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Michael Hannon · Guest

Just got word that Renault has come up with a true gas/electric hybrid that
runs the same way as the diesel electric trains, etc. - the engine is NOT
used to push the vehicle, but is used solely to power the generator which
charges the batteries and powers the electric motors that push the car.
Result: the engine is much smaller, tuned to the specific rpm range of
maximum efficiency and power, which gives much better fuel economy and
engine longevity, while providing sufficient electrical power to drive the
car. Why the Japanese have chosen the other systems which use the larger,
less fuel efficient engines running in broad rpm ranges to share pushing the
vehicles they build is still beyond me, as VW makes a car that>s much more
fuel efficient than any of those Japanese mongrel hybrids that were built on
a questionable premise long ago dropped by diesel electric builders. I
wouldn>t be surprised to see that Renault hybrid burying the Japanese
competition in mileage comparisons, simply because they started out using a
much better, already proven and accepted, system.

OH (M D)

Don Lancaster · Guest

Michael Hannon wrote:
[quote]
Just got word that Renault has come up with a true gas/electric hybrid that
runs the same way as the diesel electric trains, etc. - the engine is NOT
used to push the vehicle, but is used solely to power the generator which
charges the batteries and powers the electric motors that push the car.
Result: the engine is much smaller, tuned to the specific rpm range of
maximum efficiency and power, which gives much better fuel economy and
engine longevity, while providing sufficient electrical power to drive the
car.
OH (M D)
[/quote]

That is called a serial hybrid.

Parallel hybrids generally require SMALLER engines and motors, not
larger ones. Around half size.
Because half the energy can come from the engine and half from the
batteries under peak demand.

Also, no separate generator is required.

Most other manufacturers seem to be going parallel.

Serial would have the advantages of simpified all wheel drive and
absolute posi if four electric motors were used.

--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
voice: (928)428-4073 email: don@tinaja.com fax 847-574-1462

Please visit my GURU>s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

bw · Guest

"Michael Hannon" <m.f.hannon@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:DYbpb.203226$0v4.15928911@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
[quote]Just got word that Renault has come up with a true gas/electric hybrid
that
runs the same way as the diesel electric trains, etc. - the engine is NOT
used to push the vehicle, but is used solely to power the generator which
charges the batteries and powers the electric motors that push the car.
Result: the engine is much smaller, tuned to the specific rpm range of
maximum efficiency and power, which gives much better fuel economy and
engine longevity, while providing sufficient electrical power to drive the
car. Why the Japanese have chosen the other systems which use the larger,
less fuel efficient engines running in broad rpm ranges to share pushing
the
vehicles they build is still beyond me, as VW makes a car that>s much more
fuel efficient than any of those Japanese mongrel hybrids that were built
on
a questionable premise long ago dropped by diesel electric builders. I
wouldn>t be surprised to see that Renault hybrid burying the Japanese
competition in mileage comparisons, simply because they started out using
a
much better, already proven and accepted, system.

OH (M D)
[/quote]
Good for Renault. That might be the one with the multi-fuel turbine driven
alternator? Seems to have little to do with Hydrogen. Auto technology
continues to be driven to improve in the direction of lower costs/fewer
parts. I>ll just go back to my bicycle.

Brent Wegher

Michael Hannon · Guest

----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Lancaster" <don@tinaja.com>
Newsgroups: sci.energy.hydrogen
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: Renault is doing it

[quote]Michael Hannon wrote:

Just got word that Renault has come up with a true gas/electric hybrid
that
runs the same way as the diesel electric trains, etc. - the engine is
NOT
used to push the vehicle, but is used solely to power the generator
which
charges the batteries and powers the electric motors that push the car.
Result: the engine is much smaller, tuned to the specific rpm range of
maximum efficiency and power, which gives much better fuel economy and
engine longevity, while providing sufficient electrical power to drive
the
car.
OH (M D)

That is called a serial hybrid.

