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Steve Spence · Guest

some corrections below:

--
Steve Spence
www.green-trust.org
"Mike Darrett" <mike-nospam@darrettenterprises.com> wrote in message
news:d945119c.0308071416.19ffa643@posting.google.com...
[quote]"João Antonio" <jas_bomfim@uol.com.br> wrote in message
news:<bgtkg7$ktj$1@news.mc.ntu.edu.tw>...
Is it possible to say, as a rule-of-thumb:

That whenever you use a fuel froma renovable source,
I mean vegetable oil or alcohol from fermentation, the main power
input is made by the sun. It is possible to extract vegetable oils
and esterify them to get 'biodiesel" without burning fossil fuels,
even though we do this in some stages because it helps the
process.

Is that right?

vegetable oil and alcohol: you have energy requirements for:

- planting (unless you rely on cheap labor; even then you have to feed
the laborers, ha, ha, ha)
[/quote]
yes, but they need not be fossil fuels

[quote]- watering (have to supply energy to pump the water - usually done at
night, when electric costs are cheaper; or, to dig irrigation canals
[farm machinery])
[/quote]
not necessary in our climate, or many others

[quote]- fertilizer (making it: Haber Bosch process is energy-intensive; also
have to drive farm machinery to apply it)
[/quote]
not necessary

[quote]- pesticides (both making it and applying it)
[/quote]
not necessary

[quote]- harvesting (again, farm machinery)
[/quote]
not fossil fuels, we are growing a diesel substitute remember.

[quote]- separation / purification
[/quote]
this is called settling and filtering, a non energy or chemical intensive
task.

[quote]
- ethanol production: you have to distill out the ethanol,
[/quote]
yes

PLUS break
[quote]the 95% azeotrope (whoopee... calcium oxide? takes energy to make
that too...)
[/quote]
no, we burn 160 proof neat.

[quote]
- biodiesel production: you need ethanol or methanol, PLUS sodium
hydroxide (a very energy-intensive electrolysis process)
[/quote]
or KOH, but we burn the veggie oil straight most times, and don>t bother
with the biodiesel chemical process.

Roland Paterson-Jones · Guest

"Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote in message
news:3f321cfd$1_1@newsfeed...
[quote]That is incorrect. Chemical fertilizers and pesticides are not necessary.
nor is irrigation. all our crops are chemical free, and used no fossil
fuels
for planting, growing, or harvesting. Your climate may differ.

74.7 W, 44.8 N
[/quote]
Er, what was incorrect? I was merely pointing out the areas where there
might be some unexpected fossil fuel dependence.

For best energy balance, sure, you need to grow where the crops match the
environment.

Roland

Roland and Lisa Paterson-Jones
Forest Lodge, Stirrup Lane, Hout Bay
http://www.rolandpj.com/forest-lodge
mobile: +27 72 386 8045
e-mail: forest-lodge@rolandpj.com

[quote]"João Antonio" <jas_bomfim@uol.com.br> wrote in message
news:bgtkg7$ktj$1@news.mc.ntu.edu.tw...
Is it possible to say, as a rule-of-thumb:

That whenever you use a fuel froma renovable source,
I mean vegetable oil or alcohol from fermentation, the main power
input is made by the sun. It is possible to extract vegetable oils
and esterify them to get 'biodiesel" without burning fossil fuels,
even though we do this in some stages because it helps the
process.

Is that right?

Joao, I think the accusation of fossil fuel dependence comes in when
fertilizers, pesticides. irrigation, and mechanical tilling, sowing and
reaping are used (i.e. modern commercial agriculture). It takes energy
to
manufacture fertilizers and pesticides, for example.

Sure, the plant uses the sun>s energy to produce its sugar or oil, but
you
may need to spend an awful amount of energy to maintain an environment
allowing the plant to grow.

Roland

--
Roland and Lisa Paterson-Jones
Forest Lodge, Stirrup Lane, Hout Bay
http://www.rolandpj.com/forest-lodge
mobile: +27 72 386 8045
e-mail: forest-lodge@rolandpj.com

"Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> escreveu na mensagem
news:3f2f86ba$1_3@newsfeed...
when we were using corn, we were getting 2.3 times the fuel out that
we
put
in (distillation only). we also ran the tractors on the corn oil as
well,
so
effectively it was closer to 4x. Since the leftover mash was feeding
the
pigs, we picked up another couple of points, making it about 6x.

