular charity and of course it>s not anything like
sour grapes from you. Of course not. No, sir, of course you>re not trying to
cast aspertions. Of course not.
*plonk* |
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Jill
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject: Re: Sick Black Rock |
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wafflycat wrote:
[quote]
My, my Jill
[/quote]
So how would you feed people?
realistically?
--
regards
Jill Bowis
Domestic Poultry and Waterfowl Solutions
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine Nursery
Seasonal Farm Food
http://www.kintaline.co.uk |
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wafflycat
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject: Re: Sick Black Rock |
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" Jill" <news@NOSPAMkintaline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6bnupaF3dpvuuU1@mid.individual.net...
[quote]wafflycat wrote:
" Jill" <news@NOSPAMkintaline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6bnfdqF3chb5eU1@mid.individual.net...
Amy Blankenship wrote:
.
Probably if you could ask most of these hens, they>d prefer
continued life, despite the risks, to the alternative...
That depends on the stress factors?
A clean death is better than a lingering one.
And hens are not capable of knowing that there are the alternatives,
only the humans are.
;)
And a good job too, as over 80,000 ex-batts have been given a second
chance due to the work of the Battery Hen Welfare Trust.
well their asset register will be even more improved from the nearly £40k
they had accrued by the end of 2006, but they have not yet registered
their 2007 accounts.
[/quote]
And what is your implication, there Jill? Sour grapes?
[quote]The problem that needs to be addressed is not the battery system as such.
We DO need to make sure that inspections are fully funded and frequently
executed to make sure that only the best are operating.
What is the greater problem is the food demand of the humans.
The reason d>etre of the battery system is that to produce eggs in the
quantities required by the ever increasing and demanding population, the
free range flock could not cope.
It could not cope in the 1950>s and certainly will never cope in this
millennia.
[/quote]
The battery system is appalling and quite frankly, for someone who purports
to care about poultry, I am shocked at your comment "The problem that needs
to be addressed is not the battery system as such."
....snipped rest which included what sounded remarkably like a defence of an
abominable practice, barely hidden in a rather patronising rest of a post.
It>s not about having cheap birds in the back garden, but you come across as
not being able to see that. |
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A_ L _P
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:52 am Post subject: Re: Sick Black Rock |
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Excuse top-posting - I have left the whole post because I think it is so
important. Jill, you are going to get SO flamed for this! Thank you
for having the guts to say it.
Reluctantly I agree with everything you have said. On the basis of my
much smaller amount of experience and observation it is all too true.
Humans have out-bred the resources. Humans being resourceful have then
found work-arounds - famine relief, intensive food production etc - to
allow ourselves to keep on increasing our numbers and escalating our
demands for an ever-rising standard of "necessities". Since culling
humans is just not on except as a by-product of war, the battery chicken
system is only one of our "necessary evils" and there will be more and
more as time and ingenuity advance.
The loss of other breeds, be they plant or animal, is dangerous for our
future. This is well recognized and addressed by the seed banks of
which the most far-sighted appears to be the one in the natural deep
freeze in the north of Norway. But we cannot do that with chickens or
sheep, which leaves us vulnerable to pandemics within the dominant strains.
Jill, your plea for people to continue breeding the birds that have
particular strengths to withstand various conditions demonstrates the
value of detachment *as well as* compassion, for all keepers of animals.
It>s a hard balance to keep in real life, heart *and* head, dealing
with present misery *and* forestalling errors-in-waiting.
A L P
Jill wrote:
[quote]wafflycat wrote:
And a good job too, as over 80,000 ex-batts have been given a second
chance due to the work of the Battery Hen Welfare Trust.
well their asset register will be even more improved from the nearly
£40k they had accrued by the end of 2006, but they have not yet
registered their 2007 accounts.
The problem that needs to be addressed is not the battery system as
such. We DO need to make sure that inspections are fully funded and
frequently executed to make sure that only the best are operating.
What is the greater problem is the food demand of the humans.
The reason d>etre of the battery system is that to produce eggs in the
quantities required by the ever increasing and demanding population, the
free range flock could not cope.
It could not cope in the 1950>s and certainly will never cope in this
millennia.
