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Dan Clore · Guest

Ten years of therapy in one night

Could a single trip on a piece of African rootbark help a
junkie kick the habit? That was the claim in the 1960s, and
now iboga is back in the spotlight. But is it a miracle
cure? Daniel Pinchbeck decided to give it a go. And life, he
says, will never be the same again...

Saturday September 20, 2003
The Guardian

In 1962, Howard Lotsof, a 19-year-old heroin addict in New
York, ordered from a chemist iboga, a plant used in West
African rituals, and tried it for extra kicks. After
consuming the bitter rootbark powder, he experienced a
visionary tour of his early memories. Thirty hours later,
when the effects had subsided, he found that he had lost all
craving for heroin, without withdrawal symptoms of any kind.
He said he then gave iboga to seven other addicts and five
stopped taking drugs immediately afterwards.

In 1985, Lotsof patented the ibogaine molecule for the
purposes of addiction treatment, but could not get his
treatment approved. In the interim years, ibogaine had been
declared, along with LSD and several other psychedelic
molecules, an illegal "schedule one" substance, with
potential for abuse and no medical value. Although it found
dedicated support among a ragtag group of countercultural
activists and left-over Yippies, in 1995 the National
Institutes of Health discontinued research into the
substance, and pharmaceutical companies have since ignored
it, perhaps due to low profit potential.

But now, interest in ibogaine is growing rapidly, passing a
"tipping point" through a combination of anecdotal evidence,
underground activism, journalism and scientific research.
Articles have appeared in US publications ranging from the
authoritative Journal Of The American Medical Association
(Jama) to the populist Star. The Jama piece, Addiction
Treatment Strives For Legitimacy, described the drug>s
stalled and tortured path through the regulatory agencies,
noting that the treatment>s frustrated supporters in the US
have set up an "underground railroad" to give addicts access
to the drug: "While unknowable scores of addicts continue
ingesting ibogaine hydrochloride purified powder - or iboga
whole-plant extract containing a dozen or more active
alkaloids - few trained researchers witness the events."

The Star took a more colourful approach: "Rare Root Has
Celebs Buzzing" it said, trumpeting the treatment as the hot
ticket for "the numerous celebs who look for relief from
their tough lives in the bottom of a bottle of Jack
Daniel>s, a needle or prescription medicine". The article
insinuates that "some of our favourite A-listers" not only
get cured but enjoy the hallucinations as an illicit "fringe
benefit". Outside the US, new clinics have opened in Mexico,
Canada and Europe, offering reasonably priced, medically
supervised opportunities to try ibogaine as a method of
overcoming addiction. In fact, at one new clinic in
Vancouver, the treatment is free.

Iboga is the sacred essence of the religion of the Bwiti
tribe of Gabon and Cameroon. Most members of the tribe
ingest it just once in their lives, during an initiation
ceremony in which massive amounts of the powdered bark are
consumed. Through this ritual, they become a baanzi, one who
has seen the other world. "Iboga brings about the visual,
tactile and auditory certainty of the irrefutable existence
of the beyond," wrote the French chemist Robert Goutarel,
who studied the Bwiti. The iboga bark>s visionary power is
produced by a complicated cocktail of alkaloids that seems
to affect many of the known neurotransmitters, including
serotonin and dopamine. Its complex molecular key may lock
into the addiction receptors in a way that resets patterns
and blocks the feedback loops that reinforce dependency.

In an essay on ibogaine>s anti-addictive properties, Dr Carl
Anderson of McLean Hospital, Virginia, speculated that
addiction is related to a disrupted relationship between the
brain>s two hemispheres, and that ibogaine may cause
"bihemispheric reintegration". Ibogaine also accesses REM
sleep in a powerful way - many people need considerably less
sleep for several months after an ibogaine trip.

Six years ago, I became a member of the Bwiti. I had heard
about ibogaine from an assistant in an anarchist bookstore
in New York. On a magazine assignment, I went to Gabon and
took iboga in an initiation ceremony. It was one of the most
difficult, yet rewarding, experiences of my life. I had
heard the substance described as "10 years of psychoanalysis
in a single night" but, of course, I did not believe it. As
the tribesmen played drums and sang around me until dawn, I
lay on a concrete floor and journeyed back through the
course of my life up to that point, witnessing forgotten
scenes from childhood. At one point, I had a vision of a
wooden statue walking across the room and sitting in front
of me - later, I was told this was "the spirit of iboga"
coming out to communicate with me.

My Bwiti initiation was complicated by a belligerent, greedy
shaman who called himself The King and demanded more money
from us before, during and after the ceremony. The King was
also dissatisfied with the visions I described, and
threatened to keep feeding me more iboga until I reported
more impressive sights. The initiation, which lasted more
than 20 hours, was ultimately liberating. At one point, I
was shown my habitual overuse of alcohol and the effect it
was having on my relationships, my writing and my psyche.
When I returned to the US, I steadily reduced my drinking to
a fraction of its previous level - an adjustment that seems
to be permanent.

Recently, I tried ibogaine for a second time. I took it at
the Ibogaine Association, a clinic in Rosarito, Mexico. I
had been contacted by a heroin addict who had been inspired
to take ibogaine after reading the book I wrote about my
experiences: three months after his first treatment in
Mexico, he was still clean - after a 12-year dependency. He
told me, "Your book saved my life." He had given Dr Martin
Polanco, the clinic>s founder, a copy of my book, and he had
offered me a free treatment. I was curious to see how the
experience would differ away from its tribal context. My new
friend wanted to take it again to reinforce the effect. We
went down together.

Polanco estimates that his clinic has treated nearly 200
addicts in its first 18 months. About one third of those
patients have managed to stay clean - either permanently or
for a considerable period; many have returned for a second
treatment. "Ibogaine needs to be much more widely
available," Polanco says. "We still have a lot to learn
about how to administer it, how to work with it." He does
not think iboga is a cure for addiction, but is convinced it
is a powerful tool for treatment - and, in some cases, it is
a cure. He plans to set up several non-profit clinics. "This
is something that should be non-profit," he says. "After
all, it is a plant. It came up from the earth. It does give
you some guidance. It shows you how you really are." He
chuckles. "That can be scary."

The Ibogaine Therapy House in Vancouver, British Columbia,
opened last November. "So far, we have treated 14 people
quite well," says Marc Emery, the clinic>s founder and head
of the BC Marijuana Party. "They all say that their life has
improved." Emery, nicknamed the "Prince of Pot", is funding
the free clinic with proceeds from his successful hemp seed
business. "Ibogaine stops the physical addiction without
causing withdrawal," he says, "and it deals with the
underlying psychological issues that lead to drug use."

Emery estimates that treatment for each patient at the
clinic costs around $1,500 (£943), which includes two
administrations of the drug. "When I found out about
ibogaine, I felt that someone should be researching this,
but the drug companies aren>t interested because there is no
commercial potential in this type of cure." Neither he nor
Polanco is too concerned about ambiguous studies on
ibogaine>s toxicity. As the Jama article noted, "One
reviewer wrote that the drug>s toxicology profile was 'less
than ideal', with bradycardia [an abnormally slow heartbeat]
leading the list of worrisome adverse effects."

