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Craig Fink
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 Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: Soyuz to be fixed at Space Station |
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Russian space engineers say the bolts at one particular location failed to
work properly during each of the two previous Soyuz landings...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25399516/
....Russian experts have told NASA that the bolts at position 5 apparently
failed to fire during both previous Soyuz descents...If all goes as
planned, the bolt in its protective canister will be returned to Earth
inside the Soyuz when it lands in October. The Russians will study the bolt
to determine if the recent failures represented some fabrication flaw or
merely random coincidences...
(Wiring) fabrication flaw or (Bolt) fabrication flaw and random coincidence?
Bad bolt, then they found the problem, and the risk to this entry was
reduced by 1/5 th, as the other four positions could randomly have two bad
bolts. Removing another bolt would reduce the risk by another 1/5th.
Good bolt, keep looking. If it>s a wiring problem with position 5 then the
risk to this entry was eliminated with the removal of the bolt.
--
Craig Fink
Courtesy E-Mail Welcome @ WeBeGood@GMail.Com |
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Alan Erskine
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| Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: Soyuz to be fixed at Space Station |
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"Craig Fink" <WeBeGood@GMail.Com> wrote in message
news:F9GdnfVrjMb6R_nVnZ2dnUVZ_hGdnZ2d@earthlink.com...
[quote]Bad bolt, then they found the problem, and the risk to this entry was
reduced by 1/5 th, as the other four positions could randomly have two bad
bolts. Removing another bolt would reduce the risk by another 1/5th.
Good bolt, keep looking. If it>s a wiring problem with position 5 then the
risk to this entry was eliminated with the removal of the bolt.
[/quote]
Are they going to replace the bolt? |
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George
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:37 am Post subject: Re: Soyuz to be fixed at Space Station |
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"Alan Erskine" <alan.erskine@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:_959k.15335$IK1.11035@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
[quote]"Craig Fink" <WeBeGood@GMail.Com> wrote in message
news:F9GdnfVrjMb6R_nVnZ2dnUVZ_hGdnZ2d@earthlink.com...
Bad bolt, then they found the problem, and the risk to this entry was
reduced by 1/5 th, as the other four positions could randomly have two
bad
bolts. Removing another bolt would reduce the risk by another 1/5th.
Good bolt, keep looking. If it>s a wiring problem with position 5 then
the
risk to this entry was eliminated with the removal of the bolt.
Are they going to replace the bolt?
[/quote]
From what I>ve read, they are just going to remove it. The Russians have
said the other bolts would hold the sections together until they need to be
separated.
George |
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Alan Erskine
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:43 am Post subject: Re: Soyuz to be fixed at Space Station |
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"George" <George@george.net> wrote in message
news:9jb9k.16106$s77.2155@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
[quote]
"Alan Erskine" <alan.erskine@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:_959k.15335$IK1.11035@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"Craig Fink" <WeBeGood@GMail.Com> wrote in message
news:F9GdnfVrjMb6R_nVnZ2dnUVZ_hGdnZ2d@earthlink.com...
Bad bolt, then they found the problem, and the risk to this entry was
reduced by 1/5 th, as the other four positions could randomly have two
bad
bolts. Removing another bolt would reduce the risk by another 1/5th.
Good bolt, keep looking. If it>s a wiring problem with position 5 then
the
risk to this entry was eliminated with the removal of the bolt.
Are they going to replace the bolt?
From what I>ve read, they are just going to remove it. The Russians have
said the other bolts would hold the sections together until they need to
be separated.
George
[/quote]
They hope. <phew>. At least they>re doing something; it also shows how
desparate they are about this problem and seem to realise that it>s
life-threatening. |
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JD in TX
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:50 pm Post subject: Re: Soyuz to be fixed at Space Station |
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Craig Fink <WeBeGood@GMail.Com> wrote in
news:F9GdnfVrjMb6R_nVnZ2dnUVZ_hGdnZ2d@earthlink.com:
[quote]...Russian experts have told NASA that the bolts at position 5
apparently failed to fire during both previous Soyuz descents.
[/quote]
Very interesting. I wonder if that>s just a co-incidence or if there is
something else (wiring issue) responsible for the failure? Since neither
of the pair of bolts at that location fired, and the previous Soyuz
experienced the exact same problem with the bolts in the same location,
it would suggest that the problem isn>t with the bolts themselves, but
possibly with the command used to fire the bolts. In other words, for
some reason, the bolts did not receive the signal to fire. |
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Brian Gaff
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: Soyuz to be fixed at Space Station |
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Hmm, time was that anyone fiddling with bolts that had any pyro devices
associated with them was a no no for flight crew. Are we saying that these
are definitely categorically safe to fiddle with?
I imagine very few bolts would actually be needed to hold things together
now, as most of the stress was probably at launch anyhow.
