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Guest · Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:04 am Post subject: Thermite Welding?

Thermite is used in the welding industry. If a mass of thermite was
ignited in a container underwater, would it continue to burn? Fully
submerged underwater.

dlzc@aol.com (formerly) · Guest

Dear crows_32:
<crows_32@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:f88273ed.0307261704.698d8f3f@posting.google.com...
[quote]Thermite is used in the welding industry. If a mass of thermite was
ignited in a container underwater, would it continue to burn? Fully
submerged underwater.
[/quote]
Yes. That is one of the ways they weld underwater.
http://www.ilpi.com/genchem/demo/thermite/index.html

David A. Smith

Ernie Leimkuhler · Guest

In article <5eGUa.155803$Ph3.19497@sccrnsc04>, Lefty <anon@comcast.net>
wrote:

[quote]Thermite is used in the welding industry. If a mass of thermite was
ignited in a container underwater, would it continue to burn? Fully
submerged underwater.

Yes. That is one of the ways they weld underwater.
http://www.ilpi.com/genchem/demo/thermite/index.html

David A. Smith

Only one way to find out I>d say -

Seems like it would probably work even if it was wet - but would be much
harder to ignite.

However, I dont think that the method is particularly well suited for
underwater work. I think that you>d get much further by arc welding using a
XXXXXXXXX of XXXXXXXXXXXXX because XXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX.
But I cant discuss the details of that because it>s proproetary.

- and thanks.

[/quote]
"proproetary" huh?

Sounds dangerous.

David Lloyd-Jones · Guest

crows_32@yahoo.com.au wrote:
[quote]Thermite is used in the welding industry. If a mass of thermite was
ignited in a container underwater, would it continue to burn? Fully
submerged underwater.
[/quote]
Yes. The whole point of it is the oxygen source is *right there*.

-dlj.

Lefty · Guest

"Ernie Leimkuhler" <ernie@stagesmith.com> wrote in message
news:260720031933343375%ernie@stagesmith.com...
[quote]In article <5eGUa.155803$Ph3.19497@sccrnsc04>, Lefty <anon@comcast.net
wrote:

Thermite is used in the welding industry. If a mass of thermite was
ignited in a container underwater, would it continue to burn? Fully
submerged underwater.

Yes. That is one of the ways they weld underwater.
http://www.ilpi.com/genchem/demo/thermite/index.html

David A. Smith

Only one way to find out I>d say -

Seems like it would probably work even if it was wet - but would be much
harder to ignite.

However, I dont think that the method is particularly well suited for
underwater work. I think that you>d get much further by arc welding
using a
XXXXXXXXX of XXXXXXXXXXXXX because XXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXX.
But I cant discuss the details of that because it>s proproetary.

- and thanks.

"proproetary" huh?

Sounds dangerous.
[/quote]
Cant talk about it until I>ve thoroughly searched the USPTO website, but
Ernie - you>ll be the first to know.

Peter Prucker · Guest

Lefty wrote:
[quote]
Thermite is used in the welding industry. If a mass of thermite was
ignited in a container underwater, would it continue to burn? Fully
submerged underwater.

Yes. That is one of the ways they weld underwater.
http://www.ilpi.com/genchem/demo/thermite/index.html

David A. Smith

Only one way to find out I>d say -

Seems like it would probably work even if it was wet - but would be much
harder to ignite.
[/quote]

Yes. Hasrd to ignite! I used 3 ignition sparklers - normally one.
Thermite was not wet, only moist.

Mixture (factory made from Goldstein Co., Germany, used for
rail-welding) gave many sparks, but these sparks seemed to be more small
explosions. I think, it was oxyhydrogen gas.

Since this "trial" I dry thermite always in the baking oven before using
it.

P.Pr.

toadmonkey · Guest

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 10:27:28 +0200, Peter Prucker <P.Prucker@t-online.de> wrote:
[quote]
Yes. Hasrd to ignite! I used 3 ignition sparklers - normally one.
Thermite was not wet, only moist.

Mixture (factory made from Goldstein Co., Germany, used for
rail-welding) gave many sparks, but these sparks seemed to be more small
explosions. I think, it was oxyhydrogen gas.

Since this "trial" I dry thermite always in the baking oven before using
it.

