Science and Technology news... :: View topic - Ten Years of Therapy in One Night (Ibogaine)

ShrikeBack · Guest

"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@KILLSPAMMERSmochamail.com> wrote in message news:<3f7ae0c9$0$10002$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.net>...
[quote]Frederick Burroughs wrote:
"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" wrote:

This is *very* common when it comes to drug death. For an obvious
example, most alcohol deaths fall into the behavioral toxicity
category.

I>ve heard of the category, "motor vehicle *accident* involving
alcohol." Also, "falling asleep behind the wheel." Does this involve
a toxicity from sleep deprivation? Or, "teenage suicide," obviously a
toxic reaction from belonging to a selective age group.

This use of "behavioral toxicity" always involves substance use.
Drunk driving is indeed a subset of behavioral toxicity. One of the
things that is required for it to be called a behavioral toxicity death
is that the drug influence the behavior AND the behavior is a factor in
the death. There likely were some drunk people in the World Trade Center
who died when the jets were flown into it. However, these aren>t alcohol
behavioral toxicity deaths, since their drinking had nothing to do with
those jets.
[/quote]
The only way to establish whether a substance had any influence on
a death is to examine the statistics. If there is no statistical
difference between the number of deaths under the influence, and
deaths in the general population, there is certainly no causal
relationship. This is why I object to your cherry picked examples
of deaths and murders; they establish nothing. They are an appeal
to superstitious -- post hoc, ergo propter hoc -- thinking. Even
a correlation doesn>t establish causality, of course, but it is
an indicator. Your examples do not even serve as indicators. It
brings up the question of *your* biases.

Walkaway · Guest

-----
"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@KILLSPAMMERSmochamail.com>
wrote:
-----
[quote]glog wrote
-----
I suspect 2C-T-7 deaths were emphasised because of 2C-T-7>s
popularity on the research chemical scene at the time.
-----[/quote]
Fair enough. However, why is there no mention of the alcohol +
5-MeO-DiPT fatality on their 5-MeO-DiPT page?
-----
[quote]Umm...there were all of 2 deaths involving 2C-T-7.
-----[/quote]
3.
-----
[quote]Finding DXM in a corpse ain>t exactly remarkable considering
that many millions of Americans take DXM yearly at
non-recreational doses as recommended in cold medicines.
-----[/quote]
True.
-----
Namaste,
Cliff

Cliff Stabbert · Guest

On 1 Oct 2003 11:47:16 -0700, bryan_dickerson@hotmail.com (Magnus_Grey)
wrote:

[quote]I agree that psychological dependence is meaninless. Behavioral
toxicity is not used in the same sense. If a man jumps out the window
on LSD, the LSD has resulted in his death. However, the LSD itself did
not cause his body to die, the fall did.
[/quote]
I disagree.

The fall did not cause his body to die. The sudden stop at the end did.