Parallel hybrids generally require SMALLER engines and motors, not
larger ones. Around half size.
[/quote]
Really, Mr. Lancaster?
Parallels require larger engines in order to provide power in a wide rpm
range, whereas serials only require that an engine provide power at a
narrow, highly-tuned range determined to optimize efficiency, which means
that a much smaller engine can be used because it can be tuned to the range
where its efficiency and power can be optimized. i.e - a 500cc piston engine
tuned for maximum power and efficiency at a specific rpm range can easily
produce the same power as a 1500cc engine designed to operate over a wide
rpm range, and much more efficiently. You need to go back and look at the
actual power curves of engines that operate over wide ranges -
they have a peak efficiency at a power rpm range that is
seldom, if ever, seen in use, and are set up for lower peak power but
moderate averag power over a wide rpm range, and the tuning design of such
an engine
mandates that compromises be made in order to provide power over a wider
range while sacrificing maximum peak efficiency and power in the process.
You can>t tune the intake, exhaust, timing, and so many other parameters of
such an engine to
operate at peak efficiency - you can only reach reasonable efficiencies. On
the other hand, a fixed rpm range engine can be highly tuned with little
reservation, even employing high tuning of reciprocating masses, and a much
smaller, lighter engine that actually is kept running in its peak range
LIVES in the specialized range a wide rpm range engine cannot, and can be
tweaked to maximum efficiency without any concern for the demands
of a wide rpm range engine. Were a wide rpm range used on such an engine, it
would produce poor efficiency and minimal power in any rpm outside it>s
specialized range, which is why wide rpm engines MUST be larger and less
efficient in order to produce sufficent power in that wide range, but
intrinsically less peak power and efficiency than a narrow rpm engine is
capable of in its highly-tuned range.
You will never find a parallel hybrid that can run as
efficiently as a serial for that reason. A serial hybrid can be built with
no transmission as well, and thus no complex means by which to "share" the
power output of the engine and motors that a parallel must have, along with
the added weight such configurations must have by design. Renault is also
working on a turbine powered serial with a tiny, lightweight engine, that
would be extremely difficult to build in a parallel because of turbine lag,
which serials have no problem with due to the rpm range of the engine.

This is precisely what the CVT (constantly variable transmission) was
designed around in the Subaru Justy for - it was designed to keep the engine
running in its most
efficient range as opposed to needing to run in a broad rpm range for using
a set of specific speed range gears a normal transmission has, and in doing
so, allowed the engine to produce more power efficiently over the normal
driving range because the transmission was constantly varying its "gear
ratio" to match the engine>s best rpm efficiency range.

Hit the books, Mr. Lancaster - a number of companies, such as Audi, are
doing serious research into CVTs because they know that an engine run in a
narrow rpm range can be built smaller and lighter while producing the same
power at much better efficiency (while lasting longer, by the way) than a
much larger engine required to provide a broad rpm power range.

[quote]Because half the energy can come from the engine and half from the
batteries under peak demand.
[/quote]
Only half-true. That demand is still over a wide rpm range, and the engine
still has to produce power in that whole range. With properly charged
batteries, a serial
can easily compete with that performance-wise, with a much simpler entire
system. Getting into the translation losses involved in a parallel hybrid,
so many compromises (and complex ones that translate power to the wheels
smoothly during the transition from single drive to combination) are
required that the overall efficiency has to suffer, and it does.
A simple serial engine/generator charging batteries that feed a single or
multiple motors power is so much simpler than the mongrel systems used in
Japanese cars that there really is no comparison, and the cost difference
bears that out as well. Most driving isn>t done at peak load, so the actual
need for assistance between two drive systems in one vehicle is dubious, to
say the least, and motors can be run with a reserve peak capacity that can
deal with those peak loads.
And you definitely don>t want to get into comparing the actual complexity
and passenger space consumption involved in parallels vs that in serials,
because the serial>s
simplicity can>t be competed with in a parallel.

