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Harlan Messinger
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 Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:58 pm Post subject: Re: Spanish and Arabic for 'duck' |
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Italo wrote:
[quote]Douglas G. Kilday wrote:
I find it implausible that Spanish would devoice only one or two
Arabic loanwords in /ba-/ to /pa-/,
There is patache < batash (type of ship)
Interestingly, rae.es says "infl. por *pato*", which seems to beg the[/quote]
question.
Well, this is interesting. Under "pato" they have "Del ár. hisp. páṭṭ,
este del ár. clás. baṭṭ, y este del persa bat". So did *Iberian Arabic*
develop /p/ where Classical Arabic had /b/? |
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Peter T. Daniels
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:21 am Post subject: Re: Spanish and Arabic for 'duck' |
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On Jul 19, 7:50 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
[quote]On Jul 19, 4:47 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 19, 2:58 pm, Harlan Messinger
hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net> wrote:
Italo wrote:
Douglas G. Kilday wrote:
I find it implausible that Spanish would devoice only one or two
Arabic loanwords in /ba-/ to /pa-/,
There is patache < batash (type of ship)
Interestingly, rae.es says "infl. por *pato*", which seems to beg the
question.
Well, this is interesting. Under "pato" they have "Del ár. hisp. páṭṭ,
este del ár. clás. baṭṭ, y este del persa bat". So did *Iberian Arabic*
develop /p/ where Classical Arabic had /b/?
There are two ways to determine that: from loanwords into Iberian
IIRC thereare also romanized colloquial arabic - spanish vocabularies
from the late period.
[/quote]
I haven>t heard of these -- Benny Hary doesn>t use them in his book
(Judeo-Arabic texts are usually said to be the sole source for Middle
Arabic generally) -- do you have references? (I know, EI2.)
[quote]languages, and from fully pointed Judeo-Arabic texts from Andalusia --
which could show a Pe with dagesh. Hary in WWS registers only plain Pe
and Pe with raphe, but most Judeo-Arabic texts are from the Cairo
Genizah and so do not reflect an Iberian-influenced dialect.[/quote] |
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Duan Vukoti
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: Spanish and Arabic for 'duck' |
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On Jul 19, 2:35 pm, Italo <ola...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote]Is there any possibility that Spanish <pata> 'duck' may be
connected to 'boat', O.E. <bat>? (reminds me of
Vogelbarke type ships, btw.)- Hide quoted text -
[/quote]
Italo asked a very interesting question. Indeed, is it possible that
Spanish pata is related to English boat? In Slavic languages duck is
derived from the noun voda (water) or the verb plutat/ploviti/plivati
(swim, float; Russ. плавать; Cz. plavit; OSl плавати float). Russian
утка/utka (duck) is a water animal (Russ. водяной); i.e. utka could be
v-utka similar to the Russian diminutive of voda (vodka/votka; Serbian
vodica/votkica /a small water/ => patkica /a small duck/).
Lithvanian antis (duck; cf. Sp. ánade, Ger. Ente, Lat. anas) sounds
very close to the Lithuanian word v-anduo (water), where the initial
sound v is omitted. Old Hindi ātíṣ ("the water animal") clearly
corresponds to Russian utka (duck) and to the Sanskrit noun udaka
(water; Skt. udaka <=> Russ. utka).
English duck appeared to be related to the second syllable of the
Serbian word patak (drake; cf. Ir. bu-dhaigir ducker, puffin); i.e. it
might be related to Serbian tonuti (dunk), from po-tonuti or po-
tanjati, po-tanja (immerse into a liquid, plunge).
In Serbian duck is called either plovka or patka. Both words are
clearly related to the verb "float" and IE root *pleu-, *plud-. It
means that Serb. patka is derived from *plut-; i.e. from plutka =>
platka => patka (an animal that floats on water; Serb. plutati /
float/). In the similar way was formed the Serbian word potok (brook),
which is a stream of water shallower than river, and therefore Serb.
plitak (shallow).
