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Peter Morris · Guest

Please remind me of something that I _think_ I remember
from chemistry lessons many years ago, I>m not sure.

Is water just simply H2O?

I think I recall that there is some weak attraction between
units of H20, so that an actual water molecule might be
H20 times 5000.

Have I remembered that right? Are there in fact different
sizes of water molecule?

Could a beaker of water plausibly contain only molecules of a
certain size, eg all small molecules or all large molecules,
or would it be a random mix of sizes?

Do different sized molecules in fact show different properties?

Do these molecules exist as 'chains', or 'globules?'

Please excuse the probably hopelessly incorrect terminology.

--
_______________________
/_____________________(_)
| _____________________ email to
| | |__________________(_) Peter_Morris_1 at
| |/____________________ btinternet dot com
|_____________________(_)

Larry Smith · Guest

The effects associated with 'hydrogen bonding' are what you are talking
about.

Hydrogen bonding is the attraction of the proton nucleus of the hydrogen
toward electronegative oxygen of nearby molecules, in simple terms.

This gives water properties, like elevated boiling point and others, which
might also be explained if water were polymeric.

'Polywater' has never been separated from H2O, although it was claimed
several years ago.

"Peter Morris" <nosp@m.please> wrote in message
news:bi99f5$bdj$1@titan.btinternet.com...
[quote]Please remind me of something that I _think_ I remember
from chemistry lessons many years ago, I>m not sure.

Is water just simply H2O?

I think I recall that there is some weak attraction between
units of H20, so that an actual water molecule might be
H20 times 5000.

Have I remembered that right? Are there in fact different
sizes of water molecule?

Could a beaker of water plausibly contain only molecules of a
certain size, eg all small molecules or all large molecules,
or would it be a random mix of sizes?

Do different sized molecules in fact show different properties?

Do these molecules exist as 'chains', or 'globules?'

Please excuse the probably hopelessly incorrect terminology.

--
_______________________
/_____________________(_)
| _____________________ email to
| | |__________________(_) Peter_Morris_1 at
| |/____________________ btinternet dot com
|_____________________(_)

[/quote]

Bob · Guest

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 02:55:34 +0000 (UTC), "Peter Morris"
<nosp@m.please> wrote:

[quote]Please remind me of something that I _think_ I remember
from chemistry lessons many years ago, I>m not sure.

Is water just simply H2O?
[/quote]
yes, sort of

[quote]
I think I recall that there is some weak attraction between
units of H20,
[/quote]
yes. so-called hydrogen bonding.

[quote]so that an actual water molecule might be
H20 times 5000.
[/quote]
Now this is the key point, and it is perspective/terminology. A water
molecule, H-O-H, is a defined entity that is "stable".

The interactions among the water molecules are very weak. Thus these
interactions are fleeting in liquid water (and more or less non
existent in water vapor). The only well-defined and isolable species
is the single molecule, H2O.

[quote]
Have I remembered that right? Are there in fact different
sizes of water molecule?
[/quote]
there are different sizes of clusters of water molecules. But the key
stable entity is the underlying H2O.

[quote]
Could a beaker of water plausibly contain only molecules of a
certain size,
[/quote]
clusters of a certain size? no

[quote]eg all small molecules or all large molecules,
or would it be a random mix of sizes?
[/quote]
yes

bob

[quote]
Do different sized molecules in fact show different properties?

Do these molecules exist as 'chains', or 'globules?'

Please excuse the probably hopelessly incorrect terminology.[/quote]

Mark Thorson · Guest

Peter Morris wrote:

[quote]I think I recall that there is some weak attraction between
units of H20, so that an actual water molecule might be
H20 times 5000.
[/quote]
There is an obsolete model of liquid water which proposes
that it is composed of hydrogen-bonded clusters. Various
sizes of clusters have been proposed, however those models
became obsolete after about 1980. There are believed to
be pentagonal and hexagonal structures of water molecules
in liquid water, but these structures are part of a larger
network, not free clusters.

[quote]Have I remembered that right? Are there in fact different
sizes of water molecule?

Could a beaker of water plausibly contain only molecules of a
certain size, eg all small molecules or all large molecules,
or would it be a random mix of sizes?
[/quote]
All (or nearly all) water molecules in a beaker of pure water
form a single, hydrogen-bonded, interconnected network.

Barry Hunt · Guest

"Mark Thorson" <nospam@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:3F48FFC7.34CC57EC@sonic.net...
[quote]Peter Morris wrote:

I think I recall that there is some weak attraction between
units of H20, so that an actual water molecule might be
H20 times 5000.

There is an obsolete model of liquid water which proposes
that it is composed of hydrogen-bonded clusters. Various
sizes of clusters have been proposed, however those models
became obsolete after about 1980. There are believed to
be pentagonal and hexagonal structures of water molecules
in liquid water, but these structures are part of a larger
network, not free clusters.

Have I remembered that right? Are there in fact different
sizes of water molecule?

Could a beaker of water plausibly contain only molecules of a
certain size, eg all small molecules or all large molecules,
or would it be a random mix of sizes?

All (or nearly all) water molecules in a beaker of pure water
form a single, hydrogen-bonded, interconnected network.

Of course the homoeopaths like the idea of water forming clusters and having[/quote]
a "memory" because it suits their (otherwise scientifically untenable)
theories on diluting materials to irrational levels.

