Science and Technology news... :: View topic - reactions between sea water, diesel fuel or engine oil?

Cornelis Koger · Guest

This text I posted on the boatdesign.com forum under the title "any chemists
among you":

When I open the engine bay of my boat, I smell something acid.
The boat is not in use because I am working (again) on various electronic
items.
Batteries are of the sealed type, all 3 of them full and kept that way by a
small solar panel, so I>ve ruled them out.
There is still a trickle of seawater coming in because of a laminate fault
somewhere on the transom; is is pumped out automatically, but the pump
cannot expel the last 1,5 inches. On top of the water is an oil film from
one of the diesels, it drips some engine oil from the turbocharger although
the ring nut is as tight as I dare pull it. There also leaks a minimal
amount of diesel fuel from one of the injection pumps where a seal is not
100% and there may also be some fumes that escape from the oil pan
ventilation. All in all, the oil film kind of seals off the water surface so
the engines cannot corrode from evaporating sea water. But the smell is
always there....

All I got were silly remarks about boiling or leaking batteries, so that was
clearly the wrong environment for a chemical question.

Jean · Guest

Cornelis Koger a écrit dans le message ...
[quote]This text I posted on the boatdesign.com forum under the title "any
chemists
among you":

When I open the engine bay of my boat, I smell something acid.
The boat is not in use because I am working (again) on various electronic
items.
Batteries are of the sealed type, all 3 of them full and kept that way by a
small solar panel, so I>ve ruled them out.
There is still a trickle of seawater coming in because of a laminate fault
somewhere on the transom; is is pumped out automatically, but the pump
cannot expel the last 1,5 inches. On top of the water is an oil film from
one of the diesels, it drips some engine oil from the turbocharger although
the ring nut is as tight as I dare pull it. There also leaks a minimal
amount of diesel fuel from one of the injection pumps where a seal is not
100% and there may also be some fumes that escape from the oil pan
ventilation. All in all, the oil film kind of seals off the water surface
so
the engines cannot corrode from evaporating sea water. But the smell is
always there....

All I got were silly remarks about boiling or leaking batteries, so that
was
clearly the wrong environment for a chemical question.

[/quote]
I once had a 10 horse inboard diesel on a sailboat. When some of the fuel
would mix with sea water in the bilge it had a very unpleasant odor. I would
not characterize it as acid though. I would guess hydrolysis of the fuel
was taking place.

JL

Cornelis Koger · Guest

"Jean" <jean.lenior@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:486a0914$0$869$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...
[quote]
Cornelis Koger a écrit dans le message ...
This text I posted on the boatdesign.com forum under the title "any
chemists
among you":

When I open the engine bay of my boat, I smell something acid.
The boat is not in use because I am working (again) on various electronic
items.
Batteries are of the sealed type, all 3 of them full and kept that way by
a
small solar panel, so I>ve ruled them out.
There is still a trickle of seawater coming in because of a laminate fault
somewhere on the transom; is is pumped out automatically, but the pump
cannot expel the last 1,5 inches. On top of the water is an oil film from
one of the diesels, it drips some engine oil from the turbocharger
although
the ring nut is as tight as I dare pull it. There also leaks a minimal
amount of diesel fuel from one of the injection pumps where a seal is not
100% and there may also be some fumes that escape from the oil pan
ventilation. All in all, the oil film kind of seals off the water surface
so
the engines cannot corrode from evaporating sea water. But the smell is
always there....

All I got were silly remarks about boiling or leaking batteries, so that
was
clearly the wrong environment for a chemical question.

I once had a 10 horse inboard diesel on a sailboat. When some of the fuel
would mix with sea water in the bilge it had a very unpleasant odor. I
would
not characterize it as acid though. I would guess hydrolysis of the fuel
was taking place.

JL

OK, so I>m not the only one. My nose registers an unpleasant odor but has[/quote]
proven to be totally unreliable as a sensor: I translate it as acid or
acrid.
Diesel fuel is said to contain sulphur, probably as SO2. They also sell
low-sulphur diesel at a higher price so it probably is true. With water it
forms H2SO3 which may be what I smell. But that would mean that the fuel
must also react with the metal parts it comes into contact with.