Why do most builders use the less efficient parallel system? Maybe the
question were better posed by asking why it is that the VW Lupo TDI makes
them all look like a waste of time at 119mpg and nowhere near the
complexity.
[quote]
Also, no separate generator is required.
[/quote]
Are you saying that the generator in a parallel hybrid ISN>T used to charge
the batteries?
What "separate generator" are you referring to?

[quote]
Most other manufacturers seem to be going parallel.
[/quote]
And most manufacturers are selling cars that can>t even compete with the
non-hybrid VW Lupo TDI in so many ways, including price, that anyone who has
invested in those parallel hybrids might want to start scratching their
heads and hedging their bets.
[quote]
Serial would have the advantages of simpified all wheel drive and
absolute posi if four electric motors were used.
[/quote]
You forgot the most important one - overall simplicity, which translates
into less money at the dealer and a much better shot at good reliability
because of that simplicity.
Then, of course, there>s the higher efficiency of direct drive from the
motors right at the wheels. The all-wheel drive and absolute posi are merely
icing on that much more palatable cake, and quite frankly, are near freebies
at the same time.

OH (M D)
[quote]
--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
voice: (928)428-4073 email: don@tinaja.com fax 847-574-1462

Please visit my GURU>s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com[/quote]

Michael Hannon · Guest

"bw" <bwegher@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bo46ca$15s8$1@news.wplus.net...
[quote]"Michael Hannon" <m.f.hannon@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:DYbpb.203226$0v4.15928911@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Just got word that Renault has come up with a true gas/electric hybrid
that
runs the same way as the diesel electric trains, etc. - the engine is
NOT
used to push the vehicle, but is used solely to power the generator
which
charges the batteries and powers the electric motors that push the car.
Result: the engine is much smaller, tuned to the specific rpm range of
maximum efficiency and power, which gives much better fuel economy and
engine longevity, while providing sufficient electrical power to drive
the
car. Why the Japanese have chosen the other systems which use the
larger,
less fuel efficient engines running in broad rpm ranges to share pushing
the
vehicles they build is still beyond me, as VW makes a car that>s much
more
fuel efficient than any of those Japanese mongrel hybrids that were
built
on
a questionable premise long ago dropped by diesel electric builders. I
wouldn>t be surprised to see that Renault hybrid burying the Japanese
competition in mileage comparisons, simply because they started out
using
a
much better, already proven and accepted, system.

OH (M D)

Good for Renault. That might be the one with the multi-fuel turbine driven
alternator? Seems to have little to do with Hydrogen. Auto technology
continues to be driven to improve in the direction of lower costs/fewer
parts. I>ll just go back to my bicycle.

Brent Wegher
[/quote]
Europe right now is literally in heat over hydrogen technology - everyone is
talking about it, and grants are there for anyone building viable systems,
which, by the way, do not exclude hydrogen combustion in engines like that
turbine generator hybrid system. They>re much more serious about hydrogen
than we are, and frankly, have demonstrated with real market items that
they>re much more serious about elegant, viable solutions to real auto fuel
economy than we or the Japanese are.

Of course, part of the reason for that is that their governments aren>t
embroiled in the high cost of war, so they have the money to spend on
reaching those solutions.

OH (M D)
[quote]

[/quote]

Tequila · Guest

How much power can this (supposed new car) thing supply from its batteries?
I ask that question because...
If acceleration-power was available from the batteries, it seems to me to
straightforward to...
add a 20 hp diesel/petrol/methanol engine to provide electric power for cruise.
This engine would be very
fuel-efficient, because it would always be highly loaded.(and, if you needed
only half power,
you could operate it at full (wide open throttle) load but half rpm)
Tequila

Michael Hannon wrote:

[quote]Just got word that Renault has come up with a true gas/electric hybrid that
runs the same way as the diesel electric trains, etc. - the engine is NOT
used to push the vehicle, but is used solely to power the generator which
charges the batteries and powers the electric motors that push the car.
Result: the engine is much smaller, tuned to the specific rpm range of
maximum efficiency and power, which gives much better fuel economy and
engine longevity, while providing sufficient electrical power to drive the
car. Why the Japanese have chosen the other systems which use the larger,
less fuel efficient engines running in broad rpm ranges to share pushing the
vehicles they build is still beyond me, as VW makes a car that>s much more
fuel efficient than any of those Japanese mongrel hybrids that were built on
a questionable premise long ago dropped by diesel electric builders. I
wouldn>t be surprised to see that Renault hybrid burying the Japanese
competition in mileage comparisons, simply because they started out using a
much better, already proven and accepted, system.

