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Guest

US firms 'tried to lie' over GM crops, says EU

By Michael McCarthy, Environment Editor
14 October 2003

American biotech companies tried to lie to Europe in an attempt to
force genetically modified crops upon them, Margot Wallström, the
European environment commissioner, said yesterday.

Far from developing GM crops to solve the problem of starvation in the
world, as they claimed, the biotech companies did so to "solve
starvation amongst their shareholders", said the European Union>s
leading green politician.

Speaking to journalists in London, the 49-year-old Swede followed her
broadside over GM with an attack on the US over the so-called ghost
fleet of rusting and polluted American ships being sent to Britain for
dismantling, saying they should be kept in America.

She further suggested that the US government had been putting pressure
on Russia not to ratify the Kyoto protocol.

Mrs Wallström>s unusually outspoken remarks will add to the
ill-feeling between Europe and the US over genetic modification, which
has led to the American government launching a legal action through
the World Trade Organisation on the basis that European nations are
dragging their feet over GM crop authorisation.

Her comments raise the political stakes before the publication on
Thursday of Britain>s farm-scale trials of GM crops, which may provide
evidence of environmental damage that could lead to the crops being
banned.

At a lunch with journalists, the commissioner spoke of the "legitimate
concerns of European citizens and farmers and other groups about the
effects of GM crops on human health and the environment".

Asked if US biotech companies had chosen the wrong products to
introduce into Europe - meaning crops that were modified to take more
powerful weedkillers, rather than give any other benefit - she
replied: "Of course they have. Absolutely. They have to face that.
They have to realise that they have chosen the completely wrong
approach from the beginning.

"They tried to lie to people, and they tried to force it upon people.
It>s the wrong approach. You cannot force it upon Europe. So I hope
they have learnt a lesson from this, especially when they now try to
argue that this will solve the problems of starvation in the world and
so on. But come on ... it was to solve starvation amongst
shareholders, not the developing world."

Jim Webster · Guest

<marcus@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:ko9movg3mmh6ucjmkrn4v38aqa3qkr825q@4ax.com...
[quote]
US firms 'tried to lie' over GM crops, says EU

[/quote]
they either lied, or they didn>t. If you try to lie, it means you
inadvertently tell the truth by accident

Jim Webster

Guest

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 07:06:11 +0100, "Jim Webster"
<Jim@feeswerve.spam.co.uk> wrote:

[quote]they either lied, or they didn>t. If you try to lie, it means you
inadvertently tell the truth by accident
[/quote]
They definitely lied.

Jim Webster · Guest

<marcus@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:nq0rovg2q1o1qfetk01f6pf3qpqv9f8133@4ax.com...
[quote]
On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 07:06:11 +0100, "Jim Webster"
Jim@feeswerve.spam.co.uk> wrote:

they either lied, or they didn>t. If you try to lie, it means you
inadvertently tell the truth by accident

They definitely lied.
[/quote]
exactly how

please quote what the company actually said, not what some green
organisation says that the company said

Jim Webster
[quote]
[/quote]

Bruce Sinclair · Guest

In article <bmg8bt$r6j$4@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Jim Webster" <Jim@feeswerve.spam.co.uk> wrote:
[quote]marcus@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:ko9movg3mmh6ucjmkrn4v38aqa3qkr825q@4ax.com...
US firms 'tried to lie' over GM crops, says EU
they either lied, or they didn>t. If you try to lie, it means you
inadvertently tell the truth by accident
[/quote]
... or were caught ? ... watergate anyone ? :)

Bruce

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.

Jim Webster · Guest

"Bruce Sinclair" <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> wrote in
message news:jdnjb.1256$ws.120456@news02.tsnz.net...
[quote]In article <bmg8bt$r6j$4@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Jim Webster"
Jim@feeswerve.spam.co.uk> wrote:
marcus@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:ko9movg3mmh6ucjmkrn4v38aqa3qkr825q@4ax.com...
US firms 'tried to lie' over GM crops, says EU
they either lied, or they didn>t. If you try to lie, it means you
inadvertently tell the truth by accident

.. or were caught ? ... watergate anyone ? :)
[/quote]
but no one has actually shown what the lies were, can anyone provide quotes
from what the companies said, not what green organisations say that they
said?

