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Guest

On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 02:54:32 GMT, Dutch <no@email.com> wrote:

[quote]dh@. wrote:
On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 18:54:55 GMT, Dutch <no@email.com> wrote:

dh@. wrote:
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 01:24:04 GMT, Dutch <no@email.com> wrote:

dh@. wrote:
On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 08:47:19 GMT, Dutch <no@email.com> wrote:

dh@. wrote:
On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 19:56:21 GMT, Dutch <no@email.com> wrote:
Hence the two agendas coexist.
Try to explain how I could believe you are too stupid to understand
the fact that eliminating livestock would prevent people from being
able to provide decent lives for livestock.
Wanting to eliminate livestock doesn>t actually eliminate all livestock,
If they were successful, eliminating them would.
But it doesn>t,
Since it obviously would, why do you want to try to convince
people that it would not?
I>m not, I>m saying that it isn>t having that effect and that it never
will. Why are you trying to claim that people can>t be ARAs, desire the
elimination of livestock, and advocate better AW at the same time?

Why do you think other people should think it would be ethically
superior to eliminate livestock as an alternative to providing them
with lives of positive value, Goo/Boo?

Because I prefer it to the mindless slobbering you have chosen in it>s
place.
[/quote]
That>s just making noise, little Booger. You need to explain why
you think elimination is superior to decent AW. GO:

Dutch · Guest

dh@. wrote:
[quote]On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 02:54:32 GMT, Dutch <no@email.com> wrote:

dh@. wrote:
On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 18:54:55 GMT, Dutch <no@email.com> wrote:

dh@. wrote:
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 01:24:04 GMT, Dutch <no@email.com> wrote:

dh@. wrote:
On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 08:47:19 GMT, Dutch <no@email.com> wrote:

dh@. wrote:
On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 19:56:21 GMT, Dutch <no@email.com> wrote:
Hence the two agendas coexist.
Try to explain how I could believe you are too stupid to understand
the fact that eliminating livestock would prevent people from being
able to provide decent lives for livestock.
Wanting to eliminate livestock doesn>t actually eliminate all livestock,
If they were successful, eliminating them would.
But it doesn>t,
Since it obviously would, why do you want to try to convince
people that it would not?
I>m not, I>m saying that it isn>t having that effect and that it never
will. Why are you trying to claim that people can>t be ARAs, desire the
elimination of livestock, and advocate better AW at the same time?
Why do you think other people should think it would be ethically
superior to eliminate livestock as an alternative to providing them
with lives of positive value, Goo/Boo?
Because I prefer it to the mindless slobbering you have chosen in it>s
place.

That>s just making noise, little Booger. You need to explain why
you think elimination is superior to decent AW.
[/quote]
No pea-brain, you need to explain why you think we can attack vegans for
not wanting livestock to "experience life". What makes you think that
means anything?

Phred · Guest

In article <1191125919.893164.284560@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Ferd Farkel <frdfrkl@yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote]On Sep 27, 8:42 am, Buddy <why.wood.yew@bother> wrote:
here>s Malcolm Manners>s last post ->:> Hi folks, I teach an introductory
plant science course to college
freshmen, and one of the labs that they do is various forms of
scarification of hard seeds (hot water, acid, physical abrasion, etc.).
We>ve always used Albizia julibrissin, with excellent success. But
this year, the seed weevils have destroyed nearly all the Albizia seeds
on the local trees -- good, perhaps, from the standpoint of slowing it
as an invasive weed, but also harmful to my lab. So I>m in search of
another source -- a different species would be fine -- of seeds that I
could purchase. Are any of you aware of a USA commercial source of some
fairly large-seeded hard seed species in lots of around a pound or two?

I understand that Lupinus (lupines) are hard seeds that sometimes
require scarification. They grow wild in New England and perhaps
they were serve your needs.

Western lupines need fire to germinate.
[/quote]
Do they *need* fire, or just heat? On the other hand, maybe it>s just
the smoke.

Many Australian native species were said to "need fire" to germinate,
and they certainly come up thickly following a bush fire; but research
in fairly recent years has shown that it>s the chemicals in the smoke
rather than fire _per se_ that stimulate germination.

For small scale propagation people are now using smoked water with
good effect. <http://www.cpbr.gov.au/PROPGATE/latest.htm>

For detail on effects on species (not all species respond well) and
methods of application:
<http://asgap.org.au/APOL2/jun96-6.html>

There>s plenty more stuff out there (just google "smoke seed
germination site:.au" [without the quotes] for example) but if you
prefer hard copy, seek out of one the seminal papers, such as:

Dixon K.W, Roche S and Pate J.S (1995). The promotive effect of smoke
derived from burnt native vegetation on seed germination of Western
Australian plants. _Oecologia_ 101: 185-192

Cheers, Phred.

--
ppnerkDELETE@THISyahoo.com.INVALID

Father Haskell · Guest

On Sep 30, 11:03 am, ppnerkDELETET...@yahoo.com (Phred) wrote:
[quote]In article <1191125919.893164.284...@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Ferd Farkel <frdf...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Sep 27, 8:42 am, Buddy <why.wood.yew@bother> wrote:
here>s Malcolm Manners>s last post ->:> Hi folks, I teach an introductory
plant science course to college
freshmen, and one of the labs that they do is various forms of
scarification of hard seeds (hot water, acid, physical abrasion, etc.).
We>ve always used Albizia julibrissin, with excellent success. But
this year, the seed weevils have destroyed nearly all the Albizia seeds
on the local trees -- good, perhaps, from the standpoint of slowing it
as an invasive weed, but also harmful to my lab. So I>m in search of
another source -- a different species would be fine -- of seeds that I
could purchase. Are any of you aware of a USA commercial source of some
fairly large-seeded hard seed species in lots of around a pound or two?

I understand that Lupinus (lupines) are hard seeds that sometimes
require scarification. They grow wild in New England and perhaps
they were serve your needs.

Western lupines need fire to germinate.

Do they *need* fire, or just heat? On the other hand, maybe it>s just
the smoke.
[/quote]
They need the fire or some other agent to split their hulls. Home
gardeners use a nail file.

[quote]Many Australian native species were said to "need fire" to germinate,
and they certainly come up thickly following a bush fire; but research
in fairly recent years has shown that it>s the chemicals in the smoke
rather than fire _per se_ that stimulate germination.

For small scale propagation people are now using smoked water with
good effect. <http://www.cpbr.gov.au/PROPGATE/latest.htm
[/quote]
I knew bongwater was good for something.

[quote]For detail on effects on species (not all species respond well) and
methods of application:
http://asgap.org.au/APOL2/jun96-6.html

There>s plenty more stuff out there (just google "smoke seed
germination site:.au" [without the quotes] for example) but if you
prefer hard copy, seek out of one the seminal papers, such as:

Dixon K.W, Roche S and Pate J.S (1995). The promotive effect of smoke
derived from burnt native vegetation on seed germination of Western
Australian plants. _Oecologia_ 101: 185-192

Cheers, Phred.

--
ppnerkDEL...@THISyahoo.com.INVALID
[/quote]
Interesting.

pearl · Guest

----- Original Message -----
From: [InfoNature.Org] - E-News
To: _ Protect Nature, Animals and People _
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 9:20 PM
Subject: [InfoNature.Org - INT]: Eating MEAT and using
BIOFUELS becomes an international disaster.

