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There is a well known idea that if you could put billions of monkeys
onto billions of typewriters, and keep them typing away, then
eventually, just by chance, they would produce the complete works of
Shakespeare.

Now that has always struck me as a cute idea, but not true, because I
estimate the probability of turning out several thousand characters in a
specific order is vanishingly small, and would therefore require more
monkeys and typewriters than there are atoms in the universe. (I have
not actually made that calculation, however.)

Of course there are other difficulties which make that project
impossible anyway, such as the difficulty of getting the monkeys to
cooperate, where to put all those typewriters, how to feed them all, and
how to get rid of all the monkey poop. You would also have to have
computers scanning all the output and comparing them with the known
works of Shakespeare to see if they actually did it. Hence it has always
been clear to me that this is just a fantasy.

But recently I had the thunderous realization that this experiment has
already actually been performed! And what is more, the monkeys
succeeded, eventually producing the complete works of Shakespeare!
Furthermore, the typewriters were not even necessary. The monkeys fed
themselves and took care of their own housekeeping. They mostly had fun
performing this experiment, even though it took many millions of years.
Their primary tools were their reproductive organs, which they generally
enjoy using.

By now, dear reader, you have probably figured out that I>m referring to
the process of evolution, acting on the primates of 100 million years
ago. To call them monkeys is not exactly accurate; they were the
precursors of today>s apes, monkey, and humans. But one of their
descendants, all by himself, produced the complete works of Shakespeare.
He was, of course, William Shakespeare.

Soon afterwards, the same process produced the typewriter!

Mitchell Timin

--
"Many are stubborn in pursuit of the path they have chosen, few in
pursuit of the goal." - Friedrich Nietzsche

http://annevolve.sourceforge.net is what I>m into nowadays.
Humans may write to me at this address: zenguy at shaw dot ca

William Morse · Guest

SeeBelow@SeeBelow.Nut wrote in news:btcpc6$b0q$1@darwin.ediacara.org:

[quote]There is a well known idea that if you could put billions of monkeys
onto billions of typewriters, and keep them typing away, then
eventually, just by chance, they would produce the complete works of
Shakespeare.

Now that has always struck me as a cute idea, but not true, because I
estimate the probability of turning out several thousand characters in
a specific order is vanishingly small, and would therefore require
more monkeys and typewriters than there are atoms in the universe. (I
have not actually made that calculation, however.)

Of course there are other difficulties which make that project
impossible anyway, such as the difficulty of getting the monkeys to
cooperate, where to put all those typewriters, how to feed them all,
and how to get rid of all the monkey poop. You would also have to have
computers scanning all the output and comparing them with the known
works of Shakespeare to see if they actually did it. Hence it has
always been clear to me that this is just a fantasy.

But recently I had the thunderous realization that this experiment has
already actually been performed! And what is more, the monkeys
succeeded, eventually producing the complete works of Shakespeare!
Furthermore, the typewriters were not even necessary. The monkeys fed
themselves and took care of their own housekeeping. They mostly had
fun performing this experiment, even though it took many millions of
years. Their primary tools were their reproductive organs, which they
generally enjoy using.

By now, dear reader, you have probably figured out that I>m referring
to the process of evolution, acting on the primates of 100 million
years ago. To call them monkeys is not exactly accurate; they were the
precursors of today>s apes, monkey, and humans. But one of their
descendants, all by himself, produced the complete works of
Shakespeare. He was, of course, William Shakespeare.

Soon afterwards, the same process produced the typewriter!
[/quote]
Dawkins has already used the monkey example to illustrate evolution in
"Climbing Mount Improbable", IIRC. His point was not exactly the same as
yours - he was showing that if you started off with monkey babble, but
then chose only those monkey passages that resembled Shakespeare (his
stand-in for selection), and proceeded with additional random
variations on the Shakespearean-like passages, you could produce
Shakespeare (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) in a much shorter period
of time than with random monkeys.

But actually a far more interesting take on this can be found in Daniel
Dennett>s "Darwins Dangerous Idea", in the chapter that is a takeoff on
Borges conceit of the Library of Babel. This combines Borges' rather
mind-boggling conception of infinite infinitesimal variation on a
literary theme with the idea of how evolution can explore many
possibilities to arrive at masterpieces such as Shakespeare. Since you
seem to have independently realized several of these concepts (I myself
am good at realizing concepts - after others have pointed them out to
me), I think you might enjoy Dennett>s take on them.