N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc) · Guest

Dear Cornelis Koger:

"Cornelis Koger" <cdk@noonehome.org> wrote in message
news:g4co28$jt7$1@localhost.localdomain...
....
[quote]When I open the engine bay of my boat, I smell
something acid. The boat is not in use because
I am working (again) on various electronic items.

Batteries are of the sealed type, all 3 of them full
and kept that way by a small solar panel, so I>ve
ruled them out.
[/quote]
Remove them, power the system with a battery charger for a test.
I bet your acid smell will be gone. Trickle chargers liberate
hydrogen gas, and this will carry "battery acid" with it.

*Then* you can say you have ruled them out.

[quote]There is still a trickle of seawater coming in
because of a laminate fault somewhere on the
transom; is is pumped out automatically, but
the pump cannot expel the last 1,5 inches. On
top of the water is an oil film from one of the
diesels, it drips some engine oil from the
turbocharger although the ring nut is as tight
as I dare pull it. There also leaks a minimal amount of diesel
fuel from one of the injection
pumps where a seal is not 100% and there
may also be some fumes that escape from
the oil pan ventilation. All in all, the oil film
kind of seals off the water surface so the
engines cannot corrode from evaporating sea
water. But the smell is always there....
[/quote]
You could have some biological action. With the batteries out,
add a drop or two of detergent daily to this "inch and a half" of
water, and see if the smell changes over a week.

[quote]All I got were silly remarks about boiling or
leaking batteries, so that was clearly the
wrong environment for a chemical question.
[/quote]
Looks like you ignored some good advice, labelling it silly.
Ever wonder how battery acid makes it up and corrodes wires
attached to the battery terminals?

David A. Smith

Cornelis Koger · Guest

"N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" <dlzc1@cox.net> wrote in message
news:49qak.11070$rH1.5647@newsfe20.lga...
[quote]Dear Cornelis Koger:

"Cornelis Koger" <cdk@noonehome.org> wrote in message
news:g4co28$jt7$1@localhost.localdomain...
...
When I open the engine bay of my boat, I smell
something acid. The boat is not in use because
I am working (again) on various electronic items.

Batteries are of the sealed type, all 3 of them full
and kept that way by a small solar panel, so I>ve
ruled them out.

Remove them, power the system with a battery charger for a test. I bet
your acid smell will be gone. Trickle chargers liberate hydrogen gas, and
this will carry "battery acid" with it.

*Then* you can say you have ruled them out.

There is still a trickle of seawater coming in
because of a laminate fault somewhere on the
transom; is is pumped out automatically, but
the pump cannot expel the last 1,5 inches. On
top of the water is an oil film from one of the
diesels, it drips some engine oil from the
turbocharger although the ring nut is as tight
as I dare pull it. There also leaks a minimal amount of diesel fuel from
one of the injection
pumps where a seal is not 100% and there
may also be some fumes that escape from
the oil pan ventilation. All in all, the oil film
kind of seals off the water surface so the
engines cannot corrode from evaporating sea
water. But the smell is always there....

You could have some biological action. With the batteries out, add a drop
or two of detergent daily to this "inch and a half" of water, and see if
the smell changes over a week.

All I got were silly remarks about boiling or
leaking batteries, so that was clearly the
wrong environment for a chemical question.

Looks like you ignored some good advice, labelling it silly. Ever wonder
how battery acid makes it up and corrodes wires attached to the battery
terminals?