--
Cliff

Walkaway · Guest

-----
eboka@aol.com (Eboka) wrote:
-----
[quote]Thanks for your response.
-----[/quote]
Thanks for your reply. :)
-----
[quote]On the issue of fatalities, two of those considered as
ibogaine-related were under a doctor>s care. The other
fatalites did not include a medical doctor>s participation.
-----[/quote]
Still, that is a troublingly high incidence of toxicity in a very
limited number of users. How many people have used ibogaine for
heroin-dependence treatment? At most, a few thousand?
-----
In addition, in considering the intrinsic toxicity of the drug, we
have to consider the number of deaths in the native Bwiti cults.
-----
[quote]One of these medical-related ibogaine-related fatalities in 1989
I believe involved prior cardiac disorders that were not
considered issues at the time
-----[/quote]
Why were cardiac disorders not considered contraindications when
giving out powerful stimulant drugs?
-----
[quote]and the second, while not conclusive may have involved the
use of other drugs not approved by the doctor.
-----[/quote]
What>s the evidence for that?
-----
[quote]None of the drugs you mention, lsd, mdma or ketamine or
similar in action to ibogaine
(see http://www.ibogaine.org/alkaloids.html)
-----[/quote]
Ketamine interrupts physiological dependence on opiates, and shows
promising results in Ketamine Psychedelic Therapy (KPT) in reducing
the desire for opiates or alcohol. Consider:
-----
"Despite giving rise to a rapid tolerance itself, ketamine can block
the development of tolerance to, and physical dependence upon, many
other drugs including heroin, alcohol, barbituates, and bezodiazepenes
(diazepam, tempazepam, etc.). On of the means by which it achieves
this remarkable feat involves blocking learning at N-P receptors. The
physical brain may then not remember that it has met heroin and some
other drugs before. Ketamine can also suppress withdrawal (cold
turkey) in heroin addicts. Oral ketamine given with morphine prevents
the development of moprhine tolerance, so this combination is
sometimes used in chronic pain clinics."
-----
(Jansen, *Ketamine*, p. 200)
-----
Chapter 10 of the same work should be consulted for an extensive
discussion of KPT.
-----
I also previously mentioned DXM in this thread as sharing specific
effects with ibogaine on addictive pathways.
-----
[quote]Ibogaine specifically blocks opiate withdrawal while concurrrently
interrupting drug seeking and craving behavior very specifically to
opioids and stimulants.
-----[/quote]
There has been work that indicates similar potential for DXM, and I>ve
seen friends of mine who successfully used DXM for heroin withdrawal -
it suppressed both the physiological dependence and the psychological
attachment to the drug. One confessed the morning after taking it
that he>d been thinking of going adn buying a bag of heroin that day
but saw no point in doing so now, as he couldn>t fathom why he wasted
his time and his money so much. I still don>t think DXM will get
approved as a treatment for heroin addiction, largely because drugs
that make you "see shit" are not likely to be accepted in our present
culture.
-----
[quote]I haven>t been counting and do not agree with the diagnosis but,
read the lay press and you will find reports of mdma-related
fatalities.
-----[/quote]
Not in therapy. And, I agree - MDMA has some troubling toxicity
issues.
-----
[quote]One can only imagine how many coffee-related fatalities we might
have if the intent were to find such data.
-----[/quote]
Caffeine overdose can quite definitely kill. The difference is that
no one is representing caffeine overdose as having specific
therapeutic properties.
-----
[quote]That you do not support methadone maintenance and I do is not an issue
I wish to dispute
-----[/quote]
Fair enough. I simply think that addiction is largely an error in
thinking.
-----
Namaste,
Cliff

Walkaway · Guest

All excellent suggestions. Good work.
---
Namaste,
Cliff

Peter H. Proctor · Guest

On 1 Oct 2003 12:39:58 -0700, hewpiedawg@hotmail.com (ShrikeBack)
wrote:

[quote]The only way to establish whether a substance had any influence on
a death is to examine the statistics. If there is no statistical
difference between the number of deaths under the influence, and
deaths in the general population, there is certainly no causal
relationship.
[/quote]
It is a little more complicated than this, especially for
things that rarely cause death. This is particularly so if death is
due to (say) some idiosyncratic reaction (ecstasy?) or some special
mode of administration ( i.v. valium or crack cocaine).

The forensic toxicologist must examine the circumstances
surrounding the event. This includes as much as possible ruling out
other causes of death, whether the death fits what is known about
the agent, etc...

The goal is to arrive at a "reasonable medical probability",
roughly defined as more likely than not. And yes, the mere
presence of a drug may just be a covariable, though the pathologist
may be very tempted to assign it as a cause of death.

Dr P

Derek Snider · Guest

"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@KILLSPAMMERSmochamail.com> wrote in message news:<3f797edd$0$9996$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.net>...
[quote]Walkaway wrote:

"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@KILLSPAMMERSmochamail.com
wrote:

Magnus has a point Reach The Sky. You may think DXM is "vile" in
some aesthetic sense. However, if you want to argue _safety_, DXM
has a much better record. Compared to ibogaine DXM is a much more
popularly used drug.

I wonder why Erowid doesn>t have a "DEATHS" section for ibogaine like
they do for 2C-T-7. Maybe ibogaine has killed too many people to make
that practical? ;)

Hmm...interesting? Perhaps Erowid has been sloppy and never
researched ibogaine deaths? Or perhaps Erowid is biased? Take a look at
this: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd.shtml. Where pray tell is
the deaths section? I just posted yet another LSD abuse death report in
this very NG 2 days ago. Finding behavioral toxicity abuse deaths
involving LSD is all kinds of easy. I>ve read more such LSD abuse death
accounts than all deaths from DXM, be they physical overdose or
behavioral toxicity deaths.
[/quote]
If you>re going to fuss about exceedingly rare and random deaths due
to stupidity, Erowid would have to have a "deaths" section for EVERY
drug on their site, including chocolate... as I>m certain a bunch
people have died from it due to allergies, morbid binging, choking,
and indirectly due to diabetes, etc.

rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszew · Guest

glog wrote:
[quote]Once upon a timeless moment,
rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski <rfgdxm@KILLSPAMMERSmochamail.com
hallucinated:

And, I>ve yet to be able to confirm a DAWN mention of DXM that
involved recreational use.

