Science and Technology news... :: View topic - Ten Years of Therapy in One Night (Ibogaine)

glog · Guest

Once upon a timeless moment,
Magnus_Grey <bryan_dickerson@hotmail.com> hallucinated:

[quote]Remember, ibogane exhibits strong stimulant effects prior to its
mind manifesting ones, and is traditionally most commonly used only
as a stimulant. It also has anticholonergic properties to boot. The
only thing this compound even seems to offer is the anti-opiate
action, but lets be honest; long terms recovery with ibogane
treatment is very poor, much like NA. Do you really believe that a
strong mental experience (and I see no evidence that safer
"psychedelics" such as LSD and psilocybin do not offer a
subjectively equal experience
[/quote]
So you see no evidence LSD and psilocybin do not offer a subjectively
equal experience to ibogane. But here you write:

[quote]I also suspect that many
of the mental properties of ibogane are anticholonergic in nature, as
one of the most common native Bwiti effects is communication with
their deceased ancestor>s, which seems equitable with other
anticholonergic drug reports.
[/quote]
Isn>t that evidence of a subjectively different experience from LSD
and psilocybin then?? Or do you think LSD and psilocybin are
anticholinergics too??

Do you have any pharmocological studies to suggest ibogane is
anticholinergic too or are you just going by these subjective
reports??

--------

[quote]Also, I think it makes more sense to look at
"addiction" as a behavioral problem more than a directly substance
related, even physical dependency is not that large a problem to many
addicts, and the use of any drug in no way robs its user of free will.
[/quote]
I would tend to agree. Addiction is a primarily a behavioral problem.

[quote]I do not believe that the concept of psychological
addiction has any real world or medical value
[/quote]
So addiction is a behavioral problem but its not psychological??

[quote]I believe that all
lasting behavioral change needs to have corresponding long term
ideological change to be successful.
[/quote]
I agree. Can>t powerful psychedelics be they ibogaine, ketamine or LSD,
help bring on ideological changes??

-------

[quote]None of the drugs you mention, lsd, mdma or ketamine or similar in
action to ibogaine (see http://www.ibogaine.org/alkaloids.html).

You are incorrect, in regard to ketamine at the very least. This is
the tip of the iceburg.

http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/225/1/206
"Ketamine showed some reversal effect on the depressant action of
morphine and caused contractions of the morphine-tolerant ileum,
suggesting that it may have opiate antagonist activity"
[/quote]
Similary observerd effects does not mean similar pharmocological
action. The only way we can determine if any of these drugs can treat
addiction problems is to do the research.

liteage1 · Guest

glog wrote:
[quote]Once upon a timeless moment,
rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski <rfgdxm@KILLSPAMMERSmochamail.com
hallucinated:
Walkaway wrote:
-----
"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@KILLSPAMMERSmochamail.com
wrote:
-----
Magnus has a point Reach The Sky. You may think DXM is "vile" in
some aesthetic sense. However, if you want to argue _safety_, DXM
has a much better record. Compared to ibogaine DXM is a much more
popularly used drug.
-----
I wonder why Erowid doesn>t have a "DEATHS" section for ibogaine
like they do for 2C-T-7. Maybe ibogaine has killed too many people
to make that practical? ;)

Hmm...interesting? Perhaps Erowid has been sloppy and never
researched ibogaine deaths? Or perhaps Erowid is biased? Take a look
at this: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd.shtml. Where pray
tell is the deaths section? I just posted yet another LSD abuse
death report in this very NG 2 days ago. Finding behavioral toxicity
abuse deaths involving LSD is all kinds of easy. I>ve read more such
LSD abuse death accounts than all deaths from DXM, be they physical
overdose or behavioral toxicity deaths.

I suspect 2C-T-7 deaths were emphasised because of 2C-T-7>s popularity
on the research chemical scene at the time. Those deaths stood out at
the time compared to other RC>s. LSD 'behavioral toxicity' doesn>t
stand out at all next to the tens of thousands of drunk driving deaths
that happen every year, not to mention hundreds DAWN mentions of DXM.
[/quote]
Drunk Driving Deaths, Hmm
Goes to show how this country and others rule illogically.
how can people live with such a confusing message drugs are drugs, alcohol
is TOO
and kills many times over, then do illegal drugs.
legal drugs kill more people then illegal drugs do.
what>s up with this world. answer>>>>>>>>>>>>> GREED

I know if I where a DEA employee I sure would not want to make illegal drugs
legal.
that>s foreshore. I>d loss my job
and the billions spent on this cash cow.
for who? not you and I!

