Science and Technology news... :: View topic - voltage drop and dimmable fluorescent ballasts

server · Guest

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hrlight · Guest

On Jun 25, 7:40 pm, RickR <r...@silhouettelights.com> wrote:
[quote]On Jun 25, 7:06 am, hrlight <hrli...@gmail.com> wrote:

Perhaps he is confusing the low voltage dimming signal with the power
to run the lights. If he is confusing "daisy chaining" fixtures with
series wiring you need a new electrician.

Just how small is this shop, and what wattages & voltages are we
talking about?

-----------
RickR
[/quote]
Yes, it was an odd conversation. The shop room is nom 20' x 20';
wired 120 V. The lamps are (12 ) T8 30W (32W equiv) and I requested
to connect the two linear runs installed on opposing walls (20'
apart). Because of the added expense of ballasts and work time the
owner opted not to use the ballasts and dimmers. We decided to set
the fixture runs on individual switches. My feeling is that the
electrician did not want to run the cable.

I thank you both for the information.

LightingMan · Guest

Is it possible that my bulbs are blowing as they only turn on for 3
minutes each time?

Isn>t there some sort of halogen cycle where the atoms get re-
deposited on the filament?

I>ve no understanding of this, any help welcome!

Thanks - Lightingman

Victor Roberts · Guest

On Sat, 5 Jul 2008 10:17:29 -0700 (PDT), LightingMan
<Tartufone@gmail.com> wrote:

[quote]Is it possible that my bulbs are blowing as they only turn on for 3
minutes each time?

Isn>t there some sort of halogen cycle where the atoms get re-
deposited on the filament?

I>ve no understanding of this, any help welcome!

Thanks - Lightingman
[/quote]
The halogen cycle cleans tungsten off the wall of the
filament tube. The idea that the halogen cycle deposits
this tungsten back on the thinnest parts of the filament to
extend life is mostly folklore. Life is longer because the
high halogen pressure inhibits tungsten evaporation.

--
Vic Roberts
http://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
To reply via e-mail:
replace xxx with vdr in the Reply to: address
or use e-mail address listed at the Web site.

This information is provided for educational purposes only.
It may not be used in any publication or posted on any Web
site without written permission.

Jeff Engel · Guest

TKM wrote:
[quote]"Jonathan Scheuch" <jscheuch@labsphere.com> wrote in message
news:9dfb9f1f-efaa-4e4f-86b1-3fdf914a2cd7@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 24, 10:35 pm, "TKM" <non...@no.net> wrote:
A lighting designer colleague is lighting a residential sculpture gallery
with suspended track and 20 watt MR16 lamps. MR16 lamps, of course,
typically utilize dichroic reflectors and there is some back light off of
the reflector --even from the GE "Constant Color". Because the ceiling in
the gallery area is decorative and the designer wants to focus attention
on
the sculpture, she would like to eliminate all of the back light and is
thinking of painting the back of standard MR16s with heat resistant black
paint.

The fixtures being used are minimal -- no enclosures -- and the lamp is
held
in place by the socket.

I know there are some MR16s around with standard opaque reflectors, but
the
designer doesn>t like the beam spreads available. Painting the reflector
of
a dichroic reflector lamp will certainly increase the heat in the beam and
the temperature of the reflector surface, but I can>t think of any other
reason not to go with painting the reflector (other than it spoils some
great lamp engineering). Any other thoughts?

Terry McGowan

I would be concerned with locally heating the reflector and causing it
to crack. Ushio offers MR16 lamps with opaque reflectors in a variety
of colors (including matte black) with a variety of beam spreads. Has
your friend considered them for the application?

Jonathan Scheuch

Yes, she evaluated literally dozens of lamps, but likes the beam
characteristics of the GE MR16s best. She is a perfectionist when it comes
to lighting patterns from reflector and projector lamps and her work shows
it; so I>m trying to find a good solution. I agree with your concern about
heat; but it is the 20 watt lamp that>s involved here and those same
reflectors are capable of handling filament tubes up to 70 watts.

