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Dutch · Guest

dh@. wrote:
[quote]On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 21:13:20 GMT, Dutch <no@email.com> wrote:

dh@. wrote:

I>m in favor of providing decent AW, which works AGAINST the
elimination objective:
That>s actually true,

Unlike yourself, I don>t lie about the fact.
[/quote]
Show where I lied about that.

[quote]but I suspect not in the way you
mean. Good AW takes away some of the sting of the AR
agenda which relies on images of animals being abused,
not on images of happy barnyards. The AR movement
recognized this a number of years ago and many AR
leaders began to distance themselves from good AW as a
goal of the movement. PeTA, however, as do other
groups, still promotes and uses improving AW as a main
plank in their public platform.

They exploit AW issues to obtain funding for their
true objective which is completely different. They use
the money people send them trying to promote better
lives for livestock,
[/quote]
Which they do, see the MacD>s and Burger King campaigns.

to try to eliminate the very animals
[quote]people are sending them money in an attempt to help.
[/quote]
Everyone is trying to eliminate those livestock
animals, most of all meat consumers, who want to eat
them. ARAs prefer that they never be born. What>s
wrong with that?

[quote]That does not mean
they always take the best care of the animals in their
care, but it>s part of their public face, just as AW
is part of your (and my) stated agenda even though you
do not always act in accord with it.

No, I support AW while you try to prevent people
from taking it into consideration more often than not
[/quote]
Never, stop the lying shitbag.

[quote]though from time to time you do attempt the dishonest
trick of pretending that the objective to provide decent
lives and the objective to prevent lives are somehow
the same thing.
[/quote]
They>re not the same thing, I never said they were.

[quote]
If you mean that elimination would mean no more
livestock, and hence make it impossible to improve AW,
that is and always will be an absurd argument.

LOL! It will always be one of those facts you hate.
[/quote]
I don>t hate it, I mock it mercilessly because it>s
the dumbest idea ever conceived. It ranks up there
with the belief that it would be bad to eliminate
crime because it would put police forces out of work.

Guest

On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 20:54:06 GMT, Dutch <no@email.com> wrote:

[quote]dh@. wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 21:13:20 GMT, Dutch <no@email.com> wrote:

dh@. wrote:

I>m in favor of providing decent AW, which works AGAINST the
elimination objective:
That>s actually true,

Unlike yourself, I don>t lie about the fact.

Show where I lied about that.

but I suspect not in the way you
mean. Good AW takes away some of the sting of the AR
agenda which relies on images of animals being abused,
not on images of happy barnyards. The AR movement
recognized this a number of years ago and many AR
leaders began to distance themselves from good AW as a
goal of the movement. PeTA, however, as do other
groups, still promotes and uses improving AW as a main
plank in their public platform.

They exploit AW issues to obtain funding for their
true objective which is completely different. They use
the money people send them trying to promote better
lives for livestock,

Which they do, see the MacD>s and Burger King campaigns.

to try to eliminate the very animals
people are sending them money in an attempt to help.

Everyone is trying to eliminate those livestock
animals, most of all meat consumers, who want to eat
them. ARAs prefer that they never be born. What>s
wrong with that?
[/quote]
I>ve been challenging you to explain how it would
be better to eliminate all livestock than it would be to
provide livestock with decent lives, but you>ve never
been able to explain. If you think you>re finally able to
attempt this 7+ year old challenge then try doing it. GO:

[quote]That does not mean
they always take the best care of the animals in their
care, but it>s part of their public face, just as AW
is part of your (and my) stated agenda even though you
do not always act in accord with it.

No, I support AW while you try to prevent people
from taking it into consideration more often than not

Never, stop the lying shitbag.

though from time to time you do attempt the dishonest
trick of pretending that the objective to provide decent
lives and the objective to prevent lives are somehow
the same thing.

They>re not the same thing,
[/quote]
I will certainly save that quote.

[quote]I never said they were.

If you mean that elimination would mean no more
livestock, and hence make it impossible to improve AW,
that is and always will be an absurd argument.

LOL! It will always be one of those facts you hate.

I don>t hate it,
[/quote]
It certainly appears that you hate it very much,
and lie about your hatred.

[quote]I mock it mercilessly because it>s
the dumbest idea ever conceived.
[/quote]
Only to people who are so disturbed by the fact that
humans eat meat, that their own selfish interests prevent
them from giving the animals proper consideration.