Battery systems occured before the turn of the previous millennia, their
advantages and their problems were already known.
As the population of humans increased so did the demand for food. Food
like eggs and milk are non-negotiable, they are not something that is a
uxury -- they have to be a staple for basic good health.
The poultry industry did its best to maintain productivity and animal
health while meeting the rapidly increasing demand but it was a losing
battle. The free range flocks were getting sicker with the demands put
on them. This, in turn, lead to human health issues.
Bringing them indoors, in vast systems, allowed the intensification of
selection to take place. Millions of birds were brought indoors and the
strains were cleaned up of many of the disease vectors that damaged the
birds health and the human health. The exercise was colossal :- testing,
culling, breeding, observations, research on feed - At the same time
breeding for desirable traits - productivity and efficiency - was able
to be moved along at an amazing pace.
All of this was to answer the need for food. and food that people
could afford.
Nowadays we have a generally affluent society, but we are not all so
lucky. Food still needs to be affordable for even the least fortunate.
More importantly we now have even more and more humans. The volume of
demand for a basic product like eggs is quite staggering.
The industry does its best to supply, but here in the UK we started
importing eggs in the mid 1800>s and we import millions each year now.
There are 41 million birds [or more] inside producing eggs for the
humans of the UK at any one time.
These birds are athletes - precision genetics for the role they play in
our lives.
As long as the unit is well run, they are given a stable environment,
where there is no consideration of heat, cold, snow, rain, wind, wild
birds passing on disease, predators, variations in food, winter,
bullying from other birds, and all the rest that our ranging birds have
to take on and survive. This allows the birds to concentrate their
resources on one thing --- laying eggs.
The cage system maintains a status quo between the birds, allows for the
best feed input and the cleanest egg output.
Eggs are no longer the dangerous food they once were [and I mean well
before ms Edwina!], they are a clean, safe, easy and readily available
food, as they should be.
A well run system has low veterinary input - - these are unwelcome costs.
I completely endorse very stringent checking and lots of constant
training for the people in charge of these units. I know the system can
be abused. But not all units are. They should not all be condemned.
As to having all birds outside
-- its a far more challenging environment - for the birds and their
health and to protect human health.
-- we simply do not have enough suitable land in this country for the
hens we would need to put outside, - its either too wet, too windy, too
built on, too poorly drained, too many predators. Global warming is
creating a far more volatile climate in the UK -- if the areas of
England that were flooded crops last summer had been free ranging birds
then millions could have been drowned. The forecasters indicate that
this is something to get used to.
-- we would need to create birds with different qualities which would
detract from productivity and food efficiency, it can be done but needs
time again to bring these features to the fore, not to put birds that
are designed to be protected, out there.
-- routine mortality is higher outside than in. I completely understand
that if you get a problem inside then the trouble will spread with much
greater efficacy and effect. But it can also be contained.
The most serious problems with H5N1 around the world have been in places
where the containment was not possible due to volume of birds outside.
-- to make economic sense free range units have to be so big that they
are not really free range at all -- they are vast barn units where only
a small proportion of the birds bother to go outside. The potential for
bullying and cannabalism is off the scale. Chickens are just like that
in numbers.
I do not think that battery units are anywhere near a perfect answer,
fewer humans would be. But, as that is not going to happen; they have to
be fed.
I am really glad that there are people who can afford to choose to buy
from small free range places, but even those people are still buying
quite a lot of battery produced eggs in all the other foods they eat.
Egg is in SO Much as a process ingredient. Its such an important item.
I am really glad that there are people exploring the potential of
growing more food themselves -- fruit, vegetables and having chickens
and ducks themselves. Particularly for the next generation who were in
danger of losing contact with the land that supports them.
I am completely realistic in understanding that this is not going to
sustain the whole population and nor should it.
Putting a few of these birds through the chaos of mixing them up with
new birds, when they have been in settled sets for 2 years; driving them
for hours around the country; handing them out to complete novices with
superficial support; and to the vagaries of the outside environment,
poor diet and all the hazards; particularly with the weakness of immune
system and conditions that the next years will bring on; collecting
monies in return; is not necessarily the most humane solution, in my
view. I respect that your view is different. All I ask is that you
respect mine. I have, and do think about this quite deeply. I help with
the aftermath on a daily basis.