Terry McGowan

When did an opaque backlight shield get jettisoned from the solution range?[/quote]

Adam Aglionby · Guest

On Jul 5, 6:17 pm, LightingMan <Tartuf...@gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]Is it possible that my bulbs are blowing as they only turn on for 3
minutes each time?

Isn>t there some sort of halogen cycle where the atoms get re-
deposited on the filament?

I>ve no understanding of this, any help welcome!

Thanks - Lightingman
[/quote]
Mr Klipstein is too modest to link to his own site:

http://members.misty.com/don/bulb1.html

Adam

Thomas Paterson · Guest

On Jul 9, 10:21 pm, Jeff Engel <searcher...@comcast.net> wrote:

[quote]When did an opaque backlight shield get jettisoned from the solution range?
[/quote]
I don>t think there is a big problem here, these are 20W lamps, but on
the higher wattage lamps, the shields have a habit of overheating the
lamp and burning out the bases (not to mention cracking the ceramic
filler between lamp and reflector). I>m extremely hesitant to use
them. Also, they don>t shield very well around the wedge of glass
that forms the base.

Thomas.

Vikström · Guest

Aurinkokunnassa planeettojen ratanopeus pienenee etäisyyden auringossa
kasvaessa, koska gravitaatio heikkenee vastaavasti auringosta.(Juuri kuten
aiemmin kerroin olevan tilanne myös atomien K, L, M-kuorikerroksien
ionisaatiotaulukossa, jonka tänne hetki sitten vastaanvänkääjien harmiksi
postasin. Eli totutusti minä olin myös tässä täysin oikeassa ja SUPO/TVO
insinööristöt totaalisen väärässä.. .Noin yllättyikö enää kukaan?) Galaksien
on todettu pyörivän kuin polkupyörän pinnat ja syyksi löytyy mystinen
galakseja ympäröivä ns. musta aine. Neutriinon löytynyt massa on osa tätä
ainetta. Myös sammuneet ruskeat tähdet, mutta nyt haetaan myös MACHOA
Massive Compact Halo Object. Jokia ympäröi mustana aineena galaksien
ulkopuolella.

Näkyvä mailmankaikkeus on 4%, 23% on pimeää ainetta ja loput 73% on nimetty
pimeäksi energiaksi. Sitten erittäin tärkeä tieto: 7miljardia vuotta
alkuräjähdyksestä on gravitaatio ja sen mm. vuokseilmiöiden kaltaiset
fossiilienergiahäviöt hidastaneet alkupaukun laajenemisenergian voimia.
Gravitaatio vetää myös ihan suoraan kappaleita takaisin yhteen. Nyt ei vaan
tiedetä riittääkä gravitaatiomassan voimavarat lopettamaan koko
fossiilienergialaajenemisen alkupaukusta. Maailmaan on todettu alkavan
vaikuttamaan pimeän enmergian kasvava vaikutus kiihdyttäen laajentumista.
Tämä selittyy sillä, että tyhjiöavaruuksissa ainetta muodostuu alati aineen
ja antiaineen pareja, jotka "lainaavat" energiaa gravitaatiopvärähelysäikein
ympäriltään näitä muodostaakseen.

(Kyseisessä ilmiössä ei ole toki mitään ihmeellistä vaan kyse on jo 60v
tunnetusta arkisesta Casimir-efektistä. Mutta koska kaava antaa fotoneille
massan, säteilyenergialle kyvyn varastoitua, siirtyä ja viiveellä purkautua
ja näin radioaktiivisuudelle sen pysyvyydet ja beetta-soihduille kyvyn
10-kertaistaa säteilytaustamme IAEA päätti kylmässä viisaudessaan kieltää
MYÖS tällaisten faktojen olemassaolot tuosta vaan! Fysiikka invalidisoitiin
aina koulutuspuutetta myöten ja nyt ei maailmassa juuri muut ymmärrä
fysiikkaa kuin näiden "kadotetun tusinakaavaston metsästäjät!")