Brian
--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can>t hear them
Email: briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"Craig Fink" <WeBeGood@GMail.Com> wrote in message
news:F9GdnfVrjMb6R_nVnZ2dnUVZ_hGdnZ2d@earthlink.com...
[quote]Russian space engineers say the bolts at one particular location failed to
work properly during each of the two previous Soyuz landings...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25399516/
...Russian experts have told NASA that the bolts at position 5 apparently
failed to fire during both previous Soyuz descents...If all goes as
planned, the bolt in its protective canister will be returned to Earth
inside the Soyuz when it lands in October. The Russians will study the
bolt
to determine if the recent failures represented some fabrication flaw or
merely random coincidences...
(Wiring) fabrication flaw or (Bolt) fabrication flaw and random
coincidence?
Bad bolt, then they found the problem, and the risk to this entry was
reduced by 1/5 th, as the other four positions could randomly have two bad
bolts. Removing another bolt would reduce the risk by another 1/5th.
Good bolt, keep looking. If it>s a wiring problem with position 5 then the
risk to this entry was eliminated with the removal of the bolt.
--
Craig Fink
Courtesy E-Mail Welcome @ WeBeGood@GMail.Com[/quote] |
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Alan Erskine
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: Soyuz to be fixed at Space Station |
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"Brian Gaff" <Briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ANr9k.17278$E41.11307@text.news.virginmedia.com...
[quote]Hmm, time was that anyone fiddling with bolts that had any pyro devices
associated with them was a no no for flight crew. Are we saying that these
are definitely categorically safe to fiddle with?
[/quote]
No. It shows how desparate they are to fix it. |
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Jorge R. Frank
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: Soyuz to be fixed at Space Station |
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Alan Erskine wrote:
[quote]"Brian Gaff" <Briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ANr9k.17278$E41.11307@text.news.virginmedia.com...
Hmm, time was that anyone fiddling with bolts that had any pyro devices
associated with them was a no no for flight crew. Are we saying that these
are definitely categorically safe to fiddle with?
No. It shows how desparate they are to fix it.
[/quote]
Stated another way, they consider the risk incurred by the cosmonauts
fiddling with the pyrobolts is less than the risk incurred by performing
the next Soyuz entry without inspecting the bolts. |
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Alan Erskine
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:28 pm Post subject: Re: Soyuz to be fixed at Space Station |
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"Jorge R. Frank" <jrfrank@ibm-pc.borg> wrote in message
news:g9GdnbqSPpfgwPvVnZ2dnUVZ_srinZ2d@giganews.com...
[quote]Alan Erskine wrote:
"Brian Gaff" <Briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ANr9k.17278$E41.11307@text.news.virginmedia.com...
Hmm, time was that anyone fiddling with bolts that had any pyro devices
associated with them was a no no for flight crew. Are we saying that
these are definitely categorically safe to fiddle with?
No. It shows how desparate they are to fix it.
Stated another way, they consider the risk incurred by the cosmonauts
fiddling with the pyrobolts is less than the risk incurred by performing
the next Soyuz entry without inspecting the bolts.
[/quote]
Have the crew trained for such a thing? I wouldn>t have thought they>d have
the right tools for removal either as it>s a rather specialised device.
If they>re not trained, I hope they>ve said farewell to their families, just
in case. I>m not confidant at all of success on this task. |
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Jorge R. Frank
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:36 pm Post subject: Re: Soyuz to be fixed at Space Station |
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Alan Erskine wrote:
[quote]"Jorge R. Frank" <jrfrank@ibm-pc.borg> wrote in message
news:g9GdnbqSPpfgwPvVnZ2dnUVZ_srinZ2d@giganews.com...
Alan Erskine wrote:
"Brian Gaff" <Briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ANr9k.17278$E41.11307@text.news.virginmedia.com...
Hmm, time was that anyone fiddling with bolts that had any pyro devices
associated with them was a no no for flight crew. Are we saying that
these are definitely categorically safe to fiddle with?
No. It shows how desparate they are to fix it.
Stated another way, they consider the risk incurred by the cosmonauts
fiddling with the pyrobolts is less than the risk incurred by performing
the next Soyuz entry without inspecting the bolts.
Have the crew trained for such a thing? I wouldn>t have thought they>d have
the right tools for removal either as it>s a rather specialised device.
[/quote]
The tools were brought up on the most recent Progress. |
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Alan Erskine
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:20 am Post subject: Re: Soyuz to be fixed at Space Station |
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"Jorge R. Frank" <jrfrank@ibm-pc.borg> wrote in message
news:YOOdncRJH-kGGfvVnZ2dnUVZWhednZ2d@giganews.com...
[quote]The tools were brought up on the most recent Progress.
[/quote]
What about the training? That>s got to be tough. |
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nmp
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:36 am Post subject: Re: Soyuz to be fixed at Space Station |
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Jorge R. Frank wrote:
[quote]Alan Erskine wrote:
"Jorge R. Frank" <jrfrank@ibm-pc.borg> wrote in message
news:g9GdnbqSPpfgwPvVnZ2dnUVZ_srinZ2d@giganews.com...