If someone wants to have cheap birds from the commercial world, why not
take birds from free range units, where at least they have had a chance
to develop a decent immune system, and a little savvy about having lots
of "mates" and maybe have been outside a few times. These places also
displenish at a similar age, and are more likely to be closer to hand.
By visiting the local farmers markets and looking at eggs boxes in local
shops its possible to find places in your vicinity. One can choose
places where the flocks are smaller and so more likely to have spent
more time outside, these will be so much more robust and happy to deal
with the conditions. They are also being culled, why not re-home them?
Even better get birds who are really suited to the job you want them to
perform and encourage some of the supreme excellence in breeding that
this country was once famous for.
We are so in danger of losing all the best qualities of the birds we
once had, there are Victorian breeders spinning in their graves to see
the wastage and the dross that is being produced in their names.
[/quote] |
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A_ L _P
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:00 am Post subject: Re: Sick Black Rock |
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wafflycat wrote:
[quote]
" Jill" <news@NOSPAMkintaline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6bo2r5F3dcn5qU1@mid.individual.net...
wafflycat wrote:
And what is your implication, there Jill? Sour grapes?
No! that is your interpretation.
Just cognisant that there is a lot of income and not a lot of outgoings.
What is the money for? accumulating that amount in 2 years is a great
deal of money, but the charity aims do not seem to have any purpose
for it.
If the numbers of birds which trigger donations are now 80,000 then
the coffers will be much fuller for the 2007 accounts.
I am interested in what this is to fund.
In anyone>s book, its a lot of money in a very short space of time.
Whats its being used for?
My, my Jill... it>s a popular charity and of course it>s not anything
like sour grapes from you. Of course not. No, sir, of course you>re not
trying to cast aspertions. Of course not.
*plonk*
Plonk away, but it>s a reasonable question. Any charity that collects[/quote]
money should be prepared to be up-front about its accounts otherwise it
is not unnatural for people to wonder if there is something not quite
right. I don>t mean to assert that this particular cause is shonky -
how could I, because it seems that queries about the accounts are met
with personal attacks rather than an unemotional disclosure of the
facts. However it>s not a good look, when "plonk" and accusations about
the questioner>s motives are the only response to a reasonable request
for disclosure.
If it can>t stand up proudly as an honest cause behaving honourably
with the money it collects then what is it? A plonk-and-dodgy
organisation? The ball>s in your court, cobber. Personal abuse is no
substitute for honest answers.
A L P |
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wafflycat
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:19 am Post subject: Re: Sick Black Rock |
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"A_ L _P" <hay_hell_pea@xnet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:48570AC6.6060904@xnet.co.nz...
[quote]Excuse top-posting - I have left the whole post because I think it is so
important. Jill, you are going to get SO flamed for this! Thank you for
having the guts to say it.
Reluctantly I agree with everything you have said. On the basis of my much
smaller amount of experience and observation it is all too true.
Humans have out-bred the resources. Humans being resourceful have then
found work-arounds - famine relief, intensive food production etc - to
allow ourselves to keep on increasing our numbers and escalating our
demands for an ever-rising standard of "necessities". Since culling
humans is just not on except as a by-product of war, the battery chicken
system is only one of our "necessary evils" and there will be more and
more as time and ingenuity advance.
The loss of other breeds, be they plant or animal, is dangerous for our
future. This is well recognized and addressed by the seed banks of which
the most far-sighted appears to be the one in the natural deep freeze in
the north of Norway. But we cannot do that with chickens or sheep, which
leaves us vulnerable to pandemics within the dominant strains.
Jill, your plea for people to continue breeding the birds that have
particular strengths to withstand various conditions demonstrates the
value of detachment *as well as* compassion, for all keepers of animals.
It>s a hard balance to keep in real life, heart *and* head, dealing with
present misery *and* forestalling errors-in-waiting.