"From the masses of reports I have studied, a total of six
people have died around the time they took ibogaine," says
Emery. "Some were in poor health, some took other drugs at
the time of their treatment. That doesn>t scare me off. I
have a lot of confidence in ibogaine."

At this stage, with little scientific study, the true
toxicology of ibogaine is impossible to determine - the
treatment is unlicensed in other countries and illegal in
the US. The decision whether or not to take such a risk is
entirely personal. Emery notes that his clinic screens for
heart problems and other medical conditions that might
contraindicate the treatment. It also gives patients small
daily doses of iboga for two weeks after their initial
treatment. "Iboga tends to make anything bad for you taste
really crappy. If possible, we want our patients to quit
cigarettes at the same time. We think that cigarettes can
lead people back to other addictions."

Emery notes that nobody has so far criticised the project,
and he is seeking support from local government. "Iboga
tells you to change your ways or else - it goes over all of
your health and personal issues. It is like the ghost of
Christmas past."

Randy Hencken drove us from San Diego to the Ibogaine
Association. A 25-year-old former heroin addict who had
kicked the habit after two ibogaine treatments at the
clinic, he was now working for the association, going to
local methadone centres with flyers and keeping in contact
with former patients. The first treatment costs $2,800
(£1,760), including an initial medical examination and
several days' convalescence afterwards, but subsequent
visits are only $600 (£377) - and it seems most addicts need
at least two doses of ibogaine to avoid relapsing.

The Ibogaine Association is in a quiet, dignified house
overlooking the Pacific, decorated with Buddhist statues and
yarn paintings from Mexico>s Huichol people. I was given a
medical examination by Polanco and a test dose of the drug.
Twentyminutes after ingesting the test dose, I started to
feel nervous and light-headed. As I took the other pills - a
gel-capped extract of the rootbark powder - I realised I was
in for a serious trip.

The nurse led me back to my room. My head already spinning,
I lay back on the bed as she hooked me up to an
electrocardiograph and headphones playing ambient music.Why
was I doing this again? Ibogaine is no pleasure trip. It not
only causes violent nausea and vomiting, but many of the
"visions" it induces amount to a painful parading of one>s
deepest faults and moral failings. I had a loud, unpleasant
buzzing in my ears - the Bwiti probably pound on drums
throughout the ceremony to overwhelm this noise. With my
eyes closed, I watched as images began to emerge like
patterns out of TV static. I saw a black man in a
1940s-looking suit. He was holding the hand of a
five-year-old girl and leading her up some stairs. I
understood that the girl in the vision was me and that the
man represented the spirit of iboga. He was going to show me
around his castle.

While startling at the time, such an encounter with a
seeming "spirit of iboga" is a typical vision produced by
the Bwiti sacrament. In many accounts, people describe
meeting a primordial African couple in the jungle.
Sometimes, the iboga spirit manifests itself as a "ball of
light" that speaks to the baanzi, saying, "Do you know who I
am? I am the chief of the world, I am the essential point!"
Part of my trip took the form of an interview that was
almost journalistic. I could ask direct questions of "Mr
Iboga" and receive answers that were like emphatic,
telegraphed shouts inside my head - even in my deeply stoned
state, I managed to scrawl down in my notebook many of the
responses.

I askedMr Iboga what iboga was. I was told simply:
"Primordial wisdom teacher of humanity!"

Later, my personal faults and lazy, decadent habits were
replayed for me in detail. When I asked what I should do,
the answer was stern and paternal: "Get it straight now!"

This ideal of straightness, uprightness, kept returning
during the trip - a meaningful image for me, as I suffer
from scoliosis, a curvature of the spine. When I was shown
other faults that seemed rather petty and insignificant, I
tried to protest that some of these things really didn>t
matter. Iboga would have none of it, insisting: "Everything
matters!"

Iboga told me that I had no idea of the potential
significance of even the smallest actions. I reviewed some
events in my life and my friends' lives that seemed bitterly
unfair. Yet, in this altered state, I felt I could sense a
karmic pattern behind all of them, perhaps extending back to
previous incarnations. Iboga affirmed this, dictating: "God
is just!"

To many readers, these insights may sound trivial. They did
not feel that way at the time. They were delivered with
great force and minimalist precision. While they might have
been manifestations of my own mind, they seemed like the
voice of an "other". Generally, I never think in such direct
terms about "God", and "primordial wisdom teacher" is not my
syntax.

During the night, I had numerous visions and ponderous
metaphysical insights. At one point, I seemed to fly through
the solar system and into the sun, where winged beings were
spinning around the core at a tremendous rate. Up close,
they looked like the gold-tinged angels in early Renaissance
paintings. Perhaps due to my recent reading of the Austrian
visionary Rudolf Steiner, this whole trip had a kind of
eco-Christian flavour to it. At one point, I thought of
humans as an expression of the Gaian Mind, the earth>s
sensory organs and self-reflective capacities, at the
planet>s present state of development. If we are changing
quickly right now, I considered, it is only because the
earth has entered an accelerated phase of transformation,
forcing a fast evolution in human consciousness.

The loud buzzing sound that ibogaine produced seemed to be
something like a dial tone, as if the alkaloid were in
itself a device for communicating on a different frequency
than the usual one. Thinking of my girlfriend and our child,
I realised that I was lucky - "You are lucky!" Mr Iboga
echoed. I felt tremendous, tearful gratitude that I had been
given a chance to live and love, to explore and try to
understand so many things.

As so often these days, I pondered on the terrible state of
the world - wars and terrors and environmental ruin. I saw
sheets of radioactive flame devouring cities, huge crowds
reduced to cinders. I asked Mr Iboga if this was going to be
the tragic fate of humanity. The answer I received was
startling - and reassuring: "Everything is safe in God>s hands!"

As ludicrous as it may sound, this message has stayed with
me and alleviated much paranoia and anxiety. While tripping,
I decided that Mr Iboga was a form of enlightened mind, like
a buddha who had chosen a different form, as a plant spirit
rather than human teacher, to work with humanity, imparting
a cosmic message of "tough love". At one point I asked if he
would consider incarnating as a person, and the answer I got
was, basically, "Already did that!" - implying that, in some
previous cycle, he had passed through the perilous stages of
evolution we are now navigating. I also came away from this
trip with the suspicion that iboga was the original
inspiration for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil
in the Biblical tale. The plant>s placement in equatorial
Africa, cradle of humanity, would support this idea, as well
as its sobering moral rectitude. The "good and evil" that
iboga reveals is not abstract but deeply personal, and
rooted in the character of the individual.

Late in the night, I retched and vomited out bitter rootbark
residue. I put on a CD of African drumming. Closing my eyes,
I watched a group of smiling Bwiti women dance around a
jungle bonfire. After that, the visions died down, although
it was impossible to sleep until late the next night.

