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John Larkin
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 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:42 am Post subject: Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equi |
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On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:19:49 GMT, Rich Grise <rich@example.net> wrote:
[quote]On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, ronwer wrote:
I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
communication equipment during the Second World War.
Did they even _have_ silicon diodes in WWII? I remember when they
announced the first transistor, some time in the early 1950>s.
Thanks,
Rich
[/quote]
Yup. Most of the WWII radar diodes were silicon point-contact types,
Schottky diodes actually. The best 1943-vintage mixer parts were about
as good as any packaged schottky you can buy today... 0.2 Vf, 0.2 pF,
decent noise figures to 30 GHz.
The point-contact transistor was invented at Bell Labs in 1947. Most
of the relevant semiconductor theory - bandgaps, hole/electron
conduction, doping - was well understood by about 1940. The RadLab
guys didn>t develop a PN-junction diode or the transistor because
their mandate was to develop radar to win the war.
John |
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Don Klipstein
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:09 am Post subject: Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equi |
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In article <pd3t04l5i3gck6c4r87f0a51e2qr5hia0e@4ax.com>, JosephKK wrote:
[quote]On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 20:45:08 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
On 21 Apr 2008 03:03:32 GMT, JosephKK <quiettechblue@yahoo.com> wrote:
On 20 Apr 2008 13:59:36 -0700, Don Bowey <dbowey@comcast.net>wrote:
Do you have a solid reference for that? "Credible" references I found
said they were silicon.
The most conclusive evidence i know of, is someone here who actually
put one to test and the result was germanium. A heck of a lot of
"official" or "authoritative" records are pure fertilizer.
What test?
V(f) @ 1 mA. Result < 180 mV. Thus Ge, not Si.
[/quote]
I have seen silicon schottky diodes that drop about .3 volt at 1 amp.
- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com) |
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Don Klipstein
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:20 am Post subject: Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equi |
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In article <hr5t04l9866fsp3r3s3sqgjcasco3fv1gr@4ax.com>, JosephKK wrote:
[quote]On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:42:10 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:19:49 GMT, Rich Grise <rich@example.net> wrote:
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, ronwer wrote:
I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
communication equipment during the Second World War.
Did they even _have_ silicon diodes in WWII? I remember when they
announced the first transistor, some time in the early 1950>s.
Thanks,
Rich
Yup. Most of the WWII radar diodes were silicon point-contact types,
Schottky diodes actually. The best 1943-vintage mixer parts were about
as good as any packaged schottky you can buy today... 0.2 Vf, 0.2 pF,
decent noise figures to 30 GHz.
The point-contact transistor was invented at Bell Labs in 1947. Most
of the relevant semiconductor theory - bandgaps, hole/electron
conduction, doping - was well understood by about 1940. The RadLab
guys didn>t develop a PN-junction diode or the transistor because
their mandate was to develop radar to win the war.
John
Gee, John. Where do you get schottky diodes with V(f) below 0.2 V at
I(f) of 1 mA? All the ones i could find were over 0.33 V and mostly
0.4 to 0.5 V.
[/quote]
I am on a temporary setup now that does not have Acrobat, but I somewhat
remember Vishay-IR STPS1L30UPBF or 1N5818 dropping maybe .35 volt at 1
amp. These are 30 volt 1 amp Schottky rectifiers.
- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com) |
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Michael A. Terrell
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:57 am Post subject: Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equi |
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John Fields wrote:
[quote]
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:22:58 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
John Fields wrote:
BTW, for some reason I>m prohibited from accessing the Rad Lab series
via:
http://www.jlab.org/ir/MITSeries.html
so would you be so kind as to post the text referring explicitly to
the 1N23 and relevant deployment dating?
John, you missed the note at the top of that page:
Note: These volumes are only accessable on site at Jefferson Lab.