--
Steve Spence
www.green-trust.org
"Repeating Decimal" <salmonfry@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:BB5558CF.667D%salmonfry@sbcglobal.net...
So I am still looking for a bottom line answer to my questions:
Which
of
the
alcohol fuel programs are not merely converting fossil fuel into
alcohol?
What is the energy profit rate?

Bill

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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[/quote]

dlzc@aol.com (formerly) · Guest

Dear Steve Spence:

"Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote in message
news:3f321cfd$1_1@newsfeed...
[quote]That is incorrect. Chemical fertilizers and pesticides are not necessary.
nor is irrigation. all our crops are chemical free, and used no fossil
fuels
for planting, growing, or harvesting. Your climate may differ.
[/quote]
You used no tractors or motorized equipment? Your manure or seed were not
bagged in plastic? After you released your crop, it was not hauled, or
processed by fossil fuel powered equipment?

David A. Smith

João Antonio · Guest

[quote]Harvesting, sure is mechanized nowadays. Why and what is the 95% azeotrope
that we have to break?
[/quote]
Alcohol is so fond of water that it likes to have 5% water in it.
To prepare absolute alcohol special isolation techniques are
used. Simply distilling the watery alcohol will give you an azeotrope
(some kind of mixture) containing 95% water...

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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Mike Darrett · Guest

"Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote in message news:<3f321ddb$1_1@newsfeed>...
[quote]some corrections below:

--
Steve Spence
www.green-trust.org
"Mike Darrett" <mike-nospam@darrettenterprises.com> wrote in message
news:d945119c.0308071416.19ffa643@posting.google.com...
"João Antonio" <jas_bomfim@uol.com.br> wrote in message
news:<bgtkg7$ktj$1@news.mc.ntu.edu.tw>...
Is it possible to say, as a rule-of-thumb:

That whenever you use a fuel froma renovable source,
I mean vegetable oil or alcohol from fermentation, the main power
input is made by the sun. It is possible to extract vegetable oils
and esterify them to get 'biodiesel" without burning fossil fuels,
even though we do this in some stages because it helps the
process.

Is that right?

vegetable oil and alcohol: you have energy requirements for:

- planting (unless you rely on cheap labor; even then you have to feed
the laborers, ha, ha, ha)

yes, but they need not be fossil fuels

- watering (have to supply energy to pump the water - usually done at
night, when electric costs are cheaper; or, to dig irrigation canals
[farm machinery])

not necessary in our climate, or many others

- fertilizer (making it: Haber Bosch process is energy-intensive; also
have to drive farm machinery to apply it)

not necessary

- pesticides (both making it and applying it)

not necessary

- harvesting (again, farm machinery)

not fossil fuels, we are growing a diesel substitute remember.

- separation / purification

this is called settling and filtering, a non energy or chemical intensive
task.

- ethanol production: you have to distill out the ethanol,

yes

PLUS break
the 95% azeotrope (whoopee... calcium oxide? takes energy to make
that too...)

no, we burn 160 proof neat.

- biodiesel production: you need ethanol or methanol, PLUS sodium
hydroxide (a very energy-intensive electrolysis process)

or KOH, but we burn the veggie oil straight most times, and don>t bother
with the biodiesel chemical process.
[/quote]

Abundant rainfall, even in summer. No bugs. Fertile soil. Sounds
like heaven in Ontario, CA.

How do you deal with the corrosion problems when using non-anhydrous
ethanol? Or is the average vehicle>s lifetime sufficiently short
enough so that this is not an issue?

How do you deal with the acrolein from burning straight veggie oil?

Mike

Steve Spence · Guest

ah, but that>s Don. We expect that from him.

--
Steve Spence
www.green-trust.org
"Kyler Laird" <Kyler@news.Lairds.org> wrote in message
news:i3ec01-bj3.ln1@jowls.lairds.org...
[quote]"Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> writes:

yes, that>s correct. although a fossil fuel is not necessary, just
convenient to some.

Surprisingly (to me), that>s not so obvious to some.

