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Philip Deitiker · Guest

We have two lines of thoughts here that appear to diverge in
opposing directions. Lorenzo with african-raft peoples and
Doug Weller with enclosing glaciers.

The basis of Lorenzo>s stipulation is that the skulls dated
to 10 kya in south american appear to be african in origin.
Dougs contention is that the 'out of siberia' hypothesis
proposing the Siber-alaskan land bridge, Beringia, would be
a preferred or primary used land route.

There is at the moment no genetic support for Lorenzo>s
idea, and questionable support for Doug>s, no matter how
classic the hypothesis is.

I would like to define that the most likely explanation
of cranial variation in the early new world is the likely
result of several phenomena.

First. The Ainu. The genetic evidence indicates that the
Ainu are a non-SinoMongolian admix of preagrarian islandic
and coastal west pacific peoples who originated roughly from
the regions of malay and papua new guinea based on current
genetic makeup of those peoples. The Ainu thus have alot of
'austroloid' genetic character, and that character is far
more associated with 'Melanistic Oceanians' MO than either
korean, mongolian, siberians. This probably due in part
because of the connection between ryukyuans and the Ainu,
and the fact that ryukyuan culture is essential a borderline
tropical culture that would have maintain the similar
selective restraints as africa.

Second. A number of haplotypes in the Ainu reveal that the
Islandic haplotypes and coastal 'current' haplotpyes of
china mixed well into the past, but that the mixture
(recombination) of western eurasian/north african/middle
eastern [WNM] haplotpyes occurred more recently. This
suggest that while the Ainu may be an admixture,now, but in
the more recent past they may have lived as separate groups
in Japan and proximal reagions of asia.

Conclusion is that the 'melanistic' population of
ryukyu/taiwan/points south not only could reach the northern
most regions of the Japanese (peninsular during LGM)
islands, but did reach these regions.

Both types [MO derived and WNM] of allelotypes are found in
great propensity in south america; however the window in
which they probably left is between 18 and 10 kya, thus this
would be soon after in the contact during the upper
paleolithic/insipient Jomon period. IOW the first waves of
native americans probably where not admixtures of WNM/MO.
Thus it is likely that the first wave of paleoamerinds were
MO with possibly a small admix of WNM. The evidence of
pebble culture in south america and would corroborate that
this could be either the islandic culture or the coastal
culture (or admix of the 2).

A third line of evidence reveals that 20 kya skeletal
material from Japan has been considered similar to 68 to 113
kya material from southern china, which is very comparable
to certain modern african cranial. Thus the idea that
'negroid-australoid' type morphologies is not exactly true.
Japanese have noted two transitions in Japan, the transition
from about ~11 kya and from 2.2 kya. The current makeup of
Japan and Ryukyu showing large amounts of recent continental
gene flow mask that phenotypic appearance of pre-Yayoi
Japanese and I strongly suspect that there was a gradient of
WNM/MO phenotypes in Japan with sinitic similarities peaking
along inner coastal regions most close to the continent as a
result of suggested gene and cultural flow from asia during
the Jomon. During the period before 10 kya I would strongly
suggest that the phenotypic character of Japan was more
of that seen in greater melanistic oceanians and much less
sino-mongolian than seen today. Every bit of information
that I see, paleontological/genetic/historic suggests this
is the case.

Thus there should be little doubt that the northwestern
pacific was capable of producing australoid like skeletal
material, the question is did they and how.

Now we switch to dealing specifically with the beringia
issue. Dar Habyl has kindly posted an article dealing with
the cultural transitions in Japan and has also discussed
cultural flow in the tran-biakal region on Molecular
Anthropology. The break between 18 and 19 kya is suggestive
of a period of exclusion as a result of climactic, likely
related to the LGM. Recent evidence has also shown that
evidence for migrations into far eastern siberia is first
evident 15 kya via overland, and again glacial evidence in
canada is non-permissive until after 13 kya.

From the standpoint of the MO population, while I could
argue that Doug>s idea of people sitting on land would be
pushed by glaciers into the new world. I have to ask the
basic question why would glaciers push the MO population.

1. The were great sea travelers, look at all the islands
they settled, look at the paleolithic evidence in Japan.
They were not sea-lackeys by any means.

2. Glacial onset is slow, at most snow might be added at 10
feet per year, and boat traveler with good current and wind
can travel 10 feet per second.

3. If a culture was using boats as a means of gathering
nutrition from maritime resources why would they waste their
time traveling on land or hassling with glacial boundaries.

Bringing the two lines of contention together. The first
beleivable evidence for nascent paleo amerinds is ~13 to 15
kya. The incipient Jomon begins in Northern Japan 12.5 kya.
The connection that bridges this culture to the soluterean
tool groups of western eurasia is in the trans-baikal region
and if you read what Dar post appears 18 kya. There are
studies in Japan that suggest that the transition begins to
insipient Jomon about 16 kya, and some artefacts postulate
it first arrived 15 kya.

If these were really MO living in northern Japan or were
these seasonal maritime/coastal foragers far up the NW
pacific coast. If so might they have come to hunting camps
along the coast and found them occupied by better armed
peoples from WNM that they could not communicate with,
forcing them to choose encampments farther north or offshore
[deal with this later]. It may have been the encampments and
conflicts between melanistic maritime and immigrants with
better tool technologies in the beringia region that forces
these boat travelers around the physical barriers. If they
were seasonal travelers as I mentioned they might have
followed food stocks and seasonal temperature clines
southward to meso and south american avoiding hostile
climate.

The complexity of the genetic data supports this however
with a warning. The cline in genetic traits in the new world
could be the result of different preferential settlement
(WNM versus MO preferences) or it could be the result of
diffusion or recent waves pushing peoples in various
directions. One indicator of preferential initial settlement
is that HLA diversification in the southern Amerind
population is extremely suggestive that the regions was not
settled as an admix, but a very homogenous population, that
then underwent rapid heterozygous selection for new alleles.
This is not apparent in north america or mesoamerica. Thus
it appears that the south american population was admixed
later and initially settled as MO population which then
migrated and diffused northward.