EATING *MEAT* , USING *BIOFUELS* AND *CLIMATE
CHANGE* BECOMES AN INTERNATIONAL *DISASTER*
ON ALL LEVELS

DUE TO PRODUCING MEATS AND BIOFUELS, THE
FOOD PRICES ARE RISING, FOOD STOCKS ARE
LOWER, HUNGER PROBLEMS ARE INCREASING AND
THE PLANET IS BEING DESTROYED

LEARN WHAT YOU CAN DO TO HELP STOP THIS:
http://www.eco-gaia.net/forum-pt/index.php/topic,203.0.html
Make a positive change: Go vegetarian, use public transports
and bicycles

World food stocks dwindling rapidly, UN warns:
ROME - (Reuters): In an "unforeseen and unprecedented" shift,
the world food supply is dwindling rapidly and food prices are
soaring to historic levels, the top food and agriculture official of
the United Nations warned Monday. *The changes created "a
very serious risk that fewer people will be able to get food,"
particularly in the developing world*, said Jacques Diouf, head
of the UN Food and Agriculture Organization. *The agency>s
food price index rose by more than 40 percent this year,
compared with 9 percent the year before - a rate that was already
unacceptable*, he said. New figures show that the total cost of
foodstuffs imported by the neediest countries rose 25 percent,
to $107 million, in the last year.

*At the same time, reserves of cereals are severely depleted*, FAO
records show. World wheat stores declined 11 percent this year, to
the lowest level since 1980. That corresponds to 12 weeks of the
world>s total consumption - much less than the average of 18 weeks
consumption in storage during the period 2000-2005. There are
only 8 weeks of corn left, down from 11 weeks in the earlier period.
*Prices of wheat and oilseeds are at record highs*, Diouf said
Monday. Wheat prices have risen by $130 per ton, or 52 percent,
since a year ago. U.S. wheat futures broke $10 a bushel for the
first time Monday, the agricultural equivalent of $100 a barrel oil.
(Page 16)

*Diouf blamed a confluence of recent supply and demand factors
for the crisis, and he predicted that those factors were here to stay.
On the supply side, these include the early effects of global warming,
which has decreased crop yields in some crucial places, and a shift
away from farming for human consumption toward crops for
biofuels and cattle feed.* Demand for grain is increasing with the
world population, and more is *diverted to feed cattle as the
population of upwardly mobile meat-eaters grows. "We>re concerned
that we are facing the perfect storm for the world>s hungry,"* said
Josette Sheeran, executive director of the World Food Program, in
a telephone interview. She said that her agency>s food procurement
costs had gone up 50 percent in the past 5 years and that some poor
people are being "priced out of the food market."

To make matters worse, high oil prices have doubled shipping costs
in the past year, putting *enormous stress on poor nations that need
to import food as well as the humanitarian agencies that provide it.*
"You can debate why this is all happening, but what>s most important
to us is that it>s a long-term trend, reversing decades of decreasing
food prices," Sheeran said. *Climate specialists say that the
vulnerability will only increase as further effects of climate change
are felt*. "If there>s a significant change in climate in one of our high
production areas, if there is a disease that effects a major crop, we
are in a very risky situation," said Mark Howden of the
Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization in
Canberra.

*Already "unusual weather events," linked to climate change - such
as droughts, floods and storms - have decreased production in
important exporting countries* like Australia and Ukraine, Diouf said.
In Southern Australia, a significant reduction in rainfall in the past
few years led some farmers to sell their land and move to Tasmania,
where water is more reliable, said Howden, one of the authors of a
recent series of papers in the Procedings of the National Academy
of Sciences on climate change and the world food supply.

"In the U.S., Australia, and Europe, there>s a very substantial
capacity to adapt to the effects on food - with money, technology,
research and development," Howden said. "In the developing
world, there isn>t." Sheeran said, that *on a recent trip to Mali,
she was told that food stocks were at an all time low. The World
Food Program feeds millions of children in schools and people
with HIV/AIDS. Poor nutrition in these groups increased the risk
serious disease and death.*

Diouf suggested that all countries and international agencies would
have to "revisit" agricultural and aid policies they had adopted "in
a different economic environment." For example, with food and
oil prices approaching record, it may not make sense to send food
aid to poorer countries, but instead to *focus on helping farmers
grow food locally*. FAO plans to start a new initiative that will
offer farmers in poor countries vouchers that can be redeemed
for seeds and fertilizer, and will try to help them adapt to climate
change. The recent scientific papers concluded that farmers could
adjust to 1 degree Celsius (1.8 degrees Fahrenheit) to 3 degrees
Celsius (5.4 degrees) of warming by switching to more resilient
species, changing planting times, or storing water for irrigation,
for example.

But that after that, "all bets are off," said Francesco Tubiello, of
Columbia University Earth Institute. "Many people assume that
we will never have a problem with food production on a global
scale, but there is a strong potential for negative surprises." In
Europe, officials said they were already adjusting policies to the
reality of higher prices. The European Union recently suspended
a "set-aside" of land for next year - a longstanding program that
essentially paid farmers to leave 10 percent of their land untilled
as a way to increase farm prices and reduce surpluses. Also,
*starting in January, import tariffs on all cereal will be eliminated
for six months, to make it easier for European countries to buy
grain from elsewhere. But that may make it even harder for poor
countries to obtain the grain they need*.

*In an effort to promote free markets, the European Union has
been in the process of reducing farm subsidies and this has
accelerated the process.* "It>s much easier to do with the new
economics," said Michael Mann a spokesman for the EU
agriculture commission. "We saw this coming to a certain extent,
but we are surprised at how quickly it is happening." But he
noted that farm prices the last few decades have been lower than
at any time in history, so the change seems extremely dramatic.
Diouf noted that there had been "tension and political unrest
related to food markets" in a number of poor countries this
year, including Morocco, Senegal and Mauritania. *"We need
to play a catalytic role to quickly boost crop production in the
most affected countries,"* he said.

*Part of the current problem is an outgrowth of prosperity. More
people in the world now eat meat, diverting grain from humans to
livestock. A more complicated issue is the use of crops to make
biofuels, which are often heavily subsidized. A major factor in
rising corn prices globally is that many farmers in the United
States are now selling their corn to make subsidized ethanol.
Mann said the European Union had intentionally set low targets
for biofuel use - 10 per cent by 2020 - to limit food price rises
and that it plans to import some biofuel. "We don>t want all our
farmers switching from food to biofuel,"* he said.

Source: http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/12/17/europe/food.php

* * *

Food and Fuel compete for land:

Shopping at a Whole Foods Market in suburban Chicago, Meredith
Estes said food prices have jumped so much she has resorted to
coupons. Charles Rodgers Jr., an Arkansas cattle rancher, said
normal feed rations so expensive and scarce he is scrambling for
alternatives. In Oregon, Jack Joyce, the owner of Rogue Ales, said
the cost of barley malt has soared 88 percent this year.

For years, cheap food and feed were taken for granted in the
United States. But now the price of some foods is rising sharply,
and from the corridors of Washington to the aisles of neighborhood
supermarkets, a blame alert is under way. Among the favorite targets
is ethanol, especially for food manufacturers and livestock farmers
who seethe at government mandates for ethanol production. The
ethanol boom, they contend, is raising corn prices, driving up the
cost of producing dairy products and meat, and causing farmers
to plant so much corn as to crowd out other crops. The results are
working their way through the marketplace, in this view, with overall
consumer grocery costs up roughly 5 percent in a year and feed
costs up more than 20 percent.

