Science and Technology news... :: View topic - "Nation States" Emerged Eight Million Years Ago

Jim McGinn · Guest

Rich Travsky <traRvEsky@hotmMOVEail.com> wrote

[quote]Then what>s the distinction between being
territorialistic and communally territorialistic?

It>s situated. And there is individual and/or subgroup
"ownership" of "property," in the context of the greater
community. And there is collective--multi-band,
multi-troop defense of the community site by all of these
various "property holders."

Oooh, a nation state. Except that such a thing doesn>t
happen until just before historic times...
[/quote]

Conventional theory assumes that "nation states" could
not come into existence unless and until humans evolved.
I>m saying that conventional theory has it backwards.
I>m saying that humans could not have evolved unless and
until "nation states" came into existence.

Of course the "nation states" that emerged 8 mya are
nothing like those that we currently reside in. In fact
I think a better term is community. Nevertheless its the
same concept. It>s a geographic entity and the fate of
the members of these communities is highly dependent on
their ability to effect a good economy at their community
site by way of their actions. Back then this involved
stone-throwing, stick-wielding, collective temper tantrums
to dissuade inmigration from poverty causing
browsing/grazing species so that the state of poverty
wouldn>t make the A>pith members of these communities
vulnerable to the predators that were the grim reapers of
bad economic conditions.

This is how hominids/humans evolved.

Jim

Spiznet · Guest

jimmcginn@yahoo.com (Jim McGinn) wrote in message news:<

Back then this involved
[quote]stone-throwing, stick-wielding, collective temper tantrums
to dissuade inmigration from poverty causing
browsing/grazing species so that the state of poverty
wouldn>t make the A>pith members of these communities
vulnerable to the predators that were the grim reapers of
bad economic conditions.
[/quote]
Hmm-

Actually, ants do this, chimps do this, packs of dogs, lions...

all animals living in groups do this don>t they? This is not revolutionary...

(Is it the stick thing combined with the fixed territory that makes it different?)

Philip Deitiker · Guest

On 14 Aug 2003 09:56:49 -0700, mark@spiznet.com (Spiznet)
wrote:

[quote]jimmcginn@yahoo.com (Jim McGinn) wrote in message news:

Back then this involved
stone-throwing, stick-wielding, collective temper tantrums
to dissuade inmigration from poverty causing
browsing/grazing species so that the state of poverty
wouldn>t make the A>pith members of these communities
vulnerable to the predators that were the grim reapers of
bad economic conditions.

Hmm-

Actually, ants do this, chimps do this, packs of dogs, lions...
all animals living in groups do this don>t they? This is not revolutionary...
(Is it the stick thing combined with the fixed territory that makes it different?)
[/quote]
That was pointed out to McGinn about 8 million years ago.

Jim McGinn · Guest

mark@spiznet.com (Spiznet) wrote in message news:<cb2e44af.0308140856.3f18a915@posting.google.com>...
[quote]jimmcginn@yahoo.com (Jim McGinn) wrote in message news:

Back then this involved
stone-throwing, stick-wielding, collective temper tantrums
to dissuade inmigration from poverty causing
browsing/grazing species so that the state of poverty
wouldn>t make the A>pith members of these communities
vulnerable to the predators that were the grim reapers of
bad economic conditions.

Hmm-

Actually, ants do this, chimps do this, packs of dogs, lions...

all animals living in groups do this don>t they?
[/quote]
Uh, no. Explain what you mean. (And pay special attention
to the group/communal selective aspects of the scenario.)

[quote]This is not revolutionary...
[/quote]
Revolutionary? Isn>t the question whether or not it
explains hominid adaptation?

[quote]
(Is it the stick thing combined with the fixed territory that makes it different?)
[/quote]
In part. (Think about what is necessary for a group/communal
selective aspects of this scenario. Then see if you can
apply those to the species you mentioned above. This should
be easy for you by now.)