Again _If_ south america was settled first and if the most
similar alleles are in the Taiwan Abo-Ryukyuans-Ainu, then
the conclusion is that they had well developed maritime
capability and any stay in Beringia would have been
optional, may indirectly have been an attractant, but was
not the major modality of how they got where these so-called
australoid-negroid skulls are found.

[I am sure I am going to have 50 screamers here trying to
correct me on every trivial fact that they deem is wrong, so
be it, Seppo will of course scream to MB because his beer is
hot]

The last bit I would like to present is the Aluetian chain,
in which more recent maps show submerged island between the
kamchatka the current eastward end. It is entirely plausible
that the MO foragers were aware of these islands before the
colonization of the new world. The appearance of clovis
associated peoples in kamchatka and beringia may have forced
them to encamp on these islands and fortuitous events may
have forced them into the new world. These islands are
seldomly considered by archaeologist but maps of mtDNA
haplotypes reveal the current genetic makeup of the peoples
on these islands differ from current alaskans.

Conclusions.
There are two basic lines of contention here that I have
to deal with. There first line that Lorenzo is backing is
that beringia was the only pacific path, and the
australo/negroid peoples had niether opportunity or means to
reach the new world via the north pacific corridor. I refute
that contention, there was both opportunity, manifested in
cultural similarity and in genetics along the western
pacific to suggest they had access to the corridor, and in
fact were exploiting regions proximal to that corridor.
The second contention is that beringia is the only
plausible way, in actuality it seems to have been a way but
not the only plausible way and it may have been optional.
The degree of maritime advancement in melanesians can only
be guess. It is plausible they rode favorable currents all
the way to Canada and then headed southeast. Within this
contention is that glaciers pushed people over, but the
appearance of clovis culture is abrupt and likely the result
of larger scale immigrations at a time when glaciation was
receding. As a result it appears there was an open corridor
for to beringia, that the new world may have been more of an
attractant than a push, and finally the most likely push
would be to pervious peoples the appearance of later
arrivers in those areas with more advanced tool technologies
most of all the cultural clines that are in the process of
being developed.
I should note that the density of the later types of
haplotypes and allelotypes is diminished in the SA lowlands,
the culture of MO is probably more suited for this (as boat
requires extensive woodworking capability and thus takes
better advantage of the lack of stone tool building
resources) and that in south american the WNM type haps
appear in highland populations at greater frequency (though
I need to do some reanalysis). This is suggestive that the
survival of the firstwave amerinds and second wave amerinds
is a result of the differential genetic and cultural
selection in different areas. It gives the opportunity to
admix before elimination. It is also plausible that the MO
admixed in asia with WNM derived peoples giving them both an
open land capability and adding an enhanced maritime
capability which allowed some groups to travel more directly
south. Kenniwick establishes to me that the southward
movement of the MO/WNM admixes were likely pushed or diluted
south versus traveled south immediately.

There are not alot of absolutes in science, only those
that can be verified under vigorous questioning are
absolutes. Admixes and unseen migrations become more obvious
when more data appears, and one has to keep an open mind
about all possible scenarios. However, there is a point with
the presence of positive data for one scenario and absense
of positive data for the converse scenarios lends on to
refute the converse scenarios.
The african allelotypes of course are diverse and not all
are typed, the south americans are novel, and there could be
in all of this some tribe bearing a allelotype that is
discovered specifically in africa. However, then you have to
resolve the allelotype with haplotypes, is this a parallel
recombinatorial event or as a result of migration. The point
we are now is that the south american dataset is so similar
in terms of haplotypes and allelotypes to the Ainu, Japanese
and other siberians, that one would seriously need some more
pronounced proof, like other allelotypes or haplotypes from
that same african population to change the bias toward east
to west migration versus west to east. Again, right now, we
are not even looking at evidence for a single co-shared
[specific to african and south americans] allele, but that
doesn>t mean anything because very few african populations
have been typed (for instance I have not a single bit of
genetic evidence from angola). So the conclusion is not
absolute, however the counter conclusion that
Negroid/Australoids made it to the new world is also not
supported, and in science one tends to proport that which
can be supported.
Conversely the Beringia idea is supportable but it is not
an absolute, again uncertainty in africa could be a reason,
but the fact that south american HLA patterns are overloaded
with west pacific rim dweller allelotypes and haplotypes is
extremely suggestive of other possible modalities. This in
not absolute either, but it suffices to refute the neccesity
of climatic push models for explaining at least some of the
migrations.

I just want to make it clear that refuting a 'neccesary
arguement' is different from refuting an argument. Lorenzo>s
argument implies the neccesary argument that negroid
australoids could not make it to the north pacific corridor.
As a result the best path is from africa, which cannot be
refuted, but is not proportable either. [Although I still
reserve the right to poke fun of Lorenzo 'gilligan' Love>s
rafting africans].

Lorenzo L. Love · Guest

Philip Deitiker wrote:
[quote]We have two lines of thoughts here that appear to diverge in
opposing directions. Lorenzo with african-raft peoples and
Doug Weller with enclosing glaciers.

The basis of Lorenzo>s stipulation is that the skulls dated
to 10 kya in south american appear to be african in origin.
Dougs contention is that the 'out of siberia' hypothesis
proposing the Siber-alaskan land bridge, Beringia, would be
a preferred or primary used land route.

There is at the moment no genetic support for Lorenzo>s
idea, and questionable support for Doug>s, no matter how
classic the hypothesis is.
[/quote]
You want to tell us what genetic support there is for the Lagoa Santa
remains coming from anywhere?

[more attempts to justify his pet theory that everyone came through
Japan snipped]

[quote]Conclusions.
There are two basic lines of contention here that I have
to deal with. There first line that Lorenzo is backing is
that beringia was the only pacific path,
[/quote]
Making stuff up again. I never said that.

[quote]and the
australo/negroid peoples had niether opportunity or means to
reach the new world via the north pacific corridor. I refute
that contention, there was both opportunity, manifested in
cultural similarity and in genetics along the western
pacific to suggest they had access to the corridor, and in
fact were exploiting regions proximal to that corridor.
The second contention is that beringia is the only
plausible way, in actuality it seems to have been a way but
not the only plausible way and it may have been optional.
The degree of maritime advancement in melanesians can only
be guess.
[/quote]
What is the maritime advancement of ancient Africans?