A L P
[/quote]
Jill did the straw man of, in effect, if you have ex-batts then somehow,
you>re doing down other breeds, which is crap. It>s no different to someone
having a moggie as a pet as opposed to a purebreed Siamese cat. Nor is
saving some ex-batts and not liking the battery system somehow mean that
you>re against feeding folk. If someone has ex-batts then it doesn>t mean
they don>t give a stuff about other breeds of poultry. |
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wafflycat
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Sick Black Rock |
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"A_ L _P" <hay_hell_pea@xnet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:48570CBF.7030208@xnet.co.nz...
[quote]
Plonk away, but it>s a reasonable question. Any charity that collects
money should be prepared to be up-front about its accounts otherwise it is
not unnatural for people to wonder if there is something not quite right.
I don>t mean to assert that this particular cause is shonky - how could I,
because it seems that queries about the accounts are met with personal
attacks rather than an unemotional disclosure of the facts. However it>s
not a good look, when "plonk" and accusations about the questioner>s
motives are the only response to a reasonable request for disclosure.
If it can>t stand up proudly as an honest cause behaving honourably with
the money it collects then what is it? A plonk-and-dodgy organisation?
The ball>s in your court, cobber. Personal abuse is no substitute for
honest answers.
A L P
[/quote]
Oh you>ve fallen for it - the casting aspertions. There>s nothing the BHWT
has to be ashamed off or hide. That particular bit of aspertion casting was
clearly done by Jill herself. There>s nothing in the running of that charity
that smells bad in any way shape or form. It works with farmers, not against
them. It educates the public, it rehomes, it>s helping get folk back in tune
with where their food comes from and those are all good things. It costs to
do such things and in the great scheme of things, these days, £40K is
*peanuts* Compare that to the vast sums of money organisations such as the
RSPCA (picking a biggie at random) sits on, and you>ll see why it>s peanuts.
The BHWT certainly does stand up proudly about what it does. What Jill did
was *nasty* |
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A_ L _P
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:49 am Post subject: Re: Sick Black Rock |
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wafflycat wrote:
[quote]
"A_ L _P" <hay_hell_pea@xnet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:48570CBF.7030208@xnet.co.nz...
Plonk away, but it>s a reasonable question. Any charity that collects
money should be prepared to be up-front about its accounts otherwise
it is not unnatural for people to wonder if there is something not
quite right. I don>t mean to assert that this particular cause is
shonky - how could I, because it seems that queries about the accounts
are met with personal attacks rather than an unemotional disclosure of
the facts. However it>s not a good look, when "plonk" and accusations
about the questioner>s motives are the only response to a reasonable
request for disclosure.
If it can>t stand up proudly as an honest cause behaving honourably
with the money it collects then what is it? A plonk-and-dodgy
organisation? The ball>s in your court, cobber. Personal abuse is no
substitute for honest answers.
A L P
Oh you>ve fallen for it - the casting aspertions. There>s nothing the
BHWT has to be ashamed off or hide. That particular bit of aspertion
casting was clearly done by Jill herself. There>s nothing in the running
of that charity that smells bad in any way shape or form. It works with
farmers, not against them. It educates the public, it rehomes, it>s
helping get folk back in tune with where their food comes from and those
are all good things. It costs to do such things and in the great scheme
of things, these days, £40K is *peanuts* Compare that to the vast sums
of money organisations such as the RSPCA (picking a biggie at random)
sits on, and you>ll see why it>s peanuts. The BHWT certainly does stand
up proudly about what it does. What Jill did was *nasty*
[/quote]
So why the objection to revealing the accounts, that>s the part I don>t
understand. You seemed to be really down on her for asking, whereas I
think that any organisation that receives public money has to be
completely transparent about its accounts or risk coming under
suspicion. Doesn>t matter whether it>s an animal care, famine relief or
books for disadvantaged children group, if it asks for money from the
public the obligation to produce its accounts fully and in a timely
fashion is the same.
A L P |
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A_ L _P
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: Sick Black Rock |
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wafflycat wrote:
[quote]
"A_ L _P" <hay_hell_pea@xnet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:48570AC6.6060904@xnet.co.nz...
Excuse top-posting - I have left the whole post because I think it is
so important. Jill, you are going to get SO flamed for this! Thank
you for having the guts to say it.
Reluctantly I agree with everything you have said. On the basis of my
much smaller amount of experience and observation it is all too true.