My friend in recovery had a less visionary experience. His
faults were also paraded in front of him in repetitive loops
that seemed endless. At one point, I heard him scream out,
"No! No! No!" He saw a possible future for himself if he
didn>t kick heroin - becoming a dishwasher, sinking into
dissolute old age with a bad back and a paunch. He asked
what he could do to help save the world. He was told: "Clean
up your room!" Meditating on his experience later, my friend
quipped, "Ibogaine is God>s way of saying, 'You>re mine!' "

· Daniel Pinchbeck>s book about his experiences, Breaking
Open The Head: A Visionary Journey From Cynicism To
Shamanism, is published by Flamingo at £12

--
Dan Clore

Now available: _The Unspeakable and Others_
http://www.wildsidepress.com/index2.htm
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1587154838/thedanclorenecro
Lord Weÿrdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/
News for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo

"It>s a political statement -- or, rather, an
*anti*-political statement. The symbol for *anarchy*!"
-- Batman, explaining the circle-A graffiti, in
_Detective Comics_ #608

Hogarth · Guest

In article <bknk89$3ld7b$1@ID-105889.news.uni-berlin.de>,
Dan Clore <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote:

[quote]Ten years of therapy in one night

Could a single trip on a piece of African rootbark help a
junkie kick the habit? That was the claim in the 1960s, and
now iboga is back in the spotlight. But is it a miracle
cure? Daniel Pinchbeck decided to give it a go. And life, he
says, will never be the same again...

Saturday September 20, 2003
The Guardian

[snip][/quote]

Dan-

Thanks for sharing this. I met Daniel at Burning Man last month, after
he gave a talk at Palenque Norte>s camp. In the talk, he mentioned
ibogaine a few times. I>ve been meaning to look more deeply into this,
and you just helped get me moving!

One link he mentioned in his talk that I didn>t see in the article you
posted was:

http://www.ibogaine-therapy.net

Thought I>d pass it along.

(By the way, his book "Breaking Open the Head" seems to have a different
subtitle in the US: "A Psychedelic Journey into the Heart of
Contemporary Shamanism." I highly recommend it!)

Hogarth

Walkaway · Guest

-----
Dan Clore <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote:
-----
[quote]Ten years of therapy in one night
-----[/quote]
I seem to recall similar claims for both MDMA and LSD, both substances
with considerably better safety profiles than ibogaine.
-----
[quote]Could a single trip on a piece of African rootbark help a
junkie kick the habit?
-----[/quote]
Maybe, but it could also kill hir. As noted in this article, 6 deaths
are known to have occurred in clinical environments. There have been
many more in the native Bwiti cults. Ibogaine appears to be a
seriously toxic drug.
-----
[quote]That was the claim in the 1960s, and now iboga is back in the
spotlight.
-----[/quote]
Actually, there appeared to be a lot more focus on LSD as an
anti-addictive agent in the 1960s.
-----
[quote]But is it a miracle cure?
-----[/quote]
My guess: no. I tend to think that it is overly toxic, and that most,
if not all, of it>s beneficial effects on addictions could be
replicated with DXM or ketamine more safely.
-----
[quote]Although it found dedicated support among a ragtag group
of countercultural activists and left-over Yippies, in
1995 the National Institutes of Health discontinued
research into the substance, and pharmaceutical
companies have since ignored it, perhaps due to low
profit potential.
-----[/quote]
A more likely explanation is that drugs that have a serious chance of
killing someone are not likely to be marketed as medicines.
-----
[quote]But now, interest in ibogaine is growing rapidly, passing a
"tipping point" through a combination of anecdotal evidence,
underground activism, journalism and scientific research.
-----[/quote]
Most of ibogaine>s mystique appears to me to be largely a matter of
myth-making.
-----
[quote]Articles have appeared in US publications ranging from the
authoritative Journal Of The American Medical Association
(Jama) to the populist Star. The Jama piece, Addiction
Treatment Strives For Legitimacy, described the drug>s
stalled and tortured path through the regulatory agencies,
noting that the treatment>s frustrated supporters in the US
have set up an "underground railroad" to give addicts access
to the drug: "While unknowable scores of addicts continue
ingesting ibogaine hydrochloride purified powder - or iboga
whole-plant extract containing a dozen or more active
alkaloids - few trained researchers witness the events."
-----[/quote]
DXM is also the focus of research into anti-addictive applications, as
is ketamine. Both seem considerably safer than ibogaine. LSD would
be safer than all, though it may lack some of the specific
neurological effects that make DXM or ibogaine effective in treating
the physiological aspects of physical dependence.
-----
[quote]Iboga is the sacred essence of the religion of the Bwiti
tribe of Gabon and Cameroon. Most members of the tribe
ingest it just once in their lives, during an initiation
ceremony in which massive amounts of the powdered bark are
consumed. Through this ritual, they become a baanzi, one who
has seen the other world. "Iboga brings about the visual,
tactile and auditory certainty of the irrefutable existence
of the beyond," wrote the French chemist Robert Goutarel,
who studied the Bwiti.
-----[/quote]
"...[It] is not surprising that the death of initiates is commented
upon in all cults. And even more deaths would be experienced if the
initiates were not occasionally allowed to move around and evacuate!
In mid-course they are sometimes taken to a stream to be ritually
cleansed. In the last forty years there have been perhaps a dozen
cases of murder or manslaughter brought against Bwiti cult leaders who
lost initiates through overdosage."
-----
(Fernandez, Tabernanthe Iboga: Narcotic Ecstasis and the Work of the
Ancestors, p. 248 of Flesh of the Gods: The Ritual Use of
Hallucinogens; the entire selection is found in pp. 237-60)
-----
Interestingly enough, the same selection contains the results of a
survey that the author conducted among eboka initiates in which 23%
reported experiencing "nothing out of the ordinary." (ibid., p. 251)
-----
This article is several decades old. There have doubtless been more
deaths in the native cults since that time.
-----
[quote]Neither he nor Polanco is too concerned about ambiguous
studies on ibogaine>s toxicity. As the Jama article
noted, "One reviewer wrote that the drug>s toxicology
profile was 'less than ideal', with bradycardia
[an abnormally slow heartbeat] leading the list of
worrisome adverse effects."
-----[/quote]
"Yet another source of reports is to be found in some studies that are
exploring ibogaine as a treatment for heroin dependency (see De Rienzo
and Beal). This end-goal of searching for evidence of addiction
confrontation and addiction control certainly can color any published
reports in its own way. Here, its the chemical ibogaine only that is
used, and typical dosages are at or above 1000 milligrams."
-----
"As was pointed out in a pharmacological review (see Popik et al.), as
the hallucinogenic dose appears to be several times higher than the
stimulant dose, the user must endure intense and unpleasant central
stimulation in order to experience the hallucinogenic effects."
-----
(http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/tihkal25.shtml)
-----
"Ibogaine Death in Germany - July 2002
A young woman tragically died during an informal ibogaine session in
Germany last month (July 2002). The death occurred about one and a
half hours after taking 500mg of ibogaine HCl for personal development
purposes. The cause of death is not yet established. The woman, aged
35 years and weighing 63 kg, had used the drug previously on one
occasion without problem. Her partner has requested that I put out
this basic announcement. More details will be posted once they become
available. Note this is the fifth recorded ibogaine-related death in
the last 10 years."
-----
(http://www.ibogaine.co.uk/new.htm)
-----
"PSYCHEDELIC ADDICTION TREATMENT FACES BAN AFTER HEROIN USER>S DEATH"
-----
(http://www.ibogaine.co.uk/issue.htm)
---
IBOGAINE-ASSOCIATED DEATH IN A FEMALE HEROIN ADDICT:
FORENSIC AND TOXICOLOGICAL ASPECTS
Maciej J. Bogusz, Helmut Althoff, Deborah Mash, W. Lee Hearn