Now, with Congress poised to adopt a new mandate that would
double the volume of ethanol made from corn, ethanol skeptics
say a fateful moment has arrived, with the nation about to commit
itself to decades of competition between food and fuel for the
use of agricultural land. "This is like a runaway freight train," said
Scott Faber, a lobbyist for the Grocery Manufacturers Association,
who complained that ethanol has the same "magical effect" on
politicians as the tooth fairy and Santa Claus have on children.
"It>s great news for corn farmers, but terrible news for consumers."
But ethanol critics are not getting much traction with their argument.
Last week, the Senate voted 86 to 8 for a new energy bill containing
expanded ethanol mandates, and the House is expected to follow
suit this week.

Experts with no stake in the argument say ethanol has indeed
contributed to rising food costs, but that is only one among
several factors. Higher fuel costs are driving up the expense of
growing and transporting food. And strong economic growth
abroad is increasing demand for agricultural commodities,
allowing once-destitute people to augment their diets with meat
and dairy. It is also a tough time, politically, to make a case
against ethanol. With continuing turmoil in the Middle East,
sky-high gas prices and presidential candidates stumping in
Iowa, the heart of the Corn Belt, a new renewable fuel standard
has plenty of supporters on Capitol Hill.

"We did get whipped," said Jay Truitt, vice president of
government affairs for the National Cattlemen>s Beef Association.
"We continue to be caught up in this fervor, almost spirituality,
about ethanol. You can>t get anyone to consider that there is a
consequence to these actions." He added, "We think there will
be a day when people ask, 'Why in the world did we do this?'"
The bill in Congress would increase the mandate for renewable
fuels to a striking 36 billion gallons by 2022. That is far beyond a
requirement on the books now for 7.5 billion gallons of ethanol by
2012. Much of the newly required ethanol could be made from
agricultural wastes like corn stalks and straw, and its production
would not compete directly with food production. But the proposed
mandate, known as a renewable fuel standard, also calls for 15
billion gallons of ethanol made from grains, primarily corn. Ethanol
advocates say they believe yield increases will supply much of the
extra corn needed to meet the new mandate.

Mark Leonard, who raises cattle and corn in western Iowa and owns
a stake in several ethanol plants, said it was "absolutely essential"
that the government increase the mandate for ethanol, and he urged
Congress to push up the deadlines. "This is a national security
issue more than anything else," said Leonard, noting the nation>s
dependence on imported oil. "We need to quit sending money to
people who want to blow us up." When the current standard was
passed as part of a 2005 energy bill, it set off a construction binge
of ethanol plants that continues, primarily in the Corn Belt but also
in places like California, Texas and upstate New York. As new
plants opened and the demand for ethanol increased, so did corn
prices.

Farmers have responded to the boom by planting more and more
corn. In fact, the amount of corn planted this year, 94 million acres,
was the most since World War II, and it produced a record crop
of 13.2 billion bushels. But even with bumper crops, corn prices
are expected to climb next year. Joe Victor, vice president for
marketing for Allendale, an agricultural research firm in the Chicago
suburbs, said Midwestern farmers would face a pleasant quandary
in the spring in deciding what to plant because wheat and soybean
prices are at or near record highs and corn prices remain bullish.
"Oh geez, they>ve got money galore," he said. "The Senate vote
for the energy bill was a real confidence builder for the farmer to
think, 'They are not going to pull the rug out from underneath us.'"

The price increases for corn have had a broad impact, both
because farmers are planting more corn and less of other crops
and because livestock producers are scrambling for feed
substitutes. For instance, soybeans acreage planted this year
was about 16 percent less than in 2006. Feed costs have
increased 25 to 30 percent in the last year, according to David
Fairfield, director of feed services at the National Grain and
Feed Association. He attributed virtually all of the increase to the
demands of the ethanol industry. One consequence of the higher
feed costs is rising competition for malt barley between livestock
farmers, who want it for feed, and brewers, who need it for beer.
Joyce, the Rogue Ales owner in Newport, Oregon, said he has
been forced to raise prices to pay for the additional costs of
ingredients.

Rodgers, the Rison, Arkansas, rancher, said he used to feed his
cattle a mixture of corn gluten and soybean hulls. But he said he
cannot get corn gluten anymore, and the cost of soybean hulls
has risen to $150 a ton from about $105 a ton. "I>m all for us
being energy independent," he said, but added, "it>s got to be
market driven." The impact of ethanol on prices at the grocery
store is less certain. Grocery prices that are measured by the
Consumer Price Index increased 5.4 percent in the last year,
with dairy prices up 14 percent; meats, poultry, fish and eggs,
5.4 percent; cereal and baked products, 5.2 percent; and fruits
and vegetables, 4.5 percent. Those increases outpaced overall
inflation of 4.3 percent. Government economists predict grocery
prices will jump another 3 to 4 percent in 2008.

In a study completed in May, researchers at Iowa State University
concluded that retail food prices had already increased by $47 per
person in the previous year or so as a result of higher corn prices.
If corn prices near $4.50 a bushel next year, as many people expect,
the research suggests that retail food prices for meat will increase
about 7.5 percent and egg prices will go up 13.5 percent. But
researchers for the Renewable Fuels Association dispute that math
and contend that the link between corn prices and grocery prices
is weak. As the debate continues, one thing is certain: American
shoppers are increasingly frustrated over rising prices.

"It>s the staples, the cheeses, the milks and produce," said Estes,
shopping at the Chicago-area Whole Foods. "It>s going up, and
my grocery bill at the end, it>s like, 'Are you kidding me?'"

Eric Ferkenhoff contributed reporting from Chicago.

Source: http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/12/18/business/18food.php

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frank87 · Guest

On 2008-01-06, pearl <tea@signguestbook.ie> expressed:
[quote]DUE TO PRODUCING MEATS AND BIOFUELS, THE
FOOD PRICES ARE RISING, FOOD STOCKS ARE
LOWER, HUNGER PROBLEMS ARE INCREASING AND
THE PLANET IS BEING DESTROYED
[/quote]
Due to the fact that incomes are increasing in "develloping" countries,
the food prices are rising. The food stocks are sold, and farmers start
earning money again.

It used to be that the farmers in the west, couldn>t produce for the
prices the develloping countries could pay. This is changing, so the
number of buyers is increasing, and the number op producers is still
decreasing.
[quote]
LEARN WHAT YOU CAN DO TO HELP STOP THIS:
Why should I?
http://www.eco-gaia.net/forum-pt/index.php/topic,203.0.html
Make a positive change: Go vegetarian, use public transports
and bicycles
[/quote]
Vegetarians can>t live on peat, meat-eaters can.

The biofuels, are already used in food production. (It was terrible,
that our cars, could pay more for is than the people in develloping
countries, this is no more)

Greetings,
Frank

Derek Moody · Guest

In article <flrc7j$800$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
<URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
[quote]----- Original Message -----
From: [InfoNature.Org] - E-News

EATING *MEAT* , USING *BIOFUELS* AND *CLIMATE
[/quote]
Lotus - you copied this from a publicly accessible source. It>s a pointless
wate of bandwidth.

Besides we have already discussed all this at length over the last four
years.