[quote]It is plausible they rode favorable currents all
the way to Canada and then headed southeast.
[/quote]
We know that currents are favorable for Africa to Brazil crossings.

[quote]Within this
contention is that glaciers pushed people over, but the
appearance of clovis culture is abrupt and likely the result
of larger scale immigrations at a time when glaciation was
receding. As a result it appears there was an open corridor
for to beringia, that the new world may have been more of an
attractant than a push, and finally the most likely push
would be to pervious peoples the appearance of later
arrivers in those areas with more advanced tool technologies
most of all the cultural clines that are in the process of
being developed.
I should note that the density of the later types of
haplotypes and allelotypes is diminished in the SA lowlands,
the culture of MO is probably more suited for this (as boat
requires extensive woodworking capability and thus takes
better advantage of the lack of stone tool building
resources) and that in south american the WNM type haps
appear in highland populations at greater frequency (though
I need to do some reanalysis). This is suggestive that the
survival of the firstwave amerinds and second wave amerinds
is a result of the differential genetic and cultural
selection in different areas. It gives the opportunity to
admix before elimination. It is also plausible that the MO
admixed in asia with WNM derived peoples giving them both an
open land capability and adding an enhanced maritime
capability which allowed some groups to travel more directly
south. Kenniwick establishes to me that the southward
movement of the MO/WNM admixes were likely pushed or diluted
south versus traveled south immediately.

There are not alot of absolutes in science, only those
that can be verified under vigorous questioning are
absolutes. Admixes and unseen migrations become more obvious
when more data appears, and one has to keep an open mind
about all possible scenarios. However, there is a point with
the presence of positive data for one scenario and absense
of positive data for the converse scenarios lends on to
refute the converse scenarios.
The african allelotypes of course are diverse and not all
are typed, the south americans are novel, and there could be
in all of this some tribe bearing a allelotype that is
discovered specifically in africa. However, then you have to
resolve the allelotype with haplotypes, is this a parallel
recombinatorial event or as a result of migration. The point
we are now is that the south american dataset is so similar
in terms of haplotypes and allelotypes to the Ainu, Japanese
and other siberians, that one would seriously need some more
pronounced proof, like other allelotypes or haplotypes from
that same african population to change the bias toward east
to west migration versus west to east. Again, right now, we
are not even looking at evidence for a single co-shared
[specific to african and south americans] allele, but that
doesn>t mean anything because very few african populations
have been typed (for instance I have not a single bit of
genetic evidence from angola). So the conclusion is not
absolute, however the counter conclusion that
Negroid/Australoids made it to the new world is also not
supported, and in science one tends to proport that which
can be supported.
[/quote]
Ignoring the possibility of populations dying out without modern
descendants.

[quote]Conversely the Beringia idea is supportable but it is not
an absolute, again uncertainty in africa could be a reason,
but the fact that south american HLA patterns are overloaded
with west pacific rim dweller allelotypes and haplotypes is
extremely suggestive of other possible modalities. This in
not absolute either, but it suffices to refute the neccesity
of climatic push models for explaining at least some of the
migrations.

I just want to make it clear that refuting a 'neccesary
arguement' is different from refuting an argument. Lorenzo>s
argument implies the neccesary argument that negroid
australoids could not make it to the north pacific corridor.
[/quote]
No. It>s a matter of probability. A couple thousand miles with the
current through the tropics or tens of thousands miles through an
extremely hostile environment.

[quote]As a result the best path is from africa, which cannot be
refuted, but is not proportable either. [Although I still
reserve the right to poke fun of Lorenzo 'gilligan' Love>s
rafting africans].

[/quote]
I see no reason that there could not have been several waves of
migration, some likely so small as to not survive, from each of the
direct Africa route, the Beringia route and the North Pacific route.
Maybe the North Atlantic route too. Even the east to west South Pacific
route is possible although that seems the least likely for a number of
reasons. Modern humans seem to have been great travelers from the
beginning. Cultural change and movement are defining characteristics of
modern humans.

Lorenzo L. Love
http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove

“Never be sure of anything. It’s a sign of weakness”
The Doctor

Philip Deitiker · Guest

On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 23:31:12 GMT, "Lorenzo L. Love"
<lllove@thegrid.net> wrote:

[quote]You want to tell us what genetic support there is for the Lagoa Santa
remains coming from anywhere?

[more attempts to justify his pet theory that everyone came through
Japan snipped]
[/quote]
You want to tell us the genetic support for the genes they,
as putative africans, left behind?

[quote]Conclusions.
There are two basic lines of contention here that I have
to deal with. There first line that Lorenzo is backing is
that beringia was the only pacific path,

Making stuff up again. I never said that.
[/quote]
You inferred they {negroid-australoid) could not travel
along a north pacific route.

[quote]What is the maritime advancement of ancient Africans?
[/quote]
Getting out of africa. for one. They did not get to the
Andaman islands riding on the back of seagulls.

[quote]It is plausible they rode favorable currents all
the way to Canada and then headed southeast.

We know that currents are favorable for Africa to Brazil crossings.
[/quote]
Yes and if it was widely traveled or known, where it the
evidence of the people who traveled. Elsewhere in europe
african genes have shown up in the Basque, the greeks, the
italians, the french, the iberians. Recent african
contribution is found even as far as Japan. So how is it
that we can see these contributions even in far east asia,
but they don>t show up in south america were they would have
rode 'favorable currents'. If it happened it didn>t happen
often, the input was near 0 and the odds of the Lake Santa
inhabitants being from that near 0 people who contributed
nothing is about 1:1,000,000. The probability that these
were the variable phenotypic makeup of western pacific
greater melanesians is signficantly higher considering the
genetics.

[quote]Negroid/Australoids made it to the new world is also not
supported, and in science one tends to proport that which
can be supported.

Ignoring the possibility of populations dying out without modern
descendants.
[/quote]
So how come the gene from the OM population did not die out,
apparently they have been replaced from Japan to the kurils
and along the entire north pacific diminished. Yet they
genetic representation in south america is great. If I were
to concede these melanesians started from taiwan, africa is
still climactically closer to south america than taiwan.
Selection would prefer africans if they made it from
equitorial africa.