--
_A_
< *U* >
V

PeoplesMind · Guest

On 30 Sep 2003 05:17:30 -0700, hug_a_cop1@hotmail.com (Walkaway)
wrote:

[quote]-----
I wonder why Erowid doesn>t have a "DEATHS" section for ibogaine like
they do for 2C-T-7. Maybe ibogaine has killed too many people to make
that practical? ;)
-----
Namaste,
Cliff
[/quote]
lol Cliff

I think that that would be a great idea! They could start out by
stating (the ovbious) :

Iboga is sharply associated with death. In many of the societies in
Africa, where iboga is used, it is closely associated with death. So
much so, in fact, that the Bwiti (sp?) use the iboga plant to
communicate with the dead. It is not uncommon to have members of the
Bwiti to die during the initation ceremony (where they ingest iboga).

Moreso, many of the advocates (though not all ;) ) of ibogaine clearly
state that there is a clear and present danger to ingesting this drug.

Perhaps go on to show a few cases of iboga toxicity...

peace,
Nitin
---
peace, Nitin.
http://www.nitx.com
http://www.nitnetworks.com
http://www.dextroverse.org
http://www.amazon.com/o/registry/2WRJZSW089SR4

!social · Guest

"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@KILLSPAMMERSmochamail.com> wrote in message news:<3f797edd$0$9996$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.net>...
[quote]Walkaway wrote:
-----
"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@KILLSPAMMERSmochamail.com
wrote:
-----
Magnus has a point Reach The Sky. You may think DXM is "vile" in
some aesthetic sense. However, if you want to argue _safety_, DXM
has a much better record. Compared to ibogaine DXM is a much more
popularly used drug.
-----
I wonder why Erowid doesn>t have a "DEATHS" section for ibogaine like
they do for 2C-T-7. Maybe ibogaine has killed too many people to make
that practical? ;)

Hmm...interesting? Perhaps Erowid has been sloppy and never
researched ibogaine deaths? Or perhaps Erowid is biased? Take a look at
this: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd.shtml. Where pray tell is
the deaths section? I just posted yet another LSD abuse death report in
this very NG 2 days ago. Finding behavioral toxicity abuse deaths
involving LSD is all kinds of easy. I>ve read more such LSD abuse death
accounts than all deaths from DXM, be they physical overdose or
behavioral toxicity deaths.
[/quote]
LOL -- "behavioral toxicity" !

Could road rage be attributed to the "behaviorally-toxic" effects of
driving automobiles?

Magnus_Grey · Guest

Erowid seems almost inactive for the last month or two. They have not
even fixed severe formating issues in their trip report text.

-Bryan

rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszew · Guest

Frederick Burroughs wrote:
[quote]"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" wrote:

I>ve read more such LSD abuse death accounts than all deaths
from DXM, be they physical overdose or behavioral toxicity deaths.

Behavioral toxicity? Sounds like a variant of industrial disease.
Or, momentum deficiency syndrome in the case of car and plane crashes,
and leaps off of tall buildings.
[/quote]
This is *very* common when it comes to drug death. For an obvious
example, most alcohol deaths fall into the behavioral toxicity category.
--
http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.
Yet another murder by someone on Coricidin:
http://www.coricidin.org/kansas-coricidin-murder.htm

rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszew · Guest

glog wrote:
[quote]Once upon a timeless moment,
rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski <rfgdxm@KILLSPAMMERSmochamail.com
hallucinated:

Hmm...interesting? Perhaps Erowid has been sloppy and never
researched ibogaine deaths? Or perhaps Erowid is biased? Take a look
at this: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd.shtml. Where pray
tell is the deaths section? I just posted yet another LSD abuse
death report in this very NG 2 days ago. Finding behavioral toxicity
abuse deaths involving LSD is all kinds of easy. I>ve read more such
LSD abuse death accounts than all deaths from DXM, be they physical
overdose or behavioral toxicity deaths.

