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Repeating Decimal
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 Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 9:25 pm Post subject: When and how were electron concepts introduced into chemistr |
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JJ Thompson is credited with the discovery of electrons in 1897 in cathode
rays. Faraday>s law indicated that charge was atomistic if matter were
atomistic. My question is, when were electrons invoked to explain chemical
reactions and other properties? Were there any such explanations before
Thompson?
Bill |
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Dr. Dickie
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 11:41 pm Post subject: Re: When and how were electron concepts introduced into chem |
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On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:25:20 GMT, Repeating Decimal
<salmonfry@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
*JJ Thompson is credited with the discovery of electrons in 1897 in
cathode
*rays. Faraday>s law indicated that charge was atomistic if matter
were
*atomistic. My question is, when were electrons invoked to explain
chemical
*reactions and other properties? Were there any such explanations
before
*Thompson?
*
*Bill
Good question. I would think that came after the arrangement of the
periodic table, which showed that the valence shell electron
configuration correlated well with chemical and physical properties.
--------------------------------------------------
Dr. Dickie
Skepticult member in good standing #394-00596-438
Poking kooks with a pointy stick
--------------------------------------------------
"The important thing is not to stop questioning.
Curiosity has its own reason for existing."
A. Einstein |
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Joćo Antonio
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 12:32 am Post subject: Re: When and how were electron concepts introduced into chem |
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I will browse some books on that topic but Berzelius in the beggining of XIX
century
proposed a division of elements according to positive or negative charges.
"Dr. Dickie" <Dr_Dickie@chembench.com> escreveu na mensagem
news:a8dfkvgr694rhdjsmtk7nuv9oaf1dutgcj@4ax.com...
[quote]On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 16:25:20 GMT, Repeating Decimal
salmonfry@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
*JJ Thompson is credited with the discovery of electrons in 1897 in
cathode
*rays. Faraday>s law indicated that charge was atomistic if matter
were
*atomistic. My question is, when were electrons invoked to explain
chemical
*reactions and other properties? Were there any such explanations
before
*Thompson?
*
*Bill
Good question. I would think that came after the arrangement of the
periodic table, which showed that the valence shell electron
configuration correlated well with chemical and physical properties.
--------------------------------------------------
Dr. Dickie
Skepticult member in good standing #394-00596-438
Poking kooks with a pointy stick
--------------------------------------------------
"The important thing is not to stop questioning.
Curiosity has its own reason for existing."
A. Einstein
[/quote]
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Repeating Decimal
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 2:53 am Post subject: Re: When and how were electron concepts introduced into chem |
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in article a8dfkvgr694rhdjsmtk7nuv9oaf1dutgcj@4ax.com, Dr. Dickie at
Dr_Dickie@chembench.com wrote on 8/23/03 11:41 AM:
[quote]Good question. I would think that came after the arrangement of the
periodic table, which showed that the valence shell electron
configuration correlated well with chemical and physical properties.
[/quote]
Although the periodic table is evidence of electrons, it certainly does not
cinch the case. I presume that chemists and physicists conversed more in
those dayes.
Bill |
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PSmith9626
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:18 am Post subject: Re: When and how were electron concepts introduced into |
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Dear Bill,
Try "The Nature of the Chemical Bond" by Linus Pauling.
best
Penny
>Message-id: <BB6D306F.80C9%salmonfry@sbcglobal.net> |
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Repeating Decimal
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 9:56 am Post subject: Re: When and how were electron concepts introduced into |
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in article 20030823231818.28058.00000476@mb-m29.aol.com, PSmith9626 at
psmith9626@aol.com wrote on 8/23/03 8:18 PM:
[quote]Try "The Nature of the Chemical Bond" by Linus Pauling.
best
Penny
[/quote]
It has been a while since I read parts of Pauling>s book. Of course it was
written well after electrons were discovered. It really is based upon
quantum mechanics. The concept of valence was around, but when, how, and why
was it finally attributed to electrons?
