Science and Technology news... :: View topic - TOBS-Genesis: Biblical use of the term "Day"

BearMan · Guest

[quote]"cactus" wrote:
Basically it>s forbidden to pronounce any actual name of G-d.
[/quote]
Forbidden by who? Why? Where?

cactus · Guest

"BearMan" <Al@PraiseTheDay.net> wrote in message
news:61U4b.264$vj4.42635@nnrp1.ptd.net...

[quote]"cactus" wrote:
Basically it>s forbidden to pronounce any actual name of G-d.
[/quote]
Forbidden by who? Why? Where?

Jewish tradition prohibits pronouncing at least the 4-letter name (YHVH). I
am perhaps over-generalizing. I>m asking rabbis about the others. More as
I learn.

cactus · Guest

"ResLight" <reslight@reject.earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:flT4b.20640$Om1.678@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
[quote]
"cactus" <be131344@hotmal.com> wrote in message
news:9CB4b.4048$tw6.411@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Basically it>s forbidden to pronounce any actual name of G-d.

This is man>s forbidding, however, not Yahweh>s forbidding.

1 Kings 18:21 - Elijah came near to all the people, and said, How long go
you limping between the two sides? if Yahweh is God, follow him; but if
Baal
[Lord], then follow him. The people answered him not a word.
[/quote]
Post-Second Temple Jews (at least) would say "adonoi" when reading that text
in synagogue.

[quote]I find it next to ridiculous to think that Elijah really said adon or
adonai
[or some form thereof] here instead of actually saying the name of the
true
God. The same can be said for many, many, other scriptures.
[/quote]
I have no idea how Elijah pronounced the name. They knew how to pronounce
it back when the Temple was standing, but generally the 4 letter name was
pronounced only by the High Priest only in the Holy of Holies, only on Yom
Kippur and we>ve lost the pronunciation.

Christians and Jews differ on this one.

Joseph Malik · Guest

Catcus said: I have no idea how Elijah pronounced the name. They knew how
to pronounce
it back when the Temple was standing, but generally the 4 letter name was
pronounced only by the High Priest only in the Holy of Holies, only on Yom
Kippur and we>ve lost the pronunciation.

Catcus,

What makes anyone think that the pronunciation is critical? Names are seldom
pronounced the same in different languages or dialects anyway. Is there a
biblical rule somewhere that this name must be pronounced in some exact way
or else? It is not pronunciation but use that matters and it was placed
there for that reason. And I believe that it is only an assumption that this
name was only pronounced by the High Priest. It appeared in scripture
thousands of times placed there by many prophets who would also have read it
and intended for it to be read. Are we to assume that such prophets wrote
the name but never pronounced it? Where do you get your facts?

Joseph

BearMan · Guest

[quote]"cactus" wrote:
Jewish tradition prohibits pronouncing at least the 4-letter name (YHVH).
[/quote]
Tradition is hardly an authoritive basis from which to establish a law.
Why would Jewish tradition forbid the speaking of Gods name?

cactus · Guest

"BearMan" <Al@PraiseTheDay.net> wrote in message
news:koe5b.421$vj4.64943@nnrp1.ptd.net...
[quote]"cactus" wrote:
Jewish tradition prohibits pronouncing at least the 4-letter name (YHVH).

Tradition is hardly an authoritive basis from which to establish a law.
[/quote]
I think that tradition can become a basis for law. English common law for
example.

[quote]Why would Jewish tradition forbid the speaking of Gods name?
[/quote]
I don>t know the source of the rule, but it may arise out of Judaisms pagan
roots, where saying the name of a deity could invoke its power. Judaism did
its best to reject all pagan practices.

There>s also the Third Commandment, which prohibits false oaths. The sages
discourage any oaths, even true ones, except in a court of law. In Jewish
canon courts (beit din), oaths are strongly discouraged, and only used on
demand by a litigant (per Hirsch Chumash).

I>m trying to find out why it isn>t pronounced when reading Torah. It>s a
very deep tradition; When reading the Hebrew, I just use "adonai"
automatically when I see the Name spelled out.. I just discovered that I
actually read it that way.

I>ll let you know when I find out the basis. This is interesting.

cactus · Guest

"BearMan" <Al@PraiseTheDay.net> wrote in message
news:koe5b.421$vj4.64943@nnrp1.ptd.net...
[quote]"cactus" wrote:
Jewish tradition prohibits pronouncing at least the 4-letter name (YHVH).
[/quote]
Tradition is hardly an authoritive basis from which to establish a law.
Why would Jewish tradition forbid the speaking of Gods name?

This just in; it seems that the prohibition dates from Talmudic times, so
the prophets may well have pronounced it.

This site says it better than I could. http://www.jewfaq.org/name.htm

So I guess my answer now is "We used to pronounce the 4-letter name, but
don>t any more."

JTEM · Guest

"BearMan" <Al@PraiseTheDay.net> wrote

[quote]Why would Jewish tradition forbid the speaking
of Gods name?
[/quote]
Vowels.

Specifically: Nobody in Canaan even imagined such a thing
as vowels until well after the stories & prayers that would
become the bible had begun to form.

With no vowels to tell them how to pronounce the name of
their God, they dare not speak it for fear of offending the
all-mighty with a mispronunciation.