OH (M D)[/quote]

Don Lancaster · Guest

Tequila wrote:
[quote]
How much power can this (supposed new car) thing supply from its batteries?
I ask that question because...
If acceleration-power was available from the batteries, it seems to me to
straightforward to...
add a 20 hp diesel/petrol/methanol engine to provide electric power for cruise.
This engine would be very
fuel-efficient, because it would always be highly loaded.(and, if you needed
only half power,
you could operate it at full (wide open throttle) load but half rpm)
Tequila

[/quote]
Virtually all other car manufacturers are going parallel hybrid rather
than serial hybrid.
Renault is clearlyl odd man out and apparently gambling on an edge.

A serial system requires a costly high power alternator separate from
the load motors which also have to be double size. Parallel systems
integrate the alternator/motor/starter/flywheel into the engine itself.

They are thus more simpler and much more in line with existing
drivetrain technology.

Serial does have definite posi advantages, but it is unlikely to ever
happen.

--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
voice: (928)428-4073 email: don@tinaja.com fax 847-574-1462

Please visit my GURU>s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Cyril Meynier · Guest

Retrouvons en direct Don Lancaster <don@tinaja.com>, notre
envoyé(e) spécial(e) sur sci.energy.hydrogen:

[quote]
That is called a serial hybrid.

Parallel hybrids generally require SMALLER engines and motors, not
larger ones. Around half size.
Because half the energy can come from the engine and half from the
batteries under peak demand.
[/quote]
Citroën akready have a C5 (large sedan) with a reversible
engine/generator.

Most of the time, it is used as the alternator of any car, to provide
onboard electricity.

But it can also work as an electric engine, to switch the main engine
on, but also to provide a small extra power when the engine is running
at full power.

This can be seen as a parallel hybrid with a tiny electric part.

--
"Die Naturwissenschaft ohne Religion ist lahm, die Religion ohne Naturwissenschaft ist blind. "
Einstein

Cyril Meynier · Guest

Retrouvons en direct "Michael Hannon" <oh19437@comcast.net>, notre
envoyé(e) spécial(e) sur sci.energy.hydrogen:

[quote]
Europe right now is literally in heat over hydrogen technology - everyone is
talking about it, and grants are there for anyone building viable systems,
[/quote]
Not really a hot topic, most people here don>t know what an hydrogen
car is - would be.

However, Iceland is moving towards hydrogen with european support. It
is scheduled to be a king of nation-sized laboratory.

This country have extensive renewable energy ressources. All its
electricity comes from hydro and geothermal ressources. Geothermal
sources also provide most of their domestic and industrial heat. In
addition, there is a tremendous potential for wind and tides.

Some hope to export icelandic green energy to europe, using either
hydrogen tankers or submerged HT DC lines.

Iceland may become a kind of saudi Arabia for renewables. That>s a
pity they do not want to join European Union.

[quote]which, by the way, do not exclude hydrogen combustion in engines like that
turbine generator hybrid system.
[/quote]
I>m not sure it is worth using hydrogen in a classical engine. This
would not be more efficient than using any other fuel. Only the
efficiency of a fuel cell can make hydrogen credible - even this is
still controversial. For combustion engine, it would be better to use
some alcohol, or methane.

[quote]They>re much more serious about hydrogen than we are, and frankly,
have demonstrated with real market items that
they>re much more serious about elegant, viable solutions to real auto fuel
economy than we or the Japanese are.
[/quote]
The main reason is gasoline price. Here we pay one euro per liter,
that>s approx four dollars per gallon (in fact, 80 cents for the fuel
and 3.2$ for taxes !).

