Science and Technology news... :: View topic - The 'Global Warming in a Bottle' Experiment, Done Correctly.

Roger Coppock · Guest

The TV science series "Mythbusters" did a
"Young Scientists Special." It aired on
4/26/08 (Season 6, Episode 8). One of the
items they put to the test was greenhouse
gas theory. They made 4 large rectangular
chambers added CO2 to one, CH4 to another,
and used the remaining two for controls.

They simulated the Earth by shining a light
through the clear mylar on one side onto
a black painted surface at the other side.
the greenhouse gas chambers were warmer
and melted more ice than the control groups.
They confirmed that CO2 and CH4 can cause
greenhouse warming.

Tom Bolger should look at this demonstration
to see how to do this correctly. He>s failed too
many times and he needs help.

I found my copy on the LImewire™ network. This
episode is probably also available on DVD.
Please see:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1225053/

chemist · Guest

On Oct 31, 1:45 am, Roger Coppock <rcopp...@adnc.com> wrote:
[quote]The TV science series "Mythbusters" did a
"Young Scientists Special." It aired on
4/26/08 (Season 6, Episode 8). One of the
items they put to the test was greenhouse
gas theory. They made 4 large rectangular
chambers added CO2 to one, CH4 to another,
and used the remaining two for controls.

They simulated the Earth by shining a light
through the clear mylar on one side onto
a black painted surface at the other side.
the greenhouse gas chambers were warmer
and melted more ice than the control groups.
They confirmed that CO2 and CH4 can cause
greenhouse warming.

Tom Bolger should look at this demonstration
to see how to do this correctly. He>s failed too
many times and he needs help.

I found my copy on the LImewire™ network. This
episode is probably also available on DVD.
Please see:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1225053/
[/quote]
Give us more detail such as
were the containers open.
METHANE DOES NOT WARM FASTER THAN AIR.

Roger Coppock · Guest

On Oct 31, 3:07 am, chemist <tom-bol...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
[ . . . ]
[quote]Give us more detail such as
were the containers open.
[/quote]
You should see it for yourself. A copy of
this video should be easy to find. Just
look for:

"Mythbusters" "Young Scientists Special."
It aired on 4/26/08 (Season 6, Episode 8).
I found my copy on the LImewire™ network.
This episode is probably also available on DVD.
Look for the series' internet site.

Also, please see:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1225053/

[quote]METHANE DOES NOT WARM FASTER THAN AIR.
[/quote]
In this experiment, it quite clearly did.

[ I like the two control chambers used in this
experiment. That gives some measure of the
variance. In this experiment, the two control
chambers maintained the same temperature.
That shows that the results were not likely
due to chance.

After seeing this "Mythbusters" episode, I>ve
watched more. There are very probably some
real scientists behind this series. ]

chemist · Guest

On Oct 31, 10:40 am, Roger Coppock <rcopp...@adnc.com> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 31, 3:07 am, chemist <tom-bol...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
[ . . . ]

Give us more detail such as
were the containers open.

You should see it for yourself. A copy of
this video should be easy to find. Just
look for:

"Mythbusters" "Young Scientists Special."
It aired on 4/26/08 (Season 6, Episode 8).
I found my copy on the LImewire™ network.
This episode is probably also available on DVD.
Look for the series' internet site.

Also, please see:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1225053/

METHANE DOES NOT WARM FASTER THAN AIR.

In this experiment, it quite clearly did.

[ I like the two control chambers used in this
experiment. That gives some measure of the
variance. In this experiment, the two control
chambers maintained the same temperature.
That shows that the results were not likely
due to chance.

After seeing this "Mythbusters" episode, I>ve
watched more. There are very probably some
real scientists behind this series. ]
[/quote]
GIVE us some more details of the experiments
The published Greenhouse gas warming experiments
are demonstrably unscientific.

Bolaleman · Guest

On Oct 31, 6:07 am, chemist <tom-bol...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 31, 1:45 am, Roger Coppock <rcopp...@adnc.com> wrote:

The TV science series "Mythbusters" did a
"Young Scientists Special." It aired on
4/26/08 (Season 6, Episode 8). One of the
items they put to the test was greenhouse
gas theory. They made 4 large rectangular
chambers added CO2 to one, CH4 to another,
and used the remaining two for controls.