[quote]I just want to make it clear that refuting a 'neccesary
arguement' is different from refuting an argument. Lorenzo>s
argument implies the neccesary argument that negroid
australoids could not make it to the north pacific corridor.

No. It>s a matter of probability. A couple thousand miles with the
current through the tropics or tens of thousands miles through an
extremely hostile environment.
[/quote]
What did sherlock holmes say once you eliminate all the most
probable explanations, the ones that are left, no matter how
improble, is [probably] the correct one. If the african
migration was probable, then it happened early and often.
Where is the genetic contribution. Early = founder effect =
big genetic bonus points. Often = avoidance of stochastic
pits.

[quote]As a result the best path is from africa, which cannot be
refuted, but is not proportable either. [Although I still
reserve the right to poke fun of Lorenzo 'gilligan' Love>s
rafting africans].

I see no reason that there could not have been several waves of
migration, some likely so small as to not survive, from each of the
direct Africa route, the Beringia route and the North Pacific route.
Maybe the North Atlantic route too. Even the east to west South Pacific
route is possible although that seems the least likely for a number of
reasons. Modern humans seem to have been great travelers from the
beginning. Cultural change and movement are defining characteristics of
modern humans.
[/quote]
But some peoples are better travelers and others and the
oceanians appear to, prehistorically, have been the best.
The have found deep sea tuna bones in human middens in
Japan. You don>t catch tuna without some maritime
capability.

Lorenzo L. Love · Guest

Philip Deitiker wrote:
[quote]On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 23:31:12 GMT, "Lorenzo L. Love"
lllove@thegrid.net> wrote:

You want to tell us what genetic support there is for the Lagoa Santa
remains coming from anywhere?

[more attempts to justify his pet theory that everyone came through
Japan snipped]

You want to tell us the genetic support for the genes they,
as putative africans, left behind?
[/quote]
If they died out, how could they leave any genes?
Still ignoring that entire populations can die out.

[quote]

Conclusions.
There are two basic lines of contention here that I have
to deal with. There first line that Lorenzo is backing is
that beringia was the only pacific path,

Making stuff up again. I never said that.

You inferred they {negroid-australoid) could not travel
along a north pacific route.
[/quote]
It>s unlikely that a tropical population would venture into the Arctic
but certainly possible. It>s a multigenerational trip through some of
the harshness climates in the world. It>s not like they knew where they
were going. So why go into the Arctic?

[quote]

What is the maritime advancement of ancient Africans?

Getting out of africa. for one. They did not get to the
Andaman islands riding on the back of seagulls.
[/quote]
Exactly. We know they were seafarers.

[quote]

It is plausible they rode favorable currents all
the way to Canada and then headed southeast.

We know that currents are favorable for Africa to Brazil crossings.

Yes and if it was widely traveled or known, where it the
evidence of the people who traveled. Elsewhere in europe
african genes have shown up in the Basque, the greeks, the
italians, the french, the iberians. Recent african
contribution is found even as far as Japan. So how is it
that we can see these contributions even in far east asia,
but they don>t show up in south america were they would have
rode 'favorable currents'. If it happened it didn>t happen
often, the input was near 0 and the odds of the Lake Santa
inhabitants being from that near 0 people who contributed
nothing is about 1:1,000,000. The probability that these
were the variable phenotypic makeup of western pacific
greater melanesians is signficantly higher considering the
genetics.
[/quote]
Still ignoring that entire populations can die out.

[quote]

Negroid/Australoids made it to the new world is also not
supported, and in science one tends to proport that which
can be supported.

Ignoring the possibility of populations dying out without modern
descendants.

So how come the gene from the OM population did not die out,
apparently they have been replaced from Japan to the kurils
and along the entire north pacific diminished. Yet they
genetic representation in south america is great. If I were
to concede these melanesians started from taiwan, africa is
still climactically closer to south america than taiwan.
Selection would prefer africans if they made it from
equitorial africa.
[/quote]
How can the survival of one population infer the survival of a
population some where else entirely?

[quote]

I just want to make it clear that refuting a 'neccesary
arguement' is different from refuting an argument. Lorenzo>s
argument implies the neccesary argument that negroid
australoids could not make it to the north pacific corridor.

No. It>s a matter of probability. A couple thousand miles with the
current through the tropics or tens of thousands miles through an
extremely hostile environment.

What did sherlock holmes say once you eliminate all the most
probable explanations, the ones that are left, no matter how
improble, is [probably] the correct one. If the african
migration was probable, then it happened early and often.
Where is the genetic contribution. Early = founder effect =
big genetic bonus points. Often = avoidance of stochastic
pits.
[/quote]
Are there Melanesian genes in Alaska? British Columbia? California?
Mexico? Western South America? Brazil? That>s the problem with genetic
tracing of populations. It>s founded on the erroneous assumption that
ancient genes must survive to the present. People die, populations die,
genes die, species die.

[quote]

As a result the best path is from africa, which cannot be
refuted, but is not proportable either. [Although I still
reserve the right to poke fun of Lorenzo 'gilligan' Love>s
rafting africans].

I see no reason that there could not have been several waves of
migration, some likely so small as to not survive, from each of the
direct Africa route, the Beringia route and the North Pacific route.
Maybe the North Atlantic route too. Even the east to west South Pacific
route is possible although that seems the least likely for a number of
reasons. Modern humans seem to have been great travelers from the
beginning. Cultural change and movement are defining characteristics of
modern humans.

But some peoples are better travelers and others and the
oceanians appear to, prehistorically, have been the best.
The have found deep sea tuna bones in human middens in
Japan. You don>t catch tuna without some maritime
capability.

And you were saying what about the maritime advancement of ancient Africans?[/quote]

We know that there were people in ancient Brazil that had physical
similarities to Africans and/or Australians. Which is closer, Africa or
Australia? Africa by a bunch. Look at ocean currents. Which way do they
flow? Almost directly from Africa to Brazil.