Jim Webster
[quote]
Bruce

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.[/quote]

Guest

On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 20:05:46 +0100, "Jim Webster"
<Jim@feeswerve.spam.co.uk> wrote:

[quote]exactly how
[/quote]
They said that GM crops would help feed the poor in Africa.

As any sensible person knows, the lack of food for the poor is because
of lack of political will to solve the problem and lack of
distribution mechanisms to get the food to the people who need it. GM
will do nothing to solve these issues...

regards
Marcus

Jim Webster · Guest

<marcus@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:hbtsov0ph4grjurv7lm2gumqk6ri1kc6qg@4ax.com...
[quote]
On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 20:05:46 +0100, "Jim Webster"
Jim@feeswerve.spam.co.uk> wrote:

exactly how

They said that GM crops would help feed the poor in Africa.
[/quote]
where did they say that, let us see a monsanto press release or something
from one of the companies, not just 'they say'

Jim Webster

Guest

On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 17:26:37 +0100, "Jim Webster"
<Jim@feeswerve.spam.co.uk> wrote:

[quote]where did they say that, let us see a monsanto press release or something
from one of the companies, not just 'they say'
[/quote]
Plenty of GM PR on that topic here:

http://www.monsantoafrica.com/monsantoafrica/partnership/tech_cooperation.html

For example, this nonsense:

"African farmers may soon have a sweet potato that protects itself
from disease, and plays a critical role in the fight against hunger."

regards
Marcus

Jim Webster · Guest

<marcus@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:tsn7pv492cm9f66uege0dm1e27t4m8j03i@4ax.com...
[quote]
On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 17:26:37 +0100, "Jim Webster"
Jim@feeswerve.spam.co.uk> wrote:

where did they say that, let us see a monsanto press release or something
from one of the companies, not just 'they say'

Plenty of GM PR on that topic here:

http://www.monsantoafrica.com/monsantoafrica/partnership/tech_cooperation.ht[/quote]
ml
[quote]
[/quote]
Interesting

Technology Cooperation Backgrounder
For more than ten years, Monsanto has worked in collaboration with public
agricultural researchers around the world to improve crops that are
particularly important in developing countries, including sweet potato,
rice, mustard, papaya and potato. As a partner in the projects described
below, Monsanto shares fundamental scientific data; technology, including
genes and traits; know-how to move technology into crops important for food
security; advice on environmental stewardship and information on food
safety; and licenses to patented technologies - all to develop crops that
can produce more food, use less pesticide, and improve people>s health
around the world. All of these partnerships to build products for
subsistence farmers include assessments and studies to ensure food and
environmental safety.
Then in mentions the partners they work with and the work they were doing
Sweetpotato
Kenyan Agricultural Research Institute (KARI)
Rice Genome: Monsanto announced in April 2000 that it was making its draft
rice genome sequence data available at no charge to the public researchers
involved in the International Rice Genome Sequencing Project (IRGSP)
Papaya:
the Papaya Biotechnology Network of Southeast Asia was formed to develop
papaya with PRSV resistance and enhance the region>s capacity to develop and
deploy other transgenic crops in the future. Formally launched in 1998 by
ISAAA, the Network includes national institutes in Philippines Malaysia,
Thailand, Vietnam, and Indonesia, and is supported by technology and
training from Monsanto.
"Golden" crops: Monsanto is working with the not-for-profit Tata Energy
Research Institute (TERI. Michigan State University>s Ag Biotech Support
Project (ABSP) is another major partner in this project, which has funding
support from the US Agency for International Development.
Potato: In 1991, Monsanto and the Center for Advanced Studies (CINVESTAV) -
a government research laboratory in Irapuato, Mexico -

an awful lot of government bodies here, which seems to indicate that all
this talk about the 3rd world being against GM is somewhat specious

[quote]For example, this nonsense:

"African farmers may soon have a sweet potato that protects itself
from disease, and plays a critical role in the fight against hunger."