If this is part of your darkly hinted series of posts that took you away
from the chore of trying to understand simple scientific argument then it>s
a safe bet that you don>t understand this either.

Cheerio,

--

[quote]derek@farm-direct.co.uk
http://www.farm-direct.co.uk/[/quote]

pearl · Guest

"Derek Moody" <derek@farm-direct.co.uk> wrote in message news:ant080413b49BxcK@strongarm.dereks.pad...
[quote]In article <flrc7j$800$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: [InfoNature.Org] - E-News

EATING *MEAT* , USING *BIOFUELS* AND *CLIMATE

irrelevant ad hominem from a vengeful, soundly-beaten fool
[/quote]
'As stocks run out and harvests fail, the world faces its worst crisis
for 30 years

By Geoffrey Lean
Published: 03 September 2006

Food supplies are shrinking alarmingly around the globe, plunging the
world into its greatest crisis for more than 30 years. New figures show
that this year>s harvest will fail to produce enough to feed everyone on
Earth, for the sixth time in the past seven years. Humanity has so far
managed by eating its way through stockpiles built up in better times -
but these have now fallen below the danger level.

Food prices have already started to rise as a result, and threaten to soar
out of reach of many of the 4.2 billion people who live in the world>s
most vulnerable countries. And the new "green" drive to get cars to run
on biofuels threatens to make food even scarcer and more expensive.

The UN>s Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO) and the US
Department of Agriculture (USDA), which produce the world>s two
main forecasts of the global crop production, both estimate that this
year>s grain harvest will fall for the second successive year.
....
Brown expects the food crisis to get much worse as more and more
land becomes exhausted, soil erodes, water becomes scarcer, and
global warming cuts harvests.
...'
http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article1325467.ece

As it is..

'October 2006
...
More than 852 million people -- about 13 percent of the world
population -- do not have enough food each day to sustain a
healthy life, according to the Rome-based Food and Agriculture
Organisation (FAO).

Of this, about 815 million people live in developing countries,
28 million in "transition" countries of the former Eastern Europe
and ex-Soviet republics, and about nine million in the industrialised
world.

"It is a shame on humanity that in a world that is richer than ever
before, six million children due of malnutrition and related illnesses
before they reach the age of five," Ziegler said.

The study, which goes before the current 61st session of the
General Assembly, points out that the majority of the hungry
live in Asia and Africa, while about 80 percent live in rural areas
and depend on agriculture and pastoralism to survive.

"They are hungry because they do not have enough work, or
access to productive resources like land and water sufficient to
feed their families," it says.
....'
http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=35166

'Some of this land has been acquired through expropriation. This is
as true in the third world today as it was centuries ago in the over-
industrialized nations. Large numbers of poor people have been
imprisoned, made homeless, killed, or have starved as a result of
big landowners expropriating land for pasture. The same sort of
expropriation has occurred, although not on the same scale, to
provide grains for livestock Animals in the over-industrialized world.
...
The over-industrialized world cannot grow enough feed for its livestock
and have to import huge quantities of fodder from third world countries,
"Because of the large amounts of grain required to produce beef, the
geographic location of cattle herds can be misleading. Most industrial
countries do not have sufficient agricultural land to support their meat
consumption. Beef production is particularly land-intensive, because
one calorie of meat production requires 3 calories of grain inputs for
pork and 10 calories for beef. Land requirements can be up to 50 times
higher than for protein production from grain. As a result, a great deal
of the feed consumed in industrialized countries is not produced on
the home farm, but purchased from developing countries. For example,
Western Europe imports more than 40%, or 21 million tons per year, of
its feed grains from the Third World.";"Feeding the meat-eating (world)
class takes nearly 40% of the world>s grain, grown on close to one-fifth
[total feed now one-third] of the world>s cropland."; "There has been a
fundamental shift in world agriculture this century from food grains to
feed grains, and cattle now compete with people for food. A third of
the world>s fish catch and more than a third of the world>s total grain
output is fed to livestock."61 Huge numbers of third world peoples are
starving because the crops grown in their country are exported to fatten
Animals in the over-industrialized nations, "More people are hungry now
than ever before. Many states where hunger is prevalent are net exporters
of food." Even during times of famine, grains continue to be exported
from third world countries to the over-industrialized world, "In addition,
about two-thirds of the total domestic grain crop goes to feed-lots.
....'
http://www.geocities.com/carbonomics/MCsppub/11sp12/11sp12b.html

'Livestock a major threat to environment
...
.... a steep environmental price, according to the FAO report,
Livestock>s Long Shadow -Environmental Issues and Options.
"The environmental costs per unit of livestock production must
be cut by one half, just to avoid the level of damage worsening
beyond its present level," it warns.

When emissions from land use and land use change are included,
the livestock sector accounts for 9 percent of CO2 deriving from
human-related activities, but produces a much larger share of even
more harmful greenhouse gases. It generates 65 percent of human-
related nitrous oxide, which has 296 times the Global Warming
Potential (GWP) of CO2. Most of this comes from manure.

And it accounts for respectively 37 percent of all human-induced
methane (23 times as warming as CO2), which is largely produced
by the digestive system of ruminants, and 64 percent of ammonia,
which contributes significantly to acid rain.

Livestock now use 30 percent of the earth>s entire land surface, mostly
permanent pasture but also including 33 percent of the global arable
land used to producing feed for livestock, the report notes. As forests
are cleared to create new pastures, it is a major driver of deforestation,
especially in Latin America where, for example, some 70 percent of
former forests in the Amazon have been turned over to grazing.

Land and water

At the same time herds cause wide-scale land degradation, with about
20 percent of pastures considered as degraded through overgrazing,
compaction and erosion. This figure is even higher in the drylands
where inappropriate policies and inadequate livestock management
contribute to advancing desertification.

The livestock business is among the most damaging sectors to the
earth>s increasingly scarce water resources, contributing among other
things to water pollution, euthropication and the degeneration of coral
reefs. The major polluting agents are animal wastes, antibiotics and
hormones, chemicals from tanneries, fertilizers and the pesticides used
to spray feed crops. Widespread overgrazing disturbs water cycles,
reducing replenishment of above and below ground water resources.
Significant amounts of water are withdrawn for the production of feed.

Livestock are estimated to be the main inland source of phosphorous
and nitrogen contamination of the South China Sea, contributing to
biodiversity loss in marine ecosystems.

Meat and dairy animals now account for about 20 percent of all
terrestrial animal biomass. Livestock>s presence in vast tracts of land
and its demand for feed crops also contribute to biodiversity loss;
15 out of 24 important ecosystem services are assessed as in decline,
with livestock identified as a culprit.
....'
http://www.fao.org/newsroom/en/news/2006/1000448/index.html

Adenoid Hynkel · Guest

On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 11:54:55 -0000, "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie>
wrote:

[quote]"Derek Moody" <derek@farm-direct.co.uk> wrote in message news:ant080413b49BxcK@strongarm.dereks.pad...
In article <flrc7j$800$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: [InfoNature.Org] - E-News

EATING *MEAT* , USING *BIOFUELS* AND *CLIMATE

irrelevant ad hominem from a vengeful, soundly-beaten fool

'As stocks run out and harvests fail, the world faces its worst crisis
for 30 years

By Geoffrey Lean
Published: 03 September 2006

Food supplies are shrinking alarmingly around the globe, plunging the
world into its greatest crisis for more than 30 years. New figures show
that this year>s harvest will fail to produce enough to feed everyone on
Earth, for the sixth time in the past seven years. Humanity has so far
managed by eating its way through stockpiles built up in better times -
but these have now fallen below the danger level.