How many of the hundreds of them have you confirmed didn>t??
[/quote]
No specific detail are available from this source, which is good
reason to seriously doubt it.
--
http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.
Yet another murder by someone on Coricidin:
http://www.coricidin.org/kansas-coricidin-murder.htm

rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszew · Guest

Walkaway wrote:
[quote]-----
"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@KILLSPAMMERSmochamail.com
wrote:

Umm...there were all of 2 deaths involving 2C-T-7.
-----
3.
[/quote]
True. I forgot the one that included MDMA abuse.

[quote]Finding DXM in a corpse ain>t exactly remarkable considering
that many millions of Americans take DXM yearly at
non-recreational doses as recommended in cold medicines.
-----
True.
[/quote]
It>s only remarkable if the amount of DXM found is way higher than
recommended doses.
--
http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.
Yet another murder by someone on Coricidin:
http://www.coricidin.org/kansas-coricidin-murder.htm

rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszew · Guest

Magnus_Grey wrote:

[quote]Then you are an idiot. Consider the example of DanceSafe I
mentioned. DanceSafe focuses on behavioral toxicity issues. Also, I
never stated that this term doesn>t reveal more about the user than
the substance.

I agree that psychological dependence is meaninless. Behavioral
toxicity is not used in the same sense. If a man jumps out the window
on LSD, the LSD has resulted in his death. However, the LSD itself did
not cause his body to die, the fall did. However, since the LSD was a
large factor in him falling, and he likely would not have had he not
taken it, we can say that LSD played a large role in his death, but
did not dirrectly cause it. It would be misleading to only lable such
a death "LSD related" without mentioning that his behavior was the
primary cause of his death. To clarify: LSD does not cause behavioral
toxicity, however, it may play a role in generating it for some
people. What category would you put "psychotic breaks" from large drug
ammounts into that lead to death? Suicide? Overdose? Both of those
terms are in fact less clear in such cases. Also, your venom serves no
useful purpose here, at least RFG is trying to help people.

-Bryan

P.S. you should pop in the dextroverse more often RFG, I know we have
diferent styles, but I value your imput.
[/quote]
I may do so. I am a propagandist, and the Dextroverse is fertile
ground for that.
--
http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.
Yet another murder by someone on Coricidin:
http://www.coricidin.org/kansas-coricidin-murder.htm

rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszew · Guest

Derek Snider wrote:
[quote]"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@KILLSPAMMERSmochamail.com
wrote in message
news:<3f797edd$0$9996$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.net>...

Hmm...interesting? Perhaps Erowid has been sloppy and never
researched ibogaine deaths? Or perhaps Erowid is biased? Take a look
at this: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd.shtml. Where pray
tell is the deaths section? I just posted yet another LSD abuse
death report in this very NG 2 days ago. Finding behavioral toxicity
abuse deaths involving LSD is all kinds of easy. I>ve read more such
LSD abuse death accounts than all deaths from DXM, be they physical
overdose or behavioral toxicity deaths.

If you>re going to fuss about exceedingly rare and random deaths due
to stupidity, Erowid would have to have a "deaths" section for EVERY
drug on their site, including chocolate... as I>m certain a bunch
people have died from it due to allergies, morbid binging, choking,
and indirectly due to diabetes, etc.
[/quote]
If Erowid is going to have anything about drugs of abuse on their
site, then most definitely they should list the deaths due to stupidity.
As if LSD abusers tend to be rocket scientists? Plenty of stupid people
use dope.
--
http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.
Yet another murder by someone on Coricidin:
http://www.coricidin.org/kansas-coricidin-murder.htm

rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszew · Guest

Walkaway wrote:
[quote]All excellent suggestions. Good work.
[/quote]
Know where these ibogaine deaths are documented? It might be a good
idea to write a summary of these deaths and submit it to Erowid. One
problem is that Erowid may have 20 things they would like to add to the
site, and time to do the research for only 4 of them.
--
http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.
Yet another murder by someone on Coricidin:
http://www.coricidin.org/kansas-coricidin-murder.htm