Kirja jatkaa salatuista gravitatiolinkkiytyvistä Casimireistä peitellysti:
"Tämän pitäisi olla juuri sitä, mitä olemme etsimässä. Lisäksi: mitä
suuremmasta tyhjiöstä on kyse, sitä suurempi poistovoima näillä kyseisillä
virtuaalimuodostushiukkaspareilla. Oletamme siis tämän voiman kasvavan
maailmankaikkeuden laajetessa, juuri niinkuin olemme havainneet. Kosminen
vääristyminen satojentuhansien galaksien muodostumisessa ovat osoittaneet
massallisten fotonivalokimppujen vääristyneen massan vääristäminä. (Juuri
kuten Rytkönen oivasti esittää!) Ilmiö tynnetaan myös Einsteinin
valorenkaina esim. 4C 05.51 radiokohteessa. Galaksien on usein todettu
venyvän mm.kaariksi. Galaksit kallistuvat jne.

Nyt jotain lekaa niille SUPO harhatiedottajille mm. Evojeesuksille, joiden
mukaan nykyfysiikka osaa laskea 15 numeron tarkkuudella tapahtumiamme:"S.87
Itse asiassa laajentumisteorian tähtitieteellisten havaintojen ja teorioiden
mallin välillä oleva ero on luokkaa 10^120. Virhe on niin suuri, että
kyseessä täytyy olla suurin virhe teorian ja havaintojen välillä KOKO
tieteen historiassa!" .. .. ..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*Nyt ei voi kun vetää henkeä ja naureskella sille sulalle hulluudelle jota
IAEA:n "kadotetun fysiikkatusinan kaavakato maailmallemme aiheuttaa. Ja
tosiaan alkakaa nyt laajasti ymmärtää, että mm. Rytkösen, ja minun
kritiikini nykyfysiikkaharhasta perustuu JUURI tämänkaltaisiin asioihin!
Nimenomaan vaikka aihesta ei suin surmin halua ydinhallintomme räikeän
härskein painostuksin keskustella, niin Newtonilla, Malenkalla ja Einsteinin
pysyvien ja katoamattomien säteilyenergioittensa maailmassa jo oli fysiikka
miljoonasti paremmin hallussa kun nykyisessä IAEA:n invbalidisoimassa
fysiikkaharhautuksessa!

JohnR66 · Guest

"JB" <nil@spam.net> wrote in message
news:6kh8caF7v84fU1@mid.individual.net...
[quote]
"JohnR66" <nospam@att.net> wrote in message
news:cNJEk.249543$102.177322@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
I bought these bulbs to replace the xtra vision bulbs I had in my head
lamps and the difference is noticable.
When my Mom>s OEM bulb blew in her Toyota, I installed a new set of low
beams and she said the difference really helped her night driving.

These are clear envelope halogen bulbs. They are quite costly ($50 per
set in the US). I>d guess they are either over driven for more light at
reduced runtime or have an IR coating on the envelope that returns the
heat back to the filament for improved efficiency. I believe the wattage
to be the same as OEM.

They aren>t HIR (halogen-infrared) types in this case. These and the Osram
Silverstar or Nightbreaker types use a higher pressure gas fill (xenon in
this case) combined with a superb filament design to optimise lumen
output. The filaments operate close to the maximum possible temperature
for tungsten too, which increases efficacy. The downside is marginally
reduced service life.
They are without a doubt the best non-HID auto headlamps available, and
probably the single best improvement you can make to a car, (or in my
case motorcycle) for winter driving.

JB
I would think operating the filament so hot would make it prone to failure[/quote]
do to vibrations.
For the cost of them, I would have liked to see the IR reflector technology
in use for possibly even more light.
Anyone have the lumen and life data on these?