---
Right. Thanks, :-)
JF
[/quote]
Talk about greed!!
http://www.artechhouse.com/default.asp?Frame=Book.asp&Book=1-58053-078-8&Country=&Continent=SA&State=
Price $ 403.00 USD
--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html
Use any search engine other than Google till they stop polluting USENET
with porn and junk commercial SPAM
If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
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Michael A. Terrell
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:02 am Post subject: Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equi |
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John Larkin wrote:
[quote]
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 12:22:58 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
John Fields wrote:
BTW, for some reason I>m prohibited from accessing the Rad Lab series
via:
http://www.jlab.org/ir/MITSeries.html
so would you be so kind as to post the text referring explicitly to
the 1N23 and relevant deployment dating?
John, you missed the note at the top of that page:
Note: These volumes are only accessable on site at Jefferson Lab.
Jlab (used to be CEBAF) has a 1/4 mile racetrack electron accelerator,
pumped by klystrons driving cool shiny superconductive cavities with
megavolt-per-meter fields and Q>s like 1e8 or something. Their site
has some interesting stuff. We did the electronics that measures all
the liquid helium temperatures and levels, and the microsteppers that
tume the cavities. That was probably the last major CAMAC installation
anywhere.
[/quote]
That sounds like a great set for a Sci-Fi movie. ;-)
--
http://improve-usenet.org/index.html
Use any search engine other than Google till they stop polluting USENET
with porn and junk commercial SPAM
If you have broadband, your ISP may have a NNTP news server included in
your account: http://www.usenettools.net/ISP.htm |
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Joel Koltner
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:09 am Post subject: Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equi |
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"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Q7KdnR_cpZrNwpPVnZ2dnUVZ_g-dnZ2d@earthlink.com...
[quote]Talk about greed!!
http://www.artechhouse.com/default.asp?Frame=Book.asp&Book=1-58053-078-8&Country=&Continent=SA&State=
Price $ 403.00 USD
[/quote]
Artech has never been cheap. :-) At this price, I think they figure they>re
appealing mainly to University technical libraries and perhaps some larger
companies' internal corporate libraries... or perhaps they>re thinking the
market for such historical documents is quite limited, thus "necessitating"
the higher price to cover their costs? |
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John Fields
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:55 am Post subject: Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equi |
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On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:42:10 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
[quote]On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:19:49 GMT, Rich Grise <rich@example.net> wrote:
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, ronwer wrote:
I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
communication equipment during the Second World War.
Did they even _have_ silicon diodes in WWII? I remember when they
announced the first transistor, some time in the early 1950>s.
Thanks,
Rich
Yup. Most of the WWII radar diodes were silicon point-contact types,
Schottky diodes actually. The best 1943-vintage mixer parts were about
as good as any packaged schottky you can buy today... 0.2 Vf, 0.2 pF,
decent noise figures to 30 GHz.
The point-contact transistor was invented at Bell Labs in 1947. Most
of the relevant semiconductor theory - bandgaps, hole/electron
conduction, doping - was well understood by about 1940. The RadLab
guys didn>t develop a PN-junction diode or the transistor because
their mandate was to develop radar to win the war.
[/quote]
---
John, I must say you>re simply amazing!
Being able to postdict the butterfly effect is a gift few of us have.
JF |
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JosephKK
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:17 am Post subject: Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equi |
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On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 20:45:08 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
[quote]On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 03:03:32 GMT, JosephKK <quiettechblue@yahoo.com
wrote:
On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:59:36 -0700, Don Bowey <dbowey@comcast.net
wrote:
On 4/20/08 11:26 AM, in article am2n04hciv1c0trs9vmfala4pf78ic80nb@4ax.com,
"JosephKK" <quiettechblue@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:29:18 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:24:19 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, "ronwer"
neo.dymium.removethisfirst@dontwantspam.yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi!
I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
communication equipment during the Second World War.
What I would be interested in is as follows:
-type numbers of the diodes
---
1N23 is a good place to start.
---
Oops... brain fart.
The 1N23 didn>t appear until the '50>s, I believe.
JF
Not only that it was germanium not silicon.
Do you have a solid reference for that? "Credible" references I found said
they were silicon.