I suspect 2C-T-7 deaths were emphasised because of 2C-T-7>s popularity
on the research chemical scene at the time. Those deaths stood out at
the time compared to other RC>s. LSD 'behavioral toxicity' doesn>t
stand out at all next to the tens of thousands of drunk driving deaths
that happen every year, not to mention hundreds DAWN mentions of DXM.
[/quote]
Umm...there were all of 2 deaths involving 2C-T-7. This isn>t all that
significant compared to other RCs without knowing exactly how much each
is used. And, I>ve yet to be able to confirm a DAWN mention of DXM that
involved recreational use. Finding DXM in a corpse ain>t exactly
remarkable considering that many millions of Americans take DXM yearly
at non-recreational doses as recommended in cold medicines. A corpse
with DXM in it is remarkable only if the amount of DXM indicates they
were drinking bottles of the stuff.
--
http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.
Yet another murder by someone on Coricidin:
http://www.coricidin.org/kansas-coricidin-murder.htm

rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszew · Guest

!social wrote:
[quote]"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@KILLSPAMMERSmochamail.com
wrote in message
news:<3f797edd$0$9996$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.net>...

Hmm...interesting? Perhaps Erowid has been sloppy and never
researched ibogaine deaths? Or perhaps Erowid is biased? Take a look
at this: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd.shtml. Where pray
tell is the deaths section? I just posted yet another LSD abuse
death report in this very NG 2 days ago. Finding behavioral toxicity
abuse deaths involving LSD is all kinds of easy. I>ve read more such
LSD abuse death accounts than all deaths from DXM, be they physical
overdose or behavioral toxicity deaths.

LOL -- "behavioral toxicity" !

Could road rage be attributed to the "behaviorally-toxic" effects of
driving automobiles?
[/quote]
Try studying drug deaths across the board. Behavioral toxicity is a
*major* issue. Take a look at DanceSafe. The organization mainly deals
with behavioral toxicity involving Ecstasy and other club drugs.
--
http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.
Yet another murder by someone on Coricidin:
http://www.coricidin.org/kansas-coricidin-murder.htm

Hogarth · Guest

In article <o79knvckgha74oe2lc7p9qk1184rrfd003@4ax.com>,
PeoplesMind <nitin@nitx.kom> wrote:

[quote]On 30 Sep 2003 05:17:30 -0700, hug_a_cop1@hotmail.com (Walkaway)
wrote:

-----
I wonder why Erowid doesn>t have a "DEATHS" section for ibogaine like
they do for 2C-T-7. Maybe ibogaine has killed too many people to make
that practical? ;)
-----
Namaste,
Cliff

lol Cliff

I think that that would be a great idea! They could start out by
stating (the ovbious) :

Iboga is sharply associated with death. In many of the societies in
Africa, where iboga is used, it is closely associated with death. So
much so, in fact, that the Bwiti (sp?) use the iboga plant to
communicate with the dead. It is not uncommon to have members of the
Bwiti to die during the initation ceremony (where they ingest iboga).

Moreso, many of the advocates (though not all ;) ) of ibogaine clearly
state that there is a clear and present danger to ingesting this drug.

[/quote]
Okay, I>ll go out on a limb here, and say that my (too lazy to go back
and look it up) ***recollection*** is that the original post mentioned
that the iboga experience is very much a "death and rebirth" type of
"rite of passage."

So maybe the "rebirth" part doesn>t always happen. Or (more accurately)
it sometimes happens in a different sort of time/space framework than
those of us who still are caught up in four dimensions would like to
expect.

So what?

(Why do I keep reading this sadly-degenerated thread?)

Along the same lines, I once had an LSD experience - would have been in
the spring of 1969, I think. (Pretty sure, it was a cast party for
"Marat/Sade" w/ yrs trly as Jacques Roux.) I had goddess-knows-how-much
LSD and was lying on the floor w/ eyes closed, and time was
d-i-l-a-t-i-n-g and the space between my heartbeats kept getting
l-o-n-g-e-r and the the space between the beats in the music kept
getting e-x-p-a-n-d-i-n-g and it sort of crossed my mind that - hey -
maybe I was either stopping time or dying and - hey - that was kind of
cool, I guess...

