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Osmium · Guest

On Jul 7, 8:20ï¿½pm, "Geopelia" <phildo...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
[quote]"Rushtown" <Rusht...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:9634be60-2a8a-4b2f-bd67-b2baf1c2a492@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...

When the jungles in Africa thinned out and more Savannah appeared, our
hominid ancestors had to hunt, and travel in open spaces. ï¿½One useful
adaptation was bipedalism---so we could travel long distances and free
our hands for carrying meat back to camp and for throwing rocks at
prey.

But why did we start talking? ï¿½Observe how a young child acquires
speech. ï¿½And one stage a child will point at everything he sees and
name it.
I believe this replicates a stage in human development when it was
helpful for one member of a band of hunters to point out landmarks and
dangers in order to contributed to group success. ï¿½Because the members
of the hunting group were genetically related this benefitted the
hominid who did the pointing out and his (and their) genes were passed
on.

Gradually there were improvements in speech, just as there are with
that of a young child. ï¿½First adjectives are added, then verbs. ï¿½Much
later a past tense (which the Cro Magnons had and the Neandertals did
not.)

Adults may be teaching a child to point. Mother says "Look at that
(whatever)" and points to it. When the child does the same, naming something
and pointing to it, he is praised for being such a clever boy.
It>s in the child>s interests to point and name. ï¿½Perhaps it is a learned
behaviour, not an natural one for that stage of development.

Geopelia- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
[/quote]
Did you ever notice that you only have to point out something once and
the child remembers the name?
It may be learned. But my basic premise was that if a group of
hominids with the mentality of a modern three year old were to point
out things to each other as they hunted it would aid them in finding
their way home later and in finding food later.
It is easy to make up what are refered to in anthropology as "just so"
stories (after Kipling).
Any behavior can be described as evolutionarily adaptive and so
inherited, ie genetic.

Antares 531 · Guest

On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 17:50:55 -0700 (PDT), Osmium <Rushtown@aol.com>
wrote:

[quote]On Jul 7, 8:20?pm, "Geopelia" <phildo...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
"Rushtown" <Rusht...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:9634be60-2a8a-4b2f-bd67-b2baf1c2a492@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...

(snip)

Adults may be teaching a child to point. Mother says "Look at that
(whatever)" and points to it. When the child does the same, naming something
and pointing to it, he is praised for being such a clever boy.
It>s in the child>s interests to point and name. ?Perhaps it is a learned
behaviour, not an natural one for that stage of development.

Geopelia- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Did you ever notice that you only have to point out something once and
the child remembers the name?
It may be learned. But my basic premise was that if a group of
hominids with the mentality of a modern three year old were to point
out things to each other as they hunted it would aid them in finding
their way home later and in finding food later.
It is easy to make up what are refered to in anthropology as "just so"
stories (after Kipling).
Any behavior can be described as evolutionarily adaptive and so
inherited, ie genetic.

The core question is, why did this complex speech capability show up[/quote]
only in homo sapiens sapiens and in no other primates? This has
something to do with a mutation on the FOXP2 gene on chromosome 7, but
why did Darwinian natural selection not develop this in any other
creatures? Gordon

DK · Guest

In article <32e75d03-ff21-42e0-9be9-38a4c818611f@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, Osmium <Rushtown@aol.com> wrote:

[quote]Hominid points at a bear and goes "Urghh" or "Barrgh" imitating the
sound. Nouns are invented.
[/quote]
Umm, what>s Chinese sound for "bear"?

What kind of sound was imitated when a noun for a sun was invented?

DK

Occidental · Guest

On Jul 8, 3:27 pm, Osmium <Rusht...@aol.com> wrote:
[quote]On Jul 7, 4:05ï¿½pm, Occidental <Occiden...@comcast.net> wrote:

On Jul 7, 11:16 am, Rushtown <Rusht...@aol.com> wrote:

When the jungles in Africa thinned out and more Savannah appeared, our
hominid ancestors had to hunt, and travel in open spaces. ï¿½One useful
adaptation was bipedalism---so we could travel long distances and free
our hands for carrying meat back to camp and for throwing rocks at
prey.

But why did we start talking? ï¿½Observe how a young child acquires
speech. ï¿½And one stage a child will point at everything he sees and
name it.
I believe this replicates a stage in human development when it was
helpful for one member of a band of hunters to point out landmarks and
dangers in order to contributed to group success. ï¿½Because the members
of the hunting group were genetically related this benefitted the
hominid who did the pointing out and his (and their) genes were passed
on.