Food prices have already started to rise as a result, and threaten to soar
out of reach of many of the 4.2 billion people who live in the world>s
most vulnerable countries. And the new "green" drive to get cars to run
on biofuels threatens to make food even scarcer and more expensive.

The UN>s Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO) and the US
Department of Agriculture (USDA), which produce the world>s two
main forecasts of the global crop production, both estimate that this
year>s grain harvest will fall for the second successive year.
...
Brown expects the food crisis to get much worse as more and more
land becomes exhausted, soil erodes, water becomes scarcer, and
global warming cuts harvests.
..'
http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article1325467.ece

As it is..

'October 2006
..
More than 852 million people -- about 13 percent of the world
population -- do not have enough food each day to sustain a
healthy life, according to the Rome-based Food and Agriculture
Organisation (FAO).

Of this, about 815 million people live in developing countries,
28 million in "transition" countries of the former Eastern Europe
and ex-Soviet republics, and about nine million in the industrialised
world.

"It is a shame on humanity that in a world that is richer than ever
before, six million children due of malnutrition and related illnesses
before they reach the age of five," Ziegler said.

The study, which goes before the current 61st session of the
General Assembly, points out that the majority of the hungry
live in Asia and Africa, while about 80 percent live in rural areas
and depend on agriculture and pastoralism to survive.

"They are hungry because they do not have enough work, or
access to productive resources like land and water sufficient to
feed their families," it says.
...'
http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=35166

'Some of this land has been acquired through expropriation. This is
as true in the third world today as it was centuries ago in the over-
industrialized nations. Large numbers of poor people have been
imprisoned, made homeless, killed, or have starved as a result of
big landowners expropriating land for pasture. The same sort of
expropriation has occurred, although not on the same scale, to
provide grains for livestock Animals in the over-industrialized world.
..
The over-industrialized world cannot grow enough feed for its livestock
and have to import huge quantities of fodder from third world countries,
"Because of the large amounts of grain required to produce beef, the
geographic location of cattle herds can be misleading. Most industrial
countries do not have sufficient agricultural land to support their meat
consumption. Beef production is particularly land-intensive, because
one calorie of meat production requires 3 calories of grain inputs for
pork and 10 calories for beef. Land requirements can be up to 50 times
higher than for protein production from grain. As a result, a great deal
of the feed consumed in industrialized countries is not produced on
the home farm, but purchased from developing countries. For example,
Western Europe imports more than 40%, or 21 million tons per year, of
its feed grains from the Third World.";"Feeding the meat-eating (world)
class takes nearly 40% of the world>s grain, grown on close to one-fifth
[total feed now one-third] of the world>s cropland."; "There has been a
fundamental shift in world agriculture this century from food grains to
feed grains, and cattle now compete with people for food. A third of
the world>s fish catch and more than a third of the world>s total grain
output is fed to livestock."61 Huge numbers of third world peoples are
starving because the crops grown in their country are exported to fatten
Animals in the over-industrialized nations, "More people are hungry now
than ever before. Many states where hunger is prevalent are net exporters
of food." Even during times of famine, grains continue to be exported
from third world countries to the over-industrialized world, "In addition,
about two-thirds of the total domestic grain crop goes to feed-lots.
...'
http://www.geocities.com/carbonomics/MCsppub/11sp12/11sp12b.html

'Livestock a major threat to environment
..
... a steep environmental price, according to the FAO report,
Livestock>s Long Shadow -Environmental Issues and Options.
"The environmental costs per unit of livestock production must
be cut by one half, just to avoid the level of damage worsening
beyond its present level," it warns.

When emissions from land use and land use change are included,
the livestock sector accounts for 9 percent of CO2 deriving from
human-related activities, but produces a much larger share of even
more harmful greenhouse gases. It generates 65 percent of human-
related nitrous oxide, which has 296 times the Global Warming
Potential (GWP) of CO2. Most of this comes from manure.

And it accounts for respectively 37 percent of all human-induced
methane (23 times as warming as CO2), which is largely produced
by the digestive system of ruminants, and 64 percent of ammonia,
which contributes significantly to acid rain.

Livestock now use 30 percent of the earth>s entire land surface, mostly
permanent pasture but also including 33 percent of the global arable
land used to producing feed for livestock, the report notes. As forests
are cleared to create new pastures, it is a major driver of deforestation,
especially in Latin America where, for example, some 70 percent of
former forests in the Amazon have been turned over to grazing.

Land and water

At the same time herds cause wide-scale land degradation, with about
20 percent of pastures considered as degraded through overgrazing,
compaction and erosion. This figure is even higher in the drylands
where inappropriate policies and inadequate livestock management
contribute to advancing desertification.

The livestock business is among the most damaging sectors to the
earth>s increasingly scarce water resources, contributing among other
things to water pollution, euthropication and the degeneration of coral
reefs. The major polluting agents are animal wastes, antibiotics and
hormones, chemicals from tanneries, fertilizers and the pesticides used
to spray feed crops. Widespread overgrazing disturbs water cycles,
reducing replenishment of above and below ground water resources.
Significant amounts of water are withdrawn for the production of feed.

Livestock are estimated to be the main inland source of phosphorous
and nitrogen contamination of the South China Sea, contributing to
biodiversity loss in marine ecosystems.

Meat and dairy animals now account for about 20 percent of all
terrestrial animal biomass. Livestock>s presence in vast tracts of land
and its demand for feed crops also contribute to biodiversity loss;
15 out of 24 important ecosystem services are assessed as in decline,
with livestock identified as a culprit.
...'
http://www.fao.org/newsroom/en/news/2006/1000448/index.html

[/quote]
How prophetic it turns out to be. The handout farmers like Webster
mocked it then and they still mock it.

But then they obviously don>t know much about farming.

--

My greatest speech to the peasants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7LWuP0T7Q

pam the SPAMMERS send an email to enquires@urfreesim.co.uk

England / Angelic Upstarts

The red in the flag is the blood that was spilt
In the way that your forefathers tell
And never a country has been so great
The stories Britannia could tell

I never want to live my life
Away from the golden shores
There>s never a country in the world
With the scent of an English rose

England oh England a country so great
A land that>s so fair and so true
There>ll never be any colours like
The red the white and the blue

Whenever you go to a far off land
There>s something goes with you
The pride and the joy and the love that comes
For your mother of red white and blue

You could never be born under a flag that>s like
The one of the Union Jack
St.Georges spirit has never died
It all keeps coming back

pearl · Guest

"Adenoid Hynkel ." <enquires@urfreesim.co.uk> wrote in message news:3eq6o350ljbcb1qpaospuvdc65qdjvq6b3@4ax.com...
[quote]On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 11:54:55 -0000, "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie
wrote:

"Derek Moody" <derek@farm-direct.co.uk> wrote in message news:ant080413b49BxcK@strongarm.dereks.pad...
In article <flrc7j$800$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: [InfoNature.Org] - E-News

EATING *MEAT* , USING *BIOFUELS* AND *CLIMATE

irrelevant ad hominem from a vengeful, soundly-beaten fool

'As stocks run out and harvests fail, the world faces its worst crisis
for 30 years

By Geoffrey Lean
Published: 03 September 2006

Food supplies are shrinking alarmingly around the globe, plunging the
world into its greatest crisis for more than 30 years. New figures show
that this year>s harvest will fail to produce enough to feed everyone on
Earth, for the sixth time in the past seven years. Humanity has so far
managed by eating its way through stockpiles built up in better times -
but these have now fallen below the danger level.