Anyhow, for anyone with any doubts, it is finally a product that lives up to
its claims.
John

JB · Guest

"JohnR66" <nospam@att.net> wrote in message
news:ce3Fk.251295$102.83303@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
[quote]"JB" <nil@spam.net> wrote in message
news:6kh8caF7v84fU1@mid.individual.net...

"JohnR66" <nospam@att.net> wrote in message
news:cNJEk.249543$102.177322@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
I bought these bulbs to replace the xtra vision bulbs I had in my head
lamps and the difference is noticable.
When my Mom>s OEM bulb blew in her Toyota, I installed a new set of low
beams and she said the difference really helped her night driving.

These are clear envelope halogen bulbs. They are quite costly ($50 per
set in the US). I>d guess they are either over driven for more light at
reduced runtime or have an IR coating on the envelope that returns the
heat back to the filament for improved efficiency. I believe the wattage
to be the same as OEM.

They aren>t HIR (halogen-infrared) types in this case. These and the
Osram Silverstar or Nightbreaker types use a higher pressure gas fill
(xenon in this case) combined with a superb filament design to optimise
lumen output. The filaments operate close to the maximum possible
temperature for tungsten too, which increases efficacy. The downside is
marginally reduced service life.
They are without a doubt the best non-HID auto headlamps available, and
probably the single best improvement you can make to a car, (or in my
case motorcycle) for winter driving.

JB
I would think operating the filament so hot would make it prone to failure
do to vibrations.
[/quote]
The metallurgy of these filaments is rather special as you would expect.
Actually though, tungsten filaments are more fragile when cold.

[quote]For the cost of them, I would have liked to see the IR reflector
technology in use for possibly even more light.
[/quote]
HIR coatings are very expensive to implement versus the extra efficacy
gained, and most importantly only really suited for double ended lamp
designs or special single axial filament designs.

[quote]Anyone have the lumen and life data on these?
[/quote]
I>d check with Philips for the correct info on the Extremes but for others
see here:
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/bulbs/bulb_types/bulb_types.html

[quote]
Anyhow, for anyone with any doubts, it is finally a product that lives up
to its claims.
[/quote]
Indeed.

JB

Guest

On Wed, 1 Oct 2008 13:21:13 +0100 JB <nil@spam.net> wrote:

| "JohnR66" <nospam@att.net> wrote in message
| news:cNJEk.249543$102.177322@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
|>I bought these bulbs to replace the xtra vision bulbs I had in my head
|>lamps and the difference is noticable.
|> When my Mom>s OEM bulb blew in her Toyota, I installed a new set of low
|> beams and she said the difference really helped her night driving.
|>
|> These are clear envelope halogen bulbs. They are quite costly ($50 per set
|> in the US). I>d guess they are either over driven for more light at
|> reduced runtime or have an IR coating on the envelope that returns the
|> heat back to the filament for improved efficiency. I believe the wattage
|> to be the same as OEM.
|
| They aren>t HIR (halogen-infrared) types in this case. These and the Osram
| Silverstar or Nightbreaker types use a higher pressure gas fill (xenon in
| this case) combined with a superb filament design to optimise lumen output.
| The filaments operate close to the maximum possible temperature for tungsten
| too, which increases efficacy. The downside is marginally reduced service
| life.
| They are without a doubt the best non-HID auto headlamps available, and
| probably the single best improvement you can make to a car, (or in my case
| motorcycle) for winter driving.

Are these the bulbs with the bluish tint, or are the bluish ones the HID?

I do notice some cars with a slight bluish tint in the headlights. SOME of
them are brighter than normal. My father claims ALL the bluish ones are WAY
brighter than normal. He seems to have extra sensitivity to blue, or else
I have less (but my night vision is much better than his, so this does not
work out consistent the way I understand it should).