P.Pr.
Peter, do you buy the thermite or make it yourself? I>d presume that if you[/quote]
bought it you wouldn>t (or shouldn>t) have to worry as much about the wetness.
Or am I wrong on this?
TM

--
Toadmonkey: "Now now. Brain popping and world crashing may be hazardous to ones perception of reality.
Very dangerous business that can lead to madness or something worse for some, truth."

Please remove all bits of spam from addy before replying....

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Peter Prucker · Guest

toadmonkey wrote:

[quote]Peter, do you buy the thermite or make it yourself? I>d presume that if you
bought it you wouldn>t (or shouldn>t) have to worry as much about the wetness.
Or am I wrong on this?
TM
[/quote]
Why should I buy thermite or even make by myself? The first has
something to do with money, the latter with work.
And work ruins all the day! :-((

I let it donate to me.
It´s for training of vocational schools.

But even this original thermite will get moistened from longer storage.
It´s realy necessary to dry it in the oven at temperatures something
over 100 Celsius.

For ignition we use a sort of thicker sparklers, also from
"Goldschmidt".
(Sorry, in my first posting I used the wrong name "Goldstein". Mistake!
Goldschmidt was the inventor, his factory is still existing in Germany.)

Greetings

P.Pr.

Lefty · Guest

"fkasner" <fkasner@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:3F2446E2.2060402@rcn.com...
[quote]

David Lloyd-Jones wrote:

crows_32@yahoo.com.au wrote:

Thermite is used in the welding industry. If a mass of thermite was
ignited in a container underwater, would it continue to burn? Fully
submerged underwater.

Yes. The whole point of it is the oxygen source is *right there*.

-dlj.

That is NOT the whole point. It is also true that the enthalpy of the
reaction is so high that water cannot cool it enough to quench the
reaction.
FK

[/quote]

Yes - and a big question of heat transfer. I dont think that water could
remove heat faster than it being generated, even ice water.

One thing it will do, however, is to create a HUGE amount of steam and
turbulence, probably making any respectable welding unfeasable. Refractory
molds which are ordinarily used in this process would become waterlogged and
probably explode underwater, unless you can afford solid blocks of graphite
or certain other materials. It would not be a practical method for most
apps.

Check the USPTO website. Someone invented a laser method for underwater use.
I think you>d do much better with a laser. You can contact the inventor to
see if it>s commercially available etc.

Steve Turner · Guest

fkasner <fkasner@rcn.com> wrote:

[quote]That is NOT the whole point. It is also true that the enthalpy of the
reaction is so high that water cannot cool it enough to quench the reaction.
[/quote]
I think that depends on factors not readily apparent from the original
question -- such as the size and configuration of the thermite sample
and its contact with water. As an almost absurd example, spread a
gram of thermite over a square meter of almost anything and I doubt
that it will self-sustain.

For any normal welding situation, you are right of course.

Steve Turner

Real address contains worldnet instead of spamnet

Lefty · Guest

"David Lloyd-Jones" <dalj@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:3F24995E.8070705@rogers.com...
[quote]

Lefty wrote:

Check the USPTO website. Someone invented a laser method for underwater
use.
I think you>d do much better with a laser. You can contact the inventor
to
see if it>s commercially available etc.

You>re saying the laser won>t cause steam and turbulence? Not at the
delivery end at the work-piece? Not at the back end where the lasing
is going on? And not in the water the power has to be transmitted
through in between?

Wow! I>m sure waiting for the details on that one!

-dlj.

[/quote]

I>d like to see it in action myself - all I can tell you is that I>ve seen
that patent. I have to admit - it does sound interesting - if it works.
Sometimes I think that engineers will patent something to cover their ass
even if it dosent work "yet", because they expect it to after some
refinements.

I think that you could get past the turbulence issue with a laser by using a
piece of pure optical grade fused quartz as a "welding tip". It can
certainly take the heat, extremely low modulus of expansion, and it behaves
alot like glass. You could use a cylider of optical quartz to communicate
the laser energy diretly to the weld zone, and because you can get so close
to the weld with the quartz the turbulence and steam issues can be somewhat
minimized.

I>m just tossing shit out here, but I certainly think it>s possible. There>s
a hundred ways to skin that cat.