A more modern example is the "Dome of the Rock," the
Islamic Mosque located over the site of the temple mound.
A sign warns people (or "Jews") not to enter the Mosque
because nobody alive today knows where the Holy of Holies,
the resting place of the Ark, was located, and to tread there
would be a sin (or worse).

JTEM · Guest

Oops...

"JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote

[quote]"BearMan" <Al@PraiseTheDay.net> wrote

Why would Jewish tradition forbid the speaking
of Gods name?

Vowels.
[/quote]
I>m speaking of the WRITTEN word here.

The way it was explained to me is that those early written
Semitic languages, not unlike ancient Egyptian (which is
closely related to Semitic), are all based on (mostly based on...
partly based on...) word roots. The same roots might be used
over & over again for different words, with vowel
vocalizations distinguishing one word from the next. When it
came time to start writing things down, what the ancients
did was recorded what was standardized (the consonants),
leaving out the ever changing and oh so confusing bits (the
vowels).

Many centuries later, as the Hebrew identity and its new
religion was forming, they could not say with absolute
certainty how "yhwh" should be pronounced.

Nori Otaku · Guest

BearMan wrote on Wed, 03 Sep 2003 04:48:16 +0000:

[quote]"cactus" wrote:
Jewish tradition prohibits pronouncing at least the 4-letter name (YHVH).

Tradition is hardly an authoritive basis from which to establish a law.
[/quote]
Agreed.

[quote]Why would Jewish tradition forbid the speaking of Gods name?
[/quote]
They believed, in the QBLH tradition, that speaking a name was a
summoning, and that it was dangerous and sacreligious to summon God.

--
NoriOtaku :: Change 'spam' to 'com' to send mail

BearMan · Guest

Nori,

But does God not incline his people to use his name?
Does he not reference frequently the importance of making his name known?

I will have to dig it up but I remember a really interesting article that breaks down the actual hebrew words used in the commandments specifically in reference to the one not to use God>s name in vain. The word translated as vain actually included in it>s definitions blotting out our making into nothing. The point made then was that by NOT using God>s name a person was violating the command as much as one who threw it around disrespectfully. I>ll see if I can locate that article if you are interested.

cactus · Guest

"BearMan" <Al@PraiseTheDay.net> wrote in message
news:jht5b.517$vj4.77150@nnrp1.ptd.net...
Nori,

[quote]But does God not incline his people to use his name?
Does he not reference frequently the importance of making his name known?
[/quote]
Not in Tanach that I can think of. The New Testament might include
something, but I don>t know much about that it all.

[quote]I will have to dig it up but I remember a really interesting article that
breaks down the actual hebrew words used in the commandments specifically in[/quote]
reference to the one not to use God>s name in
[quote]vain. The word translated as vain actually included in it>s definitions
blotting out our making into nothing. The point made then was that by NOT[/quote]
using God>s name a person was violating the command
[quote]as much as one who threw it around disrespectfully. I>ll see if I can
locate that article if you are interested.[/quote]

Definitely interested.

I posted a related reply on this thread yesterday at 11:56 PM Pacific Time.
I found an article also, which is listed there.

firstjois · Guest

: > Tradition is hardly an authoritive basis from which to establish a law.
:
: Agreed.

Poof

Nori Otaku · Guest

BearMan wrote on Wed, 03 Sep 2003 21:44:47 +0000:

[quote]Nori,

But does God not incline his people to use his name? Does he not
reference frequently the importance of making his name known?

I will have to dig it up but I remember a really interesting article
that breaks down the actual hebrew words used in the commandments
specifically in reference to the one not to use God>s name in vain. The
word translated as vain actually included in it>s definitions blotting
out our making into nothing. The point made then was that by NOT using
God>s name a person was violating the command as much as one who threw
it around disrespectfully. I>ll see if I can locate that article if you
are interested.
[/quote]
Did I say anything about wether or not it was a command from God? I
simply answered the question as to why Jews don>t utter God>s name. I
made no representation as to its accuracy.

However, I strongly suggest that Jews with thousands of years of tradition
behind them know more about thier belief system than either of us.

--
NoriOtaku :: Change 'spam' to 'com' to send mail

Terry/Anti · Guest

"BearMan" <Al@PraiseTheDay.net> wrote in message
news:jht5b.517$vj4.77150@nnrp1.ptd.net...
Nori,

But does God not incline his people to use his name?
Does he not reference frequently the importance of making his name known?

I will have to dig it up but I remember a really interesting article that
breaks down the actual hebrew words used in the commandments specifically in
reference to the one not to use God>s name in vain. The word translated as
vain actually included in it>s definitions blotting out our making into
nothing. The point made then was that by NOT using God>s name a person was
violating the command as much as one who threw it around disrespectfully.
I>ll see if I can locate that article if you are interested.

From Strong>s
07723 shav' {shawv} or shav {shav}
from the same as 07722 in the sense of desolating; TWOT - 2338a; n m
AV - vain 22, vanity 22, false 5, lying 2, falsely 1, lies 1; 53
1) emptiness, vanity, falsehood 1a) emptiness, nothingness, vanity 1b)
emptiness of speech, lying 1c) worthlessness (of conduct)
I see nothing about blotting out, but vanity would seem to fit the JWs use
of the false name Jehovah for the name of God.

Gramps
Move the @ ahead of hot to email me.


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