They simulated the Earth by shining a light
through the clear mylar on one side onto
a black painted surface at the other side.
the greenhouse gas chambers were warmer
and melted more ice than the control groups.
They confirmed that CO2 and CH4 can cause
greenhouse warming.

Tom Bolger should look at this demonstration
to see how to do this correctly. He>s failed too
many times and he needs help.

I found my copy on the LImewire™ network. This
episode is probably also available on DVD.
Please see:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1225053/

Give us more detail such as
were the containers open.
METHANE DOES NOT WARM FASTER THAN AIR.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
[/quote]
Chemist, here is the reason:
When heat is lost to the air, some is absorbed by nitrogen, some is
absorbed by oxygen, and a tiny amount is absorbed by argon, carbon
dioxide, water vapor, and trace gases. You can write:

Heat absorbed by one mole of air = heat absorbed by O2 + heat absorbed
by N2 + ...
= xO2Cp(O2) T + xN2Cp(N2) T + ...

where xO2 and xN2 are moles of oxygen and moles of nitrogen per mole
of air, and Cp(O2) and Cp(N2) are the constant pressure molar heat
capacites for pure oxygen and nitrogen gases.

Assuming that air is 21% oxygen, and 79% nitrogen by volume. If you
can assume that the air behaves ideally, Avogadro>s law says that the
volume fraction for each gas is also its mole fraction. However, gases
like CO2, H2O and methane (CH4) do not behave like an ideal gas.

As O2 and N2 are di-atomic gases, but CO2, H2O and methane are three-
and four- atomic gases, they have more degrees of freedom, i.e.
infrared energy can be converted more easily into intra-molecular
atomic vibrations which is equal kinetic energy or heat energy. As a
result, these gases (including water as vapor) are heated up more
easily than oxygen and nitrogen by Infrared (IR) radiation. This
conversion of radiation energy to kinetic energy by the way is the
principal of IR spectroscopy. The higher energetic ultraviolet
radiation (UV) is causing excitations of outer electrons (used for
instance in the UV spectroscopy). This “absorbed” energy can be
converted partially in kinetic swinging energy (resulting in heat
production) and partially is emitted again as radiation energy.

-----------------
Find Green Jobs: http://2ajobguide.com/wind_jobs_solar_renewable_energy_jobs.aspx

Claudius Denk · Guest

On Oct 31, 8:36 am, Bolaleman <hull...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 31, 6:07 am, chemist <tom-bol...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
[/quote]
<snip>

[quote]Give us more detail such as
were the containers open.
METHANE DOES NOT WARM FASTER THAN AIR.- Hide quoted text -

Chemist, here is the reason:
When heat is lost to the air, some is absorbed by nitrogen, some is
absorbed by oxygen, and a tiny amount is absorbed by argon, carbon
dioxide, water vapor, and trace gases. You can write:

Heat absorbed by one mole of air = heat absorbed by O2 + heat absorbed
by N2 + ...
= xO2Cp(O2) T + xN2Cp(N2) T + ...

where xO2 and xN2 are moles of oxygen and moles of nitrogen per mole
of air, and Cp(O2) and Cp(N2) are the constant pressure molar heat
capacites for pure oxygen and nitrogen gases.

Assuming that air is 21% oxygen, and 79% nitrogen by volume. If you
can assume that the air behaves ideally, Avogadro>s law says that the
volume fraction for each gas is also its mole fraction. However, gases
like CO2, H2O and methane (CH4) do not behave like an ideal gas.
[/quote]
Uh, relevance?

[quote]As O2 and N2 are di-atomic gases, but CO2, H2O and methane are three-
and four- atomic gases, they have more degrees of freedom, i.e.
infrared energy can be converted more easily into intra-molecular
atomic vibrations which is equal kinetic energy or heat energy. As a
result, these gases (including water as vapor) are heated up more
easily than oxygen and nitrogen by Infrared (IR) radiation.
[/quote]
Note that the AGW whackos have been very careful not to quantify
this. They want to keep it vague so that their vague non-hypothesis
can never be tested.