[/quote]
hmm

I can believe you, or I can believe the Kenyan Agricultural Research
Institute (KARI)
Wonder which I>ll choose

Jim Webster
[quote]regards
Marcus
[/quote]

Bruce Sinclair · Guest

In article <bmlc74$dai$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Jim Webster" <Jim@feeswerve.spam.co.uk> wrote:
[quote]
"Bruce Sinclair" <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> wrote in
message news:jdnjb.1256$ws.120456@news02.tsnz.net...
In article <bmg8bt$r6j$4@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Jim Webster"
Jim@feeswerve.spam.co.uk> wrote:
marcus@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:ko9movg3mmh6ucjmkrn4v38aqa3qkr825q@4ax.com...
US firms 'tried to lie' over GM crops, says EU
they either lied, or they didn>t. If you try to lie, it means you
inadvertently tell the truth by accident

.. or were caught ? ... watergate anyone ? :)

but no one has actually shown what the lies were, can anyone provide quotes
from what the companies said, not what green organisations say that they
said?
[/quote]
I make no staement as to whether there were lies or no. Surely the
proof of lies involves getting caught telling porkies ?

Bruce

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.

Jim Webster · Guest

"Bruce Sinclair" <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> wrote in
message news:Ge3lb.2163$ws.211115@news02.tsnz.net...
[quote]In article <bmlc74$dai$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Jim Webster"
Jim@feeswerve.spam.co.uk> wrote:

"Bruce Sinclair" <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> wrote in
message news:jdnjb.1256$ws.120456@news02.tsnz.net...
In article <bmg8bt$r6j$4@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Jim Webster"
Jim@feeswerve.spam.co.uk> wrote:
marcus@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:ko9movg3mmh6ucjmkrn4v38aqa3qkr825q@4ax.com...
US firms 'tried to lie' over GM crops, says EU
they either lied, or they didn>t. If you try to lie, it means you
inadvertently tell the truth by accident

.. or were caught ? ... watergate anyone ? :)

but no one has actually shown what the lies were, can anyone provide
quotes
from what the companies said, not what green organisations say that they
said?

I make no staement as to whether there were lies or no. Surely the
proof of lies involves getting caught telling porkies ?
[/quote]
did the teachers who taught my mother that the atom was the smallest thing
that existed and was indivisible lie? Remember she was at school in the late
30s early 40s

Jim Webster

Bruce Sinclair · Guest

In article <bn2n56$rnu$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Jim Webster" <Jim@feeswerve.spam.co.uk> wrote:
[quote]"Bruce Sinclair" <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> wrote in
message news:Ge3lb.2163$ws.211115@news02.tsnz.net...
In article <bmlc74$dai$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Jim Webster"
Jim@feeswerve.spam.co.uk> wrote:
"Bruce Sinclair" <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> wrote in
message news:jdnjb.1256$ws.120456@news02.tsnz.net...
In article <bmg8bt$r6j$4@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Jim Webster"
Jim@feeswerve.spam.co.uk> wrote:
marcus@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:ko9movg3mmh6ucjmkrn4v38aqa3qkr825q@4ax.com...
US firms 'tried to lie' over GM crops, says EU
they either lied, or they didn>t. If you try to lie, it means you
inadvertently tell the truth by accident

.. or were caught ? ... watergate anyone ? :)

but no one has actually shown what the lies were, can anyone provide
quotes
from what the companies said, not what green organisations say that they
said?
I make no staement as to whether there were lies or no. Surely the
proof of lies involves getting caught telling porkies ?

did the teachers who taught my mother that the atom was the smallest thing
that existed and was indivisible lie? Remember she was at school in the late
30s early 40s
[/quote]
Depends ... did they know that what they said was wrong when they
said it ?
In my opinion the chem teachers that I had that had a different answer
to the "structure of matter" every year certainly lied. I would have
accepted something like ... "this is wrong but useful". Instead, we
had "this is the truth" - then the next year ... "last years truth
isn>t right, here is the real truth".
To me, lying implies a knowledge of the truth ... otherwise it>s
called "bullshitting" or similar ... and fool on us that believe that
without question :)

The thing not being talked about of course is the old "plausible
deniability" excuse ... where the (usually) marketing guy says things
that are wrong (often technical things) without knowing they are
wrong. The technical guys know, however ... but the company "gets off"
the fibbing accusations using PD.
Is that lying ? Technically probably not. Is that lying ion spirit ?
... I>d say probably.