Lorenzo L. Love
http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove

“Never be sure of anything. It’s a sign of weakness”
The Doctor

Duncan Craig · Guest

Philip Deitiker <Nopdeitik@att.net.spam> wrote in message news:<huqcmv8iovcqslpgnorutbrpcga9vvg1m3@4ax.com>...
[quote]On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 23:31:12 GMT, "Lorenzo L. Love"
lllove@thegrid.net> wrote:

You want to tell us what genetic support there is for the Lagoa Santa
remains coming from anywhere?

[more attempts to justify his pet theory that everyone came through
Japan snipped]

You want to tell us the genetic support for the genes they,
as putative africans, left behind?

Conclusions.
There are two basic lines of contention here that I have
to deal with. There first line that Lorenzo is backing is
that beringia was the only pacific path,

Making stuff up again. I never said that.

You inferred they {negroid-australoid) could not travel
along a north pacific route.

What is the maritime advancement of ancient Africans?

Getting out of africa. for one. They did not get to the
Andaman islands riding on the back of seagulls.

It is plausible they rode favorable currents all
the way to Canada and then headed southeast.

We know that currents are favorable for Africa to Brazil crossings.

Yes and if it was widely traveled or known, where it the
evidence of the people who traveled. Elsewhere in europe
african genes have shown up in the Basque, the greeks, the
italians, the french, the iberians. Recent african
contribution is found even as far as Japan. So how is it
that we can see these contributions even in far east asia,
but they don>t show up in south america were they would have
rode 'favorable currents'. If it happened it didn>t happen
often, the input was near 0 and the odds of the Lake Santa
inhabitants being from that near 0 people who contributed
nothing is about 1:1,000,000. The probability that these
were the variable phenotypic makeup of western pacific
greater melanesians is signficantly higher considering the
genetics.

Negroid/Australoids made it to the new world is also not
supported, and in science one tends to proport that which
can be supported.

Ignoring the possibility of populations dying out without modern
descendants.

So how come the gene from the OM population did not die out,
apparently they have been replaced from Japan to the kurils
and along the entire north pacific diminished. Yet they
genetic representation in south america is great. If I were
to concede these melanesians started from taiwan, africa is
still climactically closer to south america than taiwan.
Selection would prefer africans if they made it from
equitorial africa.

I just want to make it clear that refuting a 'neccesary
arguement' is different from refuting an argument. Lorenzo>s
argument implies the neccesary argument that negroid
australoids could not make it to the north pacific corridor.

No. It>s a matter of probability. A couple thousand miles with the
current through the tropics or tens of thousands miles through an
extremely hostile environment.

What did sherlock holmes say once you eliminate all the most
probable explanations, the ones that are left, no matter how
improble, is [probably] the correct one. If the african
migration was probable, then it happened early and often.
Where is the genetic contribution. Early = founder effect =
big genetic bonus points. Often = avoidance of stochastic
pits.

As a result the best path is from africa, which cannot be
refuted, but is not proportable either. [Although I still
reserve the right to poke fun of Lorenzo 'gilligan' Love>s
rafting africans].

I see no reason that there could not have been several waves of
migration, some likely so small as to not survive, from each of the
direct Africa route, the Beringia route and the North Pacific route.
Maybe the North Atlantic route too. Even the east to west South Pacific
route is possible although that seems the least likely for a number of
reasons. Modern humans seem to have been great travelers from the
beginning. Cultural change and movement are defining characteristics of
modern humans.

But some peoples are better travelers and others and the
oceanians appear to, prehistorically, have been the best.
The have found deep sea tuna bones in human middens in
Japan. You don>t catch tuna without some maritime
capability.
[/quote]
There was a study done on Taiwan of about four hundred skulls
excavated from An Yang, China by the biologist Yang Hsi -mei. These
skulls are admittedly of a later period than that being discussed, but
they give an idea of the heterogeneous nature of the Shang. The skulls
were from a mass or sacrificial grave site and the fact that the
crania were 'forcibly detached from the spines',
indicates that they were slaves or captives. Yang Hsi subdivided the
morphological structures into five subgroups 1) Classic Mongoloid, 2)
Oceanic Negroid 3) Caucasoid 4) Eskimoid 5) an unamed type. Most
skulls were of 1) and 4), but ten to fifteen percent were 'Oceanic
Negroid'.
Coon, Howell, Brace and Turner have examined the skulls with heated
and differing opinions, and apparently, reports that weren>t as
exaustive as that of Yang Hsi.
I bring it up to indicate that the archaeological record shows
heterogeneous
populations in the neolithic, and it is assumed, that the same would
be true of
any particular wave of migration.
Duncan

Philip Deitiker · Guest

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 04:46:05 GMT, "Lorenzo L. Love"
<lllove@thegrid.net> did some sarious thank>n and scribbled:

[quote]If they died out, how could they leave any genes?
Still ignoring that entire populations can die out.
[/quote]
Yes, they never die out, particularly those heterogenous
africans with deep diversity.

[quote]It>s unlikely that a tropical population would venture into the Arctic
but certainly possible. It>s a multigenerational trip through some of
the harshness climates in the world. It>s not like they knew where they
were going. So why go into the Arctic?
[/quote]
They were very damn close, looking at the genetic makeup of
the Ainu. This sounds to be like a prejudice.

Consider
1. No competition northward
2. Potentially lots of food
3. An ability to traverse south if the weather goes south.

[quote]Getting out of africa. for one. They did not get to the
Andaman islands riding on the back of seagulls.

Exactly. We know they were seafarers.
[/quote]
Yes, they went east, then north, then south.

[quote]Still ignoring that entire populations can die out.
[/quote]
Show me an auto-extinction of a population, in humans
(James Jones Massacre does not count)

[quote]Are there Melanesian genes in Alaska? British Columbia? California?
Mexico? Western South America? Brazil? That>s the problem with genetic
tracing of populations. It>s founded on the erroneous assumption that
ancient genes must survive to the present. People die, populations die,
genes die, species die.
[/quote]
Yes there are, but the gene frequencies are lower and tend
to be associated with the groups that moved inland between
Vietnam and Korea. I was reviewing this data last night.
The Tlinglet may between to Orochon, Ainu and Koreans.
The Inuit have a number markers that come from the
Kor-Japan-Ainu area. North american natives are more like an
admixture of these 2. There are haplotypes from the biakal
region also. If we presume that the compliment of N.Amerind
haps that match south american either comigrated or diffused
up from south america, it places all of the north americans
as admixtures of several waves of migration (3+)

[quote]

As a result the best path is from africa, which cannot be
refuted, but is not proportable either. [Although I still
reserve the right to poke fun of Lorenzo 'gilligan' Love>s
rafting africans].