David A. Smith
As I stated in the original post, the batteries are of the sealed type, i.e.[/quote]
there is no way out for gases except through the safety valve, which only
opens if there is pressure build-up from charging an already fully charged
battery or charging with more that 14,4 V. At least that is what the maker
(Exide) claims to justify the substantial difference in price when compared
to classical 'maintenance-free' batteries.
Cornelis Koger

dlzc · Guest

Dear Cornelis Koger:

On Jul 1, 12:01 pm, "Cornelis Koger" <c...@noonehome.org> wrote:
...
[quote]As I stated in the original post, the batteries are
of the sealed type, i.e. there is no way out for
gases except through the safety valve, which only
opens if there is pressure build-up from charging
an already fully charged battery or charging with
more that 14,4 V. At least that is what the maker
(Exide) claims to justify the substantial difference
in price when compared to classical
'maintenance-free' batteries.
[/quote]
http://www.exide.com/faq/faq_marine.html#overcharge
.. if the battery is "sealed" as you imagine, why can water ever leave
the cell?

I understand this may make you angry, that this gets harped on. It
may be wrong. But it has only been "removed from consideration" in
your mind.

I will say no more about it.

David A. Smith

Ron Jones · Guest

Cornelis Koger wrote:
[quote]"Jean" <jean.lenior@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:486a0914$0$869$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...

OK, so I>m not the only one. My nose registers an unpleasant odor but
has proven to be totally unreliable as a sensor: I translate it as
acid or acrid.
Diesel fuel is said to contain sulphur, probably as SO2. They also
sell low-sulphur diesel at a higher price so it probably is true.
With water it forms H2SO3 which may be what I smell. But that would
mean that the fuel must also react with the metal parts it comes into
contact with.
[/quote]
It>s not there as SO2, the sulphur is there as thiols - hence the typical
diesel smell. Having said that, bacterial oxidation could well turn these
into some odour that seems acidic. The mix of diesel + water *is* well
known to be attacked with bacteria - it definitely has been known to cause
problems in boat fuel tanks where water separates out and bacteria goes
causing a growth that can later block the fuel filter (BTW that>s why I
always add FuelSet to my boat>s diesel, and keep the tank as full as
practicable - prevents too much air being drawn in with temperature changes
and causing condensation in the tank).

--
Ron Jones
Process Safety & Development Specialist
Don>t repeat history, unreported chemical lab/plant near misses at
http://www.crhf.org.uk Only two things are certain: The universe and
human stupidity; and I>m not certain about the universe. ~ Albert
Einstein

Cornelis Koger · Guest

"Ron Jones" <ron@ronjones.org.uk> wrote in message
news:g4dtam$jh1$1@energise.enta.net...
[quote]Cornelis Koger wrote:
"Jean" <jean.lenior@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:486a0914$0$869$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...

OK, so I>m not the only one. My nose registers an unpleasant odor but
has proven to be totally unreliable as a sensor: I translate it as
acid or acrid.
Diesel fuel is said to contain sulphur, probably as SO2. They also
sell low-sulphur diesel at a higher price so it probably is true.
With water it forms H2SO3 which may be what I smell. But that would
mean that the fuel must also react with the metal parts it comes into
contact with.

It>s not there as SO2, the sulphur is there as thiols - hence the typical
diesel smell. Having said that, bacterial oxidation could well turn these
into some odour that seems acidic. The mix of diesel + water *is* well
known to be attacked with bacteria - it definitely has been known to cause
problems in boat fuel tanks where water separates out and bacteria goes
causing a growth that can later block the fuel filter (BTW that>s why I
always add FuelSet to my boat>s diesel, and keep the tank as full as
practicable - prevents too much air being drawn in with temperature
changes and causing condensation in the tank).

--
Ron Jones
Process Safety & Development Specialist
Don>t repeat history, unreported chemical lab/plant near misses at
http://www.crhf.org.uk Only two things are certain: The universe and
human stupidity; and I>m not certain about the universe. ~ Albert
Einstein
Thanks Ron, that makes sense. I recall learning about mercaptans or thiols[/quote]
long ago. Since they are described as weak acids they can migrate from their
hydrocarbon surroundings to the water and ionize there. That is probably the
way fuel manucaturers wash them out to get low-sulphur or sulpher-free
diesel fuel.
The soup in the bilge of course contains enormous quantities of bacteria,
since the main ingredient is luke warm sea water. I guess the smell will
disappear once I succeed in sealing the leak, a job I have postponed to the
autumn. I tried to stop the leak from the inside by drilling small holes and
injecting liquid polyurethane but that only made it more messy.