[quote]This
conversion of radiation energy to kinetic energy by the way is the
principal of IR spectroscopy. The higher energetic ultraviolet
radiation (UV) is causing excitations of outer electrons (used for
instance in the UV spectroscopy). This “absorbed” energy can be
converted partially in kinetic swinging energy (resulting in heat
production) and partially is emitted again as radiation energy.
[/quote]
This is all standard procedures that are specifically avoided by the
AGW scam artists. Instead they spend all their energies on worthless
computer models in the hope to draw attention away from the kind of
analysis you are starting to pursue here.

Keep up the good work.

Benj · Guest

On Oct 30, 8:45 pm, Roger Coppock <rcopp...@adnc.com> wrote:
[quote]The TV science series "Mythbusters" did a
"Young Scientists Special." It aired on
4/26/08 (Season 6, Episode 8). One of the
items they put to the test was greenhouse
gas theory. They made 4 large rectangular
chambers added CO2 to one, CH4 to another,
and used the remaining two for controls.
[/quote]
The name "mythbusters" already makes this a suspect as a propaganda
vehicle. Note that all this proves is that one can measure the thermal
characteristics of PURE CO2 and CH4!

[quote]They simulated the Earth by shining a light
through the clear mylar on one side onto
a black painted surface at the other side.
the greenhouse gas chambers were warmer
and melted more ice than the control groups.
They confirmed that CO2 and CH4 can cause
greenhouse warming.
[/quote]
BZZZZZTTT! Wrong question. The right question is can CO2 cause ENOUGH
so-called "global-warming" to be significant. Hence to REALLY "bust"
the myth the experiment would have two chambers one with today>s air.
And the other with a mixture of air as measured about 1850 or some
other convenient pre-anthropogenic date. If today>s air is melting
huge chunks of ice and yesterday>s air is not, perhaps THEN you>ll
have "busted" a "myth".

It is a shameful thing to abuse children with fake political
propaganda like this. This is almost as shameful as the Nobel Prize
going to Algore who cleverly reversed cause and effect between ocean
temperature and dissolved CO2.

John M. · Guest

On Oct 31, 7:26 pm, Bill Ward <bw...@REMOVETHISix.netcom.com> wrote:
[quote]On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 08:36:36 -0700, Bolaleman wrote:
On Oct 31, 6:07 am, chemist <tom-bol...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
On Oct 31, 1:45 am, Roger Coppock <rcopp...@adnc.com> wrote:

The TV science series "Mythbusters" did a "Young Scientists Special."
It aired on 4/26/08 (Season 6, Episode 8). One of the items they
put to the test was greenhouse gas theory. They made 4 large
rectangular chambers added CO2 to one, CH4 to another, and used the
remaining two for controls.

They simulated the Earth by shining a light through the clear mylar on
one side onto a black painted surface at the other side. the
greenhouse gas chambers were warmer and melted more ice than the
control groups. They confirmed that CO2 and CH4 can cause greenhouse
warming.

Tom Bolger should look at this demonstration to see how to do this
correctly. He>s failed too many times and he needs help.

I found my copy on the LImewire™ network. This episode is probably
also available on DVD. Please see:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1225053/

Give us more detail such as
were the containers open.
METHANE DOES NOT WARM FASTER THAN AIR.
Chemist, here is the reason:
When heat is lost to the air, some is absorbed by nitrogen, some is
absorbed by oxygen, and a tiny amount is absorbed by argon, carbon
dioxide, water vapor, and trace gases. You can write:

Heat absorbed by one mole of air = heat absorbed by O2 + heat absorbed by
N2 + ...
= xO2Cp(O2) T + xN2Cp(N2) T + ...

where xO2 and xN2 are moles of oxygen and moles of nitrogen per mole of
air, and Cp(O2) and Cp(N2) are the constant pressure molar heat capacites
for pure oxygen and nitrogen gases.

Assuming that air is 21% oxygen, and 79% nitrogen by volume. If you can
assume that the air behaves ideally, Avogadro>s law says that the volume
fraction for each gas is also its mole fraction. However, gases like CO2,
H2O and methane (CH4) do not behave like an ideal gas.