!social · Guest

bryan_dickerson@hotmail.com (Magnus_Grey) wrote in message news:<b9a896a6.0310011047.145b6848@posting.google.com>...
[quote]Oh, please. The very idea of "behavioral toxicity" is just as
absurd
as the notion of "psychological dependence". These terms belong in the
trash heap, banned from public discourse, as they serve no other
purpose than to prevent the public from rationally understanding the
effects of drugs. Neither term has any real scientific merit, and both
ultimately reveal more about the user than the substance which suffers
the blame. Anyone who uses either term with a straight face is
employing himself as an agent of prohibition and deserves nothing more
than ridicule.

I sometimes wonder what the f ck you are even doing here.

Then you are an idiot. Consider the example of DanceSafe I mentioned.
DanceSafe focuses on behavioral toxicity issues. Also, I never stated
that this term doesn>t reveal more about the user than the substance.

I agree that psychological dependence is meaninless. Behavioral
toxicity is not used in the same sense. If a man jumps out the window
on LSD, the LSD has resulted in his death. However, the LSD itself did
not cause his body to die, the fall did. However, since the LSD was a
large factor in him falling, and he likely would not have had he not
taken it, we can say that LSD played a large role in his death, but
did not dirrectly cause it. It would be misleading to only lable such
a death "LSD related" without mentioning that his behavior was the
primary cause of his death. To clarify: LSD does not cause behavioral
toxicity, however, it may play a role in generating it for some
people. What category would you put "psychotic breaks" from large drug
ammounts into that lead to death? Suicide? Overdose? Both of those
terms are in fact less clear in such cases. Also, your venom serves no
useful purpose here, at least RFG is trying to help people.

-Bryan

P.S. you should pop in the dextroverse more often RFG, I know we have
diferent styles, but I value your imput.
[/quote]
I finally understand:

A man is reading a book while driving an automobile speeding down the
expressway. He crashes and dies a fiery death. We can say the book
played a large role in his death, but did not directly cause it. The
impact of the crash caused it. However, the book did cause behavioral
toxicity. Therefore books can be lethal.

Why don>t we just call it "abuse" or "wreckless stupidity" or
"terminal ignorance"? Why can>t we just admit that LSD, books, and
everything else can aid one in his/her demise and leave it at that?
Why is it necessary to create some pseudo-scientific diagnosis and
apply it to the instrument instead of the individual?

Please compare and contrast behavioral toxicity with wreckless
stupidity. Isn>t the former just a gee-golly-scientific way of saying
the latter? It>s ridiculous. It>s like saying fat people are
horizontally-challenged.

The real danger is that the legions of imbeciles otherwise known as
the public will mistake the phrase for being an actual quality of the
substance. Do we really want a term like this to be in wide usage?

rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszew · Guest

!social wrote:

[quote]The real danger is that the legions of imbeciles otherwise known as
the public will mistake the phrase for being an actual quality of the
substance. Do we really want a term like this to be in wide usage?
[/quote]
Some substances make doing really stupid things on them more than
others. Thus this is partially a property of the substance.
--
http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.
Yet another murder by someone on Coricidin:
http://www.coricidin.org/kansas-coricidin-murder.htm

Walkaway · Guest

-----
derek@idirect.com (Derek Snider) wrote:
-----
[quote]If you>re going to fuss about exceedingly rare and random
deaths due to stupidity
-----[/quote]
So you>re calling the leaders of the native Bwiti cults stupid?
-----
[quote]Erowid would have to have a "deaths" section for EVERY drug on
their site, including chocolate... as I>m certain a bunch
people have died from it due to allergies
-----[/quote]
Someone dying due to an unknown allergy for chocolate is not the
result of their own stupidity. I had a severe allergic reaction the
first time I ate chocolate, when I was very young.
-----
[quote]morbid binging, choking, and indirectly due to diabetes, etc.
-----[/quote]
Ibogaine deaths aren>t indirect results of ibogaine ingestion, tho -
they>re related to the mechanism of action for the drug. And, I don>t
think anyone has died on an ibogaine binge. We>re talking about
single doses.
-----
Namaste,
Cliff


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