Russian лодка/lodka (boat) is also floating on water in the same way
as a duck does- p/lotka (Serb. lađa; Ita. battello boat; Serbian
plovilo/plutalo /floating object/). Of course, the etymologists
believe that Eng. boat (OE bat) is derived from the IE root *bheid-
(bite, split, cleave), but I think it is more plausible that boat is
also related to water and float (Eng. floating = Serb. plutanje).
DV |
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Duan Vukoti
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| Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: Spanish and Arabic for 'duck' |
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On Jul 20, 10:41 pm, Dušan Vukotić <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]On Jul 19, 2:35 pm, Italo <ola...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Is there any possibility that Spanish <pata> 'duck' may be
connected to 'boat', O.E. <bat>? (reminds me of
Vogelbarke type ships, btw.)- Hide quoted text -
Italo asked a very interesting question. Indeed, is it possible that
Spanish pata is related to English boat? In Slavic languages duck is
derived from the noun voda (water) or the verb plutat/ploviti/plivati
(swim, float; Russ. плавать; Cz. plavit; OSl плавати float). Russian
утка/utka (duck) is a water animal (Russ. водяной); i.e. utka could be
v-utka similar to the Russian diminutive of voda (vodka/votka; Serbian
vodica/votkica /a small water/ => patkica /a small duck/).
Lithvanian antis (duck; cf. Sp. ánade, Ger. Ente, Lat. anas) sounds
very close to the Lithuanian word v-anduo (water), where the initial
sound v is omitted. Old Hindi ātíṣ ("the water animal") clearly
corresponds to Russian utka (duck) and to the Sanskrit noun udaka
(water; Skt. udaka <=> Russ. utka).
English duck appeared to be related to the second syllable of the
Serbian word patak (drake; cf. Ir. bu-dhaigir ducker, puffin); i.e. it
might be related to Serbian tonuti (dunk), from po-tonuti or po-
tanjati, po-tanja (immerse into a liquid, plunge).
In Serbian duck is called either plovka or patka. Both words are
clearly related to the verb "float" and IE root *pleu-, *plud-. It
means that Serb. patka is derived from *plut-; i.e. from plutka =
platka => patka (an animal that floats on water; Serb. plutati /
float/). In the similar way was formed the Serbian word potok (brook),
which is a stream of water shallower than river, and therefore Serb.
plitak (shallow).
Russian лодка/lodka (boat) is also floating on water in the same way
as a duck does- p/lotka (Serb. lađa; Ita. battello boat; Serbian
plovilo/plutalo /floating object/). Of course, the etymologists
believe that Eng. boat (OE bat) is derived from the IE root *bheid-
(bite, split, cleave), but I think it is more plausible that boat is
also related to water and float (Eng. floating = Serb. plutanje).
DV
[/quote]
In fact, the ur-basis Bel-Gon is the ancestor of all the above words
and all those words are related to water. For instance, the word
"bath" (OE bæð) sounded the same as OE bat (boat) in MG - bat (bath).
If we know that Latin balneum or balineum means "bath" or "bathing
place" the most logical conclusion might be that all these words
(boat, bath and balneum) originated from the same basis (Bel-Gon).
Serbian banja (spa, bath) and the verb banjati (to bathe; Sp. bańo,
Ita. bagno = Ger. baden) also belong to the same "belgonic"
derivatives.
DV |
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Italo
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:57 am Post subject: Re: Spanish and Arabic for 'duck' |
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Dušan Vukotić wrote:
[quote]On Jul 19, 2:35 pm, Italo <ola...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Is there any possibility that Spanish <pata> 'duck' may
be connected to 'boat', O.E. <bat>? (reminds me of
Vogelbarke type ships, btw.)- Hide quoted text -
Italo asked a very interesting question. Indeed, is it
possible that Spanish pata is related to English boat? In
Slavic languages duck is derived from the noun voda
(water) or the verb plutat/ploviti/plivati (swim, float;
Russ. плавать; Cz. plavit; OSl плавати float). Russian
утка/utka (duck) is a water animal (Russ. водяной); i.e.
utka could be v-utka similar to the Russian diminutive of
voda (vodka/votka; Serbian vodica/votkica /a small water/
=> patkica /a small duck/).