As O2 and N2 are di-atomic gases, but CO2, H2O and methane are three- and
four- atomic gases, they have more degrees of freedom, i.e. infrared
energy can be converted more easily into intra-molecular atomic vibrations
which is equal kinetic energy or heat energy. As a result, these gases
(including water as vapor) are heated up more easily than oxygen and
nitrogen by Infrared (IR) radiation. This conversion of radiation energy
to kinetic energy by the way is the principal of IR spectroscopy. The
higher energetic ultraviolet radiation (UV) is causing excitations of
outer electrons (used for instance in the UV spectroscopy). This
“absorbed” energy can be converted partially in kinetic swinging
energy (resulting in heat production) and partially is emitted again as
radiation energy.

Fine, but IR has nothing to do with it. The experiment heated the gases
by conduction and convection from the black background.
[/quote]
So the atmosphere is not heated at all by conduction and convection?
<sarcasm>

[quote]Even back in the 1850>s, Tyndall pointed out the need to keep
the radiation source and detectors completely thermally isolated
from the sample gas. It>s still true.
[/quote]
Golly jeepers. The Laws of Physics didn>t change in 150 years. Oh,
except that CO2 stopped being a GHG for some strange reason <more
sarcasm>

[quote]Those demonstrations do not show anything but the density and thermal
properties of the gases.
[/quote]
Did nobody tell this clod that molecular rotation and vibration, along
with translation, are thermal properties of gases. <no sarcasm>

[quote]They are being shown to gullible children as propaganda.
[/quote]
You mean like in bible classes <further sarcasm>

John M. · Guest

On Oct 31, 6:59 pm, Claudius Denk <claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 31, 8:36 am, Bolaleman <hull...@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Oct 31, 6:07 am, chemist <tom-bol...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

snip

Give us more detail such as
were the containers open.
METHANE DOES NOT WARM FASTER THAN AIR.- Hide quoted text -

Chemist, here is the reason:
When heat is lost to the air, some is absorbed by nitrogen, some is
absorbed by oxygen, and a tiny amount is absorbed by argon, carbon
dioxide, water vapor, and trace gases. You can write:

Heat absorbed by one mole of air = heat absorbed by O2 + heat absorbed
by N2 + ...
= xO2Cp(O2) T + xN2Cp(N2) T + ...

where xO2 and xN2 are moles of oxygen and moles of nitrogen per mole
of air, and Cp(O2) and Cp(N2) are the constant pressure molar heat
capacites for pure oxygen and nitrogen gases.

Assuming that air is 21% oxygen, and 79% nitrogen by volume. If you
can assume that the air behaves ideally, Avogadro>s law says that the
volume fraction for each gas is also its mole fraction. However, gases
like CO2, H2O and methane (CH4) do not behave like an ideal gas.

Uh,
[/quote]
Didn>t you mean "Doh"

[quote]relevance?

As O2 and N2 are di-atomic gases, but CO2, H2O and methane are three-
and four- atomic gases, they have more degrees of freedom, i.e.
infrared energy can be converted more easily into intra-molecular
atomic vibrations which is equal kinetic energy or heat energy. As a
result, these gases (including water as vapor) are heated up more
easily than oxygen and nitrogen by Infrared (IR) radiation.

Note that the AGW whackos have been very careful not to quantify
this. They want to keep it vague so that their vague non-hypothesis
can never be tested.

This
conversion of radiation energy to kinetic energy by the way is the
principal of IR spectroscopy. The higher energetic ultraviolet
radiation (UV) is causing excitations of outer electrons (used for
instance in the UV spectroscopy). This “absorbed” energy can be
converted partially in kinetic swinging energy (resulting in heat
production) and partially is emitted again as radiation energy.

This is all standard procedures that are specifically avoided by the
AGW scam artists. Instead they spend all their energies on worthless
computer models in the hope to draw attention away from the kind of
analysis you are starting to pursue here.

Keep up the good work.
[/quote]
Thanks for a good giggle there, Denkipoo

Guest

On Oct 31, 8:36 am, Bolaleman <hull...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 31, 6:07 am, chemist <tom-bol...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

On Oct 31, 1:45 am, Roger Coppock <rcopp...@adnc.com> wrote:

The TV science series "Mythbusters" did a
"Young Scientists Special." It aired on
4/26/08 (Season 6, Episode 8). One of the
items they put to the test was greenhouse
gas theory. They made 4 large rectangular
chambers added CO2 to one, CH4 to another,
and used the remaining two for controls.