A case involving the death of a young female heroin addict after
ibogaine administration is reported. The drug was alleged to have been
administered orally at a dose of 23 mg/kg and later on an additional 6
mg/kg was administered in the course of experimental and officially
unapproved anti-addictive therapy. The patient collapsed and died
about 19 h after ibogaine administration.
Extremely high levels of drug and its active metabolite
(12-OH-ibogaine) were found in blood. The following concentrations
(mg/L) of ibogaine and its active metabolite 12-OH-ibogain were
determined by GC-MS(1): ibogaine in femoral blood 0.710, in heart
blood 0.730, 12-OH-ibogaine in femoral blood 3.900, in heart blood
10.700. In experimental studies the concentration of drugs in blood
samples taken 19 h after administration of ibogaine 20 mg/kg were:
0.1-0.2 mg/l for ibogaine and 0.5-1.1 for 12-OH-ibogaine. The
circumstances of the case showed that the "therapy" was performed in
an unprofessional way and the minimal medical standards were not met.

1. W.L. Hearn, J. Pablo, G. Hime and D.C. Mash, J.Anal.Toxicol. 19:
427-34, 1995.
-----
(http://www.tiaft.org/tiaft98/thu/t_o_26.html)
-----
DOCUMENTARY MAKER MAY FILM HIS OWN DEATH

AN ACCLAIMED documentary maker has admitted that he is prepared to die
while filming himself taking a powerful hallucinogenic drug that has
been hailed as a cure for addiction but linked to a number of deaths
around the world.
-----
(http://mail.psychedelic-library.org/show.cfm?postid=4021&row=45)
-----
"In high doses, it produces a hallucinatory inebriation with motor
incoordination, and sometimes a state of lethargy lasting 4 to 5 days.
In massive doses, ibogaine may cause death as a result of bulbar
involvement and paralysis of the respiratory muscles."
-----
(http://www.ibogaine.org/barabe.html)
-----
[quote]"From the masses of reports I have studied, a total of six
people have died around the time they took ibogaine," says
Emery.
-----[/quote]
Many more have died in the course of native use of the drug in a
ritual context.
-----
[quote]"Some were in poor health, some took other drugs at
the time of their treatment. That doesn>t scare me off. I
have a lot of confidence in ibogaine."
-----[/quote]
It would appear to be misplaced.
-----
[quote]"Iboga tells you to change your ways or else - it goes over
all of your health and personal issues. It is like the
ghost of Christmas past."
-----[/quote]
Sounds like acid.
-----
Everything else in the article also sounded like typical psychedelic
fare, with, perhaps, a more toxic overlay.
-----
Namaste,
Cliff

Eboka · Guest

Don>t believe everything you read. Nothing new there. There have
been two fatalities under medical care since 1989. I support
methadone maintenance completely but, there have been approximately
one thousand methadone related fatatiies during 2002 and the last data
I have seen showed 216,000 fatalities in US hospitals from FDA
approved drugs in 1999. There have been no ibogaine related
fatalities in hospital environments and dosing and other issues are
more known now then they have been in the past for the use of
ibogaine. See http://www.ibogaine.org/manual.html

hug_a_cop1@hotmail.com (Walkaway) wrote in message news:<8409fb07.0309230112.14265648@posting.google.com>...
[quote]-----
Dan Clore <clore@columbia-center.org> wrote:
-----
Ten years of therapy in one night
-----
I seem to recall similar claims for both MDMA and LSD, both substances
with considerably better safety profiles than ibogaine.
-----
Could a single trip on a piece of African rootbark help a
junkie kick the habit?
-----
Maybe, but it could also kill hir. As noted in this article, 6 deaths
are known to have occurred in clinical environments. There have been
many more in the native Bwiti cults. Ibogaine appears to be a
seriously toxic drug.
-----
That was the claim in the 1960s, and now iboga is back in the
spotlight.
-----
Actually, there appeared to be a lot more focus on LSD as an
anti-addictive agent in the 1960s.
-----
But is it a miracle cure?
-----
My guess: no. I tend to think that it is overly toxic, and that most,
if not all, of it>s beneficial effects on addictions could be
replicated with DXM or ketamine more safely.
-----
Although it found dedicated support among a ragtag group
of countercultural activists and left-over Yippies, in
1995 the National Institutes of Health discontinued
research into the substance, and pharmaceutical
companies have since ignored it, perhaps due to low
profit potential.
-----
A more likely explanation is that drugs that have a serious chance of
killing someone are not likely to be marketed as medicines.
-----
But now, interest in ibogaine is growing rapidly, passing a
"tipping point" through a combination of anecdotal evidence,
underground activism, journalism and scientific research.
-----
Most of ibogaine>s mystique appears to me to be largely a matter of
myth-making.
-----
Articles have appeared in US publications ranging from the
authoritative Journal Of The American Medical Association
(Jama) to the populist Star. The Jama piece, Addiction
Treatment Strives For Legitimacy, described the drug>s
stalled and tortured path through the regulatory agencies,
noting that the treatment>s frustrated supporters in the US
have set up an "underground railroad" to give addicts access
to the drug: "While unknowable scores of addicts continue
ingesting ibogaine hydrochloride purified powder - or iboga
whole-plant extract containing a dozen or more active
alkaloids - few trained researchers witness the events."
-----
DXM is also the focus of research into anti-addictive applications, as
is ketamine. Both seem considerably safer than ibogaine. LSD would
be safer than all, though it may lack some of the specific
neurological effects that make DXM or ibogaine effective in treating
the physiological aspects of physical dependence.
-----
Iboga is the sacred essence of the religion of the Bwiti
tribe of Gabon and Cameroon. Most members of the tribe
ingest it just once in their lives, during an initiation
ceremony in which massive amounts of the powdered bark are
consumed. Through this ritual, they become a baanzi, one who
has seen the other world. "Iboga brings about the visual,
tactile and auditory certainty of the irrefutable existence
of the beyond," wrote the French chemist Robert Goutarel,
who studied the Bwiti.
-----
"...[It] is not surprising that the death of initiates is commented
upon in all cults. And even more deaths would be experienced if the
initiates were not occasionally allowed to move around and evacuate!
In mid-course they are sometimes taken to a stream to be ritually
cleansed. In the last forty years there have been perhaps a dozen
cases of murder or manslaughter brought against Bwiti cult leaders who
lost initiates through overdosage."
-----
(Fernandez, Tabernanthe Iboga: Narcotic Ecstasis and the Work of the
Ancestors, p. 248 of Flesh of the Gods: The Ritual Use of
Hallucinogens; the entire selection is found in pp. 237-60)
-----
Interestingly enough, the same selection contains the results of a
survey that the author conducted among eboka initiates in which 23%
reported experiencing "nothing out of the ordinary." (ibid., p. 251)
-----
This article is several decades old. There have doubtless been more
deaths in the native cults since that time.
-----
Neither he nor Polanco is too concerned about ambiguous
studies on ibogaine>s toxicity. As the Jama article
noted, "One reviewer wrote that the drug>s toxicology
profile was 'less than ideal', with bradycardia
[an abnormally slow heartbeat] leading the list of
worrisome adverse effects."
-----
"Yet another source of reports is to be found in some studies that are
exploring ibogaine as a treatment for heroin dependency (see De Rienzo
and Beal). This end-goal of searching for evidence of addiction
confrontation and addiction control certainly can color any published
reports in its own way. Here, its the chemical ibogaine only that is
used, and typical dosages are at or above 1000 milligrams."
-----
"As was pointed out in a pharmacological review (see Popik et al.), as
the hallucinogenic dose appears to be several times higher than the
stimulant dose, the user must endure intense and unpleasant central
stimulation in order to experience the hallucinogenic effects."
-----
(http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/tihkal25.shtml)
-----
"Ibogaine Death in Germany - July 2002
A young woman tragically died during an informal ibogaine session in
Germany last month (July 2002). The death occurred about one and a
half hours after taking 500mg of ibogaine HCl for personal development
purposes. The cause of death is not yet established. The woman, aged
35 years and weighing 63 kg, had used the drug previously on one
occasion without problem. Her partner has requested that I put out
this basic announcement. More details will be posted once they become
available. Note this is the fifth recorded ibogaine-related death in
the last 10 years."
-----
(http://www.ibogaine.co.uk/new.htm)
-----
"PSYCHEDELIC ADDICTION TREATMENT FACES BAN AFTER HEROIN USER>S DEATH"
-----
(http://www.ibogaine.co.uk/issue.htm)
---
IBOGAINE-ASSOCIATED DEATH IN A FEMALE HEROIN ADDICT:
FORENSIC AND TOXICOLOGICAL ASPECTS
Maciej J. Bogusz, Helmut Althoff, Deborah Mash, W. Lee Hearn

