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DB · Guest

Rob Dekker wrote:

[quote]Check this out, for the amounts of oil avaiable anywhere. Not just the US
coasts.
http://www.energywatchgroup.org/fileadmin/global/pdf/EWG_Oilreport_10-2007.p
df

Then realize that drilling a few billion barrels spread out over a few years
is hardly going to change anything.
It just postpones the inevitable : that the end of large volume of (cheap)
oil is here.
That we need to remove the stuff from our dayly addiction pattern pronto, or
make very costly changes (like wrecking our economy) very soon.
[/quote]
Gee Rob, when do we start????

Do you not get that the masses are whistling through the graveyard????

Sevenhundred Elves · Guest

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 23:31:34 -0700, "Rob Dekker" <rob@verific.com>
wrote:

[quote]
"George Cornelius" <STXgcornelius@charter.netETX> wrote in message
news:487D8C30.104@charter.netETX...
Paul Ciszek wrote:
In article <37jk7458kn1cfogagjkif83ie0agg9r4tp@4ax.com>,
Anthony Ferrante <ferrante276-ngspam@yahoo.com> wrote:

I have been told by friends that the USA has vast amounts of oil
underground but the government keeps blocking all attempts to get at
it. Is this true and if so, why the opposition to getting it?

There are two great political pandering operations going on. One is to
pander to the corn belt by subsidizing ethanol. The other is to pander to
the coastal states by blocking oil exploration on either the Pacific or
the Atlantic seaboard. ANWR is a special case, but is banned for similar
reasons to the coastal bans.

If you want to be elected in this country, you do what is politically
necessary.

You have just heard, with a single exception, the massive political
chorus that has just been orchestrated to preserve the status quo:
no drilling.

The reality is this: from a U.S. perspective, there is a _lot_ of oil
in those two places. ANWR in itself is a certain percentage of U.S.
production. California would further increase production. Florida>s
eastern seaboard would increase production. And so on.

Check this out, for the amounts of oil avaiable anywhere. Not just the US
coasts.
http://www.energywatchgroup.org/fileadmin/global/pdf/EWG_Oilreport_10-2007.p
df

Then realize that drilling a few billion barrels spread out over a few years
is hardly going to change anything.
It just postpones the inevitable : that the end of large volume of (cheap)
oil is here.
That we need to remove the stuff from our dayly addiction pattern pronto, or
make very costly changes (like wrecking our economy) very soon.

Rob
[/quote]
I just read that EWG oil report pdf. The findings reported (peak oil
is now, nothing much we can do about it) are not surprising to me.

However, they also say the following:

'Institutions close to the energy industry, like CERA, are engaging in
a campaign to "debunk" the "peak oil theory"'

It>s not the first time I have heard this or similar claims. And I
have no reason to doubt it. But now that I>m starting to think about
it, I find I>m quite naïve when it comes to big business. I don>t
understand _why_ the energy industry is lying about peak oil. What do
they stand to gain from having people believe that there will be lots
of oil available for the future?

Someone please explain. Why do "institutions close to the energy
industry" see a need to debunk the "peak oil theory". I>d really like
to understand it.

Thanks,
S.

Sevenhundred Elves · Guest

On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 04:45:08 +0200, Sevenhundred Elves
<sevenhundred@elves.invalid> wrote:

[quote]On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 23:31:34 -0700, "Rob Dekker" <rob@verific.com
wrote:

"George Cornelius" <STXgcornelius@charter.netETX> wrote in message
news:487D8C30.104@charter.netETX...
Paul Ciszek wrote:
In article <37jk7458kn1cfogagjkif83ie0agg9r4tp@4ax.com>,
Anthony Ferrante <ferrante276-ngspam@yahoo.com> wrote:

I have been told by friends that the USA has vast amounts of oil
underground but the government keeps blocking all attempts to get at
it. Is this true and if so, why the opposition to getting it?

There are two great political pandering operations going on. One is to
pander to the corn belt by subsidizing ethanol. The other is to pander to
the coastal states by blocking oil exploration on either the Pacific or
the Atlantic seaboard. ANWR is a special case, but is banned for similar
reasons to the coastal bans.

If you want to be elected in this country, you do what is politically
necessary.