They simulated the Earth by shining a light
through the clear mylar on one side onto
a black painted surface at the other side.
the greenhouse gas chambers were warmer
and melted more ice than the control groups.
They confirmed that CO2 and CH4 can cause
greenhouse warming.

Tom Bolger should look at this demonstration
to see how to do this correctly. He>s failed too
many times and he needs help.

I found my copy on the LImewire™ network. This
episode is probably also available on DVD.
Please see:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1225053/

Give us more detail such as
were the containers open.
METHANE DOES NOT WARM FASTER THAN AIR.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Chemist, here is the reason:
When heat is lost to the air, some is absorbed by nitrogen, some is
absorbed by oxygen, and a tiny amount is absorbed by argon, carbon
dioxide, water vapor, and trace gases. You can write:

Heat absorbed by one mole of air = heat absorbed by O2 + heat absorbed
by N2 + ...
= xO2Cp(O2) T + xN2Cp(N2) T + ...

where xO2 and xN2 are moles of oxygen and moles of nitrogen per mole
of air, and Cp(O2) and Cp(N2) are the constant pressure molar heat
capacites for pure oxygen and nitrogen gases.

Assuming that air is 21% oxygen, and 79% nitrogen by volume. If you
can assume that the air behaves ideally, Avogadro>s law says that the
volume fraction for each gas is also its mole fraction. However, gases
like CO2, H2O and methane (CH4) do not behave like an ideal gas.

As O2 and N2 are di-atomic gases, but CO2, H2O and methane are three-
and four- atomic gases, they have more degrees of freedom, i.e.
infrared energy can be converted more easily into intra-molecular
atomic vibrations which is equal kinetic energy or heat energy. As a
result, these gases (including water as vapor) are heated up more
easily than oxygen and nitrogen by Infrared (IR) radiation. This
conversion of radiation energy to kinetic energy by the way is the
principal of IR spectroscopy. The higher energetic ultraviolet
radiation (UV) is causing excitations of outer electrons (used for
instance in the UV spectroscopy). This “absorbed” energy can be
converted partially in kinetic swinging energy (resulting in heat
production) and partially is emitted again as radiation energy.

-----------------
Find Green Jobs:http://2ajobguide.com/wind_jobs_solar_renewable_energy_jobs.aspx- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
[/quote]
I want to inform you that chemist is actually chemist not

John M. · Guest

On Oct 31, 7:28 pm, Benj <bjac...@iwaynet.net> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 30, 8:45 pm, Roger Coppock <rcopp...@adnc.com> wrote:

The TV science series "Mythbusters" did a
"Young Scientists Special." It aired on
4/26/08 (Season 6, Episode 8). One of the
items they put to the test was greenhouse
gas theory. They made 4 large rectangular
chambers added CO2 to one, CH4 to another,
and used the remaining two for controls.

The name "mythbusters" already makes this a suspect as a propaganda
vehicle. Note that all this proves is that one can measure the thermal
characteristics of PURE CO2 and CH4!

They simulated the Earth by shining a light
through the clear mylar on one side onto
a black painted surface at the other side.
the greenhouse gas chambers were warmer
and melted more ice than the control groups.
They confirmed that CO2 and CH4 can cause
greenhouse warming.

BZZZZZTTT! Wrong question. The right question is can CO2 cause ENOUGH
so-called "global-warming" to be significant. Hence to REALLY "bust"
the myth the experiment would have two chambers one with today>s air.
And the other with a mixture of air as measured about 1850 or some
other convenient pre-anthropogenic date. If today>s air is melting
huge chunks of ice and yesterday>s air is not,
[/quote]
And so it is:

http://igloo.atmos.uiuc.edu/cgi-bin/test/print.sh?fm=09&fd=14&fy=1980&sm=09&sd=14&sy=2008

[quote]perhaps THEN you>ll
have "busted" a "myth".