A case involving the death of a young female heroin addict after
ibogaine administration is reported. The drug was alleged to have been
administered orally at a dose of 23 mg/kg and later on an additional 6
mg/kg was administered in the course of experimental and officially
unapproved anti-addictive therapy. The patient collapsed and died
about 19 h after ibogaine administration.
Extremely high levels of drug and its active metabolite
(12-OH-ibogaine) were found in blood. The following concentrations
(mg/L) of ibogaine and its active metabolite 12-OH-ibogain were
determined by GC-MS(1): ibogaine in femoral blood 0.710, in heart
blood 0.730, 12-OH-ibogaine in femoral blood 3.900, in heart blood
10.700. In experimental studies the concentration of drugs in blood
samples taken 19 h after administration of ibogaine 20 mg/kg were:
0.1-0.2 mg/l for ibogaine and 0.5-1.1 for 12-OH-ibogaine. The
circumstances of the case showed that the "therapy" was performed in
an unprofessional way and the minimal medical standards were not met.

1. W.L. Hearn, J. Pablo, G. Hime and D.C. Mash, J.Anal.Toxicol. 19:
427-34, 1995.
-----
(http://www.tiaft.org/tiaft98/thu/t_o_26.html)
-----
DOCUMENTARY MAKER MAY FILM HIS OWN DEATH

AN ACCLAIMED documentary maker has admitted that he is prepared to die
while filming himself taking a powerful hallucinogenic drug that has
been hailed as a cure for addiction but linked to a number of deaths
around the world.
-----
(http://mail.psychedelic-library.org/show.cfm?postid=4021&row=45)
-----
"In high doses, it produces a hallucinatory inebriation with motor
incoordination, and sometimes a state of lethargy lasting 4 to 5 days.
In massive doses, ibogaine may cause death as a result of bulbar
involvement and paralysis of the respiratory muscles."
-----
(http://www.ibogaine.org/barabe.html)
-----
"From the masses of reports I have studied, a total of six
people have died around the time they took ibogaine," says
Emery.
-----
Many more have died in the course of native use of the drug in a
ritual context.
-----
"Some were in poor health, some took other drugs at
the time of their treatment. That doesn>t scare me off. I
have a lot of confidence in ibogaine."
-----
It would appear to be misplaced.
-----
"Iboga tells you to change your ways or else - it goes over
all of your health and personal issues. It is like the
ghost of Christmas past."
-----
Sounds like acid.
-----
Everything else in the article also sounded like typical psychedelic
fare, with, perhaps, a more toxic overlay.
-----
Namaste,
Cliff[/quote]

Walkaway · Guest

-----
eboka@aol.com (Eboka) wrote:
-----
[quote]Don>t believe everything you read.
-----[/quote]
Check.
-----
[quote]Nothing new there.
-----[/quote]
The fact that the drug appears to be more intrinsically toxic than
other drugs with similar effects is a matter of concern to me, and, I
would imagine, to many medical care providers.
-----
[quote]There have been two fatalities under medical care since 1989.
-----[/quote]
The link you provide states three. Setting aside other links that
claim more, including Mr. Emery>s statement on six total fatalities,
how many LSD related fatalities have occurred in therapy, ever?
Ketamine? MDMA?
-----
[quote]I support methadone maintenance completely
-----[/quote]
I do not. It encourages the continuance of the error of thinking that
results in drug abuse in the first place.
-----
Namaste,
Cliff

Eboka · Guest

hug_a_cop1@hotmail.com (Walkaway) wrote in message news:<8409fb07.0309232301.4a3785e2@posting.google.com>...
[quote]-----
eboka@aol.com (Eboka) wrote:
-----
Don>t believe everything you read.
-----
Check.
-----
Nothing new there.
-----
The fact that the drug appears to be more intrinsically toxic than
other drugs with similar effects is a matter of concern to me, and, I
would imagine, to many medical care providers.
-----
There have been two fatalities under medical care since 1989.
-----
The link you provide states three. Setting aside other links that
claim more, including Mr. Emery>s statement on six total fatalities,
how many LSD related fatalities have occurred in therapy, ever?
Ketamine? MDMA? See http://www.ibogaine.org/clin-perspectives.html or http://www.ibogaine.org/alkaloids.html
-----
I support methadone maintenance completely
-----
I do not. It encourages the continuance of the error of thinking that
results in drug abuse in the first place.
-----
Namaste,
Cliff
[/quote]
Cliff,

Thanks for your response. On the issue of fatalities, two of those
considered as ibogaine-related were under a doctor>s care. The other
fatalites did not include a medical doctor>s participation. One of
these medical-related ibogaine-related fatalities in 1989 I believe
involved prior cardiac disorders that were not considered issues at
the time and the second, while not conclusive may have involved the
use of other drugs not approved by the doctor.

None of the drugs you mention, lsd, mdma or ketamine or similar in
action to ibogaine (see http://www.ibogaine.org/alkaloids.html).
Ibogaine specifically blocks opiate withdrawal while concurrrently
interrupting drug seeking and craving behavior very specifically to
opioids and stimulants. I haven>t been counting and do not agree
with the diagnosis but, read the lay press and you will find reports
of mdma-related fatalities. Whether they could have not been so if
the subjects drank water nevertheless leaves them stipulated as
mdma-related fatalities. One can only imagine how many coffee-related
fatalities we might have if the intent were to find such data.

That you do not support methadone maintenance and I do is not an issue
I wish to dispute as it has been done so on numerous lists, bulletin
boards and print publications. Possibly, someone else will respond to
that issue as there are persons on both sides of the issue capable of
doing so.