I see no reason that there could not have been several waves of
migration, some likely so small as to not survive, from each of the
direct Africa route, the Beringia route and the North Pacific route.
Maybe the North Atlantic route too. Even the east to west South Pacific
route is possible although that seems the least likely for a number of
reasons. Modern humans seem to have been great travelers from the
beginning. Cultural change and movement are defining characteristics of
modern humans.

But some peoples are better travelers and others and the
oceanians appear to, prehistorically, have been the best.
The have found deep sea tuna bones in human middens in
Japan. You don>t catch tuna without some maritime
capability.

And you were saying what about the maritime advancement of ancient Africans?
[/quote]
Are you saying what about the direct 'precolumbian' african
contribution to south america.

[quote]We know that there were people in ancient Brazil that had physical
similarities to Africans and/or Australians. Which is closer, Africa or
Australia? Africa by a bunch. Look at ocean currents. Which way do they
flow? Almost directly from Africa to Brazil.
[/quote]
Now true, 20,000 years ago the closest place subtracting all
portages is between the kamchatcha chain and the kuril chain
50 to 250 miles. Also 20 kya one of those australoid skulls
was discovered in Japan, Japan connect to kuril, kuril
connect to kamchatka, ice age aleutian chain all but butts
into kamachatka. In addition we have genetic information
that confirms that the western pacific was a likely route of
melanistic oceanians to the new world, and the genetic
makeup of haplotypes in highest frequency along the west
pacific rim are in south america.

Philip Deitiker · Guest

On 15 Sep 2003 23:56:54 -0700, dunkers@pacbell.net (Duncan
Craig) did some sarious thank>n and scribbled:

[quote]There was a study done on Taiwan of about four hundred skulls
excavated from An Yang, China by the biologist Yang Hsi -mei. These
skulls are admittedly of a later period than that being discussed, but
they give an idea of the heterogeneous nature of the Shang. The skulls
were from a mass or sacrificial grave site and the fact that the
crania were 'forcibly detached from the spines',
indicates that they were slaves or captives. Yang Hsi subdivided the
morphological structures into five subgroups 1) Classic Mongoloid, 2)
Oceanic Negroid 3) Caucasoid 4) Eskimoid 5) an unamed type. Most
skulls were of 1) and 4), but ten to fifteen percent were 'Oceanic
Negroid'.
Coon, Howell, Brace and Turner have examined the skulls with heated
and differing opinions, and apparently, reports that weren>t as
exaustive as that of Yang Hsi.
I bring it up to indicate that the archaeological record shows
heterogeneous
populations in the neolithic, and it is assumed, that the same would
be true of
any particular wave of migration.
[/quote]
In fact much more heterogenous than today. I was looking at
the HLA data for southern china last night, looking for
haplotypes that diminished down a gradient from northern
china to Japan (not present or very low in the Ainu or
ryukyuans). Several haplotypes that have the highest
frequency between the S. Han, Buyi/Naxi, N. Han have spread
from china all the way to australia. They tend to be highest
frequency haplotypes in the countries they are found in such
as thialand and vietnam, and split the haplotypes of these
peoples into to or more groupings (Allele preference in A-B
pairs).

I am in the process of pealing 'off' these haplotypes from
the east asian populations genetic data.

Seppo Renfors · Guest

Philip Deitiker wrote:
[quote]
We have two lines of thoughts here that appear to diverge in
opposing directions. Lorenzo with african-raft peoples and
Doug Weller with enclosing glaciers.
[/quote]
Nice to see I>m not alone in having thought of "raft" type movement -
though I would have thought to use "island" instead, as is used on
Lake Titikaka still to this day. The oldest floating island being some
77 years old now.

[quote]The basis of Lorenzo>s stipulation is that the skulls dated
to 10 kya in south american appear to be african in origin.
Dougs contention is that the 'out of siberia' hypothesis
proposing the Siber-alaskan land bridge, Beringia, would be
a preferred or primary used land route.

There is at the moment no genetic support for Lorenzo>s
idea, and questionable support for Doug>s, no matter how
classic the hypothesis is.
[/quote]
Well just having finished responding to another article of yours,
where you did in fact argue that there was evidence for the African
connection (though it was a mystery how it was possible to arrive at
it as it relied on "untested" HLA evidence). As for Doug>s theory, it
has any amount of evidence - even your own loony tunes "theory"
supports Doug>s stated view.

[snip the faulty old Ainu mantra.... may read the remainder one day
-if desperate for reading...]

--
SIR - Philosopher unauthorised
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is
misled.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Lorenzo L. Love · Guest

Philip Deitiker wrote:
[quote]On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 04:46:05 GMT, "Lorenzo L. Love"
lllove@thegrid.net> did some sarious thank>n and scribbled:

If they died out, how could they leave any genes?
Still ignoring that entire populations can die out.

Yes, they never die out, particularly those heterogenous
africans with deep diversity.

It>s unlikely that a tropical population would venture into the Arctic
but certainly possible. It>s a multigenerational trip through some of
the harshness climates in the world. It>s not like they knew where they
were going. So why go into the Arctic?

They were very damn close, looking at the genetic makeup of
the Ainu. This sounds to be like a prejudice.

Consider
1. No competition northward
2. Potentially lots of food
3. An ability to traverse south if the weather goes south.

Getting out of africa. for one. They did not get to the
Andaman islands riding on the back of seagulls.

Exactly. We know they were seafarers.

Yes, they went east, then north, then south.

Still ignoring that entire populations can die out.