It is a shameful thing to abuse children with fake political
propaganda like this. This is almost as shameful as
[/quote]
putting them in bible classes and madrassahs

Bolaleman · Guest

On Oct 31, 3:00 pm, "John M." <john_howard_mor...@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
[quote]On Oct 31, 7:26 pm, Bill Ward <bw...@REMOVETHISix.netcom.com> wrote:

On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 08:36:36 -0700, Bolaleman wrote:
On Oct 31, 6:07 am, chemist <tom-bol...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
On Oct 31, 1:45 am, Roger Coppock <rcopp...@adnc.com> wrote:

The TV science series "Mythbusters" did a "Young Scientists Special."
It aired on 4/26/08 (Season 6, Episode 8). One of the items they
put to the test was greenhouse gas theory. They made 4 large
rectangular chambers added CO2 to one, CH4 to another, and used the
remaining two for controls.

They simulated the Earth by shining a light through the clear mylar on
one side onto a black painted surface at the other side. the
greenhouse gas chambers were warmer and melted more ice than the
control groups. They confirmed that CO2 and CH4 can cause greenhouse
warming.

Tom Bolger should look at this demonstration to see how to do this
correctly. He>s failed too many times and he needs help.

I found my copy on the LImewire™ network. This episode is probably
also available on DVD. Please see:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1225053/

Give us more detail such as
were the containers open.
METHANE DOES NOT WARM FASTER THAN AIR.
Chemist, here is the reason:
When heat is lost to the air, some is absorbed by nitrogen, some is
absorbed by oxygen, and a tiny amount is absorbed by argon, carbon
dioxide, water vapor, and trace gases. You can write:

Heat absorbed by one mole of air = heat absorbed by O2 + heat absorbed by
N2 + ...
= xO2Cp(O2) T + xN2Cp(N2) T + ...

where xO2 and xN2 are moles of oxygen and moles of nitrogen per mole of
air, and Cp(O2) and Cp(N2) are the constant pressure molar heat capacites
for pure oxygen and nitrogen gases.

Assuming that air is 21% oxygen, and 79% nitrogen by volume. If you can
assume that the air behaves ideally, Avogadro>s law says that the volume
fraction for each gas is also its mole fraction. However, gases like CO2,
H2O and methane (CH4) do not behave like an ideal gas.

As O2 and N2 are di-atomic gases, but CO2, H2O and methane are three- and
four- atomic gases, they have more degrees of freedom, i.e. infrared
energy can be converted more easily into intra-molecular atomic vibrations
which is equal kinetic energy or heat energy. As a result, these gases
(including water as vapor) are heated up more easily than oxygen and
nitrogen by Infrared (IR) radiation. This conversion of radiation energy
to kinetic energy by the way is the principal of IR spectroscopy. The
higher energetic ultraviolet radiation (UV) is causing excitations of
outer electrons (used for instance in the UV spectroscopy). This
“absorbed” energy can be converted partially in kinetic swinging
energy (resulting in heat production) and partially is emitted again as
radiation energy.

Fine, but IR has nothing to do with it. The experiment heated the gases
by conduction and convection from the black background.

So the atmosphere is not heated at all by conduction and convection?
sarcasm

Even back in the 1850>s, Tyndall pointed out the need to keep
the radiation source and detectors completely thermally isolated
from the sample gas. It>s still true.

Golly jeepers. The Laws of Physics didn>t change in 150 years. Oh,
except that CO2 stopped being a GHG for some strange reason <more
sarcasm

Those demonstrations do not show anything but the density and thermal
properties of the gases.

Did nobody tell this clod that molecular rotation and vibration, along
with translation, are thermal properties of gases. <no sarcasm

They are being shown to gullible children as propaganda.

You mean like in bible classes <further sarcasm>- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
[/quote]
Conduction and Convection are the macroscopic mechanism for heat
transfer from one molecule to the other. What I tried to explain are
the "microscopic" molecular mechanisms of energy conversion from
radiation energy to kinetic energy.