Cornelis Koger

Cornelis Koger · Guest

"dlzc" <dlzc1@cox.net> wrote in message
news:7cce4fa2-e582-4182-a4c6-208039c05ab8@t12g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
Dear Cornelis Koger:

On Jul 1, 12:01 pm, "Cornelis Koger" <c...@noonehome.org> wrote:
....
[quote]As I stated in the original post, the batteries are
of the sealed type, i.e. there is no way out for
gases except through the safety valve, which only
opens if there is pressure build-up from charging
an already fully charged battery or charging with
more that 14,4 V. At least that is what the maker
(Exide) claims to justify the substantial difference
in price when compared to classical
'maintenance-free' batteries.
[/quote]
http://www.exide.com/faq/faq_marine.html#overcharge
... if the battery is "sealed" as you imagine, why can water ever leave
the cell?

I understand this may make you angry, that this gets harped on. It
may be wrong. But it has only been "removed from consideration" in
your mind.

I will say no more about it.

David A. Smith

David, I don>t get angry that easy.
Of course a sealed object cannot lose its contents. But my car has a closed
cooling system and I still have to add some water from time to time; it>s
all relative.
I>ve read the whole Exide page you pointed at and found several more
statements that are at least 'doubtful', like the suggestion to fill up a
battery with drinking water.
That page has been written by marketing people, not by engineers or
scientists.
New batteries of the type we are talking about cannot lose electrolyte or
gasses. In fact you can turn them upside down on your desk: they won>t eat a
hole in it. But if they are mistreated and can no longer recombine the H and
O, the safety vent opens. Early types used a real pressure relieve valve,
others now have a thin walled spot that bursts open. The latter also makes
it possible to sort out improper warranty claims.

Cornelis Koger

Mark Thorson · Guest

Ron Jones wrote:
[quote]
Dry-docking is the only way to sort out a leaking boat. When I had a
cruiser, we always took on water *only* when we went out, turned out a small
hole in the transom, at the water line - so when under way the back of the
boat sat down and water ingressed.
One reason why I now have a metal boat -
http://www.lock13.co.uk/boats/betsytrotwood.htm - they don>t hole so easily!
[/quote]
Whoa! Is that cool or what! Who is Betsy Trotwood?

Ron Jones · Guest

Cornelis Koger wrote:
[quote]"Ron Jones" <ron@ronjones.org.uk> wrote in message
migrate from their hydrocarbon surroundings to the water and ionize
there. That is probably the way fuel manucaturers wash them out to
get low-sulphur or sulpher-free diesel fuel.
The soup in the bilge of course contains enormous quantities of
bacteria, since the main ingredient is luke warm sea water. I guess
the smell will disappear once I succeed in sealing the leak, a job I
have postponed to the autumn. I tried to stop the leak from the
inside by drilling small holes and injecting liquid polyurethane but
that only made it more messy.
Cornelis Koger
[/quote]
Dry-docking is the only way to sort out a leaking boat. When I had a
cruiser, we always took on water *only* when we went out, turned out a small
hole in the transom, at the water line - so when under way the back of the
boat sat down and water ingressed.
One reason why I now have a metal boat -
http://www.lock13.co.uk/boats/betsytrotwood.htm - they don>t hole so easily!

--
Ron Jones
Process Safety & Development Specialist
Don>t repeat history, unreported chemical lab/plant near misses at
http://www.crhf.org.uk Only two things are certain: The universe and
human stupidity; and I>m not certain about the universe. ~ Albert
Einstein

Ron Jones · Guest

Mark Thorson wrote:
[quote]Ron Jones wrote:

Dry-docking is the only way to sort out a leaking boat. When I had a
cruiser, we always took on water *only* when we went out, turned out
a small hole in the transom, at the water line - so when under way
the back of the boat sat down and water ingressed.
One reason why I now have a metal boat -
http://www.lock13.co.uk/boats/betsytrotwood.htm - they don>t hole so
easily!