Jim

Jim McGinn · Guest

Philip Deitiker <pdeitik@bcm.tmc.edu> wrote

[quote]That was pointed out to McGinn about 8 million years ago.
[/quote]
What, exactly, was pointed out, dumbass?

Jim McGinn · Guest

mark@spiznet.com (Spiznet) wrote

[quote]Back then this involved stone-throwing, stick-wielding,
collective temper tantrums to dissuade inmigration from
poverty causing browsing/grazing species so that the
state of poverty wouldn>t make the A>pith members of
these communities vulnerable to the predators that were
the grim reapers of bad economic conditions.

Actually, ants do this, chimps do this, packs of
dogs, lions... all animals living in groups do this
don>t they?

Uh, no. Explain what you mean. (Think about what is
necessary for a group/communal selective aspects of this
scenario. Then see if you can apply these to the species
you mentioned above. This should be easy for you by now.)

All these animals have a range, or territory (anthill &
surrounding area).
[/quote]
Being territorial is (or tends to be) one aspect of a group
selective scenario. But, as I think should be obvious to you
by now, there>s more to a group/communal selective scenario
than just territorialism.

Mark, I specifically asked you to, I quote, "Think about
what is necessary for a group/communal selective aspects
of this scenario. Then see if you can apply these to the
species you mentioned above." I don>t see any evidence
that you are making the slightest effort in this regard.

<snip>

[quote]So I agree that a>piths could have done this, but
don>t see how it explains anything.
[/quote]
If you come up with any specific objections let me know.

[quote]Again, there are so many other possible scenarios:
what if they were migratory, what is they were
solitary/monogamous, what if these tree-city-islands
were not significant to hominid evolution (other
environments/various environments).
[/quote]
I>m not going to debate your "what ifs". If you have
any specific and explicit objections then please
present them.

[quote]What if they hunted the browsers or predators, etc, etc.
[/quote]
Why don>t you put together a hypothesis to this effect?

[quote]I>m not saying any of this is true, I>m just saying
we don>t know.
[/quote]
Your questions are vague and inspecific and seem to
be intentionally ignoring the situational factors that
I laid out. I think the explicitness of my
scenario/hypothesis provides you with all kind of
opportunity to challenge its validity. I don>t see
you attempting this.

Jim

Ross Macfarlane · Guest

Philip Deitiker <pdeitik@bcm.tmc.edu> wrote in message news:<cplnjv0956fkm5ckq8u9qhodr1hprv2mdr@4ax.com>...
[quote]On 14 Aug 2003 09:56:49 -0700, mark@spiznet.com (Spiznet)
wrote:

jimmcginn@yahoo.com (Jim McGinn) wrote in message news:

Back then this involved
stone-throwing, stick-wielding, collective temper tantrums
to dissuade inmigration from poverty causing
browsing/grazing species so that the state of poverty
wouldn>t make the A>pith members of these communities
vulnerable to the predators that were the grim reapers of
bad economic conditions.

Hmm-

Actually, ants do this, chimps do this, packs of dogs, lions...
all animals living in groups do this don>t they? This is not revolutionary...
(Is it the stick thing combined with the fixed territory that makes it different?)

That was pointed out to McGinn about 8 million years ago.
[/quote]
If a tree falls in the forest, will Jimmy ever get a clue?

Ross Macfarlane

Doug Weller · Guest

On 14 Aug 2003 01:01:13 -0700, in sci.anthropology.paleo, Jim McGinn
wrote:
[SNIP]
[quote]
Conventional theory assumes that "nation states" could
not come into existence unless and until humans evolved.
[/quote]
Er, no, that>s a bit oversimplified. 'Nation states' have a history
measured in centuries (and not handsfull of centuries, but about a
handfull), I>m leaving on holiday in a few minutes so don>t have time for
an indepth analysis, but they are a *very modern* *political* phenomena.