David Grauman · Guest

One factor to consider is that molten iron in contact with water
releases hydrogen gas as Fe+2H20->FeO2 + 2(H2). Under water there is no
free oxyget to ignite the hydrogen, but if it is a surface reaction then
the available oxygen in the air may cause an explosion. This is
cautioned in early books on Thermit welding on railroad rails.

dlzc@aol.com (formerly) wrote:

[quote]Dear crows_32:
crows_32@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:f88273ed.0307261704.698d8f3f@posting.google.com...

Thermite is used in the welding industry. If a mass of thermite was
ignited in a container underwater, would it continue to burn? Fully
submerged underwater.

Yes. That is one of the ways they weld underwater.
http://www.ilpi.com/genchem/demo/thermite/index.html

David A. Smith

[/quote]

Terry Wilder · Guest

<crows_32@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:f88273ed.0307261704.698d8f3f@posting.google.com...
[quote]Thermite is used in the welding industry. If a mass of thermite was
ignited in a container underwater, would it continue to burn? Fully
submerged underwater.
[/quote]
This would depend on the configuration (binders containment etc) of the
system.
In many cases the answer would be no. However,
see what you can find on the Pyronol Torches, which
supplement the Al with Ni, and "are" used for underwater applications.

Don Thompson · Guest

Eh?

You didn>t catch the pointing out of your quite hilarious miss-spelled
word? All the "top secret, burn before reading, if I tell you I have to kill
you, bullshit goes up in smoke when you spell "proprietary" as
"proproetary".

--

Don Thompson

Ex ROMAD

"Lefty" <anon@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:qbIUa.156667$Ph3.19161@sccrnsc04...
[quote]
"Ernie Leimkuhler" <ernie@stagesmith.com> wrote in message
news:260720031933343375%ernie@stagesmith.com...
In article <5eGUa.155803$Ph3.19497@sccrnsc04>, Lefty <anon@comcast.net
wrote:

Thermite is used in the welding industry. If a mass of thermite
was
ignited in a container underwater, would it continue to burn?
Fully
submerged underwater.

Yes. That is one of the ways they weld underwater.
http://www.ilpi.com/genchem/demo/thermite/index.html

David A. Smith

Only one way to find out I>d say -

Seems like it would probably work even if it was wet - but would be
much
harder to ignite.

However, I dont think that the method is particularly well suited for
underwater work. I think that you>d get much further by arc welding
using a
XXXXXXXXX of XXXXXXXXXXXXX because XXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXX.
But I cant discuss the details of that because it>s proproetary.

- and thanks.

"proproetary" huh?

Sounds dangerous.

Cant talk about it until I>ve thoroughly searched the USPTO website, but
Ernie - you>ll be the first to know.

[/quote]

Lefty · Guest

You guys crak me up - dang glad Al invented this thing cuz it shore good
fun.

[quote]Eh?

You didn>t catch the pointing out of your quite hilarious miss-spelled
word? All the "top secret, burn before reading, if I tell you I have to
kill
you, bullshit goes up in smoke when you spell "proprietary" as
"proproetary".

--

Don Thompson

Ex ROMAD

"Lefty" <anon@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:qbIUa.156667$Ph3.19161@sccrnsc04...

"Ernie Leimkuhler" <ernie@stagesmith.com> wrote in message
news:260720031933343375%ernie@stagesmith.com...
In article <5eGUa.155803$Ph3.19497@sccrnsc04>, Lefty
anon@comcast.net
wrote:

Thermite is used in the welding industry. If a mass of thermite
was
ignited in a container underwater, would it continue to burn?
Fully
submerged underwater.

Yes. That is one of the ways they weld underwater.
http://www.ilpi.com/genchem/demo/thermite/index.html

David A. Smith

Only one way to find out I>d say -

Seems like it would probably work even if it was wet - but would be
much
harder to ignite.

However, I dont think that the method is particularly well suited
for
underwater work. I think that you>d get much further by arc welding
using a
XXXXXXXXX of XXXXXXXXXXXXX because XXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXX.
But I cant discuss the details of that because it>s proproetary.

- and thanks.

"proproetary" huh?

Sounds dangerous.

Cant talk about it until I>ve thoroughly searched the USPTO website, but
Ernie - you>ll be the first to know.

[/quote]


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