Food prices have already started to rise as a result, and threaten to soar
out of reach of many of the 4.2 billion people who live in the world>s
most vulnerable countries. And the new "green" drive to get cars to run
on biofuels threatens to make food even scarcer and more expensive.

The UN>s Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO) and the US
Department of Agriculture (USDA), which produce the world>s two
main forecasts of the global crop production, both estimate that this
year>s grain harvest will fall for the second successive year.
...
Brown expects the food crisis to get much worse as more and more
land becomes exhausted, soil erodes, water becomes scarcer, and
global warming cuts harvests.
..'
http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article1325467.ece

As it is..

'October 2006
..
More than 852 million people -- about 13 percent of the world
population -- do not have enough food each day to sustain a
healthy life, according to the Rome-based Food and Agriculture
Organisation (FAO).

Of this, about 815 million people live in developing countries,
28 million in "transition" countries of the former Eastern Europe
and ex-Soviet republics, and about nine million in the industrialised
world.

"It is a shame on humanity that in a world that is richer than ever
before, six million children due of malnutrition and related illnesses
before they reach the age of five," Ziegler said.

The study, which goes before the current 61st session of the
General Assembly, points out that the majority of the hungry
live in Asia and Africa, while about 80 percent live in rural areas
and depend on agriculture and pastoralism to survive.

"They are hungry because they do not have enough work, or
access to productive resources like land and water sufficient to
feed their families," it says.
...'
http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=35166

'Some of this land has been acquired through expropriation. This is
as true in the third world today as it was centuries ago in the over-
industrialized nations. Large numbers of poor people have been
imprisoned, made homeless, killed, or have starved as a result of
big landowners expropriating land for pasture. The same sort of
expropriation has occurred, although not on the same scale, to
provide grains for livestock Animals in the over-industrialized world.
..
The over-industrialized world cannot grow enough feed for its livestock
and have to import huge quantities of fodder from third world countries,
"Because of the large amounts of grain required to produce beef, the
geographic location of cattle herds can be misleading. Most industrial
countries do not have sufficient agricultural land to support their meat
consumption. Beef production is particularly land-intensive, because
one calorie of meat production requires 3 calories of grain inputs for
pork and 10 calories for beef. Land requirements can be up to 50 times
higher than for protein production from grain. As a result, a great deal
of the feed consumed in industrialized countries is not produced on
the home farm, but purchased from developing countries. For example,
Western Europe imports more than 40%, or 21 million tons per year, of
its feed grains from the Third World.";"Feeding the meat-eating (world)
class takes nearly 40% of the world>s grain, grown on close to one-fifth
[total feed now one-third] of the world>s cropland."; "There has been a
fundamental shift in world agriculture this century from food grains to
feed grains, and cattle now compete with people for food. A third of
the world>s fish catch and more than a third of the world>s total grain
output is fed to livestock."61 Huge numbers of third world peoples are
starving because the crops grown in their country are exported to fatten
Animals in the over-industrialized nations, "More people are hungry now
than ever before. Many states where hunger is prevalent are net exporters
of food." Even during times of famine, grains continue to be exported
from third world countries to the over-industrialized world, "In addition,
about two-thirds of the total domestic grain crop goes to feed-lots.
...'
http://www.geocities.com/carbonomics/MCsppub/11sp12/11sp12b.html

'Livestock a major threat to environment
..
... a steep environmental price, according to the FAO report,
Livestock>s Long Shadow -Environmental Issues and Options.
"The environmental costs per unit of livestock production must
be cut by one half, just to avoid the level of damage worsening
beyond its present level," it warns.

When emissions from land use and land use change are included,
the livestock sector accounts for 9 percent of CO2 deriving from
human-related activities, but produces a much larger share of even
more harmful greenhouse gases. It generates 65 percent of human-
related nitrous oxide, which has 296 times the Global Warming
Potential (GWP) of CO2. Most of this comes from manure.

And it accounts for respectively 37 percent of all human-induced
methane (23 times as warming as CO2), which is largely produced
by the digestive system of ruminants, and 64 percent of ammonia,
which contributes significantly to acid rain.

Livestock now use 30 percent of the earth>s entire land surface, mostly
permanent pasture but also including 33 percent of the global arable
land used to producing feed for livestock, the report notes. As forests
are cleared to create new pastures, it is a major driver of deforestation,
especially in Latin America where, for example, some 70 percent of
former forests in the Amazon have been turned over to grazing.

Land and water

At the same time herds cause wide-scale land degradation, with about
20 percent of pastures considered as degraded through overgrazing,
compaction and erosion. This figure is even higher in the drylands
where inappropriate policies and inadequate livestock management
contribute to advancing desertification.

The livestock business is among the most damaging sectors to the
earth>s increasingly scarce water resources, contributing among other
things to water pollution, euthropication and the degeneration of coral
reefs. The major polluting agents are animal wastes, antibiotics and
hormones, chemicals from tanneries, fertilizers and the pesticides used
to spray feed crops. Widespread overgrazing disturbs water cycles,
reducing replenishment of above and below ground water resources.
Significant amounts of water are withdrawn for the production of feed.

Livestock are estimated to be the main inland source of phosphorous
and nitrogen contamination of the South China Sea, contributing to
biodiversity loss in marine ecosystems.

Meat and dairy animals now account for about 20 percent of all
terrestrial animal biomass. Livestock>s presence in vast tracts of land
and its demand for feed crops also contribute to biodiversity loss;
15 out of 24 important ecosystem services are assessed as in decline,
with livestock identified as a culprit.
...'
http://www.fao.org/newsroom/en/news/2006/1000448/index.html

How prophetic it turns out to be. The handout farmers like Webster
mocked it then and they still mock it.

But then they obviously don>t know much about farming.
[/quote]
Or lying about it. From a not-entirely animal rights perspective..

'Why vegans were right all along

Famine can only be avoided if the rich give up meat, fish and dairy

George Monbiot
Tuesday December 24, 2002
The Guardian

The Christians stole the winter solstice from the pagans, and
capitalism stole it from the Christians. But one feature of the
celebrations has remained unchanged: the consumption of vast
quantities of meat. The practice used to make sense. Livestock
slaughtered in the autumn, before the grass ran out, would be
about to decay, and fat-starved people would have to survive a
further three months. Today we face the opposite problem: we
spend the next three months trying to work it off.

Our seasonal excesses would be perfectly sustainable, if we
weren>t doing the same thing every other week of the year. But,
because of the rich world>s disproportionate purchasing power,
many of us can feast every day. And this would also be fine, if
we did not live in a finite world.

By comparison to most of the animals we eat, turkeys are
relatively efficient converters: they produce about three times
as much meat per pound of grain as feedlot cattle. But there are
still plenty of reasons to feel uncomfortable about eating them.
Most are reared in darkness, so tightly packed that they can
scarcely move. Their beaks are removed with a hot knife to
prevent them from hurting each other. As Christmas approaches,
they become so heavy that their hips buckle. When you see the
inside of a turkey broilerhouse, you begin to entertain grave
doubts about European civilisation.