--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to ignorance |
| by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to |
| Usenet from these places, find another Usenet provider ASAP. |
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at ipal.net) |

Don Klipstein · Guest

In article <6kk2m8F894ltU1@mid.individual.net>, JB wrote in part:
[quote]
"JohnR66" <nospam@att.net> wrote in message
news:ce3Fk.251295$102.83303@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

I would think operating the filament so hot would make it prone to failure
do to vibrations.

The metallurgy of these filaments is rather special as you would expect.
Actually though, tungsten filaments are more fragile when cold.
[/quote]
My experience tells me otherwise.

If I drop or bang an incandescent lamp that has long wires leading
to the filament, and do so while the filament is cold, I find it hard (but
not impossible) to break or stretch the filament without also bending the
wires leading to the filament.

When the filament is hot, I find it easy to stretch the filament out of
shape by so much as rough tapping of the lamp. Sometimes, worse still, I
end up stretching only part of the filament - and that can make the
unstretched portion hotter than before. (The stretched portion is cooler,
has less resistance, and more current flows through the entire filament.)
Also, uneven filament temperature leads to uneven evaporation, and the
hotter parts of the filament become acceleratingly severe hot spots once
significant evaporation has occurred.

And if there is a lot of vibration just short of stretching the
filament, that will cause significant metal fatigue. I think that is more
of a problem with a hot filament than with a cold one.

Incandescent trouble lights seem to me to easily have their filaments
stretched out of shape or outright broken from impacts while they are on
and not while they are off.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

JohnR66 · Guest

<phil-news-nospam@ipal.net> wrote in message
news:gc302b02sf9@news2.newsguy.com...
[quote]On Wed, 1 Oct 2008 13:21:13 +0100 JB <nil@spam.net> wrote:

| "JohnR66" <nospam@att.net> wrote in message
| news:cNJEk.249543$102.177322@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
|>I bought these bulbs to replace the xtra vision bulbs I had in my head
|>lamps and the difference is noticable.
|> When my Mom>s OEM bulb blew in her Toyota, I installed a new set of low
|> beams and she said the difference really helped her night driving.
|
|> These are clear envelope halogen bulbs. They are quite costly ($50 per
set
|> in the US). I>d guess they are either over driven for more light at
|> reduced runtime or have an IR coating on the envelope that returns the
|> heat back to the filament for improved efficiency. I believe the
wattage
|> to be the same as OEM.
|
| They aren>t HIR (halogen-infrared) types in this case. These and the
Osram
| Silverstar or Nightbreaker types use a higher pressure gas fill (xenon
in
| this case) combined with a superb filament design to optimise lumen
output.
| The filaments operate close to the maximum possible temperature for
tungsten
| too, which increases efficacy. The downside is marginally reduced
service
| life.
| They are without a doubt the best non-HID auto headlamps available, and
| probably the single best improvement you can make to a car, (or in my
case
| motorcycle) for winter driving.

Are these the bulbs with the bluish tint, or are the bluish ones the HID?

I do notice some cars with a slight bluish tint in the headlights. SOME
of
them are brighter than normal. My father claims ALL the bluish ones are
WAY
brighter than normal. He seems to have extra sensitivity to blue, or else
I have less (but my night vision is much better than his, so this does not
work out consistent the way I understand it should).

--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to
ignorance |
| by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post
to |
| Usenet from these places, find another Usenet provider ASAP.
|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at
ipal.net) |
[/quote]
No, The Philips X-treme Power bulbs are clear. I would never use the blue
tinted junk. That is for looks only. I need the real deal because my night
vision is a bit below par.
Perhaps your dad saw HID or some high wattage tinted ones that a not legal.
John

TKM · Guest

"Don Klipstein" <don@manx.misty.com> wrote in message
news:slrngeajcl.8dr.don@manx.misty.com...
[quote]In article <6kk2m8F894ltU1@mid.individual.net>, JB wrote in part:

"JohnR66" <nospam@att.net> wrote in message
news:ce3Fk.251295$102.83303@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

I would think operating the filament so hot would make it prone to
failure
do to vibrations.