Lithvanian antis (duck; cf. Sp. ánade, Ger. Ente, Lat.
anas) sounds very close to the Lithuanian word v-anduo
(water), where the initial sound v is omitted. Old Hindi
ātíṣ ("the water animal") clearly corresponds to
Russian utka (duck) and to the Sanskrit noun udaka
(water; Skt. udaka <=> Russ. utka).
English duck appeared to be related to the second
syllable of the Serbian word patak (drake; cf. Ir.
bu-dhaigir ducker, puffin); i.e. it might be related to
Serbian tonuti (dunk), from po-tonuti or po- tanjati,
po-tanja (immerse into a liquid, plunge).
In Serbian duck is called either plovka or patka. Both
words are clearly related to the verb "float" and IE root
*pleu-, *plud-. It means that Serb. patka is derived
from *plut-; i.e. from plutka => platka => patka (an
animal that floats on water;
[/quote]
The Slavic inherited lexicon at www.indoeuropean.nl says:
---
Proto-Slavic form: pъtъka
GRAM: f. ā
PSLMEAN: `bird'
Russian: pótka `bird' [f ā]
Old Russian: potka `bird' [f ā]
Serbo-Croatian: pȁtka `duck' [f ā]; #SCr. Čak. pȁtka
(Vrgada, Orbanići) `duck' [f ā]
Latvian: putns `bird' [m o]
Indo-European reconstruction: put-
---
*put doesn>t seem to be in Pokorny>s dictionary, though.
I>m curious if that Persian word for duck, bat, is
considered to be of I.E. origin.
[quote]Serb. plutati / float/). In the similar way was formed
the Serbian word potok (brook), which is a stream of
water shallower than river, and therefore Serb. plitak
(shallow).
Russian лодка/lodka (boat) is also floating on water in
the same way as a duck does- p/lotka (Serb. lađa; Ita.
battello boat; Serbian plovilo/plutalo /floating
object/). Of course, the etymologists believe that Eng.
boat (OE bat) is derived from the IE root *bheid- (bite,
split, cleave), but I think it is more plausible that
boat is also related to water and float (Eng. floating =
Serb. plutanje).
DV
[/quote]
All the 'boat' words seem to be of Germanic origin.
Yet it was typical for Roman merchant ships to have a
swan>s head on the stern.
<http://www.marsatqueens.co.uk/images/MARS%20Mosaic.JPG>
This tradition is much older, there are many bronze age
depictions of bird-headed boats (which due to their
construction often already resemble some waterbird).
<http://ina.tamu.edu/library/tropis/volumes/4/Wachsmann,%20Shelley%20-%20Bird-head%20devices%20on%20Mediterranean%20ships.pdf> |
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Duan Vukoti
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: Re: Spanish and Arabic for 'duck' |
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On Jul 22, 1:57 am, Italo <ola...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote]Dušan Vukotić wrote:
On Jul 19, 2:35 pm, Italo <ola...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Is there any possibility that Spanish <pata> 'duck' may
be connected to 'boat', O.E. <bat>? (reminds me of
Vogelbarke type ships, btw.)- Hide quoted text -
Italo asked a very interesting question. Indeed, is it
possible that Spanish pata is related to English boat? In
Slavic languages duck is derived from the noun voda
(water) or the verb plutat/ploviti/plivati (swim, float;
Russ. плавать; Cz. plavit; OSl плавати float). Russian
утка/utka (duck) is a water animal (Russ. водяной); i.e.
utka could be v-utka similar to the Russian diminutive of
voda (vodka/votka; Serbian vodica/votkica /a small water/
=> patkica /a small duck/).