You have just heard, with a single exception, the massive political
chorus that has just been orchestrated to preserve the status quo:
no drilling.

The reality is this: from a U.S. perspective, there is a _lot_ of oil
in those two places. ANWR in itself is a certain percentage of U.S.
production. California would further increase production. Florida>s
eastern seaboard would increase production. And so on.

Check this out, for the amounts of oil avaiable anywhere. Not just the US
coasts.
http://www.energywatchgroup.org/fileadmin/global/pdf/EWG_Oilreport_10-2007.p
df

Then realize that drilling a few billion barrels spread out over a few years
is hardly going to change anything.
It just postpones the inevitable : that the end of large volume of (cheap)
oil is here.
That we need to remove the stuff from our dayly addiction pattern pronto, or
make very costly changes (like wrecking our economy) very soon.

Rob

I just read that EWG oil report pdf. The findings reported (peak oil
is now, nothing much we can do about it) are not surprising to me.

However, they also say the following:

'Institutions close to the energy industry, like CERA, are engaging in
a campaign to "debunk" the "peak oil theory"'

It>s not the first time I have heard this or similar claims. And I
have no reason to doubt it. But now that I>m starting to think about
it, I find I>m quite naïve when it comes to big business. I don>t
understand _why_ the energy industry is lying about peak oil. What do
they stand to gain from having people believe that there will be lots
of oil available for the future?

Someone please explain. Why do "institutions close to the energy
industry" see a need to debunk the "peak oil theory". I>d really like
to understand it.

Thanks,
S.
[/quote]
Never mind. I found the answer on the web,
http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/ . It sounds plausible enough:

"An oil company>s share value is dictated first and foremost not by
the price of oil but by how much oil that company reports having in
reserve. A company can>t admit its reserves are now in decline or it
risks seeing its share price drop relative to other companies who
report more abundant reserves."

Simple, really. But like I said, I>m a bit naïve.

S.

Uncle Ben · Guest

On Jul 19, 2:31 am, "Rob Dekker" <r...@verific.com> wrote:
[quote]"George Cornelius" <STXgcornel...@charter.netETX> wrote in message

news:487D8C30.104@charter.netETX...

Paul Ciszek wrote:
In article <37jk7458kn1cfogagjkif83ie0agg9r...@4ax.com>,
Anthony Ferrante <ferrante276-ngs...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I have been told by friends that the USA has vast amounts of oil
underground but the government keeps blocking all attempts to get at
it. Is this true and if so, why the opposition to getting it?

There are two great political pandering operations going on. One is to
pander to the corn belt by subsidizing ethanol. The other is to pander to
the coastal states by blocking oil exploration on either the Pacific or
the Atlantic seaboard. ANWR is a special case, but is banned for similar
reasons to the coastal bans.

If you want to be elected in this country, you do what is politically
necessary.

You have just heard, with a single exception, the massive political
chorus that has just been orchestrated to preserve the status quo:
no drilling.

The reality is this: from a U.S. perspective, there is a _lot_ of oil
in those two places. ANWR in itself is a certain percentage of U.S.
production. California would further increase production. Florida>s
eastern seaboard would increase production. And so on.

Check this out, for the amounts of oil avaiable anywhere. Not just the US
coasts.http://www.energywatchgroup.org/fileadmin/global/pdf/EWG_Oilreport_10...
df

Then realize that drilling a few billion barrels spread out over a few years
is hardly going to change anything.
It just postpones the inevitable : that the end of large volume of (cheap)
oil is here.
That we need to remove the stuff from our dayly addiction pattern pronto, or
make very costly changes (like wrecking our economy) very soon.

Rob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
[/quote]
Not to mention that there is a grave shortage of the highly skilled
labor that it takes to drill an oil well.

Ben

DB · Guest

Sevenhundred Elves wrote:
[quote]On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 23:31:34 -0700, "Rob Dekker" <rob@verific.com
wrote:

http://www.energywatchgroup.org/fileadmin/global/pdf/EWG_Oilreport_10-2007.p
df

I just read that EWG oil report pdf. The findings reported (peak oil
is now, nothing much we can do about it) are not surprising to me.