So fuel efficiency is the main criterion when we buy a car. So,
improving fuel efficiency is the main target of european manufacturers
when they create a new car. A small VW car, the Lupo 3L (diesel) hold
the world record for a commercial car, with 78 miles per gallon.

[quote]Of course, part of the reason for that is that their governments aren>t
embroiled in the high cost of war,
[/quote]
Nobody asked you to do so.

[quote]so they have the money to spend on
reaching those solutions.
[/quote]
Not enough, unfortunaly. Our governements are perfectly able to reach
high deficits without any war. France have a budget deficit that is
roughly 3.5% of the GDP, one of the higher figures amongst developped
countries (probably the second after the US).

EU spends much more money in sponsoring farmers (92 billions euros per
year!) than in sci-tech research.

--
"Die Naturwissenschaft ohne Religion ist lahm, die Religion ohne Naturwissenschaft ist blind. "
Einstein

Michael Hannon · Guest

"Cyril Meynier" <meynier.cyril@//non_aus_pam//wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:paoiqvs0mln80gv5hrgi0hcdm4jo910hci@4ax.com...
[quote]Retrouvons en direct "Michael Hannon" <oh19437@comcast.net>, notre
envoyé(e) spécial(e) sur sci.energy.hydrogen:

Europe right now is literally in heat over hydrogen technology - everyone
is
talking about it, and grants are there for anyone building viable
systems,

Not really a hot topic, most people here don>t know what an hydrogen
car is - would be.
[/quote]
I guess I was talking to the wrong people - in Holland, where hydrogen
grants are openly discussed, there has been a lot of discussion about this,
but then I>ve been around hydrogen work there for years now, so maybe the
circle I>m talking with is specialized.
[quote]
However, Iceland is moving towards hydrogen with european support. It
is scheduled to be a king of nation-sized laboratory.
[/quote]
My understanding is that there is already a fleet of hydrogen powered
vehicles driving around Iceland.
[quote]
This country have extensive renewable energy ressources. All its
electricity comes from hydro and geothermal ressources. Geothermal
sources also provide most of their domestic and industrial heat. In
addition, there is a tremendous potential for wind and tides.

Some hope to export icelandic green energy to europe, using either
hydrogen tankers or submerged HT DC lines.

Iceland may become a kind of saudi Arabia for renewables. That>s a
pity they do not want to join European Union.

which, by the way, do not exclude hydrogen combustion in engines like
that
turbine generator hybrid system.

I>m not sure it is worth using hydrogen in a classical engine. This
would not be more efficient than using any other fuel. Only the
efficiency of a fuel cell can make hydrogen credible - even this is
still controversial. For combustion engine, it would be better to use
some alcohol, or methane.
[/quote]
Not pollution-wise.
[quote]
They>re much more serious about hydrogen than we are, and frankly,
have demonstrated with real market items that
they>re much more serious about elegant, viable solutions to real auto
fuel
economy than we or the Japanese are.

The main reason is gasoline price. Here we pay one euro per liter,
that>s approx four dollars per gallon (in fact, 80 cents for the fuel
and 3.2$ for taxes !).
[/quote]
I>d have to agree except for one factor - the US trade deficit last year was
$500 billion. Were the US manufacturers to build more energy efficient cars
than what is available now in Europe, it would benifit this economy
tremendously, but they won>t do it. To me, with the capabilities they have,
this is really stupid.
[quote]
So fuel efficiency is the main criterion when we buy a car. So,
improving fuel efficiency is the main target of european manufacturers
when they create a new car. A small VW car, the Lupo 3L (diesel) hold
the world record for a commercial car, with 78 miles per gallon.
[/quote]
And that was on an around-the-world trip over all types of terrain and
roads. In Britain, the auto clubs and police tested one and got 119+mpg in
normal driving conditions.
[quote]
Of course, part of the reason for that is that their governments aren>t
embroiled in the high cost of war,

Nobody asked you to do so.
[/quote]
No one asked ME at all. I always though it was a pretty stupid idea,
particularly when there are 34.6 million Americans living in poverty, the US
owes almost $7 trillion in national debt ($330 billion in interest alone
paid last year by taxpayers), and an American trade deficit of $500 billion.
But then this administration doesn>t exactly pay attention to the actual
needs of its own population, other than big business.