Lithvanian antis (duck; cf. Sp. ánade, Ger. Ente, Lat.
anas) sounds very close to the Lithuanian word v-anduo
(water), where the initial sound v is omitted. Old Hindi
ātíṣ ("the water animal") clearly corresponds to
Russian utka (duck) and to the Sanskrit noun udaka
(water; Skt. udaka <=> Russ. utka).
English duck appeared to be related to the second
syllable of the Serbian word patak (drake; cf. Ir.
bu-dhaigir ducker, puffin); i.e. it might be related to
Serbian tonuti (dunk), from po-tonuti or po- tanjati,
po-tanja (immerse into a liquid, plunge).
In Serbian duck is called either plovka or patka. Both
words are clearly related to the verb "float" and IE root
*pleu-, *plud-. It means that Serb. patka is derived
from *plut-; i.e. from plutka => platka => patka (an
animal that floats on water;
The Slavic inherited lexicon atwww.indoeuropean.nlsays:
---
Proto-Slavic form: pъtъka
GRAM: f. ā
PSLMEAN: `bird'
Russian: pótka `bird' [f ā]
Old Russian: potka `bird' [f ā]
Serbo-Croatian: pȁtka `duck' [f ā]; #SCr. Čak. pȁtka
(Vrgada, Orbanići) `duck' [f ā]
Latvian: putns `bird' [m o]
Indo-European reconstruction: put-
---
*put doesn>t seem to be in Pokorny>s dictionary, though.
I>m curious if that Persian word for duck, bat, is
considered to be of I.E. origin.
Serb. plutati / float/). In the similar way was formed
the Serbian word potok (brook), which is a stream of
water shallower than river, and therefore Serb. plitak
(shallow).
Russian лодка/lodka (boat) is also floating on water in
the same way as a duck does- p/lotka (Serb. lađa; Ita.
battello boat; Serbian plovilo/plutalo /floating
object/). Of course, the etymologists believe that Eng.
boat (OE bat) is derived from the IE root *bheid- (bite,
split, cleave), but I think it is more plausible that
boat is also related to water and float (Eng. floating > > Serb. plutanje).
DV
All the 'boat' words seem to be of Germanic origin.
[/quote]
What then to say about Latin platalea (a water bird)? Is it not the
same as Serbian p(l)atka or plovka (plovilo/plutalo a kind of boat;
ploviti/plutati float/fly) or Italian battello (boat). The ommission
of the sound "l" in those cases is a comman practice (cf. OE fugol;
Ger. Vogel and Flug/flight; Flügel wings). Slavic ptica (bird) is
derived from the verb poleteti (fly; poletica => ptica); the all IE
"flying" and "floating" vebs are related and it normal: you can
"float" on the sea as well as across the sky.
In fact, all the above words are "born" in accordance with the
observation of the movement of clouds (Bel-Gon basis; Slavic oblak;
Ger. Wolken; Gr. νε-φέλιον; πτηνός, πετεινός able to fly; ποτητός
flying; πλοώδης floating).
No, the "boat" words are not Germanic but IE and they are were
differently developed in different IE languages... from the Bel-Gon ur-
basis of course. It is quite logical that man patterned his floating
and flying objects in a form of birds. There is nothing unusual in it;
the mother nature made the best flying and floating/diving "objects"
on earth. :-)
DV |
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Heidi Graw
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:06 am Post subject: Re: Spanish and Arabic for 'duck' |
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Hi Dusan,
I>ll try that arabic duck. ;-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uexbupFP8Og&feature=related
Take care,
Heidi |
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Franz Gnaedinger
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:41 am Post subject: Re: Spanish and Arabic for 'duck' |
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On Jul 19, 4:34 am, "Douglas G. Kilday" <fufl...@chorus.net> wrote:
[quote]
Another chestnut. ATILF thinks the French cognate <patte> 'animal
foot, paw' is onomatopoeic, which I regard as a cop-out. Likewise,
AHD thinks Middle English <patte> 'pat' is probably imitative. Native-
speaker intuition cuts both ways. Natives are hardly in a position to
judge whether a given word is onomatopoeic, having undergone a
lifetime of associating the sound with the sense.