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3EE5F4FA.DB9C9967%40tinaja.com&output=gplain

--kyler[/quote]

Steve Spence · Guest

we used tractors and motorized equipment, but they are not powered by fossil
fuels, they are powered by vegetable oil. the manure is made onsite. yes,
the seed came in plastic, but used to come in burlap, and could again.

this is exactly my point, people are so used to using petroleum products,
they can>t even consider the alternatives. you see tractor, you
automatically assume diesel fuel. you see manure, you think plastic bags.
meat does not originate in grocery stores, and electric does not originate
in wall plates. think a bit.

--
Steve Spence
www.green-trust.org
"dlzc@aol.com (formerly)" <dlzc1.cox@net> wrote in message
news:nwOYa.7488$2g.5035@fed1read05...
[quote]Dear Steve Spence:

"Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> wrote in message
news:3f321cfd$1_1@newsfeed...
That is incorrect. Chemical fertilizers and pesticides are not
necessary.
nor is irrigation. all our crops are chemical free, and used no fossil
fuels
for planting, growing, or harvesting. Your climate may differ.

You used no tractors or motorized equipment? Your manure or seed were not
bagged in plastic? After you released your crop, it was not hauled, or
processed by fossil fuel powered equipment?

David A. Smith

[/quote]

Repeating Decimal · Guest

in article 3f34e375$0$225@hades.is.co.za, Roland Paterson-Jones at
roland@rolandpj.com wrote on 8/9/03 5:05 AM:

[quote]Here>s a page full of references to studies on ethanol energy efficiency:

http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html
[/quote]
If these arguments are all that great, how come I am still skeptical? Could
it be that the best results are reported by organization having much to gain
by pushing ethanol? I just realized, that cannot be the reason. They
wouldn>t lie just to get Government subsidy, would they?

Bill

Kyler Laird · Guest

"dlzc@aol.com $formerly$" <dlzc1.cox@net> writes:

[quote]That is incorrect. Chemical fertilizers and pesticides are not necessary.
nor is irrigation. all our crops are chemical free, and used no fossil
fuels
for planting, growing, or harvesting. Your climate may differ.

You used no tractors or motorized equipment?
[/quote]
I think at issue was "fossil fuels." Can we all agree that tractors and
other "motorized equipment" can run without them?

[quote]Your manure or seed were not
bagged in plastic?
[/quote]
Who bags manure on a farm?! I don>t think I>ve ever seen seed bagged in
plastic either. (The new bulk bags are nylon, I think, but we>re getting
along fine not switching to those.)

[quote]After you released your crop, it was not hauled, or
processed by fossil fuel powered equipment?
[/quote]
As was said, it is "not necessary" to do so.

--kyler

Roland Paterson-Jones · Guest

"Repeating Decimal" <salmonfry@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:BB5A50A9.6C18%salmonfry@sbcglobal.net...
[quote]in article 3f34e375$0$225@hades.is.co.za, Roland Paterson-Jones at
roland@rolandpj.com wrote on 8/9/03 5:05 AM:

Here>s a page full of references to studies on ethanol energy
efficiency:

http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html

If these arguments are all that great, how come I am still skeptical?
Could
it be that the best results are reported by organization having much to
gain
by pushing ethanol? I just realized, that cannot be the reason. They
wouldn>t lie just to get Government subsidy, would they?
[/quote]
Yes, you don>t believe in the integrity of the researchers. On the other
hand, do yourself (and all of us) a favour, check their data, and come to
your own reasoned opinion. Then tell us.

It>s pretty obvious you haven>t read any of the papers on that page. After
all, you start your argument with 'If these arguments...'.

Please argue facts rather than inuendo.

Roland

--
Roland and Lisa Paterson-Jones
Forest Lodge, Stirrup Lane, Hout Bay
http://www.rolandpj.com/forest-lodge
mobile: +27 72 386 8045
e-mail: forest-lodge@rolandpj.com

Bruce Hamilton · Guest

"Roland Paterson-Jones" <roland@rolandpj.com> wrote:

[quote]"Bruce Hamilton" <B.Hamilton@irl.cri.nz> wrote
It doesn>t work that way. The Kyoto Protocol etc - which the US under
GWB has pulled out of, requires national greenhouse gas emissions to
be reduced to below 1990 levels by 2008-2012. The U.S. agreed to a 7%
reduction, and the European Union and Japan agreed to 8% and 6%
reductions, respectively. It>s a reduction of emissions, not a
changing of the source of those emissions.