Humans have out-bred the resources. Humans being resourceful have
then found work-arounds - famine relief, intensive food production etc
- to allow ourselves to keep on increasing our numbers and escalating
our demands for an ever-rising standard of "necessities". Since
culling humans is just not on except as a by-product of war, the
battery chicken system is only one of our "necessary evils" and there
will be more and more as time and ingenuity advance.
The loss of other breeds, be they plant or animal, is dangerous for
our future. This is well recognized and addressed by the seed banks
of which the most far-sighted appears to be the one in the natural
deep freeze in the north of Norway. But we cannot do that with
chickens or sheep, which leaves us vulnerable to pandemics within the
dominant strains.
Jill, your plea for people to continue breeding the birds that have
particular strengths to withstand various conditions demonstrates the
value of detachment *as well as* compassion, for all keepers of
animals. It>s a hard balance to keep in real life, heart *and* head,
dealing with present misery *and* forestalling errors-in-waiting.
A L P
Jill did the straw man of, in effect, if you have ex-batts then somehow,
you>re doing down other breeds, which is crap. It>s no different to
someone having a moggie as a pet as opposed to a purebreed Siamese cat.
Nor is saving some ex-batts and not liking the battery system somehow
mean that you>re against feeding folk. If someone has ex-batts then it
doesn>t mean they don>t give a stuff about other breeds of poultry.
[/quote]
I don>t think she said that at all, not the way I read it anyway but
then I wasn>t feeling defensive to start with. I can see her point of
view, that some people>s energies and resources are going into what may
often be kind impulses without enough understanding to recognise that
battery birds don>t have the "know-how" or the stamina for what would to
humans seem to be the best thing: freedom. From what you said about the
way you keep yours it seems that they have a good balance of shelter and
freedom to range around. You may not have seen the down-side of what
happens when people>s compassion is greater than their understanding of
the needs of birds, and lets face it, ex-battery chooks are not the same
as barnyard birds. It>s like if you or I were whirled up like Dorothy
and dropped down in the middle of a huge expanse of goodness knows
where, no familiar sights, no idea how one is supposed to negotiate this
vast space and find the necessaries of life. I had a couple of
ex-factory chooks some years ago, poor looking things with long
toe-nails that had to be clipped before they could scratch in the deep
litter. They stood around looking bewildered, had to be placed in front
of the food and water. It didn>t take long before they had found out
about the joys of scratching and dust-bathing but until they did I hate
to think how they>d have managed if I>d just put them into a big open
pen and expected them to find their way into the house at night and find
food from a hopper - they truly didn>t have any survival skills, poor
things.
And it>s not that we can>t love and care for ex-batts and old breeds,
but Jill>s point was as I understood it the very obvious one, that few
if any of us have unlimited space and money resources. So what I think
she was on about was, why not give that love and chance of a great life
to the old breeds that as well as being fascinating and delightful - as
are IMO any chooks, but I may be prejudiced (!) - carry genes that we
may need in the future. Remember the potato famine? No, not
personally, I>m sure you aren>t THAT old! I mean, potatoes being the
one vital crop at the time in Ireland, when the virus attacked the crop
the people starved. We need genetic diversity to combat viruses and
parasites etc that may attack our present food sources including poultry
and eggs. The way to keep our options open is for people who have the
luxury of being able to put private efforts into chickens as a hobby
rather than as a commercial business, to keep and breed and improve the
strains of birds that have their own unique characteristics. This can
be one>s investment in the future... alas despite appreciating the
wisdom of this I am personally crazy about my patchwork-quilt
collection of this, that and the other - the most genetically mixed up
collection of chooks you could find in a long day>s march!
A L P |
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Jill
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: Re: Sick Black Rock |
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A_ L _P wrote:
[quote]Excuse top-posting - I have left the whole post because I think it is
so important. Jill, you are going to get SO flamed for this!
[/quote]
Why should I?
This group is called Sci Agriculture Poultry.
It should be the place to discuss and explore the various concepts in food
production involving all kinds of poultry.
We should be having an honest look at what is happening and has happened in
the past.
The breeders in the 1950>s took an impossible situation and created what was
demanded by the population
-- a low disease, high production, high efficiency food production system.