[/quote]
PAD as origin of French patte is a model case in
Magdalenian and even goes back to Aurigniacian,
twice as old:
PAD --- activity of feet, onomatopoeic, pad pad pad
pad ...; words for foot and feet in many languages
including English, perhaps also the origin of that word
for duck - consider their funny feet, there is a German
verb for how they go on land: patschen, also toddlers
patschen when they walk around with wet feet, placing
the whole area of the feet>s sole on the flat ground
at once instead of rolling off their feet as we do
DAP (inverse form of pad) --- activity of hands; French
tapper, English tap, to tap, Swiss Taape for hand
PAS (comparative form of pad) --- everywhere in a plain,
here, south and north of me, east and west of me, all
in all five places; ancient Greek pas pan for all, every,
pente penta- for five
SAP (inverse form of pas) --- everywhere in space,
here, south and north of me, east and west of me,
under and above me, all in all seven places; origin
of the word for seven in many languages including
Hebrew, Beersheba means Well of the Divine
Number Seven (Cyrus H. Gordon), Latin sapientia
for knowledge of the world, wisdom (having traveled
the world, seen all the places and gathered ample
experience) |
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Yusuf B Gursey
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: Spanish and Arabic for 'duck' |
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On Jul 20, 12:21 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]On Jul 19, 7:50 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
On Jul 19, 4:47 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 19, 2:58 pm, Harlan Messinger
hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net> wrote:
Italo wrote:
Douglas G. Kilday wrote:
I find it implausible that Spanish would devoice only one or two
Arabic loanwords in /ba-/ to /pa-/,
There is patache < batash (type of ship)
Interestingly, rae.es says "infl. por *pato*", which seems to beg the
question.
Well, this is interesting. Under "pato" they have "Del ár. hisp. páṭṭ,
este del ár. clás. baṭṭ, y este del persa bat". So did *Iberian Arabic*
develop /p/ where Classical Arabic had /b/?
There are two ways to determine that: from loanwords into Iberian
IIRC thereare also romanized colloquial arabic - spanish vocabularies
from the late period.
I haven>t heard of these -- Benny Hary doesn>t use them in his book
(Judeo-Arabic texts are usually said to be the sole source for Middle
Arabic generally) -- do you have references? (I know, EI2.)
[/quote]
yes, EI2
apparently andalusian arabic had occassional /p/
incidentally, turkish also has p in th ename of th ebird, papag~an <
arabic
[quote]
languages, and from fully pointed Judeo-Arabic texts from Andalusia --
which could show a Pe with dagesh. Hary in WWS registers only plain Pe
and Pe with raphe, but most Judeo-Arabic texts are from the Cairo
Genizah and so do not reflect an Iberian-influenced dialect.- Hide quoted text -
[/quote] |
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Yusuf B Gursey
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: Spanish and Arabic for 'duck' |
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On Jul 22, 3:57 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
[quote]On Jul 20, 12:21 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 19, 7:50 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
On Jul 19, 4:47 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 19, 2:58 pm, Harlan Messinger
hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net> wrote:
Italo wrote:
Douglas G. Kilday wrote:
I find it implausible that Spanish would devoice only one or two
Arabic loanwords in /ba-/ to /pa-/,
There is patache < batash (type of ship)
Interestingly, rae.es says "infl. por *pato*", which seems to beg the
question.
Well, this is interesting. Under "pato" they have "Del ár. hisp. páṭṭ,
este del ár. clás. baṭṭ, y este del persa bat". So did *Iberian Arabic*
develop /p/ where Classical Arabic had /b/?
There are two ways to determine that: from loanwords into Iberian
IIRC thereare also romanized colloquial arabic - spanish vocabularies
from the late period.