Whoa! Is that cool or what! Who is Betsy Trotwood?
[/quote]
Thank You. I didn>t name it (actually it>s Betsey - the web page address is
slightly out) - I don>t believe one should change a boat>s name.
IIRC She>s a character in Dickens>s David Copperfield (the aunt). We have
to have long narrow boats as the majority of locks are still the same size
as were built 200+ years ago - around 70ft long and 7ft wide - allowing a
boat of around 30 tons payload (remember boats replaced the pack horse, this
was well *before* railways were even invented!)

--
Ron Jones
Process Safety & Development Specialist
Don>t repeat history, unreported chemical lab/plant near misses at
http://www.crhf.org.uk Only two things are certain: The universe and
human stupidity; and I>m not certain about the universe. ~ Albert
Einstein

Cornelis Koger · Guest

"Ron Jones" <ron@ronjones.org.uk> wrote in message
news:g4j5p4$p4a$1@energise.enta.net...
[quote]Mark Thorson wrote:
Ron Jones wrote:

Dry-docking is the only way to sort out a leaking boat. When I had a
cruiser, we always took on water *only* when we went out, turned out
a small hole in the transom, at the water line - so when under way
the back of the boat sat down and water ingressed.
One reason why I now have a metal boat -
http://www.lock13.co.uk/boats/betsytrotwood.htm - they don>t hole so
easily!

Whoa! Is that cool or what! Who is Betsy Trotwood?

Thank You. I didn>t name it (actually it>s Betsey - the web page address
is slightly out) - I don>t believe one should change a boat>s name.
IIRC She>s a character in Dickens>s David Copperfield (the aunt). We have
to have long narrow boats as the majority of locks are still the same size
as were built 200+ years ago - around 70ft long and 7ft wide - allowing a
boat of around 30 tons payload (remember boats replaced the pack horse,
this was well *before* railways were even invented!)

--
Ron Jones
Process Safety & Development Specialist
Don>t repeat history, unreported chemical lab/plant near misses at
http://www.crhf.org.uk Only two things are certain: The universe and
human stupidity; and I>m not certain about the universe. ~ Albert
Einstein

A friend of mine once spent a holiday in the UK and rented a narrowboat. He[/quote]
came back with lots of pictures and was very enthousiastic about it. But it
is a phenomenon only to be seen there and very hard to explain to people
living in surroundings without locks, tunnels and narrow waterways. I am
from Holland where almost everything is narrow, including the motorways, but
the canals and their locks are much wider than in the UK. A narrowboat there
would draw a lot of attention, here in the Adriatic it would draw a crowd as
if it were an alien space ship.

Back to the original topic: I sucked out the bilge with a vacuum cleaner.
The water has thickened to almost a jelly and emits something that my wife
says is almost - but not quite - like H2S. So there are definitely bacteria
at work there.
In a way I find this reassuring because originally a was concerned that the
warm sea water might react with grp around the leaky spot, but then the
smell would have been different.
Thanks for your valuable contribution,

Cornelis Koger

Martin Brown · Guest

Cornelis Koger wrote:
[quote]"N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)" <dlzc1@cox.net> wrote in message
news:49qak.11070$rH1.5647@newsfe20.lga...
Dear Cornelis Koger:

"Cornelis Koger" <cdk@noonehome.org> wrote in message
news:g4co28$jt7$1@localhost.localdomain...
...
When I open the engine bay of my boat, I smell
something acid. The boat is not in use because
I am working (again) on various electronic items.
Batteries are of the sealed type, all 3 of them full
and kept that way by a small solar panel, so I>ve
ruled them out.
[/quote]
It is possibly SO2 there are some sea water bacteria that will produce
this in enclosed structures. One of the largest offshore UK windfarm
towers had some bother with it. H&S issued workers with gas testers and
they added an approved biocide to the trapped internal water to avoid
further problems. Sounds like you may have a similar problem.

See section 2.3 in http://www.berr.gov.uk/files/file20295.pdf

Bit of a surprise they can do this to make a living...

Regards,
Martin Brown
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **


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