Show me an auto-extinction of a population, in humans
(James Jones Massacre does not count)

Are there Melanesian genes in Alaska? British Columbia? California?
Mexico? Western South America? Brazil? That>s the problem with genetic
tracing of populations. It>s founded on the erroneous assumption that
ancient genes must survive to the present. People die, populations die,
genes die, species die.

Yes there are, but the gene frequencies are lower and tend
to be associated with the groups that moved inland between
Vietnam and Korea. I was reviewing this data last night.
The Tlinglet may between to Orochon, Ainu and Koreans.
The Inuit have a number markers that come from the
Kor-Japan-Ainu area. North american natives are more like an
admixture of these 2. There are haplotypes from the biakal
region also. If we presume that the compliment of N.Amerind
haps that match south american either comigrated or diffused
up from south america, it places all of the north americans
as admixtures of several waves of migration (3+)

As a result the best path is from africa, which cannot be
refuted, but is not proportable either. [Although I still
reserve the right to poke fun of Lorenzo 'gilligan' Love>s
rafting africans].

I see no reason that there could not have been several waves of
migration, some likely so small as to not survive, from each of the
direct Africa route, the Beringia route and the North Pacific route.
Maybe the North Atlantic route too. Even the east to west South Pacific
route is possible although that seems the least likely for a number of
reasons. Modern humans seem to have been great travelers from the
beginning. Cultural change and movement are defining characteristics of
modern humans.

But some peoples are better travelers and others and the
oceanians appear to, prehistorically, have been the best.
The have found deep sea tuna bones in human middens in
Japan. You don>t catch tuna without some maritime
capability.

And you were saying what about the maritime advancement of ancient Africans?

Are you saying what about the direct 'precolumbian' african
contribution to south america.

We know that there were people in ancient Brazil that had physical
similarities to Africans and/or Australians. Which is closer, Africa or
Australia? Africa by a bunch. Look at ocean currents. Which way do they
flow? Almost directly from Africa to Brazil.

Now true, 20,000 years ago the closest place subtracting all
portages is between the kamchatcha chain and the kuril chain
50 to 250 miles. Also 20 kya one of those australoid skulls
was discovered in Japan, Japan connect to kuril, kuril
connect to kamchatka, ice age aleutian chain all but butts
into kamachatka. In addition we have genetic information
that confirms that the western pacific was a likely route of
melanistic oceanians to the new world, and the genetic
makeup of haplotypes in highest frequency along the west
pacific rim are in south america.

[/quote]
Oh yes, the only physically possible route to the Americas is through
Japan. Forget that other routes are a fraction of the distance and can
be covered in a couple months versus many generations. Forget that the
shortest route is with the ocean currents and doesn>t require any
navigation ability and the Japan route is enormously complicated
navigationally. Forget that the shortest route is through the tropics
and the Japan route is through the Arctic. Just passing through Japan
makes tropical peoples Arctic survivors, makes everyone expert
navigators and gives them a multi-generation drive to travel into the
hostile unknown.

This whole house of Japanese tissue paper is based on the unwarranted
assumption that all ancient populations have survived to the present.
Ask your friendly local Neandertal about that. Ask a Caribe Indian. Ask
a Greenland Norse. Ask a Jamestown colonist.

What it really boils down to is that no mere African can accomplish what
the mighty Japanese can.

Lorenzo L. Love
http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove

"Prejudice, which sees what it pleases, cannot see what is plain."
Aubrey T. de Vere

firstjois · Guest

"Lorenzo L. Love" <lllove@thegrid.net> wrote in message
news:hAw9b.5500$BS5.5155@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
:
[snip]

I can>t see anything wrong with this:

: >>I see no reason that there could not have been several waves of
: >>migration, some likely so small as to not survive, from each of the
: >>direct Africa route, the Beringia route and the North Pacific route.
: >>Maybe the North Atlantic route too. Even the east to west South Pacific
: >>route is possible although that seems the least likely for a number of
: >>reasons. Modern humans seem to have been great travelers from the
: >>beginning. Cultural change and movement are defining characteristics of
: >>modern humans.

Please explain,
Jois

Philip Deitiker · Guest

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 17:43:06 GMT, "Lorenzo L. Love"
<lllove@thegrid.net> did some sarious thank>n and scribbled:

[quote]Oh yes, the only physically possible route to the Americas is through
Japan. Forget that other routes are a fraction of the distance and can
be covered in a couple months versus many generations.
[/quote]
In old times generations is how people traveled.

[quote]Forget that the
shortest route is with the ocean currents and doesn>t require any
navigation ability and the Japan route is enormously complicated
navigationally.
[/quote]
No corroborating evidence.

[quote]Forget that the shortest route is through the tropics
and the Japan route is through the Arctic.
[/quote]
That is not true, during the glacial maxima those travelers
would have been 100s of miles from the arctic circle. The
arctic is from 65>N to the north pole. The base of the
Aleutian chain is about 55>N and the lowest point is at 50>N

[quote]Just passing through Japan
makes tropical peoples Arctic survivors, makes everyone expert
navigators and gives them a multi-generation drive to travel into the
hostile unknown.
[/quote]
This is a bigoted statement. They obviously ADAPTED Lorenzo.
Who knows they my have worn seal skins. ON of the
coexpiditioners to the north pole was a black man.

[quote]This whole house of Japanese tissue paper is based on the unwarranted
assumption that all ancient populations have survived to the present.
[/quote]
As opposed to yours based on a bigoted mindset?

[quote]Ask your friendly local Neandertal about that. Ask a Caribe Indian. Ask
a Greenland Norse. Ask a Jamestown colonist.
[/quote]
Ireland is about the same latitude as the aluetian chain, it
is on the cold side of the the gulf stream. And yet it
appears people survived the last ice age in Ireland. See, I
am not a bigot. When the molecular information says they
did do something, I agree, no matter how unlikely it seems
to me.
The greenland norse did not perish, they apparently
immigrated to upper hudson bay, the HLA elements of the
norse are easily detected in the eastern inuit.