I haven>t heard of these -- Benny Hary doesn>t use them in his book
(Judeo-Arabic texts are usually said to be the sole source for Middle
Arabic generally) -- do you have references? (I know, EI2.)
yes, EI2
apparently andalusian arabic had occassional /p/
[/quote]
indicated in textx with <b> with shadda
[quote]
incidentally, turkish also has p in th ename of th ebird, papag~an
arabic
languages, and from fully pointed Judeo-Arabic texts from Andalusia --
which could show a Pe with dagesh. Hary in WWS registers only plain Pe
and Pe with raphe, but most Judeo-Arabic texts are from the Cairo
Genizah and so do not reflect an Iberian-influenced dialect.
[/quote] |
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Yusuf B Gursey
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: Spanish and Arabic for 'duck' |
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On Jul 22, 3:57 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
[quote]On Jul 20, 12:21 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 19, 7:50 pm, Yusuf B Gursey <y...@theworld.com> wrote:
On Jul 19, 4:47 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
On Jul 19, 2:58 pm, Harlan Messinger
hmessinger.removet...@comcast.net> wrote:
Italo wrote:
Douglas G. Kilday wrote:
I find it implausible that Spanish would devoice only one or two
Arabic loanwords in /ba-/ to /pa-/,
There is patache < batash (type of ship)
Interestingly, rae.es says "infl. por *pato*", which seems to beg the
question.
Well, this is interesting. Under "pato" they have "Del ár. hisp. páṭṭ,
este del ár. clás. baṭṭ, y este del persa bat". So did *Iberian Arabic*
develop /p/ where Classical Arabic had /b/?
There are two ways to determine that: from loanwords into Iberian
IIRC thereare also romanized colloquial arabic - spanish vocabularies
from the late period.
I haven>t heard of these -- Benny Hary doesn>t use them in his book
(Judeo-Arabic texts are usually said to be the sole source for Middle
Arabic generally) -- do you have references? (I know, EI2.)
yes, EI2
apparently andalusian arabic had occassional /p/
incidentally, turkish also has p in th ename of th ebird, papag~an
[/quote]
for parrot
[quote]arabic
languages, and from fully pointed Judeo-Arabic texts from Andalusia --
which could show a Pe with dagesh. Hary in WWS registers only plain Pe
and Pe with raphe, but most Judeo-Arabic texts are from the Cairo
Genizah and so do not reflect an Iberian-influenced dialect.- Hide quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -[/quote] |
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Franz Gnaedinger
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:44 am Post subject: Re: Spanish and Arabic for 'duck' |
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On Jul 22, 9:41am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
[quote]On Jul 19, 4:34 am, "Douglas G. Kilday" <fufl...@chorus.net> wrote:
Another chestnut. ATILF thinks the French cognate <patte> 'animal
foot, paw' is onomatopoeic, which I regard as a cop-out. Likewise,
AHD thinks Middle English <patte> 'pat' is probably imitative. Native-
speaker intuition cuts both ways. Natives are hardly in a position to
judge whether a given word is onomatopoeic, having undergone a
lifetime of associating the sound with the sense.