Claudius Denk · Guest

On Oct 31, 11:32 am, AR-
<Ginger.Gr...@bettertakethisoutfirst.gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]Claudius Denk wrote:
On Oct 31, 8:36 am, Bolaleman <hull...@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Oct 31, 6:07 am, chemist <tom-bol...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

snip

Give us more detail such as
were the containers open.
METHANE DOES NOT WARM FASTER THAN AIR.- Hide quoted text -

Chemist, here is the reason:
When heat is lost to the air, some is absorbed by nitrogen, some is
absorbed by oxygen, and a tiny amount is absorbed by argon, carbon
dioxide, water vapor, and trace gases. You can write:

Heat absorbed by one mole of air = heat absorbed by O2 + heat absorbed
by N2 + ...
= xO2Cp(O2) T + xN2Cp(N2) T + ...

where xO2 and xN2 are moles of oxygen and moles of nitrogen per mole
of air, and Cp(O2) and Cp(N2) are the constant pressure molar heat
capacites for pure oxygen and nitrogen gases.

Assuming that air is 21% oxygen, and 79% nitrogen by volume. If you
can assume that the air behaves ideally, Avogadro>s law says that the
volume fraction for each gas is also its mole fraction. However, gases
like CO2, H2O and methane (CH4) do not behave like an ideal gas.

Uh, relevance?

I am assuming that he is presenting an argument that accounts for the
fact that 1) methane is a "global warming gas", that is it absorbs
radiation at a much greater rate than "non-global warming gases", yet 2)
a container of pure methane does not heat up at a higher rate than a
container of just air--that is, because of the contribution of the other
global warming gases in the column of air. I>m assuming that is the
purpose for pointing out the greater ability of some gases to absorb
radiation than others (though I admit, the argument presented also puts
methane in the more readily heated group). I do not know whether the
argument is sound, but if so, it would be a proper way to account for
the equal heating rates (though there is no way to know the truth of
that either seeing chemist does not have the habit of citing sources,
thus there is no difference in his presentation of fact, fiction,
propaganda, and delusion).
[/quote]
I don>t think Bolaleman intended anything but the illusion that he
actually understood any of this.

Rest assured, AGW scam artists will never delineate the mechanistic
aspects of their absurd notions about CO2 because if they did their
whole premise would become testable--and that>s the last thing they
want.

Bolaleman · Guest

On Oct 31, 3:40 pm, Claudius Denk <claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 31, 11:32 am, AR-

Ginger.Gr...@bettertakethisoutfirst.gmail.com> wrote:
Claudius Denk wrote:
On Oct 31, 8:36 am, Bolaleman <hull...@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Oct 31, 6:07 am, chemist <tom-bol...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

snip

Give us more detail such as
were the containers open.
METHANE DOES NOT WARM FASTER THAN AIR.- Hide quoted text -

Chemist, here is the reason:
When heat is lost to the air, some is absorbed by nitrogen, some is
absorbed by oxygen, and a tiny amount is absorbed by argon, carbon
dioxide, water vapor, and trace gases. You can write:

Heat absorbed by one mole of air = heat absorbed by O2 + heat absorbed
by N2 + ...
= xO2Cp(O2) T + xN2Cp(N2) T + ...

where xO2 and xN2 are moles of oxygen and moles of nitrogen per mole
of air, and Cp(O2) and Cp(N2) are the constant pressure molar heat
capacites for pure oxygen and nitrogen gases.

Assuming that air is 21% oxygen, and 79% nitrogen by volume. If you
can assume that the air behaves ideally, Avogadro>s law says that the
volume fraction for each gas is also its mole fraction. However, gases
like CO2, H2O and methane (CH4) do not behave like an ideal gas.

Uh, relevance?

I am assuming that he is presenting an argument that accounts for the
fact that 1) methane is a "global warming gas", that is it absorbs
radiation at a much greater rate than "non-global warming gases", yet 2)
a container of pure methane does not heat up at a higher rate than a
container of just air--that is, because of the contribution of the other
global warming gases in the column of air. I>m assuming that is the
purpose for pointing out the greater ability of some gases to absorb
radiation than others (though I admit, the argument presented also puts
methane in the more readily heated group). I do not know whether the
argument is sound, but if so, it would be a proper way to account for
the equal heating rates (though there is no way to know the truth of
that either seeing chemist does not have the habit of citing sources,
thus there is no difference in his presentation of fact, fiction,
propaganda, and delusion).

I don>t think Bolaleman intended anything but the illusion that he
actually understood any of this.