In any case,

Namaste,
Howard

Magnus_Grey · Guest

[quote]Thanks for your response. On the issue of fatalities, two of those
considered as ibogaine-related were under a doctor>s care. The other
fatalites did not include a medical doctor>s participation. One of
these medical-related ibogaine-related fatalities in 1989 I believe
involved prior cardiac disorders that were not considered issues at
the time and the second, while not conclusive may have involved the
use of other drugs not approved by the doctor.

[/quote]
It sounds to me like you are trying to downplay the toxicity of
ibogane, although I can>t imagine why. I am willing to bet that there
are several more deaths than you mention in clinical settings, not to
mention scores of native ones. At least in the native Bwiti cults the
dried root is eaten over a period of several hours. Much like Native
American mescaline use, vomiting is part of the experience. This
serves to limit the participants from ingesting toxic levels the drug
as easily. Remember, ibogane exhibits strong stimulant effects prior
to its mind manifesting ones, and is traditionally most commonly used
only as a stimulant. It also has anticholonergic properties to boot.
The only thing this compound even seems to offer is the anti-opiate
action, but lets be honest; long terms recovery with ibogane treatment
is very poor, much like NA. Do you really believe that a strong mental
experience (and I see no evidence that safer "psychedelics" such as
LSD and psilocybin do not offer a subjectively equal experience),
combined with temporary opiate blocking properties is going to
magically "cure" addicts? I have talked to more than one ibogane user
who is still addicted. Also, I think it makes more sense to look at
"addiction" as a behavioral problem more than a directly substance
related, even physical dependency is not that large a problem to many
addicts, and the use of any drug in no way robs its user of free will.
The problem with ibogane treatment is that it is just another miracle
snake oil cure. Yes it is a powerful drug, yes it is toxic, nor it
will not magically change your life all at once and neither will
anything else. I do not believe that the concept of psychological
addiction has any real world or medical value, and I believe that all
lasting behavioral change needs to have corresponding long term
ideological change to be successful. Taking a drug once does not make
the pressures that cause addiction go away. I also suspect that many
of the mental properties of ibogane are anticholonergic in nature, as
one of the most common native Bwiti effects is communication with
their deceased ancestor>s, which seems equitable with other
anticholonergic drug reports. Also ibogane therapy centers charge
outrageous prices (1,500$-15,000$ per treatment) for their treatments
making me question the motives of at least a few responsible.

[quote]None of the drugs you mention, lsd, mdma or ketamine or similar in
action to ibogaine (see http://www.ibogaine.org/alkaloids.html).
[/quote]
You are incorrect, in regard to ketamine at the very least. This is
the tip of the iceburg.

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/225/1/206
"Ketamine showed some reversal effect on the depressant action of
morphine and caused contractions of the morphine-tolerant ileum,
suggesting that it may have opiate antagonist activity"

Another interesting comment was made by Karl Jansen (2001) concerning
the administration of small oral doses of ketamine being found to be
of use in chronic pain clinic for "greatly reducing" the development
of tolerance (via blockade of NMDA receptors).

However, many people are unaware that both enhanced effectiveness of
narcotic analgesics AND prevention or reversal of tolerance is readily
achievable through the oral use of up to 200-250 mg of Proglumide
[(DL)-4-Benzamido-N,N-dipropylglutaramic acid]. [See Ott 1999; Watkins
et al. 1984]

[quote]Ibogaine specifically blocks opiate withdrawal while concurrrently
interrupting drug seeking and craving behavior very specifically to
opioids and stimulants.
[/quote]
Personally, I think that addiction is more complicated than physical
cravings. You seem to be a drug aware individual with at least a
passing familiarity with psychotherapy. I am surprised you have not
reached similar conclusions. Lots of people take drugs and have
revelatory experiences, few change much over the long term as a
result.

[quote]I haven>t been counting and do not agree
with the diagnosis but, read the lay press and you will find reports
of mdma-related fatalities. Whether they could have not been so if
the subjects drank water nevertheless leaves them stipulated as
mdma-related fatalities.
[/quote]
I fail to see your point. MDMA is used in an order of magnitude to
make your comparison a little far fetched. Lets be honest, ibogane is
more toxic than MDMA and we both know it. Also, a raver dying at a
party does not equate to a patient dying while receiving medical
treatment. How many MDMA therapy (from when it was legal) deaths do
you know of? How about LSD therapy?

[quote]One can only imagine how many coffee-related
fatalities we might have if the intent were to find such data.
[/quote]
Are you claiming that ibogane is safe, or that caffine is very, very
toxic? I>m a bit confused otherwise what this has to do with anything
relevant. The same logical falicies apply to this comparison as to the
one above it.

[quote]That you do not support methadone maintenance and I do is not an issue
I wish to dispute as it has been done so on numerous lists, bulletin
boards and print publications. Possibly, someone else will respond to
that issue as there are persons on both sides of the issue capable of
doing so.
[/quote]
Lets be honest again, methadone is a conceptual failure. The creators
of the program failed to realize that the uses of these drugs have
real and compelling life problems that lead them to take opiates to
begin with. They did not suspect that all methadone does is substitute
one addiction for another, and methadone does not provide the same
defense mechanisms for those who still need them. Also again,
comparing methadone to ibogane is almost pointless because of the gap
in the number of users, except of course that both treatments are
fundamentally flawed ideologically. It seems like you need to study
the neuropharmacology of Ketamine and DXM before you advise the use of
this dangerous and expensive toxic
stimulant/anticholonergic/psychedelic.

-Bryan

Magnus_Grey · Guest

[quote]Thanks for your response. On the issue of fatalities, two of those
considered as ibogaine-related were under a doctor>s care. The other
fatalites did not include a medical doctor>s participation. One of
these medical-related ibogaine-related fatalities in 1989 I believe
involved prior cardiac disorders that were not considered issues at
the time and the second, while not conclusive may have involved the
use of other drugs not approved by the doctor.

[/quote]
It sounds to me like you are trying to downplay the toxicity of
ibogane, although I can>t imagine why. I am willing to bet that there
are several more deaths than you mention in clinical settings, not to
mention scores of native ones. At least in the native Bwiti cults the
dried root is eaten over a period of several hours. Much like Native
American mescaline use, vomiting is part of the experience. This
serves to limit the participants from ingesting toxic levels the drug
as easily. Remember, ibogane exhibits strong stimulant effects prior
to its mind manifesting ones, and is traditionally most commonly used
only as a stimulant. It also has anticholonergic properties to boot.
The only thing this compound even seems to offer is the anti-opiate
action, but lets be honest; long terms recovery with ibogane treatment
is very poor, much like NA. Do you really believe that a strong mental
experience (and I see no evidence that safer "psychedelics" such as
LSD and psilocybin do not offer a subjectively equal experience),
combined with temporary opiate blocking properties is going to
magically "cure" addicts? I have talked to more than one ibogane user
who is still addicted. Also, I think it makes more sense to look at
"addiction" as a behavioral problem more than a directly substance
related, even physical dependency is not that large a problem to many
addicts, and the use of any drug in no way robs its user of free will.
The problem with ibogane treatment is that it is just another miracle
snake oil cure. Yes it is a powerful drug, yes it is toxic, nor it
will not magically change your life all at once and neither will
anything else. I do not believe that the concept of psychological
addiction has any real world or medical value, and I believe that all
lasting behavioral change needs to have corresponding long term
ideological change to be successful. Taking a drug once does not make
the pressures that cause addiction go away. I also suspect that many
of the mental properties of ibogane are anticholonergic in nature, as
one of the most common native Bwiti effects is communication with
their deceased ancestor>s, which seems equitable with other
anticholonergic drug reports. Also ibogane therapy centers charge
outrageous prices (1,500$-15,000$ per treatment) for their treatments
making me question the motives of at least a few responsible.