Dutch · Guest

dh@. wrote:
[quote]On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 20:54:06 GMT, Dutch <no@email.com> wrote:

dh@. wrote:
On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 21:13:20 GMT, Dutch <no@email.com> wrote:

dh@. wrote:

I>m in favor of providing decent AW, which works AGAINST the
elimination objective:
That>s actually true,
Unlike yourself, I don>t lie about the fact.
Show where I lied about that.

but I suspect not in the way you
mean. Good AW takes away some of the sting of the AR
agenda which relies on images of animals being abused,
not on images of happy barnyards. The AR movement
recognized this a number of years ago and many AR
leaders began to distance themselves from good AW as a
goal of the movement. PeTA, however, as do other
groups, still promotes and uses improving AW as a main
plank in their public platform.
They exploit AW issues to obtain funding for their
true objective which is completely different. They use
the money people send them trying to promote better
lives for livestock,
Which they do, see the MacD>s and Burger King campaigns.

to try to eliminate the very animals
people are sending them money in an attempt to help.
Everyone is trying to eliminate those livestock
animals, most of all meat consumers, who want to eat
them. ARAs prefer that they never be born. What>s
wrong with that?

I>ve been challenging you to explain how it would
be better to eliminate all livestock
[/quote]
As I said, YOU want all livestock eliminated, so it
can be eaten, as do I.

[quote]than it would be to
provide livestock with decent lives
[/quote]
False dichotomy.

[quote]but you>ve never
been able to explain.
[/quote]
Because it>s a false choice. There are actually more
options than that.

Here they are in order of least desirable to most.

1. Raise a lot of livestock and treat most of them
like shit, as we do now,
2. Raise a lot of livestock and treat most of them well,
and tying for top spot
3. Raise a lot of livestock and treat them all well, and
3(a). Raise no livestock at all

From the standpoint of human morality there is no
difference at all between 3. and 3(a)

If you think you>re finally able to
[quote]attempt this 7+ year old challenge then try doing it. GO:
[/quote]
You are incapable of issuing a challenge that I can>t
meet.
[quote]
That does not mean
they always take the best care of the animals in their
care, but it>s part of their public face, just as AW
is part of your (and my) stated agenda even though you
do not always act in accord with it.
No, I support AW while you try to prevent people
from taking it into consideration more often than not
Never, stop the lying shitbag.

though from time to time you do attempt the dishonest
trick of pretending that the objective to provide decent
lives and the objective to prevent lives are somehow
the same thing.
They>re not the same thing,

I will certainly save that quote.
[/quote]
Why? I>ll say it as often as you like.

[quote]I never said they were.

If you mean that elimination would mean no more
livestock, and hence make it impossible to improve AW,
that is and always will be an absurd argument.
LOL! It will always be one of those facts you hate.
I don>t hate it,

It certainly appears that you hate it very much,
and lie about your hatred.
[/quote]
Your perception is badly skewed by your love of the
failed sophistry, LoL.

[quote]
I mock it mercilessly because it>s
the dumbest idea ever conceived.

Only to people who are so disturbed by the fact that
humans eat meat, that their own selfish interests prevent
them from giving the animals proper consideration.
[/quote]
The primary supporters whose quotes can be found
online are strict utilitarian ARAs.

Christina Websell · Guest

<dghealy@rocketmail.com> wrote in message
news:cf669015-bbec-4b57-a821-66e8605c41ef@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 15, 10:35 am, Sally Thompson <s...@hush.com.invalid> wrote:
[quote]I have been monitoring the amount of layers' pellets my chickens eat for
various reasons, one of them being that I am now administering Flubenvet
in
their feed. Jill (who as far as I>m concerned is Chicken Goddess) says
they
should be eating about 125g of feed per bird per day, but my four are only
just about eating that between them.

If you are adminstering Flubenvet it>s important that you keep them inside[/quote]
so they cannot eat anything else except the Flubenvet dosed food.
It doesn>t work so well if you let them out to fill their crops on range or
feed them pasta ;-)

Jill · Guest

Christina Websell wrote:
[quote]dghealy@rocketmail.com> wrote in message
news:cf669015-bbec-4b57-a821-66e8605c41ef@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 15, 10:35 am, Sally Thompson <s...@hush.com.invalid> wrote:
I have been monitoring the amount of layers' pellets my chickens eat
for various reasons, one of them being that I am now administering
Flubenvet in
their feed. Jill (who as far as I>m concerned is Chicken Goddess)
says they
should be eating about 125g of feed per bird per day, but my four
are only just about eating that between them.

If you are adminstering Flubenvet it>s important that you keep them
inside so they cannot eat anything else except the Flubenvet dosed
food. It doesn>t work so well if you let them out to fill their crops on
range or feed them pasta ;-)
[/quote]
We have not had problems with ranging birds, and would not feed pasta <g>
but we DO use layers meal at the times we are worming as the wormer sticks
to it better.
As we tend to worm spring and autumn when the volume of food on range is
lessened maybe that helps as well.