[quote]What it really boils down to is that no mere African can accomplish what
the mighty Japanese can.
[/quote]
Paleolithic Japanese would be more or less considered
extended oceanians. greater melanistic oceanians if you so
desire, this was followed by an admixed people known as the
Jomon, and followed by the Yayoi. The modern Japanese are
only about 20-30% Jomonese, and the Jomonese are no more
than 50% gMO. Therefore current Japanese are no more than
15% gMO. In addition about half the haplotypes in the Ainu
can be traced to inland routes [Vietnam, china, korea,
orochon, Ninvten, Inuit and Yakuts] Therefore we can
furthern shave that contribution down to 8%. Where are the
gMO that used to live in Japan, most of the genetic
representation is now in the New World, a trivial popualtion
of the Ainu, and low frequency of haps in the Ainu,
Ryukyuans and a remnant popualtion in Taiwan.
Where other peoples more adapted. The incipient Jomonese
apparently had no difficulty dislodging this culture from
northen Japan; however to be dislodged a culture has to
exist, and there they did.

[quote]no mere African can accomplish what
the mighty Japanese can.
[/quote]
Ancient Africans are the ancestors of the gMO. However
ancient africans were not under the selection for maritime
capability that gMO were during the last verifyable 80 to 10
kya [If liuJiang is verified you can add another 40 to the
80kya]. 70 kyears of living on scattered islands with sea
levels rising and falling with every little nudge in
climate. Take a look at a map, what area of the world was
unarguably most affected by deglaciation. What area of the
world will people most have to exploit sea-faring
technologies to survive. You can subtract from the culture
the ability to adapt to cold but that they could survive as
far north as hokkaido (verified) and add that whatever
archeologist knows about ranges is fractional to reality.
Then add back in the positive ability to travel in opportune
circumstances. They have more than enough capability to
reach the new world, as NegroidAustraloids, as alive, as
genetic contributors. There is nothing that says africans
traveling west could not, there is nothing at all that
argues they ever did, period.
So what you are arguing is despite this one group of
peoples spending 70-100 ky adapting to the west pacific
climate and sea levels, despite tons of cultural evidence
that groups of people living north of the equitorial region
survived on a maritime capability. Despite tons of cultural
evidence that Japans Paleolithic/Neolithic was considered on
the most luxurious in the world, that paleolithic and
neolithic culture in Japan is ubiquitous and one of the
densist in terms of artefacts in the world (implying that
people had sophisticated cultural adaptations for dealing
with things like COLD WEATHER. Despite the fact that people
of the region have the greatest similarity to south and
mesoamericans. Paleooceanians may have made it to south
america, however they did so only recently. Africans may
have made it to south american but they also only would have
done so recently. If they made it there early, before the
population in S. america had equilibrated in all habitable
regions, then they would neccesarily leave there genetic
finger print. HLA are not exclusive, but inclusive.
Particularly peoples who have been through bottlenecks like
the paleoamerinds appear to have gone through on arrival.
The addition of african alleles would have been extremely
selective in that context, because there is a very well
documented heterozygous selection coefficient. 1 africa
might have a haplotype that spread to 1000s or 100,000s of
individuals in that context. Unless it was a boat load of
post-reproductive african women, it did not happen.

Spiznet · Guest

Philip Deitiker <Nopdeitik@att.net.spam > wrote in message news:<
[quote]On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 04:46:05 GMT, "Lorenzo L. Love"

It>s unlikely that a tropical population would venture into the Arctic
but certainly possible. It>s a multigenerational trip through some of
the harshness climates in the world. It>s not like they knew where they
were going. So why go into the Arctic?

They were very damn close, looking at the genetic makeup of
the Ainu. This sounds to be like a prejudice.

Consider
1. No competition northward
2. Potentially lots of food
3. An ability to traverse south if the weather goes south.
[/quote]
Phil & Lorenzo-

Moving along the seacoast by canoe or other craft is nothing like a
land migration (carrying, walking).

Any idea how long it would take a modern canoe team to make the trip
from japan to san francisco? A couple of months at most, right?

-Mark

Tedd · Guest

"Lorenzo L. Love" <lllove@thegrid.net> wrote in message
news:KYH9b.5944$BS5.2519@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
[quote]Philip Deitiker wrote:
On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 04:46:05 GMT, "Lorenzo L. Love"
lllove@thegrid.net> did some sarious thank>n and scribbled:
[/quote]
<snip>

[quote]Oh yes, the only physically possible route to the Americas is through
Japan. Forget that other routes are a fraction of the distance and can
be covered in a couple months versus many generations. Forget that the
shortest route is with the ocean currents and doesn>t require any
navigation ability and the Japan route is enormously complicated
navigationally. Forget that the shortest route is through the tropics
and the Japan route is through the Arctic. Just passing through Japan
makes tropical peoples Arctic survivors, makes everyone expert
navigators and gives them a multi-generation drive to travel into the
hostile unknown.
[/quote]
you presume alot here, for example; you presume your boat goers knew their
destination.

Philip Deitiker · Guest

On 16 Sep 2003 14:25:25 -0700, mark@spiznet.com (Spiznet)
did some sarious thank>n and scribbled:

[quote]Moving along the seacoast by canoe or other craft is nothing like a
land migration (carrying, walking).

Any idea how long it would take a modern canoe team to make the trip
from japan to san francisco? A couple of months at most, right?
[/quote]
Months are optimistic I think. If it was say June, and you
had reach the middle islands of

http://www.inforain.org/maparchive/bsai.gif

Attu islands. You would have until september 1 to reach
canada. 1 season along canada>s coast, lots of salmon
other animals completely indifferent to humans and
predators.

Notice also on that map what the -200 feet depth contours,
also note that those islands hang out pretty far into the
pacific that it would be possible to winter out as long as
bering sea was cut off. Albeit rainy and messy. 13 kya
bowers ridge and the aleutian chain are like a damn
peninsula. 55>N is bad except when your 500 miles out into
the pacific. The weather is nasty in winter no doubt, you
couldn>t travel but as soon as late spring comes along you
have good winds and in some cases good currents.

If you manage to get to Attu and winter it out, it would be
a leisurely hunting fishing expedition for several months
hitting islands along the pacific coast until you reached
california.

I should also note that the mtDNA of this exterior islands
of the aleutian are markedly different and more like south
american Ht frequencies relative to canada.


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