Rest assured, AGW scam artists will never delineate the mechanistic
aspects of their absurd notions about CO2 because if they did their
whole premise would become testable--and that>s the last thing they
want.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
[/quote]

If you don>t believe this you need to learn about the van der Waals
gas theory!
Let>s discuss once you understood this.

John M. · Guest

On Oct 31, 9:47 pm, Bill Ward <bw...@REMOVETHISix.netcom.com> wrote:
[quote]On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 12:00:14 -0700, John M. wrote:
On Oct 31, 7:26 pm, Bill Ward <bw...@REMOVETHISix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Fri, 31 Oct 2008 08:36:36 -0700, Bolaleman wrote:
On Oct 31, 6:07 am, chemist <tom-bol...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
On Oct 31, 1:45 am, Roger Coppock <rcopp...@adnc.com> wrote:

The TV science series "Mythbusters" did a "Young Scientists
Special."
It aired on 4/26/08 (Season 6, Episode 8). One of the items they
put to the test was greenhouse gas theory. They made 4 large
rectangular chambers added CO2 to one, CH4 to another, and used the
remaining two for controls.

They simulated the Earth by shining a light through the clear mylar
on one side onto a black painted surface at the other side. the
greenhouse gas chambers were warmer and melted more ice than the
control groups. They confirmed that CO2 and CH4 can cause
greenhouse warming.

Tom Bolger should look at this demonstration to see how to do this
correctly. He>s failed too many times and he needs help.

I found my copy on the LImewire™ network. This episode is
probably also available on DVD. Please see:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1225053/

Give us more detail such as
were the containers open.
METHANE DOES NOT WARM FASTER THAN AIR.
Chemist, here is the reason:
When heat is lost to the air, some is absorbed by nitrogen, some is
absorbed by oxygen, and a tiny amount is absorbed by argon, carbon
dioxide, water vapor, and trace gases. You can write:

Heat absorbed by one mole of air = heat absorbed by O2 + heat absorbed
by N2 + ...
= xO2Cp(O2) T + xN2Cp(N2) T + ...

where xO2 and xN2 are moles of oxygen and moles of nitrogen per mole
of air, and Cp(O2) and Cp(N2) are the constant pressure molar heat
capacites for pure oxygen and nitrogen gases.

Assuming that air is 21% oxygen, and 79% nitrogen by volume. If you
can assume that the air behaves ideally, Avogadro>s law says that the
volume fraction for each gas is also its mole fraction. However, gases
like CO2, H2O and methane (CH4) do not behave like an ideal gas.

As O2 and N2 are di-atomic gases, but CO2, H2O and methane are three-
and four- atomic gases, they have more degrees of freedom, i.e.
infrared energy can be converted more easily into intra-molecular
atomic vibrations which is equal kinetic energy or heat energy. As a
result, these gases (including water as vapor) are heated up more
easily than oxygen and nitrogen by Infrared (IR) radiation. This
conversion of radiation energy to kinetic energy by the way is the
principal of IR spectroscopy. The higher energetic ultraviolet
radiation (UV) is causing excitations of outer electrons (used for
instance in the UV spectroscopy). This “absorbed” energy can be
converted partially in kinetic swinging energy (resulting in heat
production) and partially is emitted again as radiation energy.

Fine, but IR has nothing to do with it. The experiment heated the gases
by conduction and convection from the black background.

So the atmosphere is not heated at all by conduction and convection?
sarcasm

Even back in the 1850>s, Tyndall pointed out the need to keep
the radiation source and detectors completely thermally isolated from
the sample gas. It>s still true.

Golly jeepers. The Laws of Physics didn>t change in 150 years. Oh, except
that CO2 stopped being a GHG for some strange reason <more sarcasm

Those demonstrations do not show anything but the density and thermal
properties of the gases.

Did nobody tell this clod that molecular rotation and vibration, along
with translation, are thermal properties of gases. <no sarcasm

They are being shown to gullible children as propaganda.

You mean like in bible classes <further sarcasm

John seems to be losing it. Maybe it>s related to the climate
cooling down.
[/quote]
Strange that one who speaks nonsense like "...climate cooling down."
imagines another person is the one losing it.


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