The consumer has supported this ever since.
The quickest way to stop battery units is to simply stop buying battery
eggs, yet they still consume more than 50% cage eggs.
In the shell egg market, the balance has only just crept over the 50% of
"other systems" of production.
The industry since the 50>s have worked with the, quite remarkable, genome
of the chicken to create a bird which can tolerate the conditions of
intensification and still out-perform any other method.
They have worked with behavioural genetics and physiological genetics to
closely hone and refine certain traits..
This has created an intensive bird that is very very docile and has many
other traits that make her more suitable for indoors than out.
You could not put the pure breeds or even the extensive commercial types
like Black Rocks into the cage units, they would rip each other to bits in
days.
Their qualities are different.
We need some honest and realistic thinking about how we are going to produce
eggs for the future.
Free range is far from the easy solution -
-- birds first and foremost need shelter. - from wind and rain and heat etc
-- Birds need protecting from the wild birds to prevent disease transfer -
the simple mycoplasma can cause terrible losses in bird health and
productivity.
-- birds need to be dry underfoot - and preferable with access to clean
grazing or a free draining substrate. If one is running a unit of
economically viable proportions the numbers of birds have to be pretty high.
This makes management of the flock dynamics and the field structure very
intricate.
To run an effective commercial free range unit is a very complicated and
hazardous business.
In this country we are already short of suitable land. Most of it is in
places that are, as I said, too wet, too boggy, too cold, too exposed, etc
When new applications for large free range units go into councils there are
massive objections - some are getting through and some are not.
It seems that the general population are really confused as to what they do
and don>t want.
There is plenty of information out there but much of it is emotive and
misleading.
There ARE all sorts of ideas being explored : the forestry are researching
using certain areas for production but then you will have the extreme
predator risk as well as potential conflict with biodiversity as the
underfloor flora would change significantly with the high nitrogen input.
The other option is to import more -- which seems to be one of the solutions
for much of our [UK] inputs.. this simply devolves the current population of
any responsibility for anything and they can blame others if it goes wrong.
It also means they do not have to consider the horrendous welfare issues
that are involved in their food production both for the animals and the
workers.
[quote]Since culling humans is just not on except as a by-product of war,
[/quote]
Mind you -- maybe Avian Influenza will be the chickens REVENGE !!!
If the pandemic really raises its ugly head as it could then there will be a
lot fewer folks around once its finished with us.
[quote]the battery chicken system is only one of our "necessary evils" and
there will be more and more as time and ingenuity advance.
[/quote]
There needs to be a lot of exploration about production systems. Its such a
complicated issue.
If we are to change any system then the breeders need TIME to re-tweak the
genetics of the birds as well.
Their work is astonishing when you get to read some of what has happened,
the refinements of birds, systems, feed availability.
The genome of the chicken is quite one of the most remarkable things Mother
Nature has given human kind.
[quote]
The loss of other breeds, be they plant or animal, is dangerous for
our future. This is well recognized and addressed by the seed banks
of which the most far-sighted appears to be the one in the natural deep
freeze in the north of Norway. But we cannot do that with chickens or
sheep, which leaves us vulnerable to pandemics within the dominant
strains.
[/quote]
I am delighted to hear of a few research projects that are FINALLY coming
out which are looking at some of the pure breed genetics.
I think that now the full genome of the chicken is mapped there will be much
more opportunity for research in to the qualities of the various breeds and
strains and conditions.
[quote]
Jill, your plea for people to continue breeding the birds that have
particular strengths to withstand various conditions demonstrates the
value of detachment *as well as* compassion, for all keepers of
animals. It>s a hard balance to keep in real life, heart *and* head,
dealing with present misery *and* forestalling errors-in-waiting.
[/quote]
Absolutely -- and it needs to be discussed in a practical and realistic way
so as to ensure that the birds welfare is taken into consideration properly.
Chucking them all outside is not the simple answer.
--
regards
Jill Bowis
Domestic Poultry and Waterfowl Solutions
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine Nursery
Seasonal Farm Food
http://www.kintaline.co.uk |
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wafflycat
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: Sick Black Rock |
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"A_ L _P" <hay_hell_pea@xnet.co.nz> wrote in message
news:48575E73.1050209@xnet.co.nz...