....and then I found that I was getting sort of annoyed that here I here
I was on the verge of an incredible experience, either 1) stopping time
or 2) dying -- or 3) all of the above -- and people kept bumping into me
or trying to talk to me or whatever and I had to put this stoppage of
time/death experience on the back burner and get back into the party.

OTOH, the party was pretty cool, too - learned a lot about myself and
various sorts of pre-programmed preconceptions about sexuality, etc., so
it wasn>t all a loss. Plus, it was the first time in my life I ever ate
guacamole!!!

(And yes, the pre-programmed notions of sexuality and the never having
tasted guacamole were inextricably linked in my midwestern upbringing!)

Hogarth

(34 years later and still waiting to die. Oh, well...)

!social · Guest

"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@KILLSPAMMERSmochamail.com> wrote in message news:<3f7a42b8$0$9996$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.net>...
[quote]!social wrote:
"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@KILLSPAMMERSmochamail.com
wrote in message
news:<3f797edd$0$9996$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.net>...

Hmm...interesting? Perhaps Erowid has been sloppy and never
researched ibogaine deaths? Or perhaps Erowid is biased? Take a look
at this: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd.shtml. Where pray
tell is the deaths section? I just posted yet another LSD abuse
death report in this very NG 2 days ago. Finding behavioral toxicity
abuse deaths involving LSD is all kinds of easy. I>ve read more such
LSD abuse death accounts than all deaths from DXM, be they physical
overdose or behavioral toxicity deaths.

LOL -- "behavioral toxicity" !

Could road rage be attributed to the "behaviorally-toxic" effects of
driving automobiles?

Try studying drug deaths across the board. Behavioral toxicity is a
*major* issue. Take a look at DanceSafe. The organization mainly deals
with behavioral toxicity involving Ecstasy and other club drugs.
[/quote]
Oh, please. The very idea of "behavioral toxicity" is just as absurd
as the notion of "psychological dependence". These terms belong in the
trash heap, banned from public discourse, as they serve no other
purpose than to prevent the public from rationally understanding the
effects of drugs. Neither term has any real scientific merit, and both
ultimately reveal more about the user than the substance which suffers
the blame. Anyone who uses either term with a straight face is
employing himself as an agent of prohibition and deserves nothing more
than ridicule.

I sometimes wonder what the f ck you are even doing here.

Frederick Burroughs · Guest

"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" wrote:
[quote]
Frederick Burroughs wrote:

Behavioral toxicity? Sounds like a variant of industrial disease.
Or, momentum deficiency syndrome in the case of car and plane crashes,
and leaps off of tall buildings.

This is *very* common when it comes to drug death. For an obvious
example, most alcohol deaths fall into the behavioral toxicity category.
[/quote]
I>ve heard of the category, "motor vehicle *accident* involving
alcohol." Also, "falling asleep behind the wheel." Does this involve
a toxicity from sleep deprivation? Or, "teenage suicide," obviously a
toxic reaction from belonging to a selective age group.

--
The lock upon my garden gate>s a snail, that>s what it is.

-Donovan>s prescient response to homeland security.

rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszew · Guest

Frederick Burroughs wrote:
[quote]"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" wrote:

This is *very* common when it comes to drug death. For an obvious
example, most alcohol deaths fall into the behavioral toxicity
category.

I>ve heard of the category, "motor vehicle *accident* involving
alcohol." Also, "falling asleep behind the wheel." Does this involve
a toxicity from sleep deprivation? Or, "teenage suicide," obviously a
toxic reaction from belonging to a selective age group.
[/quote]
This use of "behavioral toxicity" always involves substance use.
Drunk driving is indeed a subset of behavioral toxicity. One of the
things that is required for it to be called a behavioral toxicity death
is that the drug influence the behavior AND the behavior is a factor in
the death. There likely were some drunk people in the World Trade Center
who died when the jets were flown into it. However, these aren>t alcohol
behavioral toxicity deaths, since their drinking had nothing to do with
those jets.
--
http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.
Yet another murder by someone on Coricidin:
http://www.coricidin.org/kansas-coricidin-murder.htm

rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszew · Guest

!social wrote:
[quote]"rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski" <rfgdxm@KILLSPAMMERSmochamail.com
wrote in message
news:<3f7a42b8$0$9996$892e7fe2@authen.puce.readfreenews.net>...