Barry Hunt

Guest · Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 7:45 am Post subject: Re: Re: water

"Barry Hunt" <barry.hunt@soltec.com.au> wrote:

[quote]Of course the homoeopaths like the idea of water forming clusters and having
a "memory" because it suits their (otherwise scientifically untenable)
theories on diluting materials to irrational levels.
[/quote]
It>s right here
http://www.digibio.com/cgi-bin/node.pl?nd=n1

Roger

Bob Burns · Guest

Poly water was shown to be silicon dioxide extracted from glass. They did
it by putting water in capillary tubes, then measuring the viscosity. They
originally concluded it was poly water, later shown to SiO2. Capillary
tubes, of course, have a large surface area.

Interesting example of how one can draw the wrong conclusion from good data.

--
Bob Burns
Mill Hall PA
email rlburns@uplink.net

"Larry Smith" <larrys25@tellcon.net> wrote in message
news:3f47600d_1@newsfeed...
[quote]The effects associated with 'hydrogen bonding' are what you are talking
about.

Hydrogen bonding is the attraction of the proton nucleus of the hydrogen
toward electronegative oxygen of nearby molecules, in simple terms.

This gives water properties, like elevated boiling point and others, which
might also be explained if water were polymeric.

'Polywater' has never been separated from H2O, although it was claimed
several years ago.

"Peter Morris" <nosp@m.please> wrote in message
news:bi99f5$bdj$1@titan.btinternet.com...
Please remind me of something that I _think_ I remember
from chemistry lessons many years ago, I>m not sure.

Is water just simply H2O?

I think I recall that there is some weak attraction between
units of H20, so that an actual water molecule might be
H20 times 5000.

Have I remembered that right? Are there in fact different
sizes of water molecule?

Could a beaker of water plausibly contain only molecules of a
certain size, eg all small molecules or all large molecules,
or would it be a random mix of sizes?

Do different sized molecules in fact show different properties?

Do these molecules exist as 'chains', or 'globules?'

Please excuse the probably hopelessly incorrect terminology.

--
_______________________
/_____________________(_)
| _____________________ email to
| | |__________________(_) Peter_Morris_1 at
| |/____________________ btinternet dot com
|_____________________(_)

[/quote]

Mark Thorson · Guest

Bob Burns wrote:

[quote]Poly water was shown to be silicon dioxide extracted from glass.
They did it by putting water in capillary tubes, then measuring the
viscosity. They originally concluded it was poly water, later shown
to SiO2. Capillary tubes, of course, have a large surface area.
[/quote]
No, even to this day we don>t know for sure what was in that
water. Dissolved silica is a good theory, but that was never
proven.

The Russians measured the freezing point of the sample, not
the viscosity. The samples were too small for a viscosity
measurement.

Terry Wilder · Guest

"Bruce Hamilton" <B.Hamilton@irl.cri.nz> wrote in message
news:3f4a6895.419371874@newshost.comnet.co.nz...
[quote]On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:28:54 GMT, "Bob Burns" <rlburns@uplink.net
wrote:

Poly water was shown to be silicon dioxide extracted from glass. They
did
it by putting water in capillary tubes, then measuring the viscosity.
They
originally concluded it was poly water, later shown to SiO2. Capillary
tubes, of course, have a large surface area.

Interesting example of how one can draw the wrong conclusion from good
data.

The story of polywater is superbly told in Felix Franks' wonderful
little book called " Polywater " MIT Press ISBN 0-262-06073-6 (1981).
Felix Franks is/was one of the world>s leading experts on the
properties of water, and he details the whole saga in a very
easy-to-read, and yet technically accurate, manner, from the time
that Fedyakin reported it in the early 1960s.

Boris V. Deryagin first discussed "anomalous water" in the West
( in the Faraday discussions in Sept 1966 ), and other
investigators started to duplicate his results. He withdrew his
claims in a letter to Nature on August 17 1973. The period between
these events is the foundation of the book ( and after those
events - some researchers still claimed it existed, even after
he withdrew his claim ).

I highly recommend Franks' book, it>s a wonderfully sympathetic
and perceptive look at how several groups of scientists allowed
themselves to be carried along by media and their own expectations.

He also points out that one bad consequence was that interesting
research trying to understand why such extraordinary amounts of
normally-insoluble materials would dissolve in water was also a
casulty in the rush to be distanced from polywater.

I favour Franks' conclusion, " It is impossible to pass a verdict on
the polywater affair in terms of "guilty or not guilty," though some
have seen fit to do so. "

Bruce Hamilton
[/quote]
Similarly, yet more recently, there were claims of water retaining memories
of solutes no longer present, through bulk/colligative properties..

Terry Wilder · Guest

"Mark Thorson" <nospam@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:3F48FFC7.34CC57EC@sonic.net...
[quote]Peter Morris wrote:

I think I recall that there is some weak attraction between
units of H20, so that an actual water molecule might be
H20 times 5000.

There is an obsolete model of liquid water which proposes
that it is composed of hydrogen-bonded clusters. Various
sizes of clusters have been proposed, however those models
became obsolete after about 1980. There are believed to
be pentagonal and hexagonal structures of water molecules
in liquid water, but these structures are part of a larger
network, not free clusters.

Have I remembered that right? Are there in fact different
sizes of water molecule?

Could a beaker of water plausibly contain only molecules of a
certain size, eg all small molecules or all large molecules,
or would it be a random mix of sizes?

All (or nearly all) water molecules in a beaker of pure water
form a single, hydrogen-bonded, interconnected network.

[/quote]
At zero variance you could make arguments against most of these assertions.


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