[quote]
so they have the money to spend on
reaching those solutions.

Not enough, unfortunaly. Our governements are perfectly able to reach
high deficits without any war. France have a budget deficit that is
roughly 3.5% of the GDP, one of the higher figures amongst developped
countries (probably the second after the US).

EU spends much more money in sponsoring farmers (92 billions euros per
year!) than in sci-tech research.
[/quote]
We have exactly the same farm subsidy problem here - tens of billions that
could be used for all kinds of other things, particularly when most of the
farms in this copuntry are owned by huge corporations like ADM, Cargill,
etc.
It>s not exactly like those corporations need that money badly, especially
when some have been caught at price fixing
[quote]

--
"Die Naturwissenschaft ohne Religion ist lahm, die Religion ohne
Naturwissenschaft ist blind. "
Einstein
[/quote]
Wahrheit

Michael Hannon · Guest

"Don Lancaster" <don@tinaja.com> wrote in message
news:3FA93200.E4DA1FA8@tinaja.com...
[quote]Tequila wrote:

How much power can this (supposed new car) thing supply from its
batteries?
I ask that question because...
If acceleration-power was available from the batteries, it seems to me
to
straightforward to...
add a 20 hp diesel/petrol/methanol engine to provide electric power for
cruise.
This engine would be very
fuel-efficient, because it would always be highly loaded.(and, if you
needed
only half power,
you could operate it at full (wide open throttle) load but half rpm)
Tequila

Virtually all other car manufacturers are going parallel hybrid rather
than serial hybrid.
Renault is clearlyl odd man out and apparently gambling on an edge.

A serial system requires a costly high power alternator separate from
the load motors which also have to be double size. Parallel systems
integrate the alternator/motor/starter/flywheel into the engine itself.

They are thus more simpler and much more in line with existing
drivetrain technology.
[/quote]
Howso? How much actual power can a standard size alternator/motor add to the
output of the fuel engine?
2hp? 3?
How is its output added to the engine>s? Is there a system that has to be
added in order to make this transition take place? According to a friend of
mine who has driven an Audi hybrid, that transition is anything but smooth.

Simpler?
Please explain how this is so, clearly, without evading the transition
mechanism required in combining the two power sources, and how ANY
appreciable power can be had from a standard size alternator/motor as the
electric drive half.
My understanding is that at least some hybrids of the current generation
employ solely electric drive for low in-town speeds and fuel drive for the
highway. Low speed in-town stop-and-go driving requires acceleration that no
normal-sized alternator/motor can possibly provide - it requires a much
larger motor than you>re trying to pass of here as suitable.
[quote]
Serial does have definite posi advantages, but it is unlikely to ever
happen.
[/quote]
Thanks for your opinion. But your history in opinions here isn>t exactly
pristine with exactitude or correctness, despite what you would have others
believe who haven>t been here long enough to see how wrong you can actually
be, or how heavily biased towards certain vested interests your comments can
be as well.
[quote]
--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
voice: (928)428-4073 email: don@tinaja.com fax 847-574-1462

Please visit my GURU>s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com[/quote]

Michael Hannon · Guest

"Tequila" <Tequila@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:3FA8B12A.80A9E9D@nowhere.com...
[quote]How much power can this (supposed new car) thing supply from its
batteries?
I ask that question because...
If acceleration-power was available from the batteries, it seems to me to
straightforward to...
add a 20 hp diesel/petrol/methanol engine to provide electric power for
cruise.[/quote]