--
regards
Jill Bowis

Domestic Poultry and Waterfowl Solutions
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine Nursery
Seasonal Farm Food
http://www.kintaline.co.uk

Sally Thompson · Guest

On Fri, 3 Oct 2008 11:12:02 +0100, Jill wrote
(in article <6km9ejF8m8e0U1@mid.individual.net>):

[quote]Christina Websell wrote:
dghealy@rocketmail.com> wrote in message
news:cf669015-bbec-4b57-a821-66e8605c41ef@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 15, 10:35 am, Sally Thompson <s...@hush.com.invalid> wrote:
I have been monitoring the amount of layers' pellets my chickens eat
for various reasons, one of them being that I am now administering
Flubenvet in
their feed. Jill (who as far as I>m concerned is Chicken Goddess)
says they
should be eating about 125g of feed per bird per day, but my four
are only just about eating that between them.

If you are adminstering Flubenvet it>s important that you keep them
inside so they cannot eat anything else except the Flubenvet dosed
food. It doesn>t work so well if you let them out to fill their crops on
range or feed them pasta ;-)

We have not had problems with ranging birds, and would not feed pasta <g
but we DO use layers meal at the times we are worming as the wormer sticks
to it better.
As we tend to worm spring and autumn when the volume of food on range is
lessened maybe that helps as well.

[/quote]
Well, I don>t give them pasta, and during the worming week I didn>t give them
any wheat in the afternoon although they were still free ranging, and I kept
them in their run for a few hours in the morning to make sure they ate their
fill of the pellets. However, to buy mash for use just during worming isn>t
really an option /for me/ because I only have four birds and couldn>t get a
small enough quantity. I mixed the Flubenvet very well with the pellets but
I wonder if there is a better way. When I was trying to give them Poultry
Spice I added a little oil to the pellets but they all refused point-blank to
eat it - whether it was the oil or the Spice, only they know<g>. Blooming
fussy **!!** chickens!

Strangely enough, having posted my original message a few weeks ago, they
immediately started to eat more, leading me to the suspicion that they were
reading over my shoulder.

--
Sally in Shropshire, UK

Jill · Guest

Sally Thompson wrote:
[quote]. However, to buy
mash for use just during worming isn>t really an option /for me/
because I only have four birds and couldn>t get a small enough
quantity.
[/quote]
dodson and horrell; allen and page; and I think Marriages, all do 5kg bags
of layers meal.
Perfect for the worming rounds.

[quote]
Strangely enough, having posted my original message a few weeks ago,
they immediately started to eat more, leading me to the suspicion
that they were reading over my shoulder.
[/quote]
tee hee

--
regards
Jill Bowis

Domestic Poultry and Waterfowl Solutions
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine Nursery
Seasonal Farm Food
http://www.kintaline.co.uk

Sally Thompson · Guest

On Sat, 4 Oct 2008 09:10:18 +0100, Jill wrote
(in article <6kommbF8r4p1U1@mid.individual.net>):

[quote]Sally Thompson wrote:
. However, to buy
mash for use just during worming isn>t really an option /for me/
because I only have four birds and couldn>t get a small enough
quantity.

dodson and horrell; allen and page; and I think Marriages, all do 5kg bags
of layers meal.
Perfect for the worming rounds.

[/quote]
Actually you are right Jill. After I posted the above I realised that a 5kg
bag would probably do two rounds (if it keeps six months). They ate about
2kg between them during the worming week, and by next Spring will be that
much bigger, hopefully all laying and eating more. Do you just put it in a
normal feeder?

--
Sally in Shropshire, UK

Jill · Guest

Sally Thompson wrote:
[quote]On Sat, 4 Oct 2008 09:10:18 +0100, Jill wrote
(in article <6kommbF8r4p1U1@mid.individual.net>):

Sally Thompson wrote:
. However, to buy
mash for use just during worming isn>t really an option /for me/
because I only have four birds and couldn>t get a small enough
quantity.

dodson and horrell; allen and page; and I think Marriages, all do
5kg bags of layers meal.
Perfect for the worming rounds.

Actually you are right Jill. After I posted the above I realised
that a 5kg bag would probably do two rounds (if it keeps six months).
They ate about 2kg between them during the worming week, and by next
Spring will be that much bigger, hopefully all laying and eating
more. Do you just put it in a normal feeder?
[/quote]
Yes, its fine in hopper feeders.
and they can just finish the meal, you do not have to keep it.

--
regards
Jill Bowis

Domestic Poultry and Waterfowl Solutions
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine Nursery
Seasonal Farm Food
http://www.kintaline.co.uk

Christina Websell · Guest

" Jill" <news@NOSPAMkintaline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6km9ejF8m8e0U1@mid.individual.net...
[quote]Christina Websell wrote:
dghealy@rocketmail.com> wrote in message
news:cf669015-bbec-4b57-a821-66e8605c41ef@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 15, 10:35 am, Sally Thompson <s...@hush.com.invalid> wrote:
I have been monitoring the amount of layers' pellets my chickens eat
for various reasons, one of them being that I am now administering
Flubenvet in
their feed. Jill (who as far as I>m concerned is Chicken Goddess)
says they
should be eating about 125g of feed per bird per day, but my four
are only just about eating that between them.