Gradually there were improvements in speech

...wait a minute, you>ve gone from pointing to speech without saying
where speech came from, as though vocalization were an inevitable
consequence of pointing, which it isn>t. There has to be some
rudimentary kind of speech before there can be "improvements".

just as there are with
that of a young child. ï¿½First adjectives are added, then verbs.

Wot, no nouns? And what happened to adverbs?

Much
later a past tense (which the Cro Magnons had and the Neandertals did
not.)

Because they had no past worth talking about?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hominid points at a bear and goes "Urghh" or "Barrgh" imitating the
sound.
[/quote]
If he is pointing, he has no need to imitate the sound the animal
makes. In any case, going "Urghh" or "Barrgh" in the presence of a
bear is, shall we say, somewhat dangerous (in the event that the sound
is a warning) or stoopid (in the event that the bear is prey).

[quote]Nouns are invented.
Later hominids change "Urghh" to "Ursus" and "Bargh" to "Bear". Next
step---add adjectives to designate Black or Brown bear.
[/quote]
What sound do you make to imitate the quality "Black"?

[quote]Step after
that add verb to describe "attacking bear". (or maybe this is the
adverb you wanted). Last step add tense to indicate you saw a bear
here yesterday, so keep an eye out. Get it?[/quote]

Occidental · Guest

On Jul 8, 8:50 pm, Osmium <Rusht...@aol.com> wrote:
[quote]On Jul 7, 8:20ï¿½pm, "Geopelia" <phildo...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

"Rushtown" <Rusht...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:9634be60-2a8a-4b2f-bd67-b2baf1c2a492@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...

When the jungles in Africa thinned out and more Savannah appeared, our
hominid ancestors had to hunt, and travel in open spaces. ï¿½One useful
adaptation was bipedalism---so we could travel long distances and free
our hands for carrying meat back to camp and for throwing rocks at
prey.

But why did we start talking? ï¿½Observe how a young child acquires
speech. ï¿½And one stage a child will point at everything he sees and
name it.
I believe this replicates a stage in human development when it was
helpful for one member of a band of hunters to point out landmarks and
dangers in order to contributed to group success. ï¿½Because the members
of the hunting group were genetically related this benefitted the
hominid who did the pointing out and his (and their) genes were passed
on.

Gradually there were improvements in speech, just as there are with
that of a young child. ï¿½First adjectives are added, then verbs. ï¿½Much
later a past tense (which the Cro Magnons had and the Neandertals did
not.)

Adults may be teaching a child to point. Mother says "Look at that
(whatever)" and points to it. When the child does the same, naming something
and pointing to it, he is praised for being such a clever boy.
It>s in the child>s interests to point and name. ï¿½Perhaps it is a learned
behaviour, not an natural one for that stage of development.

Geopelia- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Did you ever notice that you only have to point out something once and
the child remembers the name?
It may be learned. But my basic premise was that if a group of
hominids with the mentality of a modern three year old were to point
out things to each other as they hunted it would aid them in finding
their way home later and in finding food later.
It is easy to make up what are refered to in anthropology as "just so"
stories (after Kipling).
Any behavior can be described as evolutionarily adaptive and so
inherited, ie genetic.
[/quote]
Including celibacy, suicide?

Occidental · Guest

[quote]Geopelia wrote:
It used to be thought that parrots talking didn>t understand what they were saying.
But experiments with Alex, an African Grey, did show that sometimes they could understand
what some words mean. If an ape isn>t capable of forming the actual sounds of human
speech how could it develop language?
[/quote]

On Jul 9, 6:10 pm, Sanforized <sanfori...@naol.con> wrote:
[quote]The same way that singing wales have.
[/quote]
Like this?
http://bethnesaf.org/CymruLandOfSong.html

Geopelia · Guest

"Antares 531" <gordonlrDELETE@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:8n4874pdkke4fak4nap8m3eaqdukkq3p7j@4ax.com...
[quote]On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 17:50:55 -0700 (PDT), Osmium <Rushtown@aol.com
wrote:

On Jul 7, 8:20?pm, "Geopelia" <phildo...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
"Rushtown" <Rusht...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:9634be60-2a8a-4b2f-bd67-b2baf1c2a492@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...

(snip)

Adults may be teaching a child to point. Mother says "Look at that
(whatever)" and points to it. When the child does the same, naming
something
and pointing to it, he is praised for being such a clever boy.
It>s in the child>s interests to point and name. ?Perhaps it is a
learned
behaviour, not an natural one for that stage of development.

Geopelia- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Did you ever notice that you only have to point out something once and
the child remembers the name?
It may be learned. But my basic premise was that if a group of
hominids with the mentality of a modern three year old were to point
out things to each other as they hunted it would aid them in finding
their way home later and in finding food later.
It is easy to make up what are refered to in anthropology as "just so"
stories (after Kipling).
Any behavior can be described as evolutionarily adaptive and so
inherited, ie genetic.