[quote]
So why the objection to revealing the accounts, that>s the part I don>t
understand. You seemed to be really down on her for asking, whereas I
think that any organisation that receives public money has to be
completely transparent about its accounts or risk coming under suspicion.
Doesn>t matter whether it>s an animal care, famine relief or books for
disadvantaged children group, if it asks for money from the public the
obligation to produce its accounts fully and in a timely fashion is the
same.
A L P
[/quote]
I see no objections from the BHWT. I see no particular tardiness that should
invite suspicion. Go to the charity commissioners web site and there>s no
problems being flagged up. Indeed, of Jill>s query of £40K, I see that for
the year ending 31 12 06, the gross expenditure was just over £44K and
expenditure was just under £34.5K, so that>s hardly sitting on a shedload
of cash doing nothing and it costs money to run a national charity and some
80,000 birds have been rehomed and in reality, in today>s 'value' the BHWT
is being run on effectively peanuts compared to the big charities. I run my
own business and am used to accounts, I see nada that should be causing any
particular worries over the BHWT.
Perhaps if Jill has a true concern about the BHWT she should be contacting
the Charity Commissioners rather than doing a clever, yet nasty, casting of
aspertions via Usenet. Indeed the annual return for the year ending 31
December 2007 *has* been issued according to the Charity Commissioners web
site. |
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Jill
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: Sick Black Rock |
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wafflycat wrote:
[quote]
Jill did the straw man of, in effect, if you have ex-batts then
somehow, you>re doing down other breeds,
[/quote]
I did not, I do believe they have more value in our future. and what is
happening at the moment is detrimental breeding.
[quote]. Nor is saving some ex-batts
[/quote]
From what?
They are only saved from the cull.
If they were taken at 18 weeks old then you might be able to use the words
"save".
Not after they have already been in the system for 2 years.
[quote]and not liking the
battery system somehow mean that you>re against feeding folk.
[/quote]
Then why not discuss the topic and offer realistic solutions, and increase
your understanding of the problems, instead of getting abusive.
--
regards
Jill Bowis
Domestic Poultry and Waterfowl Solutions
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine Nursery
Seasonal Farm Food
http://www.kintaline.co.uk |
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Jill
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: Sick Black Rock |
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wafflycat wrote:
[quote]
There>s nothing the BHWT has to be ashamed off or hide.
[/quote]
I did not suggest they had--- I was wondering what thier ASPIRATIONS were.
Few charities have the luxury of earning such large sums of profit in such a
short time.
Most struggle to fund their daily operations.
I am seriously interested in what their plans are for the large capital
asset they are accruing.
--
regards
Jill Bowis
Domestic Poultry and Waterfowl Solutions
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine Nursery
Seasonal Farm Food
http://www.kintaline.co.uk |
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Jill
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: Sick Black Rock |
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A_ L _P wrote:
[quote]
And it>s not that we can>t love and care for ex-batts and old breeds,
but Jill>s point was as I understood it the very obvious one, that few
if any of us have unlimited space and money resources.
[/quote]
Indeed.
And part of my experience is that many novices are being given very little
helpful information about what their birds are going to need.
The ideas they are left with have meant that many have had some serious
problems with their birds.
Or have unrealistic expectations as to how they can keep their birds in the
domestic situation.
So I have serious and genuine fears about the welfare of many birds in
gardens around the country.
Its what I spend my days working at - helping people to provide practical
solutions for their birds in theparticular environment they have.
[quote]The way to keep our
options open is for people who have the luxury of being able to put
private efforts into chickens as a hobby rather than as a commercial
business, to keep and breed and improve the strains of birds that
have their own unique characteristics. This can be one>s investment
in the future.
[/quote]
Hear! Hear!
... alas despite appreciating the wisdom of this I am
[quote]personally crazy about my patchwork-quilt collection of this, that
and the other - the most genetically mixed up collection of chooks
you could find in a long day>s march!
[/quote]
LOL
--
regards
Jill Bowis
Domestic Poultry and Waterfowl Solutions
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine Nursery
Seasonal Farm Food
http://www.kintaline.co.uk |
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