Alan Erskine wrote:
"Brian Gaff" <Briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ANr9k.17278$E41.11307@text.news.virginmedia.com...
Hmm, time was that anyone fiddling with bolts that had any pyro
devices associated with them was a no no for flight crew. Are we
saying that these are definitely categorically safe to fiddle with?
No. It shows how desparate they are to fix it.
Stated another way, they consider the risk incurred by the cosmonauts
fiddling with the pyrobolts is less than the risk incurred by
performing the next Soyuz entry without inspecting the bolts.
Have the crew trained for such a thing? I wouldn>t have thought they>d
have the right tools for removal either as it>s a rather specialised
device.
The tools were brought up on the most recent Progress.
[/quote]
It>s almost beginning to sound like a safe and sensible operation.
"Oh it>s just one of those things..."
Let>s hope for the best. |
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Greg D. Moore (Strider)
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:14 am Post subject: Re: Soyuz to be fixed at Space Station |
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"Jorge R. Frank" <jrfrank@ibm-pc.borg> wrote in message
news:g9GdnbqSPpfgwPvVnZ2dnUVZ_srinZ2d@giganews.com...
[quote]Alan Erskine wrote:
"Brian Gaff" <Briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ANr9k.17278$E41.11307@text.news.virginmedia.com...
Hmm, time was that anyone fiddling with bolts that had any pyro devices
associated with them was a no no for flight crew. Are we saying that
these are definitely categorically safe to fiddle with?
No. It shows how desparate they are to fix it.
Stated another way, they consider the risk incurred by the cosmonauts
fiddling with the pyrobolts is less than the risk incurred by performing
the next Soyuz entry without inspecting the bolts.
[/quote]
It does raise two interesting questions:
1) What happens if say there>s a detonation of the bolt while removing it.
Forget the danger to the cosmonaut for now. What happens if there>s damage
to the Soyuz? They>ve just mangled their ride home. Interesting position
to be in.
2) If I>m understanding the problem, Russia is saying they>ve had the same
problem on successive flights, namely a pyro NOT firing? As I recall this
is one area where the US program has a 100% safety record (at least in
manned craft).
If that>s the case, that>s a bit scary.
--
Greg Moore
SQL Server DBA Consulting Remote and Onsite available!
Email: sql (at) greenms.com http://www.greenms.com/sqlserver.html |
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John Doe
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: Soyuz to be fixed at Space Station |
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Big Picture question. I remember a former NASA employee having a nice
web site showing explosive bolts on the shuttle. Are the bolts bolted in
with the explosives already embedded, or are the bolts first tightened,
and then explosives added/injected ?
In the case of soyuz, I take it they would first cut the electrical
wires leading to the bolts ? Once this is done, would the bolts be
fairly safe to handle without much worry ? Will they want to ground
everything together to prevent risk of electrical discharge between
wrench, container and the bolt ?
Would it be correct to state that the cutting of the electrical wires
would be the most dangerous part since a charged scissor might introduce
a current when it comes into contact with the copper conductor ? (would
they have a plastic type of cutter for this job ?)
If they work in darkness (while the explosive would be much colder) does
this truly reduce the risk of detonation ?
[quote]No. It shows how desparate they are to fix it.
[/quote]
No, I think that theye are more aware of public scrutiny of their
programme and realise they can>t hide problems under the rug as much as
before. Once this issue became known to NASA, I think the russians had
no choice and couldn>t be seen allowing a deffective soyuz to come back
down.
I think it is great that Russsia would have the guts to plan this EVA.
If this isn>t as risky as it sounds, it may not be such a big deal.
The russian crew have a vested interest since they are coming down in
that craft. But one still wonders what they really think about the risks
involved in this EVA.
How much torque will be needed to unscrew that bolt ? |
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Brian Gaff
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: Soyuz to be fixed at Space Station |
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Maybe the bolts were made by the same person who made the on orbit spares
for the toilet? :-)
Brian
--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can>t hear them
Email: briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"Jorge R. Frank" <jrfrank@ibm-pc.borg> wrote in message
news:g9GdnbqSPpfgwPvVnZ2dnUVZ_srinZ2d@giganews.com...
[quote]Alan Erskine wrote:
"Brian Gaff" <Briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ANr9k.17278$E41.11307@text.news.virginmedia.com...
Hmm, time was that anyone fiddling with bolts that had any pyro devices
associated with them was a no no for flight crew. Are we saying that
these are definitely categorically safe to fiddle with?
No. It shows how desparate they are to fix it.
Stated another way, they consider the risk incurred by the cosmonauts
fiddling with the pyrobolts is less than the risk incurred by performing
the next Soyuz entry without inspecting the bolts.[/quote] |
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