Yours,

Bill Morse

Guest

William Morse wrote:

<snip>

[quote]Dawkins has already used the monkey example to illustrate evolution in
"Climbing Mount Improbable", IIRC. His point was not exactly the same as
yours - he was showing that if you started off with monkey babble, but
then chose only those monkey passages that resembled Shakespeare (his
stand-in for selection), and proceeded with additional random
variations on the Shakespearean-like passages, you could produce
Shakespeare (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) in a much shorter period
of time than with random monkeys.
[/quote]
This would cause monkey talk (which is purposeful and goal directed) to
evolve a literary capacity as well. Maybe this actually happened,
because a literary speech talent probably gives a selective advantage in
seducing monkeys of the opposite sex. So there probably has been, and
continues to be, sexual selection for speech of literary quality.

<snip>

Mitchell Timin

--
"Many are stubborn in pursuit of the path they have chosen, few in
pursuit of the goal." - Friedrich Nietzsche

http://annevolve.sourceforge.net is what I>m into nowadays.
Humans may write to me at this address: zenguy at shaw dot ca

TomHendricks474 · Guest

<< But actually a far more interesting take on this can be found in Daniel
Dennett>s "Darwins Dangerous Idea", in the chapter that is a takeoff on
Borges conceit of the Library of Babel. This combines Borges' rather
mind-boggling conception of infinite infinitesimal variation on a
literary theme with the idea of how evolution can explore many
possibilities to arrive at masterpieces such as Shakespeare. >>

TH
I think everything Shakespeare said or anyone says or does can be based on one
of four basic thoughts or goals or directions or life processes.
I encourage anyone to try to find any Shakespeare passage that doesn>t fit in
one of these 4 options:

1. doesn>t have - but wants
2. doesn>t have - but does not want

3. has - wants
4. has - doesn>t want

And all these can be based on first life processes when a cell structure
(outside the membrane, inside the membrane) is set up. In essence everything of
life can be reduced to 'food in/waste out'

Phil Roberts Jr · Guest

TomHendricks474 wrote:

[quote]
TH
I think everything Shakespeare said or anyone says or does can be based on one
of four basic thoughts or goals or directions or life processes.
I encourage anyone to try to find any Shakespeare passage that doesn>t fit in
one of these 4 options:

1. doesn>t have - but wants
2. doesn>t have - but does not want
[/quote]

How about the need for self-esteem?

Virtually all psychologists recognize that man experiences a need
of self-esteem. But what they have not identified is the nature
of self-esteem, the reasons why man need it, and the conditions he
must satisfy if he is to achieve it. Virtually all psychologists
recognize, if only vaguely, that there is some relationship
between the degree of a man>s self-esteem and the degree of his
mental health. But they have not identified the nature of that
relationship, nor the causes of it. Virtually all psychologists
recognize, if only dimly, that there is some relationship between
the nature and degree of a man>s self-esteem and his motivation,
i.e., his behavior in the spheres of work, love and human
relationships. But they have not explained why, nor identified
the principle involved. (Nathaniel Branden).

PR

Brett Aubrey · Guest

<SeeBelow@SeeBelow.Nut> wrote in message
news:btcpc6$b0q$1@darwin.ediacara.org...
[quote]There is a well known idea that if you could put billions of monkeys
onto billions of typewriters, and keep them typing away, then
eventually, just by chance, they would produce the complete
works of Shakespeare.
Now that has always struck me as a cute idea, but not true, because I
estimate the probability of turning out several thousand characters in a
specific order is vanishingly small, and would therefore require more
monkeys and typewriters than there are atoms in the universe. (I have
not actually made that calculation, however.) < snip
[/quote]
When yer right, yer right - this idea doesn>t work as proponents might have
guessed. I recalled a recent experiment to investigate it, and a central
problem was that that there was not an appropriate degree of randomness with
the monkeys - they tended to repetitively hit just a few keys in similarly
ordered patterns, as opposed to depth and breadth of keystrokes and
keystroke combinations needed to turn out anything meaningful. IIRC, the
monkeys failed to produce "a single word" (which presumabley meant something
more complex than < a >.) Regards, Brett.

[quote]Mitchell Timin

--
"Many are stubborn in pursuit of the path they have chosen,
few in pursuit of the goal." - Friedrich Nietzsche

http://annevolve.sourceforge.net is what I>m into nowadays.
Humans may write to me at this address: zenguy at shaw dot ca
[/quote]


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