Yes, you>re missing the point. This is grand politics, but the fact remains,
vege-oil and ethanol are fuels that recoup the CO2 in the atmosphere.
[/quote]
I don>t know how I can put it simpler. Biofuels don>t sequester the
carbon, so the CH4, N2O, and CO2 emissions are added to the national
emissions in exactly the same way as fossil fuels are. The only
difference is that biofuels are usually more expensive for the
consumers, who believe they are being green. They would be better off
financially and environmentally if they simply reduced their fossil
fuel energy use.

The planet contains over 6.4 x 10^15 tonnes of organic carbon that
is cycled through two major cycles, but only about 18% of that
contributes to petroleum production. The primary cycle ( turnover
of 2.7-3.0 x 10^12 tonnes of organic carbon ) has a half-life of days
to decades, whereas the large secondary cycle ( turnover 6.4 x 10^15
tonnes of organic carbon ) has a half-life of several million years.

The global atmospheric carbon dioxide budget doesn>t care which sources
of carbon are used, the fossil fuels from the secondary cycle or the
biofuels from their mixture of the secondary cycle and primary cycle.

The Protocol wants to reduce the global sources of greenhouse gases,
and the USA has about 5% of the world>s population yet emits 36% of
the carbon dioxide. The intent is to reduce the emissions, not
change the source. Biofuels may be green, but the issue is reduction
of C02, CH4, and N2O emissions, and extensive cereal or cane crops
tend to increase anthropogenic gas emissions.

[quote]NZ currently has a huge problem because all of our flatulent farm
aminals produce both methane and nitrous oxide in huge amounts,
totalling over half of the national total of greenhouse gas emissions
measured under the Protocol.

You>re joking - do cow>s eject NO? I can believe methane (I>m a minor
felon).
[/quote]
Nitrous oxide is N2O, not NO. 50% of the anthropogenic sources of our N2O
emissions are classified as from herbivore excrement. The would be from soil
bacteria utilising the shit and urine.

Bruce Hamilton

Steve Spence · Guest

95% works fine in an ICE, so breaking through to 100% is not necessary
unless you are trying to mix it with gasoline.

--
Steve Spence
www.green-trust.org
"João Antonio" <jas_bomfim@uol.com.br> wrote in message
news:bh1r4l$pnn$1@news.mc.ntu.edu.tw...
[quote]Harvesting, sure is mechanized nowadays. Why and what is the 95%
azeotrope
that we have to break?

Alcohol is so fond of water that it likes to have 5% water in it.
To prepare absolute alcohol special isolation techniques are
used. Simply distilling the watery alcohol will give you an azeotrope
(some kind of mixture) containing 95% water...

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.507 / Virus Database: 304 - Release Date: 4/8/2003

[/quote]

Steve Spence · Guest

or http://webconx.green-trust.org/ethanol.htm

--
Steve Spence
www.green-trust.org
"Roland Paterson-Jones" <roland@rolandpj.com> wrote in message
news:3f34e375$0$225@hades.is.co.za...
[quote]Here>s a page full of references to studies on ethanol energy efficiency:

http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html

Enjoy
Roland

--
Roland and Lisa Paterson-Jones
Forest Lodge, Stirrup Lane, Hout Bay
http://www.rolandpj.com/forest-lodge
mobile: +27 72 386 8045
e-mail: forest-lodge@rolandpj.com

"João Antonio" <jas_bomfim@uol.com.br> wrote in message
news:bgtkg7$ktj$1@news.mc.ntu.edu.tw...
Is it possible to say, as a rule-of-thumb:

That whenever you use a fuel froma renovable source,
I mean vegetable oil or alcohol from fermentation, the main power
input is made by the sun. It is possible to extract vegetable oils
and esterify them to get 'biodiesel" without burning fossil fuels,
even though we do this in some stages because it helps the
process.

Is that right?

"Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> escreveu na mensagem
news:3f2f86ba$1_3@newsfeed...
when we were using corn, we were getting 2.3 times the fuel out that
we
put
in (distillation only). we also ran the tractors on the corn oil as
well,
so
effectively it was closer to 4x. Since the leftover mash was feeding
the
pigs, we picked up another couple of points, making it about 6x.