Try studying drug deaths across the board. Behavioral toxicity is
a *major* issue. Take a look at DanceSafe. The organization mainly
deals with behavioral toxicity involving Ecstasy and other club
drugs.

Oh, please. The very idea of "behavioral toxicity" is just as absurd
as the notion of "psychological dependence". These terms belong in the
trash heap, banned from public discourse, as they serve no other
purpose than to prevent the public from rationally understanding the
effects of drugs. Neither term has any real scientific merit, and both
ultimately reveal more about the user than the substance which suffers
the blame. Anyone who uses either term with a straight face is
employing himself as an agent of prohibition and deserves nothing more
than ridicule.

I sometimes wonder what the f ck you are even doing here.
[/quote]
Then you are an idiot. Consider the example of DanceSafe I mentioned.
DanceSafe focuses on behavioral toxicity issues. Also, I never stated
that this term doesn>t reveal more about the user than the substance.
--
http://www.dextromethorphan.ws/
For information about the psychedelic drug DXM, including dangers.
Yet another murder by someone on Coricidin:
http://www.coricidin.org/kansas-coricidin-murder.htm

glog · Guest

Once upon a timeless moment,
rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski <rfgdxm@KILLSPAMMERSmochamail.com> hallucinated:
[quote]glog wrote:
Once upon a timeless moment,
rfgdxm/Robert F. Golaszewski <rfgdxm@KILLSPAMMERSmochamail.com
hallucinated:

I suspect 2C-T-7 deaths were emphasised because of 2C-T-7>s popularity
on the research chemical scene at the time. Those deaths stood out at
the time compared to other RC>s. LSD 'behavioral toxicity' doesn>t
stand out at all next to the tens of thousands of drunk driving deaths
that happen every year, not to mention hundreds DAWN mentions of DXM.

Umm...there were all of 2 deaths involving 2C-T-7.
[/quote]
Three.

[quote]This isn>t all that
significant compared to other RCs without knowing exactly how much each
is used.
[/quote]
At the time they published the death reports it was the only popular
RC known to be involved with deaths and it was involved with three of
them. I believe since that time there has only been one confirmed RC
death, with AMT.

[quote]And, I>ve yet to be able to confirm a DAWN mention of DXM that
involved recreational use.
[/quote]
How many of the hundreds of them have you confirmed didn>t??

Magnus_Grey · Guest

[quote]Oh, please. The very idea of "behavioral toxicity" is just as
absurd
as the notion of "psychological dependence". These terms belong in the
trash heap, banned from public discourse, as they serve no other
purpose than to prevent the public from rationally understanding the
effects of drugs. Neither term has any real scientific merit, and both
ultimately reveal more about the user than the substance which suffers
the blame. Anyone who uses either term with a straight face is
employing himself as an agent of prohibition and deserves nothing more
than ridicule.

I sometimes wonder what the f ck you are even doing here.

Then you are an idiot. Consider the example of DanceSafe I mentioned.
DanceSafe focuses on behavioral toxicity issues. Also, I never stated
that this term doesn>t reveal more about the user than the substance.
[/quote]
I agree that psychological dependence is meaninless. Behavioral
toxicity is not used in the same sense. If a man jumps out the window
on LSD, the LSD has resulted in his death. However, the LSD itself did
not cause his body to die, the fall did. However, since the LSD was a
large factor in him falling, and he likely would not have had he not
taken it, we can say that LSD played a large role in his death, but
did not dirrectly cause it. It would be misleading to only lable such
a death "LSD related" without mentioning that his behavior was the
primary cause of his death. To clarify: LSD does not cause behavioral
toxicity, however, it may play a role in generating it for some
people. What category would you put "psychotic breaks" from large drug
ammounts into that lead to death? Suicide? Overdose? Both of those
terms are in fact less clear in such cases. Also, your venom serves no
useful purpose here, at least RFG is trying to help people.

-Bryan

P.S. you should pop in the dextroverse more often RFG, I know we have
diferent styles, but I value your imput.


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