This is one of the reasons why many people have returned to
eating red meat at Christmas. Beef cattle appear to be happier
animals. But the improvement in animal welfare is offset by the
loss in human welfare. The world produces enough food for
its people and its livestock, though (largely because they are so
poor [lacking land]) some 800 million are malnourished. But as
the population rises, structural global famine will be avoided only
if the rich start to eat less meat. The number of farm animals on
earth has risen fivefold since 1950: humans are now outnumbered
three to one. Livestock already consume half the world>s grain,
and their numbers are still growing almost exponentially.

This is why biotechnology - whose promoters claim that it will
feed the world - has been deployed to produce not food but
feed: it allows farmers to switch from grains which keep
people alive to the production of more lucrative crops for
livestock. Within as little as 10 years, the world will be faced
with a choice: arable farming either continues to feed the world>s
animals or it continues to feed the world>s people. It cannot do
both.

The impending crisis will be accelerated by the depletion of
both phosphate fertiliser and the water used to grow crops.
Every kilogram of beef we consume, according to research
by the agronomists David Pimental and Robert Goodland,
requires around 100,000 [this figure includes precipitation]
litres of water. Aquifers are beginning the run dry all over
the world, largely because of abstraction by farmers.

Many of those who have begun to understand the finity of
global grain production have responded by becoming
vegetarians. But vegetarians who continue to consume milk
and eggs scarcely reduce their impact on the ecosystem.
The conversion efficiency of dairy and egg production is
generally better than meat rearing, but even if everyone who
now eats beef were to eat cheese instead, this would merely
delay the global famine. As both dairy cattle and poultry are
often fed with fishmeal (which means that no one can claim
to eat cheese but not fish), it might, in one respect, even
accelerate it. The shift would be accompanied too by a
massive deterioration in animal welfare: with the possible
exception of intensively reared broilers and pigs, battery
chickens and dairy cows are the farm animals which appear
to suffer most.

We could eat pheasants, many of which are dumped in
landfill after they>ve been shot, and whose price, at this time
of the year, falls to around £2 a bird, but most people would
feel uncomfortable about subsidising the bloodlust of brandy-
soaked hoorays. Eating pheasants, which are also fed on grain,
is sustainable only up to the point at which demand meets
supply. We can eat fish, but only if we are prepared to
contribute to the collapse of marine ecosystems and - as the
European fleet plunders the seas off West Africa - the
starvation of some of the hungriest people on earth. It>s
impossible to avoid the conclusion that the only sustainable
and socially just option is for the inhabitants of the rich world
to become, like most of the earth>s people, broadly vegan,
eating meat only on special occasions like Christmas.

As a meat-eater, I>ve long found it convenient to categorise
veganism as a response to animal suffering or a health fad.
But, faced with these figures, it now seems plain that it>s the
only ethical response to what is arguably the world>s most
urgent social justice issue. We stuff ourselves, and the poor
get stuffed.

www.monbiot.com

http://www.guardian.co.uk/famine/story/0,12128,865087,00.html

doug · Guest

"pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote in message
news:flvsqi$hvg$1@reader01.news.esat.net...
[quote]"Adenoid Hynkel ." <enquires@urfreesim.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3eq6o350ljbcb1qpaospuvdc65qdjvq6b3@4ax.com...
On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 11:54:55 -0000, "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie
wrote:

"Derek Moody" <derek@farm-direct.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ant080413b49BxcK@strongarm.dereks.pad...
In article <flrc7j$800$1@reader01.news.esat.net>, pearl
URL:mailto:tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: [InfoNature.Org] - E-News

EATING *MEAT* , USING *BIOFUELS* AND *CLIMATE

irrelevant ad hominem from a vengeful, soundly-beaten fool

'As stocks run out and harvests fail, the world faces its worst crisis
for 30 years
---------------------------[/quote]
Snip
---------------------------
[quote]As a meat-eater, I>ve long found it convenient to categorise
veganism as a response to animal suffering or a health fad.
But, faced with these figures, it now seems plain that it>s the
only ethical response to what is arguably the world>s most
urgent social justice issue. We stuff ourselves, and the poor
get stuffed.

www.monbiot.com

http://www.guardian.co.uk/famine/story/0,12128,865087,00.html
[/quote]
--------------------------------------
Nothing can be done when famine stalks the land.
I was in the Brylcreme (Air Force ) and for almost a year I was "Roughing
it" in Calcutta.
The Japs stood at Kohima getting ready to "Take India".
Along the main street (Chowringee) which was difficult to walk along because
of the dead and dying skeleton-like women and children caused by the famine
lay side by side almost the length of the Maidan. Sometimes It was said
that more than a thousand died in a day.
On on occasion I went with my oppos (pals), into the popular cafe (Firpo>s)
and scoffed a beef steak more than a foot long and more than an inch in
thickness, surrounded by the appropriate vegetables..
When we finished scoffing I took a cake from the cake stand and outside a
woman lay at deaths door.
I put the cake in her hand but she didn>t have the strength to lift it to
her mouth so I lifted her arm and was immediately sent flying against the
wall by a man in a white dhoti (dress). I drew my fist to drop him but
fortunately my pal stopped me.
With hindsight I realise I was an idiot. I had put my hand on a woman of a
certain religion.

It won>t be long before my homeland suffers in the same way.
People from other Countries are coming here in their hungredsof thousands,
taking the minor jobs and sending most of their earnings back to their
homeland. Thus their money is not being spent in this Country also our own
youngsters cannot get work and hundreds of thousands will.be having no
training or work ethic therefore they will never work for the rest of their
lifetime.
Doug Denny.
----------------------------

Curtain Cider · Guest

On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 09:30:06 +0000, Curtain Cider <curtains4U@000.com>
wrote:

[quote]Notice is hereby served that due to a failure to cease and desist a
bullying campaign led by Mr Jim Webster of Page Bank Farm Rampside
Barrow in Furness Cumbria LA13 0QR Tel: 01229 821561 on newsgroups
against victim/victims one of which is seriously ill with cancer and
heart trouble, probably brought on by the bullying of Mr Webster and
other gang members (notice to follow). It>s now time to escalate the
situation as the victim/victims are too ill to take legal action
presently.

This escalation will involve informing Mr Webster>s neighbors, friends
and family as well as employees who may be unaware who they are
dealing with in Mr Webster.

Webster is currently posting under the details
"Jim Webster" <jim@websterpagebank.freeswerve.co.uk> but as a troll
and bully has been known to use sock puppets and other methods of
trolling.

***************************
He has been asked and advised the consequence of this conspiracy
against an innocent, very ill victim. Not just by us, but also his
usenet friends, the most recent of which is
Message-ID: <d52ZLACeifwHFwXC@farmeroz.port995.com
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 23:07:10 +0000
From: Oz <Oz@farmeroz.port995.com
Newsgroups: uk.business.agriculture
Subject: Re: The Demise of the Politburo

I imagine this is some sort of take the piss out of gardener.

Leave the guy in peace, he is sick.

******************************

This post was in response to the bent ex copper known as
Howard Neil <hneil@REMOVETOREPLY.co.uk> who has also advocated various
criminal activities in the past on newsgroup uk.business.agriculture.
He will also be exposed soon.

Information now being collated on Mr Webster which will then be
emailed and posted to necessary parties who have dealings with him.