[quote]None of the drugs you mention, lsd, mdma or ketamine or similar in
action to ibogaine (see http://www.ibogaine.org/alkaloids.html).
[/quote]
You are incorrect, in regard to ketamine at the very least. This is
the tip of the iceburg.

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/225/1/206
"Ketamine showed some reversal effect on the depressant action of
morphine and caused contractions of the morphine-tolerant ileum,
suggesting that it may have opiate antagonist activity"

Another interesting comment was made by Karl Jansen (2001) concerning
the administration of small oral doses of ketamine being found to be
of use in chronic pain clinic for "greatly reducing" the development
of tolerance (via blockade of NMDA receptors).

However, many people are unaware that both enhanced effectiveness of
narcotic analgesics AND prevention or reversal of tolerance is readily
achievable through the oral use of up to 200-250 mg of Proglumide
[(DL)-4-Benzamido-N,N-dipropylglutaramic acid]. [See Ott 1999; Watkins
et al. 1984]

[quote]Ibogaine specifically blocks opiate withdrawal while concurrrently
interrupting drug seeking and craving behavior very specifically to
opioids and stimulants.
[/quote]
Personally, I think that addiction is more complicated than physical
cravings. You seem to be a drug aware individual with at least a
passing familiarity with psychotherapy. I am surprised you have not
reached similar conclusions. Lots of people take drugs and have
revelatory experiences, few change much over the long term as a
result.

[quote]I haven>t been counting and do not agree
with the diagnosis but, read the lay press and you will find reports
of mdma-related fatalities. Whether they could have not been so if
the subjects drank water nevertheless leaves them stipulated as
mdma-related fatalities.
[/quote]
I fail to see your point. MDMA is used in an order of magnitude to
make your comparison a little far fetched. Lets be honest, ibogane is
more toxic than MDMA and we both know it. Also, a raver dying at a
party does not equate to a patient dying while receiving medical
treatment. How many MDMA therapy (from when it was legal) deaths do
you know of? How about LSD therapy?

[quote]One can only imagine how many coffee-related
fatalities we might have if the intent were to find such data.
[/quote]
Are you claiming that ibogane is safe, or that caffine is very, very
toxic? I>m a bit confused otherwise what this has to do with anything
relevant. The same logical falicies apply to this comparison as to the
one above it.

[quote]That you do not support methadone maintenance and I do is not an issue
I wish to dispute as it has been done so on numerous lists, bulletin
boards and print publications. Possibly, someone else will respond to
that issue as there are persons on both sides of the issue capable of
doing so.
[/quote]
Lets be honest again, methadone is a conceptual failure. The creators
of the program failed to realize that the uses of these drugs have
real and compelling life problems that lead them to take opiates to
begin with. They did not suspect that all methadone does is substitute
one addiction for another, and methadone does not provide the same
defense mechanisms for those who still need them. Also again,
comparing methadone to ibogane is almost pointless because of the gap
in the number of users, except of course that both treatments are
fundamentally flawed ideologically. It seems like you need to study
the neuropharmacology of Ketamine and DXM before you advise people
take this dangerous and expensive and toxic stimulant/anticholonergic.

-Bryan

Reach The Sky · Guest

"Magnus_Grey" <bryan_dickerson@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:b9a896a6.0309261721.78410b04@posting.google.com...
[quote]Thanks for your response. On the issue of fatalities, two of those
considered as ibogaine-related were under a doctor>s care. The other
fatalites did not include a medical doctor>s participation. One of
these medical-related ibogaine-related fatalities in 1989 I believe
involved prior cardiac disorders that were not considered issues at
the time and the second, while not conclusive may have involved the
use of other drugs not approved by the doctor.

It sounds to me like you are trying to downplay the toxicity of
ibogane, although I can>t imagine why. I am willing to bet that there
are several more deaths than you mention in clinical settings, not to
mention scores of native ones. At least in the native Bwiti cults the
dried root is eaten over a period of several hours. Much like Native
American mescaline use, vomiting is part of the experience. This
serves to limit the participants from ingesting toxic levels the drug
as easily. Remember, ibogane exhibits strong stimulant effects prior
to its mind manifesting ones, and is traditionally most commonly used
only as a stimulant. It also has anticholonergic properties to boot.
The only thing this compound even seems to offer is the anti-opiate
action, but lets be honest; long terms recovery with ibogane treatment
is very poor, much like NA. Do you really believe that a strong mental
experience (and I see no evidence that safer "psychedelics" such as
LSD and psilocybin do not offer a subjectively equal experience),
combined with temporary opiate blocking properties is going to
magically "cure" addicts? I have talked to more than one ibogane user
who is still addicted. Also, I think it makes more sense to look at
"addiction" as a behavioral problem more than a directly substance
related, even physical dependency is not that large a problem to many
addicts, and the use of any drug in no way robs its user of free will.
The problem with ibogane treatment is that it is just another miracle
snake oil cure. Yes it is a powerful drug, yes it is toxic, nor it
will not magically change your life all at once and neither will
anything else. I do not believe that the concept of psychological
addiction has any real world or medical value, and I believe that all
lasting behavioral change needs to have corresponding long term
ideological change to be successful. Taking a drug once does not make
the pressures that cause addiction go away. I also suspect that many
of the mental properties of ibogane are anticholonergic in nature, as
one of the most common native Bwiti effects is communication with
their deceased ancestor>s, which seems equitable with other
anticholonergic drug reports. Also ibogane therapy centers charge
outrageous prices (1,500$-15,000$ per treatment) for their treatments
making me question the motives of at least a few responsible.

None of the drugs you mention, lsd, mdma or ketamine or similar in
action to ibogaine (see http://www.ibogaine.org/alkaloids.html).

You are incorrect, in regard to ketamine at the very least. This is
the tip of the iceburg.

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/225/1/206
"Ketamine showed some reversal effect on the depressant action of
morphine and caused contractions of the morphine-tolerant ileum,
suggesting that it may have opiate antagonist activity"

Another interesting comment was made by Karl Jansen (2001) concerning
the administration of small oral doses of ketamine being found to be
of use in chronic pain clinic for "greatly reducing" the development
of tolerance (via blockade of NMDA receptors).

However, many people are unaware that both enhanced effectiveness of
narcotic analgesics AND prevention or reversal of tolerance is readily
achievable through the oral use of up to 200-250 mg of Proglumide
[(DL)-4-Benzamido-N,N-dipropylglutaramic acid]. [See Ott 1999; Watkins
et al. 1984]

Ibogaine specifically blocks opiate withdrawal while concurrrently
interrupting drug seeking and craving behavior very specifically to
opioids and stimulants.