However, they also say the following:

'Institutions close to the energy industry, like CERA, are engaging in
a campaign to "debunk" the "peak oil theory"'
[/quote]
Your following post could be one reason. It is also said that CERA says
what they do so as to postpone the nationalization of fields that are
still run by the likes of Exxon.

http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/11/15/83857/186

What is clear is that CERA is disinformation institution. They really
have little creditability from anyone that has seriously looked at the
numbers.

Best, Dan.

Sevenhundred Elves · Guest

On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:36:43 -0700, DB <abc@some.net> wrote:

[quote]Sevenhundred Elves wrote:
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 23:31:34 -0700, "Rob Dekker" <rob@verific.com
wrote:

http://www.energywatchgroup.org/fileadmin/global/pdf/EWG_Oilreport_10-2007.p
df

I just read that EWG oil report pdf. The findings reported (peak oil
is now, nothing much we can do about it) are not surprising to me.

However, they also say the following:

'Institutions close to the energy industry, like CERA, are engaging in
a campaign to "debunk" the "peak oil theory"'

Your following post could be one reason. It is also said that CERA says
what they do so as to postpone the nationalization of fields that are
still run by the likes of Exxon.

http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/11/15/83857/186

What is clear is that CERA is disinformation institution. They really
have little creditability from anyone that has seriously looked at the
numbers.

Best, Dan.
[/quote]
The owners of CERA, IHS Inc, actually say on their home page that they
"deliver data and expertise that enable innovative and successful
decision-making". Wouldn>t surprise me if they can provide innovative
experts, that will innovate whatever data you can pay for. Well, at
least they don>t say that they deal in verifiable facts.

Thanks for providing the link to the article debunking CERA>s wild
claims. We can all learn something from that article, for instance
that it is possible to debunk pseudoscience in a cordial, or at least
not insulting, fashion.

S.

DB · Guest

Rob Dekker wrote:
[quote]"DB" <abc@some.net> wrote in message news:1Pggk.7391$Jp6.7364@fe107.usenetserver.com...
Rob Dekker wrote:

Check this out, for the amounts of oil avaiable anywhere. Not just the US
coasts.
http://www.energywatchgroup.org/fileadmin/global/pdf/EWG_Oilreport_10-2007.p
df

Then realize that drilling a few billion barrels spread out over a few years
is hardly going to change anything.
It just postpones the inevitable : that the end of large volume of (cheap)
oil is here.
That we need to remove the stuff from our dayly addiction pattern pronto, or
make very costly changes (like wrecking our economy) very soon.
Gee Rob, when do we start????

Do you not get that the masses are whistling through the graveyard????

More reason to stop whining and start working.
[/quote]
When do we start? Thirty years ago???? Stawman to claim 'whining'.

[quote]Here is something to brighten your day :
Israel has set the trend : They committed to become oil independent by going electric for vehicles in 10 years.
http://www.projectbetterplace.com/project-better-place
[/quote]
I>ve seen such postering in the past. It does not make a reality.

[quote]Al Gore presented a vision in the same direction, asking us to commit to shed fossil fuels in 10 years too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt9wZloG97U
[/quote]
So what? Visions kill folks.... How about the real world? Will you be
raptured?

[quote]Peak Oil, Global Warming, Economic decline : All arrows point in the same solution : electric cars and renewable electric energy
generation.
[/quote]
Solution? When do we start? Have you even read the Hirsch report?

[quote]We have the vision, we have a common goal, we have the technology, now we need strong political will, and get to work !
[/quote]
Show me the mouse in your pocket. I don>t see any fixing our condition
that have anything to do with the real numbers.

[quote]Rob
[/quote]
When you are ready to talk real numbers....

Best, Dan.

Rob Dekker · Guest

"DB" <abc@some.net> wrote in message news:1Pggk.7391$Jp6.7364@fe107.usenetserver.com...
[quote]Rob Dekker wrote:

Check this out, for the amounts of oil avaiable anywhere. Not just the US
coasts.
http://www.energywatchgroup.org/fileadmin/global/pdf/EWG_Oilreport_10-2007.p
df

Then realize that drilling a few billion barrels spread out over a few years
is hardly going to change anything.
It just postpones the inevitable : that the end of large volume of (cheap)
oil is here.
That we need to remove the stuff from our dayly addiction pattern pronto, or
make very costly changes (like wrecking our economy) very soon.