The most conclusive evidence i know of, is someone here who actually
put one to test and the result was germanium. A heck of a lot of
"official" or "authoritative" records are pure fertilizer.
What test?
John
[/quote]
V(f) @ 1 mA. Result < 180 mV. Thus Ge, not Si. |
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JosephKK
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equi |
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On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 09:28:11 -0500, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
[quote]On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 03:03:32 GMT, JosephKK <quiettechblue@yahoo.com
wrote:
On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:59:36 -0700, Don Bowey <dbowey@comcast.net
wrote:
Do you have a solid reference for that? "Credible" references I found said
they were silicon.
The most conclusive evidence i know of, is someone here who actually
put one to test and the result was germanium. A heck of a lot of
"official" or "authoritative" records are pure fertilizer.
---
Can you spell "Schottky?"
JF
[/quote]
Certainly. 1N23s that i had were Ge also. Lost them on some move. |
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JosephKK
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:00 am Post subject: Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equi |
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On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:42:10 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
[quote]On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:19:49 GMT, Rich Grise <rich@example.net> wrote:
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, ronwer wrote:
I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
communication equipment during the Second World War.
Did they even _have_ silicon diodes in WWII? I remember when they
announced the first transistor, some time in the early 1950>s.
Thanks,
Rich
Yup. Most of the WWII radar diodes were silicon point-contact types,
Schottky diodes actually. The best 1943-vintage mixer parts were about
as good as any packaged schottky you can buy today... 0.2 Vf, 0.2 pF,
decent noise figures to 30 GHz.
The point-contact transistor was invented at Bell Labs in 1947. Most
of the relevant semiconductor theory - bandgaps, hole/electron
conduction, doping - was well understood by about 1940. The RadLab
guys didn>t develop a PN-junction diode or the transistor because
their mandate was to develop radar to win the war.
John
[/quote]
Gee, John. Where do you get schottky diodes with V(f) below 0.2 V at
I(f) of 1 mA? All the ones i could find were over 0.33 V and mostly
0.4 to 0.5 V. |
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John Larkin
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:04 am Post subject: Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equi |
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On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:17:10 -0700, JosephKK <quiettechblue@yahoo.com>
wrote:
[quote]On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 20:45:08 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 03:03:32 GMT, JosephKK <quiettechblue@yahoo.com
wrote:
On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:59:36 -0700, Don Bowey <dbowey@comcast.net
wrote:
On 4/20/08 11:26 AM, in article am2n04hciv1c0trs9vmfala4pf78ic80nb@4ax.com,
"JosephKK" <quiettechblue@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:29:18 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:24:19 -0500, John Fields
jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, "ronwer"
neo.dymium.removethisfirst@dontwantspam.yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi!
I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
communication equipment during the Second World War.
What I would be interested in is as follows:
-type numbers of the diodes
---
1N23 is a good place to start.
---
Oops... brain fart.
The 1N23 didn>t appear until the '50>s, I believe.
JF
Not only that it was germanium not silicon.
Do you have a solid reference for that? "Credible" references I found said
they were silicon.
The most conclusive evidence i know of, is someone here who actually
put one to test and the result was germanium. A heck of a lot of
"official" or "authoritative" records are pure fertilizer.
What test?
John
V(f) @ 1 mA. Result < 180 mV. Thus Ge, not Si.
[/quote]
Here are some curves from the RadLab book:
ftp://66.117.156.8/RadLabDiodes.JPG
ftp://66.117.156.8/RadDiode2.JPG
Your data point is dead on the point-contact Silicon diode curve.
John |
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John Larkin
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:16 am Post subject: Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equi |
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On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:55:18 -0500, John Fields
<jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:
[quote]On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:42:10 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:19:49 GMT, Rich Grise <rich@example.net> wrote:
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, ronwer wrote:
I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
communication equipment during the Second World War.
Did they even _have_ silicon diodes in WWII? I remember when they
announced the first transistor, some time in the early 1950>s.