If you are adminstering Flubenvet it>s important that you keep them
inside so they cannot eat anything else except the Flubenvet dosed
food. It doesn>t work so well if you let them out to fill their crops on
range or feed them pasta ;-)

We have not had problems with ranging birds, and would not feed pasta <g
but we DO use layers meal at the times we are worming as the wormer sticks
to it better.
As we tend to worm spring and autumn when the volume of food on range is
lessened maybe that helps as well.

An ex colleague phoned to say she has recently bought chickens, 6 of them.[/quote]
so she can get *real eggs* She>s filling them up with pasta so they get
real food.
I>m not sure that the TV programs are working..

Jill · Guest

"Christina Websell" <spamfree@tinawebsell.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6kq5k7F98ft4U1@mid.individual.net...
[quote]An ex colleague phoned to say she has recently bought chickens, 6 of them.
so she can get *real eggs* She>s filling them up with pasta so they get
real food.
I>m not sure that the TV programs are working..

[/quote]
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I "KNOW" what damage those programmes are doing, I am dealing with the
problems that they are creating every single day.
You would not BELIEVE what people have taken on board as being what is
possible, allowable, and acceptable for domestic chicken keeping.
There are those in the media who I will blame wholeheartedly for causing
some serious welfare problems in domestic poultry and even more causing the
destruction of what was left of our old bloodstocks.

--
--
regards
Jill Bowis

Domestic Poultry and Waterfowl Solutions
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine Nursery
Seasonal Farm Food
http://www.kintaline.co.uk

A _L_ P · Guest

Jill wrote:
[quote]"Christina Websell" <spamfree@tinawebsell.wanadoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6kq5k7F98ft4U1@mid.individual.net...
An ex colleague phoned to say she has recently bought chickens, 6 of them.
so she can get *real eggs* She>s filling them up with pasta so they get
real food.
I>m not sure that the TV programs are working..

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I "KNOW" what damage those programmes are doing, I am dealing with the
problems that they are creating every single day.
You would not BELIEVE what people have taken on board as being what is
possible, allowable, and acceptable for domestic chicken keeping.
There are those in the media who I will blame wholeheartedly for causing
some serious welfare problems in domestic poultry and even more causing the
destruction of what was left of our old bloodstocks.

[/quote]
Oops - could you please point me to some of them because we are certain
to get the same TV and articles here (New Zealand) and I>d like to get
my arguments lined up for when people quote this "wisdom" at me!

A L P

Jill · Guest

A _L_ P wrote:
[quote]
Oops - could you please point me to some of them because we are
certain to get the same TV and articles here (New Zealand) and I>d
like to get my arguments lined up for when people quote this "wisdom"
at me!
A L P
[/quote]

That is my winters project.
Lots more practical pragmatic information online so that when folks are
looking for answers they might fall across some sensible advice instead of
all the fluffy bunny, bad advice.
I have stashes of questions and answers here to work through and try and
make something logical out of.
I have been doing research when i can and will do more through the winter.

--
regards
Jill Bowis

Domestic Poultry and Waterfowl Solutions
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine Nursery
Seasonal Farm Food
http://www.kintaline.co.uk

Sally Thompson · Guest

On Sat, 4 Oct 2008 22:30:39 +0100, Christina Websell wrote
(in article <6kq5k7F98ft4U1@mid.individual.net>):

<snip>
[quote]
An ex colleague phoned to say she has recently bought chickens, 6 of them.
so she can get *real eggs* She>s filling them up with pasta so they get
real food.
I>m not sure that the TV programs are working..
[/quote]

You mean there are TV programmes on cooking for chickens?<g> To think what
I>m missing not having a TV.

--
Sally in Shropshire, UK

Jill · Guest

Sally Thompson wrote:
[quote]On Sat, 4 Oct 2008 22:30:39 +0100, Christina Websell wrote
(in article <6kq5k7F98ft4U1@mid.individual.net>):

snip

An ex colleague phoned to say she has recently bought chickens, 6 of
them. so she can get *real eggs* She>s filling them up with pasta
so they get real food.
I>m not sure that the TV programs are working..

You mean there are TV programmes on cooking for chickens?<g
[/quote]
There will be, just give the producers time !
or if the "stars" feel their exposure has slipped.

:)

--
regards
Jill Bowis

Domestic Poultry and Waterfowl Solutions
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine Nursery
Seasonal Farm Food
http://www.kintaline.co.uk


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