Personally, I think that addiction is more complicated than physical
cravings. You seem to be a drug aware individual with at least a
passing familiarity with psychotherapy. I am surprised you have not
reached similar conclusions. Lots of people take drugs and have
revelatory experiences, few change much over the long term as a
result.

I haven>t been counting and do not agree
with the diagnosis but, read the lay press and you will find reports
of mdma-related fatalities. Whether they could have not been so if
the subjects drank water nevertheless leaves them stipulated as
mdma-related fatalities.

I fail to see your point. MDMA is used in an order of magnitude to
make your comparison a little far fetched. Lets be honest, ibogane is
more toxic than MDMA and we both know it. Also, a raver dying at a
party does not equate to a patient dying while receiving medical
treatment. How many MDMA therapy (from when it was legal) deaths do
you know of? How about LSD therapy?

One can only imagine how many coffee-related
fatalities we might have if the intent were to find such data.

Are you claiming that ibogane is safe, or that caffine is very, very
toxic? I>m a bit confused otherwise what this has to do with anything
relevant. The same logical falicies apply to this comparison as to the
one above it.

That you do not support methadone maintenance and I do is not an issue
I wish to dispute as it has been done so on numerous lists, bulletin
boards and print publications. Possibly, someone else will respond to
that issue as there are persons on both sides of the issue capable of
doing so.

Lets be honest again, methadone is a conceptual failure. The creators
of the program failed to realize that the uses of these drugs have
real and compelling life problems that lead them to take opiates to
begin with. They did not suspect that all methadone does is substitute
one addiction for another, and methadone does not provide the same
defense mechanisms for those who still need them. Also again,
comparing methadone to ibogane is almost pointless because of the gap
in the number of users, except of course that both treatments are
fundamentally flawed ideologically. It seems like you need to study
the neuropharmacology of Ketamine and DXM before you advise the use of
this dangerous and expensive toxic
stimulant/anticholonergic/psychedelic.

-Bryan
[/quote]
How in the hell can you glorify something as vile as DXM, and most of all,
claim it is safer than ibogaine ?

Magnus_Grey · Guest

[quote]How in the hell can you glorify something as vile as DXM,
[/quote]
Lol, I dont glorify or villify any of my drugs, thank you.

[quote]and most of all, claim it is safer than ibogaine ?
[/quote]
DXM is safer than Ibogane. DXM is a legal over the counter drug used
my hundreds of millions, with few deaths. Ibogane has been used by
several thousand people, with dozens of deaths. You do the math. How
about you give me some science? And why do you hate DXM so much,
ketamine works fine too btw.

-Bryan

rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszew · Guest

Magnus_Grey wrote:

[quote]How in the hell can you glorify something as vile as DXM,

Lol, I dont glorify or villify any of my drugs, thank you.

and most of all, claim it is safer than ibogaine ?

DXM is safer than Ibogane. DXM is a legal over the counter drug used
my hundreds of millions, with few deaths. Ibogane has been used by
several thousand people, with dozens of deaths. You do the math. How
about you give me some science? And why do you hate DXM so much,
ketamine works fine too btw.
[/quote]
Magnus has a point Reach The Sky. You may think DXM is "vile" in some
aesthetic sense. However, if you want to argue _safety_, DXM has a much
better record. Compared to ibogaine DXM is a much more popularly used
drug. In the US in the last few years I>d estimate the number of people
who used DXM recreationally is at least several hundred thousand.
Compared to the number of people who have used ibogaine in the last few
years this is huge. As far as drugs go, DXM isn>t particularly
dangerous.
--
http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.
Yet another murder by someone on Coricidin:
http://www.coricidin.org/kansas-coricidin-murder.htm

Walkaway · Guest

-----
"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@KILLSPAMMERSmochamail.com>
wrote:
-----
[quote]Magnus has a point Reach The Sky. You may think DXM is "vile" in
some aesthetic sense. However, if you want to argue _safety_, DXM
has a much better record. Compared to ibogaine DXM is a much more
popularly used drug.
-----[/quote]
I wonder why Erowid doesn>t have a "DEATHS" section for ibogaine like
they do for 2C-T-7. Maybe ibogaine has killed too many people to make
that practical? ;)
-----
Namaste,
Cliff

rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszew · Guest

Walkaway wrote:
[quote]-----
"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@KILLSPAMMERSmochamail.com
wrote:
-----
Magnus has a point Reach The Sky. You may think DXM is "vile" in
some aesthetic sense. However, if you want to argue _safety_, DXM
has a much better record. Compared to ibogaine DXM is a much more
popularly used drug.
-----
I wonder why Erowid doesn>t have a "DEATHS" section for ibogaine like
they do for 2C-T-7. Maybe ibogaine has killed too many people to make
that practical? ;)
[/quote]
Hmm...interesting? Perhaps Erowid has been sloppy and never
researched ibogaine deaths? Or perhaps Erowid is biased? Take a look at
this: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd.shtml. Where pray tell is
the deaths section? I just posted yet another LSD abuse death report in
this very NG 2 days ago. Finding behavioral toxicity abuse deaths
involving LSD is all kinds of easy. I>ve read more such LSD abuse death
accounts than all deaths from DXM, be they physical overdose or
behavioral toxicity deaths.
--
http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.
Yet another murder by someone on Coricidin:
http://www.coricidin.org/kansas-coricidin-murder.htm

Frederick Burroughs · Guest

"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" wrote:
[quote]
I>ve read more such LSD abuse death accounts than all deaths
from DXM, be they physical overdose or behavioral toxicity deaths.
[/quote]
Behavioral toxicity? Sounds like a variant of industrial disease.
Or, momentum deficiency syndrome in the case of car and plane crashes,
and leaps off of tall buildings.

--
The lock upon my garden gate>s a snail, that>s what it is.

-Donovan>s prescient response to homeland security.

glog · Guest

Once upon a timeless moment,
rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski <rfgdxm@KILLSPAMMERSmochamail.com> hallucinated:
[quote]Walkaway wrote:
-----
"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@KILLSPAMMERSmochamail.com
wrote:
-----
Magnus has a point Reach The Sky. You may think DXM is "vile" in
some aesthetic sense. However, if you want to argue _safety_, DXM
has a much better record. Compared to ibogaine DXM is a much more
popularly used drug.
-----
I wonder why Erowid doesn>t have a "DEATHS" section for ibogaine like
they do for 2C-T-7. Maybe ibogaine has killed too many people to make
that practical? ;)

Hmm...interesting? Perhaps Erowid has been sloppy and never
researched ibogaine deaths? Or perhaps Erowid is biased? Take a look at
this: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd.shtml. Where pray tell is
the deaths section? I just posted yet another LSD abuse death report in
this very NG 2 days ago. Finding behavioral toxicity abuse deaths
involving LSD is all kinds of easy. I>ve read more such LSD abuse death
accounts than all deaths from DXM, be they physical overdose or
behavioral toxicity deaths.
[/quote]
I suspect 2C-T-7 deaths were emphasised because of 2C-T-7>s popularity
on the research chemical scene at the time. Those deaths stood out at
the time compared to other RC>s. LSD 'behavioral toxicity' doesn>t
stand out at all next to the tens of thousands of drunk driving deaths
that happen every year, not to mention hundreds DAWN mentions of DXM.


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