Indeed.
And most batteries are capable of massive short term power output for
acceleration. e.g. a standard car battery can easily supply several hundred
amps for a short term with no problem - just looks at the cold cranking amps
these batteries are rated at, typically 500+, which means that 9 in series
can output ~110v@500amps - 55,000 watts, or over 73 electric motor
horsepower, which is typically smoother and more powerful than piston
horsepower, at very high torque as well. Add the latest high
efficiency/power motor designs, such as what Lynn Research is working on,
and you have a high efficiency combination, particularly if that engine is
tweaked to run at a narrow rpm range. It is actually remarkable to see what
can be done with an engine that isn>t built to run at wide rpm ranges in
terms of efficient power/weight/size.
A good idea of the possibilities can be seen in highly tuned formula one or
other racing engines, which aren>t efficient, but output incredible amounts
of horsepower for their size in narrow rpm ranges. At much lower loads in
those rpms ranges those engines can be very efficient because they are
designed and tuned to optimum output at them.
Even a normal engine can provide remarkable efficiency at certain rpms with
proper fuel management. In Holland, I drove a 1.3 liter Mitsubishi that got
92mpg at 75mph - near its optimum load and speed. At 55mph, it got 103mpg.
Were that engine properly tuned to the specific rpm and load at 55, it could
well have gotten 120+mpg.

[quote]This engine would be very
fuel-efficient, because it would always be highly loaded.(and, if you
needed
only half power,
you could operate it at full (wide open throttle) load but half rpm)
Tequila

Michael Hannon wrote:

Just got word that Renault has come up with a true gas/electric hybrid
that
runs the same way as the diesel electric trains, etc. - the engine is
NOT
used to push the vehicle, but is used solely to power the generator
which
charges the batteries and powers the electric motors that push the car.
Result: the engine is much smaller, tuned to the specific rpm range of
maximum efficiency and power, which gives much better fuel economy and
engine longevity, while providing sufficient electrical power to drive
the
car. Why the Japanese have chosen the other systems which use the
larger,
less fuel efficient engines running in broad rpm ranges to share pushing
the
vehicles they build is still beyond me, as VW makes a car that>s much
more
fuel efficient than any of those Japanese mongrel hybrids that were
built on
a questionable premise long ago dropped by diesel electric builders. I
wouldn>t be surprised to see that Renault hybrid burying the Japanese
competition in mileage comparisons, simply because they started out
using a
much better, already proven and accepted, system.

OH (M D)
[/quote]

Tequila · Guest

[quote]DL wrote:
Virtually all other car manufacturers are going parallel hybrid...
[/quote]
My critisizm of the Honda Insight and Toyota Prius is...
they seem 'electrically timid', why bother adding a 1o hp electric motor
to a 70 hp gas motor.

Don Lancaster wrote:

[quote]Tequila wrote:

How much power can this (supposed new car) thing supply from its batteries?
I ask that question because...
If acceleration-power was available from the batteries, it seems to me to
straightforward to...
add a 20 hp diesel/petrol/methanol engine to provide electric power for cruise.
This engine would be very
fuel-efficient, because it would always be highly loaded.(and, if you needed
only half power,
you could operate it at full (wide open throttle) load but half rpm)
Tequila

Virtually all other car manufacturers are going parallel hybrid rather
than serial hybrid.
Renault is clearlyl odd man out and apparently gambling on an edge.

A serial system requires a costly high power alternator separate from
the load motors which also have to be double size. Parallel systems
integrate the alternator/motor/starter/flywheel into the engine itself.

They are thus more simpler and much more in line with existing
drivetrain technology.

Serial does have definite posi advantages, but it is unlikely to ever
happen.

--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
voice: (928)428-4073 email: don@tinaja.com fax 847-574-1462

Please visit my GURU>s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com[/quote]

Tequila · Guest

Other than rediculous cost, why didn>t General Motors put
a 20 hp gas motor (for range extension) in their EV-1 electric
car from a few years ago?
It seems to me that, if the batteries were not deeply cycled,
that the batts would last forever.
Tequila

Michael Hannon wrote:

[quote]"Tequila" <Tequila@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:3FA8B12A.80A9E9D@nowhere.com...
How much power can this (supposed new car) thing supply from its
batteries?
I ask that question because...
If acceleration-power was available from the batteries, it seems to me to
straightforward to...
add a 20 hp diesel/petrol/methanol engine to provide electric power for
cruise.