PAD as origin of French patte is a model case in
Magdalenian and even goes back to Aurigniacian,
twice as old:
PAD --- activity of feet, onomatopoeic, pad pad pad
pad ...; words for foot and feet in many languages
including English, perhaps also the origin of that word
for duck - consider their funny feet, there is a German
verb for how they go on land: patschen, also toddlers
patschen when they walk around with wet feet, placing
the whole area of the feet>s sole on the flat ground
at once instead of rolling off their feet as we do
DAP (inverse form of pad) --- activity of hands; French
tapper, English tap, to tap, Swiss Taape for hand
PAS (comparative form of pad) --- everywhere in a plain,
here, south and north of me, east and west of me, all
in all five places; ancient Greek pas pan for all, every,
pente penta- for five
SAP (inverse form of pas) --- everywhere in space,
here, south and north of me, east and west of me,
under and above me, all in all seven places; origin
of the word for seven in many languages including
Hebrew, Beersheba means Well of the Divine
Number Seven (Cyrus H. Gordon), Latin sapientia
for knowledge of the world, wisdom (having traveled
the world, seen all the places and gathered ample
experience)
[/quote]
The actual German verb for the way a duck walks
is watscheln, while the way of placing the flat feet
on the ground is called patschen, especially if the
feet are wet. I guess patschen and watscheln
go back to the same root. Swimming ducks paddle,
flying ducks flap their wings, in French: ils battent
les ailes (beat the wings). Beat, battre and paddle
expand the meaning of PAD for the activity of feet
to modified extremities (wings) and to an artificial
prolongation of extremities (paddle, prolonging
arm and hand). |
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Peter T. Daniels
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: Spanish and Arabic for 'duck' |
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On Jul 23, 8:47 am, António Marques <m...@sapo.pt> wrote:
[quote]Harlan Messinger wrote:
Italo wrote:
Douglas G. Kilday wrote:
I find it implausible that Spanish would devoice only one or two
Arabic loanwords in /ba-/ to /pa-/,
There is patache < batash (type of ship)
Interestingly, rae.es says "infl. por *pato*", which seems to beg the
question.
Well, this is interesting. Under "pato" they have "Del ár. hisp. páṭṭ,
este del ár. clás. baṭṭ, y este del persa bat". So did *Iberian Arabic*
develop /p/ where Classical Arabic had /b/?
The verified romace loans, which have b, seem to contradict that.
And you can add Lisbon to the lot - it>s from Olisipon through arabic.
Curiously Illiberris > Le´vora > E´vora. It suggests intervocalic /b/
was [v], at least in that area. As to the loss of the /l-/, it>s almost
certainly due to interference from the article, though by the time the
portuguese conquered Evora the article has long lost its l - could the
city have been well known up north, centuries before being conquered?
[/quote]
In contemporaray Arabic, p > b. I>ve heard both Moammar Qaddafi and
Yassir Arafat speaking English (briefly) on the occasion of state
visits, and both said "beeble" for "people." |
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António Marques
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: Spanish and Arabic for 'duck' |
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Harlan Messinger wrote:
[quote]Italo wrote:
Douglas G. Kilday wrote:
I find it implausible that Spanish would devoice only one or two
Arabic loanwords in /ba-/ to /pa-/,
There is patache < batash (type of ship)
Interestingly, rae.es says "infl. por *pato*", which seems to beg the
question.
Well, this is interesting. Under "pato" they have "Del ár. hisp. páṭṭ,
este del ár. clás. baṭṭ, y este del persa bat". So did *Iberian Arabic*
develop /p/ where Classical Arabic had /b/?
[/quote]
The verified romace loans, which have b, seem to contradict that.
And you can add Lisbon to the lot - it>s from Olisipon through arabic.
Curiously Illiberris > Le´vora > E´vora. It suggests intervocalic /b/
was [v], at least in that area. As to the loss of the /l-/, it>s almost
certainly due to interference from the article, though by the time the
portuguese conquered Evora the article has long lost its l - could the
city have been well known up north, centuries before being conquered?
--
António Marques
--
This signature does not include a prefab parting phrase
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** |
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António Marques
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: Re: Spanish and Arabic for 'duck' |
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António Marques wrote:
[quote]Curiously Illiberris > Le´vora > E´vora. It suggests intervocalic /b/
was [v], at least in that area.
[/quote]
What it suggests is that I should sleep more. E´vora < lat. Ebora. I
dount it went through an arabic intermediate, since it>s a completely
regular development.
Of course, talking toponyms, one must always remember that those words
weren>t latin but autochtonous to begin with, and the local
pronunciation need not be exactly in line with the official latin of
Rome, even discounting romance sound changes.
[quote]As to the loss of the /l-/, it>s almost
certainly due to interference from the article, though by the time the
portuguese conquered Evora the article has long lost its l - could the
city have been well known up north, centuries before being conquered?
--[/quote]
António Marques
--
This signature does not include a prefab parting phrase
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** |
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