Gee Rob, when do we start????

Do you not get that the masses are whistling through the graveyard????
[/quote]
More reason to stop whining and start working.

Here is something to brighten your day :
Israel has set the trend : They committed to become oil independent by going electric for vehicles in 10 years.
http://www.projectbetterplace.com/project-better-place

Al Gore presented a vision in the same direction, asking us to commit to shed fossil fuels in 10 years too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt9wZloG97U

Peak Oil, Global Warming, Economic decline : All arrows point in the same solution : electric cars and renewable electric energy
generation.
We have the vision, we have a common goal, we have the technology, now we need strong political will, and get to work !

Rob

PiAreNotSquare · Guest

On Jul 20, 10:31 pm, "Rob Dekker" <r...@verific.com> wrote:
[quote]"DB" <a...@some.net> wrote in messagenews:1Pggk.7391$Jp6.7364@fe107.usenetserver.com...
Rob Dekker wrote:

Check this out, for the amounts of oil avaiable anywhere. Not just the US
coasts.
http://www.energywatchgroup.org/fileadmin/global/pdf/EWG_Oilreport_10....
df

Then realize that drilling a few billion barrels spread out over a few years
is hardly going to change anything.
It just postpones the inevitable : that the end of large volume of (cheap)
oil is here.
That we need to remove the stuff from our dayly addiction pattern pronto, or
make very costly changes (like wrecking our economy) very soon.

Gee Rob, when do we start????

Do you not get that the masses are whistling through the graveyard????

More reason to stop whining and start working.

Here is something to brighten your day :
Israel has set the trend : They committed to become oil independent by going electric for vehicles in 10 years.http://www.projectbetterplace.com/project-better-place

AlGorepresented a vision in the same direction, asking us to commit to shed fossil fuels in 10 years too.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt9wZloG97U

Peak Oil, Global Warming, Economic decline : All arrows point in the same solution : electric cars andrenewableelectric energy
generation.
We have the vision, we have a common goal, we have the technology, now we need strong political will, and get to work !

Rob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
[/quote]
Nope. We do not have the technology.

Rob Dekker · Guest

"PiAreNotSquare" <bamberbert@gmail.com> wrote in message news:edac1867-7890-4677-ad58-552952d92c0f@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 20, 10:31 pm, "Rob Dekker" <r...@verific.com> wrote:
.....
[quote]Peak Oil, Global Warming, Economic decline : All arrows point in the same solution : electric cars andrenewableelectric energy
generation.
We have the vision, we have a common goal, we have the technology, now we need strong political will, and get to work !

Rob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Nope. We do not have the technology.
[/quote]
In Jan 1961, the US "did not have" the technology to put a man on the moon.
Heck, we did not even put a man in space yet.

Rob

Rob Dekker · Guest

"DB" <abc@some.net> wrote in message news:73Wgk.144$eg.123@fe119.usenetserver.com...
[quote]Rob Dekker wrote:
"DB" <abc@some.net> wrote in message news:1Pggk.7391$Jp6.7364@fe107.usenetserver.com...
Rob Dekker wrote:

Check this out, for the amounts of oil avaiable anywhere. Not just the US
coasts.
http://www.energywatchgroup.org/fileadmin/global/pdf/EWG_Oilreport_10-2007.p
df

Then realize that drilling a few billion barrels spread out over a few years
is hardly going to change anything.
It just postpones the inevitable : that the end of large volume of (cheap)
oil is here.
That we need to remove the stuff from our dayly addiction pattern pronto, or
make very costly changes (like wrecking our economy) very soon.
Gee Rob, when do we start????

Do you not get that the masses are whistling through the graveyard????

More reason to stop whining and start working.

When do we start? Thirty years ago???? Stawman to claim 'whining'.

Here is something to brighten your day :
Israel has set the trend : They committed to become oil independent by going electric for vehicles in 10 years.
http://www.projectbetterplace.com/project-better-place

I>ve seen such postering in the past. It does not make a reality.