Bill |
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Dr. Dickie
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: When and how were electron concepts introduced into chem |
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On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:53:04 GMT, Repeating Decimal
<salmonfry@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
*in article a8dfkvgr694rhdjsmtk7nuv9oaf1dutgcj@4ax.com, Dr. Dickie at
*Dr_Dickie@chembench.com wrote on 8/23/03 11:41 AM:
*
*> Good question. I would think that came after the arrangement of the
*> periodic table, which showed that the valence shell electron
*> configuration correlated well with chemical and physical
properties.
*
*Although the periodic table is evidence of electrons, it certainly
does not
*cinch the case. I presume that chemists and physicists conversed more
in
*those dayes.
*
*Bill
I worded that response very poorly. Not just the periodic table
arrangement (Mendeleev worked that about in the late 1800>s), but also
Nils Bohr>s application of the quantum theory to get the arrangement
of the electrons (1913 or so). This then put the electrons into orbits
that would produce valence shell electron configurations, which when
looked at in the periodic arrangement, would have been fairly easy to
see was the basis of chemical reactivity. Damn exciting time for
chemical and physical science the late 1800>s the early 1900>s.
Dalton, Thompson, Rutherford, Bohr, Curie, etc.
--------------------------------------------------
Dr. Dickie
Skepticult member in good standing #394-00596-438
Poking kooks with a pointy stick
--------------------------------------------------
"The important thing is not to stop questioning.
Curiosity has its own reason for existing."
A. Einstein |
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Mohammed Farooq
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 7:55 pm Post subject: Re: When and how were electron concepts introduced into chem |
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Dr. Dickie <Dr_Dickie@chembench.com> wrote in message news:<dc2hkv4bms1jmd1p3mem7euskmgq6huv3h@4ax.com>...
[quote]On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:53:04 GMT, Repeating Decimal
salmonfry@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
*in article a8dfkvgr694rhdjsmtk7nuv9oaf1dutgcj@4ax.com, Dr. Dickie at
*Dr_Dickie@chembench.com wrote on 8/23/03 11:41 AM:
*
*> Good question. I would think that came after the arrangement of the
*> periodic table, which showed that the valence shell electron
*> configuration correlated well with chemical and physical
properties.
*
*Although the periodic table is evidence of electrons, it certainly
does not
*cinch the case. I presume that chemists and physicists conversed more
in
*those dayes.
*
*Bill
I worded that response very poorly. Not just the periodic table
arrangement (Mendeleev worked that about in the late 1800>s), but also
Nils Bohr>s application of the quantum theory to get the arrangement
of the electrons (1913 or so). This then put the electrons into orbits
that would produce valence shell electron configurations, which when
looked at in the periodic arrangement, would have been fairly easy to
see was the basis of chemical reactivity. Damn exciting time for
chemical and physical science the late 1800>s the early 1900>s.
Dalton, Thompson, Rutherford, Bohr, Curie, etc.
--------------------------------------------------
Dr. Dickie
Skepticult member in good standing #394-00596-438
Poking kooks with a pointy stick
--------------------------------------------------
Bill there is a website by the name "Selected Classic Papers in the[/quote]
History of Chemistry".You may find this website interesting. This
website ontains texts of atleast 100 monumental papers, including the
paper of J.J Thompson "On Cathode Rays".Mendeleev>s paper is also
given there.
The address is http://webserver.lemoyne.edu/faculty/giunta/papers1.html |
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Repeating Decimal
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 8:10 am Post subject: Re: When and how were electron concepts introduced intochemi |
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in article bibtf6$fd4$1@news.mc.ntu.edu.tw, Joćo Antonio at
jas_bomfim@uol.com.br wrote on 8/24/03 7:50 PM:
[quote]I didn>t have time yet to read my books on History of Chemistry,
vut we should not forget Humphry Davy, which isolated many
elements reducing them electrolythically, in the middle of XIX century...
Were there (can>t say now) any explanations of "electrons being absorbed" by
the metals and metal ores?
[/quote]
In my first post on the subject, I did mention Faraday>s law. While
Faraday>s law is easily explained with the concept of electrons, the
discovery of the law does not imply the existence of electrons.