Thanks,
Rich
Yup. Most of the WWII radar diodes were silicon point-contact types,
Schottky diodes actually. The best 1943-vintage mixer parts were about
as good as any packaged schottky you can buy today... 0.2 Vf, 0.2 pF,
decent noise figures to 30 GHz.
The point-contact transistor was invented at Bell Labs in 1947. Most
of the relevant semiconductor theory - bandgaps, hole/electron
conduction, doping - was well understood by about 1940. The RadLab
guys didn>t develop a PN-junction diode or the transistor because
their mandate was to develop radar to win the war.
---
John, I must say you>re simply amazing!
Being able to postdict the butterfly effect is a gift few of us have.
JF
[/quote]
One of the MIT books says that "a semiconductor triode should be
possible." But that wasn>t their mandate. The RadLab was disbanded in
late 1945.
John |
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John Larkin
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:40 am Post subject: Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equi |
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On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:00:35 -0700, JosephKK <quiettechblue@yahoo.com>
wrote:
[quote]On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:42:10 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
On Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:19:49 GMT, Rich Grise <rich@example.net> wrote:
On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, ronwer wrote:
I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
communication equipment during the Second World War.
Did they even _have_ silicon diodes in WWII? I remember when they
announced the first transistor, some time in the early 1950>s.
Thanks,
Rich
Yup. Most of the WWII radar diodes were silicon point-contact types,
Schottky diodes actually. The best 1943-vintage mixer parts were about
as good as any packaged schottky you can buy today... 0.2 Vf, 0.2 pF,
decent noise figures to 30 GHz.
The point-contact transistor was invented at Bell Labs in 1947. Most
of the relevant semiconductor theory - bandgaps, hole/electron
conduction, doping - was well understood by about 1940. The RadLab
guys didn>t develop a PN-junction diode or the transistor because
their mandate was to develop radar to win the war.
John
Gee, John. Where do you get schottky diodes with V(f) below 0.2 V at
I(f) of 1 mA? All the ones i could find were over 0.33 V and mostly
0.4 to 0.5 V.
[/quote]
This is a silicon point-contact diode, essentially the same as the
WWII parts, expect that they get to use modern, very pure silicon:
http://www.micrometrics.com/pdfs/PC_SXBandMixer.pdf
Skyworks makes some very low capacitance (below 0.5 pF) schottkies
that are similar.
This is 300 mV *max* at 100 mA, so should be down there. I think the
schottky curve is sorta similar to the silicon PN curve, which is 60
mV per decade of current.
http://www.centralsemi.com/PDFs/products/CMHSH5-2L.PDF
I posted some WWII diode curves elsewhere, well under 200 mV at 1 mA.
Gee.
John |
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Phil Allison
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:53 am Post subject: Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equi |
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"JosephKKK Lunatic & Congenital LIAR "
[quote]
Gee, John. Where do you get schottky diodes with V(f) below 0.2 V at
I(f) of 1 mA? All the ones i could find were over 0.33 V and mostly
0.4 to 0.5 V.
[/quote]
** Examples tested:
BAT46 = 0.261 V @ 1mA
MBR745 = 0.194 V @ 1mA
For comparison
AAZ15 (Ge) = 0.230 V @ 1 mA
The 1N23 ( Silicon point contact) is 0.25 V @ 1mA
http://pdf1.alldatasheet.net/datasheet-pdf/view/121948/ETC/1N23.html
....... Phil |
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Baron
Guest
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: Si-diodes in Second World War radar & Communication equi |
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Rich Grise inscribed thus:
[quote]On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:51:10 +0200, ronwer wrote:
I am doing a study into the early use of silicon diodes in radar and
communication equipment during the Second World War.
Did they even _have_ silicon diodes in WWII? I remember when they
announced the first transistor, some time in the early 1950>s.
Thanks,
Rich
[/quote]
Yes ! I have some devices that were made in the mid to late 40>s.
Also if I can find them I have some pre war point contact detectors that
have screw terminals on the ends.
Baron. |
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