The core question is, why did this complex speech capability show up
only in homo sapiens sapiens and in no other primates? This has
something to do with a mutation on the FOXP2 gene on chromosome 7, but
why did Darwinian natural selection not develop this in any other
creatures? Gordon
[/quote]
It used to be thought that parrots talking didn>t understand what they were
saying. But experiments with Alex, an African Grey, did show that sometimes
they could understand what some words mean.

If an ape isn>t capable of forming the actual sounds of human speech how
could it develop language?

Sanforized · Guest

Geopelia wrote:

[quote]"Antares 531" <gordonlrDELETE@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:8n4874pdkke4fak4nap8m3eaqdukkq3p7j@4ax.com...

On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 17:50:55 -0700 (PDT), Osmium <Rushtown@aol.com
wrote:

On Jul 7, 8:20?pm, "Geopelia" <phildo...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

"Rushtown" <Rusht...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:9634be60-2a8a-4b2f-bd67-b2baf1c2a492@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...

(snip)

Adults may be teaching a child to point. Mother says "Look at that
(whatever)" and points to it. When the child does the same, naming
something
and pointing to it, he is praised for being such a clever boy.
It>s in the child>s interests to point and name. ?Perhaps it is a
learned
behaviour, not an natural one for that stage of development.

Geopelia- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Did you ever notice that you only have to point out something once and
the child remembers the name?
It may be learned. But my basic premise was that if a group of
hominids with the mentality of a modern three year old were to point
out things to each other as they hunted it would aid them in finding
their way home later and in finding food later.
It is easy to make up what are refered to in anthropology as "just so"
stories (after Kipling).
Any behavior can be described as evolutionarily adaptive and so
inherited, ie genetic.

The core question is, why did this complex speech capability show up
only in homo sapiens sapiens and in no other primates? This has
something to do with a mutation on the FOXP2 gene on chromosome 7, but
why did Darwinian natural selection not develop this in any other
creatures? Gordon

It used to be thought that parrots talking didn>t understand what they were
saying. But experiments with Alex, an African Grey, did show that sometimes
they could understand what some words mean.

If an ape isn>t capable of forming the actual sounds of human speech how
could it develop language?
[/quote]
The same way that singing wales have.

Osmium · Guest

On Jul 9, 6:43ï¿½pm, Sanforized <sanfori...@naol.con> wrote:
[quote]Occidental wrote:
Geopelia wrote:

It used to be thought that parrots talking didn>t understand what they were saying.
But experiments with Alex, an African Grey, did show that sometimes they could understand
what some words mean. If an ape isn>t capable of forming the actual sounds of human
speech how could it develop language?

On Jul 9, 6:10 pm, Sanforized <sanfori...@naol.con> wrote:

The same way that singing wales have.

Like this?
http://bethnesaf.org/CymruLandOfSong.html

Celts can>t seem to keep their version of culture
out of anything.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
[/quote]
Celts and Italians are better singers than other peoples.
Does England have as varied and beautiful folk songs as Ireland? Not
anymore---but possibly yes in the past.
Just go through You Tube and listen to the singing of national anthems
and you will see the Irish and the Welsh are the best.

Antares 531 · Guest

On Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:45:39 +1200, "Geopelia" <phildoran@xtra.co.nz>
wrote:

[quote]
"Antares 531" <gordonlrDELETE@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:8n4874pdkke4fak4nap8m3eaqdukkq3p7j@4ax.com...
On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 17:50:55 -0700 (PDT), Osmium <Rushtown@aol.com
wrote:

(snip)

The core question is, why did this complex speech capability show up
only in homo sapiens sapiens and in no other primates? This has
something to do with a mutation on the FOXP2 gene on chromosome 7, but
why did Darwinian natural selection not develop this in any other
creatures? Gordon

It used to be thought that parrots talking didn>t understand what they were
saying. But experiments with Alex, an African Grey, did show that sometimes
they could understand what some words mean.

If an ape isn>t capable of forming the actual sounds of human speech how
could it develop language?

I guess what I>m trying to understand is, did humans develop the[/quote]
ability to make complex sounds as a result of natural selection. That
is, did some have a slightly better ability at this than others, and
did this ability somehow influence their survival and breeding
success? Or did a complex genetic mutation occur that suddenly gave
humans a much greater ability to utter complex sounds, and did this
then lead to the development of language. Which came first, and which
led to the other? And, why didn>t it happen to other anthropoids?
Gordon

Sanforized · Guest

Occidental wrote:

[quote]Geopelia wrote:

It used to be thought that parrots talking didn>t understand what they were saying.
But experiments with Alex, an African Grey, did show that sometimes they could understand
what some words mean. If an ape isn>t capable of forming the actual sounds of human
speech how could it develop language?