Bill |
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Gavin Whittaker
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 9:21 am Post subject: Re: When and how were electron concepts introduced into chem |
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Dr. Dickie <Dr_Dickie@chembench.com> writted:
: Good question. I would think that came after the arrangement of the
: periodic table, which showed that the valence shell electron
: configuration correlated well with chemical and physical properties.
To be pedantic, Mendeleev correlated atomic mass with physical and
chemical properties. The periodic table was only ever based on atomic
number, let alone electron structure, after Moseley discovered the
concept in 1909.
Gavin |
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Mohammed Farooq
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 7:12 pm Post subject: Re: When and how were electron concepts introduced into chem |
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"Joćo Antonio" <jas_bomfim@uol.com.br> wrote in message news:<bi8fcp$gvl$1@news.mc.ntu.edu.tw>...
[quote]I will browse some books on that topic but Berzelius in the beggining of XIX
century
proposed a division of elements according to positive or negative charges.
[/quote]
How did nineteenth century chemists experimentally determined the
charge on atoms, radicals such as SO4 having a charge of -2? |
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Repeating Decimal
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: When and how were electron concepts introduced into chem |
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in article 66756669.0308250612.388d2584@posting.google.com, Mohammed Farooq
at farooq_w@hotmail.com wrote on 8/25/03 7:12 AM:
[quote]"Joćo Antonio" <jas_bomfim@uol.com.br> wrote in message
news:<bi8fcp$gvl$1@news.mc.ntu.edu.tw>...
I will browse some books on that topic but Berzelius in the beggining of XIX
century
proposed a division of elements according to positive or negative charges.
How did nineteenth century chemists experimentally determined the
charge on atoms, radicals such as SO4 having a charge of -2?
[/quote]
The charges attached to radicals is just formal bookkeeping. What is the
evidence that the charge on SO$ is -2? If it turned out to be -
1.6, what would that mean?
Bill |
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Terry Wilder
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 10:23 am Post subject: Re: When and how were electron concepts introduced into chem |
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"Mohammed Farooq" <farooq_w@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:66756669.0308250612.388d2584@posting.google.com...
[quote]"Joćo Antonio" <jas_bomfim@uol.com.br> wrote in message
news:<bi8fcp$gvl$1@news.mc.ntu.edu.tw>...
I will browse some books on that topic but Berzelius in the beggining of
XIX
century
proposed a division of elements according to positive or negative
charges.
How did nineteenth century chemists experimentally determined the
charge on atoms, radicals such as SO4 having a charge of -2?
[/quote]
Probably so many ampere seconds. |
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Terry Wilder
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2003 10:38 am Post subject: Re: When and how were electron concepts introduced into chem |
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"Richard Schultz" <schultr@mail.biu.ack.il> wrote in message
news:bic4k8$5fr$1@news.iucc.ac.il...
[quote]In article <vkhq4b5pssbv91@corp.supernews.com>, Marvin Margoshes
physnospamchem@cloud9.net> wrote:
: "Repeating Decimal" <salmonfry@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
: news:BB6CE3A3.804D%salmonfry@sbcglobal.net...
:> JJ Thompson is credited with the discovery of electrons in 1897 in
cathode
:> rays. Faraday>s law indicated that charge was atomistic if matter were
:> atomistic. My question is, when were electrons invoked to explain
chemical
:> reactions and other properties? Were there any such explanations before
:> Thompson?
: The modern understanding of electron bonding was developed by Linus
Pauling.
The idea of a "chemical bond" as a pair of electrons shared between two
atoms is usually credited to G. N. Lewis in his 1916 paper "The Atom and
the Molecule" (J. Am. Chem. Soc., 1916, vol. 38, pp. 762-785). It>s a
fascinating paper, and well worth reading. One interesting aspect of the
paper is that he rejects the Bohr atom, but for the wrong reasons; he
concludes that Coulomb>s Law is not true at small distances.
-----
Richard Schultz schultr@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
[/quote]
This is the beginning of covalent bonding. One would wonder what Kekule`
believed was holding his carbon atoms together. |
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