The metallurgy of these filaments is rather special as you would expect.
Actually though, tungsten filaments are more fragile when cold.

My experience tells me otherwise.

If I drop or bang an incandescent lamp that has long wires leading
to the filament, and do so while the filament is cold, I find it hard (but
not impossible) to break or stretch the filament without also bending the
wires leading to the filament.

When the filament is hot, I find it easy to stretch the filament out of
shape by so much as rough tapping of the lamp. Sometimes, worse still, I
end up stretching only part of the filament - and that can make the
unstretched portion hotter than before. (The stretched portion is cooler,
has less resistance, and more current flows through the entire filament.)
Also, uneven filament temperature leads to uneven evaporation, and the
hotter parts of the filament become acceleratingly severe hot spots once
significant evaporation has occurred.

And if there is a lot of vibration just short of stretching the
filament, that will cause significant metal fatigue. I think that is more
of a problem with a hot filament than with a cold one.

Incandescent trouble lights seem to me to easily have their filaments
stretched out of shape or outright broken from impacts while they are on
and not while they are off.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)
[/quote]
I don>t think its so much the stretching of the filament as it is the
shorting of the coils in the coiled-coil filament. When line voltage lamps,
particularly halogen, are moved or subjected to vibration, the coils bang
together and short circuit. That makes the voltage goes up on the remaining
length of filament which then fails or burns hotter shortening life. The
50PAR20 is particularly sensitive and requires very gentle handling when
aiming the fixture.

Terry McGowan

JB · Guest

"TKM" <nomail@no.net> wrote in message
news:K2hFk.58914$Mh5.726@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
[quote]
"Don Klipstein" <don@manx.misty.com> wrote in message
news:slrngeajcl.8dr.don@manx.misty.com...
In article <6kk2m8F894ltU1@mid.individual.net>, JB wrote in part:

"JohnR66" <nospam@att.net> wrote in message
news:ce3Fk.251295$102.83303@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

I would think operating the filament so hot would make it prone to
failure
do to vibrations.

The metallurgy of these filaments is rather special as you would expect.
Actually though, tungsten filaments are more fragile when cold.

My experience tells me otherwise.

If I drop or bang an incandescent lamp that has long wires leading
to the filament, and do so while the filament is cold, I find it hard
(but
not impossible) to break or stretch the filament without also bending the
wires leading to the filament.

When the filament is hot, I find it easy to stretch the filament out of
shape by so much as rough tapping of the lamp. Sometimes, worse still, I
end up stretching only part of the filament - and that can make the
unstretched portion hotter than before. (The stretched portion is
cooler,
has less resistance, and more current flows through the entire filament.)
Also, uneven filament temperature leads to uneven evaporation, and the
hotter parts of the filament become acceleratingly severe hot spots once
significant evaporation has occurred.

And if there is a lot of vibration just short of stretching the
filament, that will cause significant metal fatigue. I think that is
more
of a problem with a hot filament than with a cold one.

Incandescent trouble lights seem to me to easily have their filaments
stretched out of shape or outright broken from impacts while they are on
and not while they are off.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

I don>t think its so much the stretching of the filament as it is the
shorting of the coils in the coiled-coil filament. When line voltage
lamps, particularly halogen, are moved or subjected to vibration, the
coils bang together and short circuit. That makes the voltage goes up on
the remaining length of filament which then fails or burns hotter
shortening life. The 50PAR20 is particularly sensitive and requires very
gentle handling when aiming the fixture.

[/quote]
I really should have qualified my statement. I was referring LV halogen
filaments (<30V). These are very much more rigid then line voltage types and
rarely suffer coil to coil shorts in the way that the thinner, high voltage
types do.

JB


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