On Jul 9, 6:10 pm, Sanforized <sanfori...@naol.con> wrote:

The same way that singing wales have.

Like this?
http://bethnesaf.org/CymruLandOfSong.html
[/quote]
Celts can>t seem to keep their version of culture
out of anything.

Sanforized · Guest

Osmium wrote:
[quote]On Jul 9, 6:43ï¿½pm, Sanforized <sanfori...@naol.con> wrote:

Occidental wrote:

Geopelia wrote:

It used to be thought that parrots talking didn>t understand what they were saying.
But experiments with Alex, an African Grey, did show that sometimes they could understand
what some words mean. If an ape isn>t capable of forming the actual sounds of human
speech how could it develop language?

On Jul 9, 6:10 pm, Sanforized <sanfori...@naol.con> wrote:

The same way that singing wales have.

Like this?
http://bethnesaf.org/CymruLandOfSong.html

Celts can>t seem to keep their version of culture
out of anything.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Celts and Italians are better singers than other peoples.
Does England have as varied and beautiful folk songs as Ireland? Not
anymore---but possibly yes in the past.
Just go through You Tube and listen to the singing of national anthems
and you will see the Irish and the Welsh are the best.
[/quote]
And you>re very good at thread drift too.......

Occidental · Guest

On Jul 8, 9:56 pm, d...@no.email.thankstospam.net (DK) wrote:
[quote]In article <32e75d03-ff21-42e0-9be9-38a4c8186...@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, Osmium <Rusht...@aol.com> wrote:

Hominid points at a bear and goes "Urghh" or "Barrgh" imitating the
sound. Nouns are invented.

Umm, what>s Chinese sound for "bear"?

What kind of sound was imitated when a noun for a sun was invented?

DK
[/quote]
The sound of nuclear fusion, of course.

foolsrushin. · Guest

On 7 Jul, 17:50, "Alan White" <alannc44~nosp...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
[quote]"Rushtown" <Rusht...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:9634be60-2a8a-4b2f-bd67-b2baf1c2a492@25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
Gradually there were improvements in speech, just as there are with
that of a young child. First adjectives are added, then verbs. Much
later a past tense (which the Cro Magnons had and the Neandertals did
not.)
How can you be so sure about Neandertals?
Alan
[/quote]
He can>t! Speech exemplifies a brain emergent, dealing with entities
of complex properties. There is no sound way of deriving it from
grunts and groans, competitive behaviour, etc. And evolutionally it is
useless: spiders don>t need it, bears don>t need it, etc. You can only
make sense of the growth of knowledge if you assume that discovery is
no longer driven by evolution - if ever it were! Whether the pursuit
of knowledge and the capacity to pursue it was seeded externally is a
a good question, but there can be no doubt that the search for
knowledge makes us unique! Eccles and Popper combine to show that this
is true, and Chomsky shows it, too, to some extent, arguing simply
that syntax is programmed into your brain, so that you arrive with
language potential.

Only a telelogical interpretation can make sense of the rest!
--
'foolsrushin.'

tadchem@comcast.net · Guest

On Jul 7, 11:16 am, Rushtown <Rusht...@aol.com> wrote:
[quote]When the jungles in Africa thinned out and more Savannah appeared, our
hominid ancestors had to hunt, and travel in open spaces. One useful
adaptation was bipedalism---so we could travel long distances and free
our hands for carrying meat back to camp and for throwing rocks at
prey.

But why did we start talking? Observe how a young child acquires
speech. And one stage a child will point at everything he sees and
name it.
I believe this replicates a stage in human development when it was
helpful for one member of a band of hunters to point out landmarks and
dangers in order to contributed to group success. Because the members
of the hunting group were genetically related this benefitted the
hominid who did the pointing out and his (and their) genes were passed
on.

Gradually there were improvements in speech, just as there are with
that of a young child. First adjectives are added, then verbs. Much
later a past tense (which the Cro Magnons had and the Neandertals did
not.)
[/quote]
Fantasy.

Homo habilis had sufficient communication skills to impart the basic
concepts of tool-making to other members in the group. They learned
from experience, from which it must be inferred that they had a
recognition of the distinction between past and present.

This was Early Pleistocene, 1.6 to 2.2 million years ago.

H. neanderthalensis came along MUCH later.

Tom Davidson
Richmond, VA


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