--
Steve Spence
www.green-trust.org
"Repeating Decimal" <salmonfry@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:BB5558CF.667D%salmonfry@sbcglobal.net...
So I am still looking for a bottom line answer to my questions:
Which
of
the
alcohol fuel programs are not merely converting fossil fuel into
alcohol?
What is the energy profit rate?

Bill

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.507 / Virus Database: 304 - Release Date: 4/8/2003

[/quote]

Steve Spence · Guest

or http://webconx.green-trust.org/ethanol.htm

--
Steve Spence
www.green-trust.org
"Roland Paterson-Jones" <roland@rolandpj.com> wrote in message
news:3f34e375$0$225@hades.is.co.za...
[quote]Here>s a page full of references to studies on ethanol energy efficiency:

http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html

Enjoy
Roland

--
Roland and Lisa Paterson-Jones
Forest Lodge, Stirrup Lane, Hout Bay
http://www.rolandpj.com/forest-lodge
mobile: +27 72 386 8045
e-mail: forest-lodge@rolandpj.com

"João Antonio" <jas_bomfim@uol.com.br> wrote in message
news:bgtkg7$ktj$1@news.mc.ntu.edu.tw...
Is it possible to say, as a rule-of-thumb:

That whenever you use a fuel froma renovable source,
I mean vegetable oil or alcohol from fermentation, the main power
input is made by the sun. It is possible to extract vegetable oils
and esterify them to get 'biodiesel" without burning fossil fuels,
even though we do this in some stages because it helps the
process.

Is that right?

"Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> escreveu na mensagem
news:3f2f86ba$1_3@newsfeed...
when we were using corn, we were getting 2.3 times the fuel out that
we
put
in (distillation only). we also ran the tractors on the corn oil as
well,
so
effectively it was closer to 4x. Since the leftover mash was feeding
the
pigs, we picked up another couple of points, making it about 6x.

--
Steve Spence
www.green-trust.org
"Repeating Decimal" <salmonfry@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:BB5558CF.667D%salmonfry@sbcglobal.net...
So I am still looking for a bottom line answer to my questions:
Which
of
the
alcohol fuel programs are not merely converting fossil fuel into
alcohol?
What is the energy profit rate?

Bill

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.507 / Virus Database: 304 - Release Date: 4/8/2003

[/quote]

Steve Spence · Guest

or http://webconx.green-trust.org/ethanol.htm

--
Steve Spence
www.green-trust.org
"Roland Paterson-Jones" <roland@rolandpj.com> wrote in message
news:3f34e375$0$225@hades.is.co.za...
[quote]Here>s a page full of references to studies on ethanol energy efficiency:

http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html

Enjoy
Roland

--
Roland and Lisa Paterson-Jones
Forest Lodge, Stirrup Lane, Hout Bay
http://www.rolandpj.com/forest-lodge
mobile: +27 72 386 8045
e-mail: forest-lodge@rolandpj.com

"João Antonio" <jas_bomfim@uol.com.br> wrote in message
news:bgtkg7$ktj$1@news.mc.ntu.edu.tw...
Is it possible to say, as a rule-of-thumb:

That whenever you use a fuel froma renovable source,
I mean vegetable oil or alcohol from fermentation, the main power
input is made by the sun. It is possible to extract vegetable oils
and esterify them to get 'biodiesel" without burning fossil fuels,
even though we do this in some stages because it helps the
process.

Is that right?

"Steve Spence" <sspence@green-trust.org> escreveu na mensagem
news:3f2f86ba$1_3@newsfeed...
when we were using corn, we were getting 2.3 times the fuel out that
we
put
in (distillation only). we also ran the tractors on the corn oil as
well,
so
effectively it was closer to 4x. Since the leftover mash was feeding
the
pigs, we picked up another couple of points, making it about 6x.

--
Steve Spence
www.green-trust.org
"Repeating Decimal" <salmonfry@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:BB5558CF.667D%salmonfry@sbcglobal.net...
So I am still looking for a bottom line answer to my questions:
Which
of
the
alcohol fuel programs are not merely converting fossil fuel into
alcohol?
What is the energy profit rate?

Bill

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.507 / Virus Database: 304 - Release Date: 4/8/2003

[/quote]


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