Indeed.
And most batteries are capable of massive short term power output for
acceleration. e.g. a standard car battery can easily supply several hundred
amps for a short term with no problem - just looks at the cold cranking amps
these batteries are rated at, typically 500+, which means that 9 in series
can output ~110v@500amps - 55,000 watts, or over 73 electric motor
horsepower, which is typically smoother and more powerful than piston
horsepower, at very high torque as well. Add the latest high
efficiency/power motor designs, such as what Lynn Research is working on,
and you have a high efficiency combination, particularly if that engine is
tweaked to run at a narrow rpm range. It is actually remarkable to see what
can be done with an engine that isn>t built to run at wide rpm ranges in
terms of efficient power/weight/size.
A good idea of the possibilities can be seen in highly tuned formula one or
other racing engines, which aren>t efficient, but output incredible amounts
of horsepower for their size in narrow rpm ranges. At much lower loads in
those rpms ranges those engines can be very efficient because they are
designed and tuned to optimum output at them.
Even a normal engine can provide remarkable efficiency at certain rpms with
proper fuel management. In Holland, I drove a 1.3 liter Mitsubishi that got
92mpg at 75mph - near its optimum load and speed. At 55mph, it got 103mpg.
Were that engine properly tuned to the specific rpm and load at 55, it could
well have gotten 120+mpg.

This engine would be very
fuel-efficient, because it would always be highly loaded.(and, if you
needed
only half power,
you could operate it at full (wide open throttle) load but half rpm)
Tequila

Michael Hannon wrote:

Just got word that Renault has come up with a true gas/electric hybrid
that
runs the same way as the diesel electric trains, etc. - the engine is
NOT
used to push the vehicle, but is used solely to power the generator
which
charges the batteries and powers the electric motors that push the car.
Result: the engine is much smaller, tuned to the specific rpm range of
maximum efficiency and power, which gives much better fuel economy and
engine longevity, while providing sufficient electrical power to drive
the
car. Why the Japanese have chosen the other systems which use the
larger,
less fuel efficient engines running in broad rpm ranges to share pushing
the
vehicles they build is still beyond me, as VW makes a car that>s much
more
fuel efficient than any of those Japanese mongrel hybrids that were
built on
a questionable premise long ago dropped by diesel electric builders. I
wouldn>t be surprised to see that Renault hybrid burying the Japanese
competition in mileage comparisons, simply because they started out
using a
much better, already proven and accepted, system.

OH (M D)
[/quote]

Dean Hoffman · Guest

On 11/5/03 3:59 PM, in article
hpeqb.28334$Ec1.2612021@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net, "Michael Hannon"
<m.f.hannon@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

[quote]
We have exactly the same farm subsidy problem here - tens of billions that
could be used for all kinds of other things, particularly when most of the
farms in this copuntry are owned by huge corporations like ADM, Cargill,
etc.
It>s not exactly like those corporations need that money badly, especially
when some have been caught at price fixing

[/quote]
You>re right about farm subsidies not going to help the small farms.
The big boys get the big money. Some of these are big non farm
corporations. Others are just big family farms that are incorporated.
There>s some information here showing where the subsidies go.

http://www.ewg.org

Most farms actually belong to people who don>t farm very much. The USDA
says a farmer is anyone who sells $1000 worth of farm goods or livestock a
year. There>s a chart here showing the number of farms and sales.

http://www.usda.gov/nass/aggraphs/fncht1.htm

The average size farm in my home Nebraska county is about 500 acres.
Let>s say 450 acres are in corn, $2.00/bushel and 150 bu/acre. My
calculator puts gross income at $135,000. These are family farms, not
corporations. It isn>t unusual for the farmer and/or his wife to hold off
farm jobs.

Dean

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