All information to me treated in the strictest confidence.

I shall inform the group when we have the full facts to publish here.
[/quote]

We now have information flowing in steadily of people to contact
regarding more information about Jim Webster the bully. His silence
over missing lottery funding and other issues.

I>ll start at the standard contacts first and if necessary will go to
the registered offices/owners. Please keep all information flowing and
we>ll soon get to the bottom of this and find out what Webster is
playing at. Who is aiding and abetting him, and why?

Next we can start on the other bullies one at a time. You know who you
are and we>re coming to get you.

I>m sure some concerned parties might even be keen to run the story of
a deranged farmer and gang leader hounding a seriously ill victims on
Usenet and then bragging about it killing them off! Or the bent copper
associate of Webster advising the use of firearms to settle
neighborhood disputes.

Note Webster is known to forge posts and use sock puppets when posting
to other groups apart from UBA, especially the Scot and Cumbrian
groups where he is also a known troublemaker. I>m sure they will find
these revelations of great interest.

*********************************

Jim Webster farms beef and sheep on 150 acres at Barrow-in-Furness and
is a past president of Cumbria CLA.

Jim Webster
Chairman: Hidden Light-Low Furness Association

Cumbrian Newspapers Ltd
Editor Neil Hodgkinson
Carlisle office map
Dalston Road
Carlisle
Cumbria
CA2 5UA
Cumbrian Newspapers Ltd

Liz Falkingham Editor
Farmers Guardian
Caxton Road
Fulwood
Lancashire
PR2 9NZ

Henry Aubrey-Fletcher – President
Country Land and Business Association
16 Belgrave Square
London
SW1X 8PQ

William Worsley – Deputy President
Harry Cotterell – Vice President

Hidden Light-Low Furness Association
Angela Knowles
Manager
Lake District Peninsulas Tourism Partnership

Colin R Honour
Rector of Aldingham, Dendron, Rampside and Urswick
Church Programmes Co-ordinator

Farmers Weekly Interactive
Quadrant House
The Quadrant
Sutton
Surrey SM2 5AS, UK
Online Editor: Julian Gairdner
Community editor (for enquiries about forums, pictures and blogs on
FWiSpace): Isabel Davies
News: jonathan.riley
Business: andrew.shirley
Arable: robert.harris
Livestock: jonathan.long
Machinery: nick.fone or david.cousins
Poultry: richard.allison

This will do for now as I must dash for a few days and start writing
some letters. I will need to keep my head down to avoid repercussions
from the gang who have already threatened to *do me in* if I keep
exposing them.

I could also do with the full names and addresses of the other gang
members who warrant a mention.

Curtain Cider · Guest

On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 17:58:01 +0000, Curtain Cider <curtains4U@000.com>
wrote:

[quote]On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 09:30:06 +0000, Curtain Cider <curtains4U@000.com
wrote:

Notice is hereby served that due to a failure to cease and desist a
bullying campaign led by Mr Jim Webster of Page Bank Farm Rampside
Barrow in Furness Cumbria LA13 0QR Tel: 01229 821561
jim@pagebank.freeserve.co.uk
on newsgroups
against victim/victims one of which is seriously ill with cancer and
heart trouble, probably brought on by the bullying of Mr Webster and
other gang members (notice to follow). It>s now time to escalate the
situation as the victim/victims are too ill to take legal action
presently.

This escalation will involve informing Mr Webster>s neighbors, friends
and family as well as employees who may be unaware who they are
dealing with in Mr Webster.

Webster is currently posting under the details
"Jim Webster" <jim@websterpagebank.freeswerve.co.uk> but as a troll
and bully has been known to use sock puppets and other methods of
trolling.

***************************
He has been asked and advised the consequence of this conspiracy
against an innocent, very ill victim. Not just by us, but also his
usenet friends, the most recent of which is
Message-ID: <d52ZLACeifwHFwXC@farmeroz.port995.com
Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2008 23:07:10 +0000
From: Oz <Oz@farmeroz.port995.com
Newsgroups: uk.business.agriculture
Subject: Re: The Demise of the Politburo

I imagine this is some sort of take the piss out of gardener.

Leave the guy in peace, he is sick.

******************************

This post was in response to the bent ex copper known as
Howard Neil <hneil@REMOVETOREPLY.co.uk> who has also advocated various
criminal activities in the past on newsgroup uk.business.agriculture.
He will also be exposed soon.

Information now being collated on Mr Webster which will then be
emailed and posted to necessary parties who have dealings with him.

All information to me treated in the strictest confidence.

I shall inform the group when we have the full facts to publish here.

We now have information flowing in steadily of people to contact
regarding more information about Jim Webster the bully. His silence
over missing lottery funding and other issues.

I>ll start at the standard contacts first and if necessary will go to
the registered offices/owners. Please keep all information flowing and
we>ll soon get to the bottom of this and find out what Webster is
playing at. Who is aiding and abetting him, and why?

Next we can start on the other bullies one at a time. You know who you
are and we>re coming to get you.

I>m sure some concerned parties might even be keen to run the story of
a deranged farmer and gang leader hounding a seriously ill victims on
Usenet and then bragging about it killing them off! Or the bent copper
associate of Webster advising the use of firearms to settle
neighborhood disputes.

Note Webster is known to forge posts and use sock puppets when posting
to other groups apart from UBA, especially the Scot and Cumbrian
groups where he is also a known troublemaker. I>m sure they will find
these revelations of great interest.

*********************************

Jim Webster farms beef and sheep on 150 acres at Barrow-in-Furness and
is a past president of Cumbria CLA.

Jim Webster
Chairman: Hidden Light-Low Furness Association

Cumbrian Newspapers Ltd
Editor Neil Hodgkinson
Carlisle office map
Dalston Road
Carlisle
Cumbria
CA2 5UA
Cumbrian Newspapers Ltd

Liz Falkingham Editor
Farmers Guardian
Caxton Road
Fulwood
Lancashire
PR2 9NZ

Henry Aubrey-Fletcher – President
Country Land and Business Association
16 Belgrave Square
London
SW1X 8PQ

William Worsley – Deputy President
Harry Cotterell – Vice President

Hidden Light-Low Furness Association
Angela Knowles
Manager
Lake District Peninsulas Tourism Partnership

Colin R Honour
Rector of Aldingham, Dendron, Rampside and Urswick
Church Programmes Co-ordinator

Farmers Weekly Interactive
Quadrant House
The Quadrant
Sutton
Surrey SM2 5AS, UK
Online Editor: Julian Gairdner
Community editor (for enquiries about forums, pictures and blogs on
FWiSpace): Isabel Davies
News: jonathan.riley
Business: andrew.shirley
Arable: robert.harris
Livestock: jonathan.long
Machinery: nick.fone or david.cousins
Poultry: richard.allison

This will do for now as I must dash for a few days and start writing
some letters. I will need to keep my head down to avoid repercussions
from the gang who have already threatened to *do me in* if I keep
exposing them.

I could also do with the full names and addresses of the other gang
members who warrant a mention.

[/quote]
NOTE NOTE NOTE

I have just been informed by a kind lurker from UBA that Webster is
in fact still working for The CLA. He has apparently been sidelined to
the fringes after his last bout of bullying when he was CLA Chairman
North East but nonetheless he is still working for CLA and as such the
CLA are liable for employing him knowing full well his usenet
bullying.


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