Doug
--
Doug Weller -- exorcise the demon to reply
Doug & Helen>s Dogs http://www.dougandhelen.com
Doug>s Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk

Jim McGinn · Guest

Doug Weller <dweller@ramtops.co.uk> wrote

[quote]Conventional theory assumes that "nation states" could
not come into existence unless and until humans evolved.

Er, no, that>s a bit oversimplified. 'Nation states' have a history
measured in centuries (and not handsfull of centuries, but about a
handfull), I>m leaving on holiday in a few minutes so don>t have time for
an indepth analysis, but they are a *very modern* *political* phenomena.
[/quote]
I suggest you read this whole thread and any other related
threads before you get involved in this discussion. You>d
first have to get firm grasp of what I mean by the phrase,
'nation state.' And you are going to find this especially
hard to grasp if you start from the perspective of standard
assumptions.

Jim

Doug Weller · Guest

On 18 Aug 2003 07:01:02 -0700, in sci.anthropology.paleo, Jim McGinn
wrote:

[quote]Doug Weller <dweller@ramtops.co.uk> wrote

Conventional theory assumes that "nation states" could
not come into existence unless and until humans evolved.

Er, no, that>s a bit oversimplified. 'Nation states' have a history
measured in centuries (and not handsfull of centuries, but about a
handfull), I>m leaving on holiday in a few minutes so don>t have time for
an indepth analysis, but they are a *very modern* *political* phenomena.

I suggest you read this whole thread and any other related
threads before you get involved in this discussion. You>d
first have to get firm grasp of what I mean by the phrase,
'nation state.' And you are going to find this especially
hard to grasp if you start from the perspective of standard
assumptions.
[/quote]
Ok, if you don>t want to discuss it, you don>t want to discuss it. You
used the phrase 'conventional theory' and I am telling you the
conventional definition of 'nation state'. It does not mean 'community'.
Sure, if you want to call apples oranges, no one can stop you, but it
doesn>t help discussion. Since you clearly do not mean 'nation state' as
is commonly understood, it would help discussion if you didn>t use it.

But your insulting reply tells me you don>t want a discussion.

Doug
--
Doug Weller -- exorcise the demon to reply
Doug & Helen>s Dogs http://www.dougandhelen.com
Doug>s Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk

Philip Deitiker · Guest

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:36:34 +0100, Doug Weller
<dweller@ramtops.co.uk> wrote:

[quote]Ok, if you don>t want to discuss it, you don>t want to discuss it. You
used the phrase 'conventional theory' and I am telling you the
conventional definition of 'nation state'. It does not mean 'community'.
Sure, if you want to call apples oranges, no one can stop you, but it
doesn>t help discussion. Since you clearly do not mean 'nation state' as
is commonly understood, it would help discussion if you didn>t use it.

But your insulting reply tells me you don>t want a discussion.
[/quote]
Doug, meet Jim McGinn.
Famous for:

Capital Ape Manifesto

"McGinnian Death Spiral" [Refers to hostile and ad-hominin
style a person takes as critiques against a hypothesis be
more and more difficult to refute, so that the individual
jumps into the mode of verbal assualt, lying, foul languange
. . . . . . spiraling deeper into nastiness, foul la....]
Look up the word Manifesto and McGinn in google and you can
find a whole lot of McGinns past performances.

Redefining Words

Saying that anyone who knows to much is incapable of
understanding his manifesto.

Pissing on primary literature, as it is the result of
scientist who know to much and thus are incapable of knowing
what Jim McGinn knows.
. . . . .

Uses [badly] a fair number of kindergarten style propaganda
techigues to 'try' to get his point across.

[Perennial member of my killfile]


www.GetXFactor.com Leading Technology, Science, Agriculture News and information	Part of the Identityscape.com network... getxfactor.com jmoodmusic.com smartbusinesschoices.com mintdepot.com lowfaresalways.com evangelicalview.com shoppingpodder.com soproudlywehail.com webnews.ws currenthumor.com

Science and Technology news... Forum Index -> Anthropology - Paleo Forum
Page 1 of 1