Al Gore presented a vision in the same direction, asking us to commit to shed fossil fuels in 10 years too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt9wZloG97U

So what? Visions kill folks.... How about the real world? Will you be raptured?

Peak Oil, Global Warming, Economic decline : All arrows point in the same solution : electric cars and renewable electric energy
generation.

Solution? When do we start? Have you even read the Hirsch report?

We have the vision, we have a common goal, we have the technology, now we need strong political will, and get to work !

Show me the mouse in your pocket. I don>t see any fixing our condition that have anything to do with the real numbers.

Rob

When you are ready to talk real numbers....

Best, Dan.
[/quote]
We discussed many numbers in the past, and we seem to agree that finding new supply of liquid fuels in any form (drilling, biofuels
etc) is not going to help enough.
But I>d be happy to discuss number about moving liquid fuels (especially ground transportation) to electricity.
What (numbers) does it take for you to see any solution out of the Peak Oil challenge ?

Rob

Rod Speed · Guest

Rob Dekker <rob@verific.com> wrote:
[quote]"beavith" <beavith1@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:fnpa84tea05jdmrqbshcmjfcotms0nfplg@4ax.com...
...
But I>d be happy to discuss number about moving liquid fuels
(especially
ground transportation) to electricity.
What (numbers) does it take for you to see any solution out of the
Peak Oil challenge ?

Rob

Peak Oil is a fallacy. As the price goes up, more supply becomes
economical to mine.

That is a rather naive view, considering that oil supplies are limited.
[/quote]
Not in any practical sense when you include the stuff that can be turned into oil
when the price is high enough to justify that with oil sands, shale oil and even coal.

[quote]We currently consume 15 billion barrels per year MORE than what we discover per year.
[/quote]
Only if you ignore all the stuff that isnt currently turned into oil much.

[quote]The fly in the ointment is how politics gets mixed in to screw everythingelse up.

What do you mean with that ?[/quote]

Rob Dekker · Guest

"beavith" <beavith1@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:fnpa84tea05jdmrqbshcmjfcotms0nfplg@4ax.com...
....
[quote]But I>d be happy to discuss number about moving liquid fuels (especially
ground transportation) to electricity.
What (numbers) does it take for you to see any solution out of the Peak
Oil challenge ?

Rob

Peak Oil is a fallacy. As the price goes up, more supply becomes
economical to mine.

[/quote]
That is a rather naive view, considering that oil supplies are limited.
We currently consume 15 billion barrels per year MORE than what we discover
per year.

[quote]The fly in the ointment is how politics gets mixed in to screw
everythingelse up.
[/quote]
What do you mean with that ?

beavith · Guest

<snip>
[quote]
We discussed many numbers in the past, and we seem to agree that finding new supply of liquid fuels in any form (drilling, biofuels
etc) is not going to help enough.
But I>d be happy to discuss number about moving liquid fuels (especially ground transportation) to electricity.
What (numbers) does it take for you to see any solution out of the Peak Oil challenge ?

Rob

Peak Oil is a fallacy. As the price goes up, more supply becomes[/quote]
economical to mine.

The fly in the ointment is how politics gets mixed in to screw
everythingelse up.

Rob Dekker · Guest

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6eleccF7jts2U1@mid.individual.net...
....
[quote]Peak Oil is a fallacy. As the price goes up, more supply becomes
economical to mine.

That is a rather naive view, considering that oil supplies are limited.

Not in any practical sense when you include the stuff that can be turned
into oil
when the price is high enough to justify that with oil sands, shale oil
and even coal.[/quote]

I wish you were correct.
Unfortunately, use of oil shale and tar sands and coal (CTL) could only
reduce the RATE of decline of available liquid fuels. I am starting to sound
like Dan now, but please read the Hirsch report, or the EWG report :

http://www.energywatchgroup.org/fileadmin/global/pdf/EWG_Oilreport_10-2007.p
df
http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications/others/pdf/Oil_Peaking_NETL.pdf

There is no easy way out of this.

We need significant help both on supply AND demand side to get through this
period without wrecking our economies and our planet>s eco systems.

Demand side is the most flexible : what we do not improve in efficiency we
will give have to give up in driving/flying less. The latter obviously at
the cost of economy and life style.

Rob


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