Bruce

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.

Jim Webster · Guest

"Bruce Sinclair" <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> wrote in
message news:5pllb.2278$ws.229013@news02.tsnz.net...
[quote]In article <bn2n56$rnu$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Jim Webster"
Jim@feeswerve.spam.co.uk> wrote:
"Bruce Sinclair" <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> wrote in
message news:Ge3lb.2163$ws.211115@news02.tsnz.net...
In article <bmlc74$dai$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Jim Webster"
Jim@feeswerve.spam.co.uk> wrote:
"Bruce Sinclair" <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> wrote
in
message news:jdnjb.1256$ws.120456@news02.tsnz.net...
In article <bmg8bt$r6j$4@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Jim Webster"
Jim@feeswerve.spam.co.uk> wrote:
marcus@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:ko9movg3mmh6ucjmkrn4v38aqa3qkr825q@4ax.com...
US firms 'tried to lie' over GM crops, says EU
they either lied, or they didn>t. If you try to lie, it means you
inadvertently tell the truth by accident

.. or were caught ? ... watergate anyone ? :)

but no one has actually shown what the lies were, can anyone provide
quotes
from what the companies said, not what green organisations say that
they
said?
I make no staement as to whether there were lies or no. Surely the
proof of lies involves getting caught telling porkies ?

did the teachers who taught my mother that the atom was the smallest
thing
that existed and was indivisible lie? Remember she was at school in the
late
30s early 40s

Depends ... did they know that what they said was wrong when they
said it ?
[/quote]

look at the dates. She was taught before the splitting of the atom was
known. It was a secret. Basically is the information isn>t available, and
you state what is thought to be true at the time, how can you be lying?

Jim Webster

Bruce Sinclair · Guest

In article <bn5ar5$1sp$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Jim Webster" <Jim@feeswerve.spam.co.uk> wrote:
[quote]"Bruce Sinclair" <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> wrote in
message news:5pllb.2278$ws.229013@news02.tsnz.net...
In article <bn2n56$rnu$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Jim Webster"
Jim@feeswerve.spam.co.uk> wrote:
"Bruce Sinclair" <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> wrote in
message news:Ge3lb.2163$ws.211115@news02.tsnz.net...
In article <bmlc74$dai$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Jim Webster"
Jim@feeswerve.spam.co.uk> wrote:
"Bruce Sinclair" <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> wrote
in
message news:jdnjb.1256$ws.120456@news02.tsnz.net...
In article <bmg8bt$r6j$4@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Jim Webster"
Jim@feeswerve.spam.co.uk> wrote:
marcus@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:ko9movg3mmh6ucjmkrn4v38aqa3qkr825q@4ax.com...
US firms 'tried to lie' over GM crops, says EU
they either lied, or they didn>t. If you try to lie, it means you
inadvertently tell the truth by accident

.. or were caught ? ... watergate anyone ? :)

but no one has actually shown what the lies were, can anyone provide
quotes
from what the companies said, not what green organisations say that
they
said?
I make no staement as to whether there were lies or no. Surely the
proof of lies involves getting caught telling porkies ?

did the teachers who taught my mother that the atom was the smallest
thing
that existed and was indivisible lie? Remember she was at school in the
late
30s early 40s

Depends ... did they know that what they said was wrong when they
said it ?
look at the dates. She was taught before the splitting of the atom was
known.
[/quote]
... tho some had theorised that it was possible. Perhaps ..... "the
atom is currently the smallest thing known" would have been closer ?
Seems to me that anyone teaching science ought to say "this is the
current theory" and/or "we currently believe this to be true".
Uncertainty should be part of science from the start.

[quote]It was a secret. Basically is the information isn>t available, and
you state what is thought to be true at the time, how can you be lying?
[/quote]
Quite so .. that still leaves the possibility of plausible deniability
though :) :)

Bruce

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.


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