Science and Technology news... :: View topic - Untranlatable ""hebrew" discovered; more proof positive of E

David Johnson · Guest

Kendall K Down <webmaster@diggingsonline.com> wrote in
news:9cb5dcf84f.diggings@diggingsonline.com:

[quote]In message <490fa36d$0$17048$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com
Matt Giwer <jull43@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote:

And from the Romans we find the Kanana was the name for the peasants
around Carthage. Thus, if one wants to torture this word to be the
same as Canaan then it refers to a social class or perhaps
generically to farmers.

If true - and I wouldn>t trust Matt the Pratt to know what day of the
week it is - all it proves is that the Phoenicians were known as
Canaanites. In other words, the exact opposite of what you have been
claiming.

I guess Matt the Pratt is wrong. Again.
[/quote]
In other news: Scientists discover water is wet...

David

Matt Giwer · Guest

Kendall K Down wrote:
[quote]In message <490f9e8e$0$17052$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com
Matt Giwer <jull43@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote:
The issue is simpler. Every use of BT or BYT is a literal place to live from
house to palace to temple, from neighborhood to region. There is no
use of BYT to mean dynasty.

Apart, of course, from those places where BYT is used to mean
"dynasty".
[/quote]
A claim you keep making but have never produced examples of it.

You are a very christian liar.

[quote]Remember, folks, this is Matt the Pratt, philologist
extraordinaire, the guy who thinks that "Phoenicia" is the ancient
name for "Canaan".
[/quote]
Another lie. I said arkies find no Canaan therefore it is another of the pack
of lies in the OT.

What a great Christian! Lie as long as it keeps the money flowing in.

--
When running for president your favorite team wins every game.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4072
http://www.giwersworld.org/disinfo/occupied-2.phtml a6

Matt Giwer · Guest

Kendall K Down wrote:
[quote]In message <490fa0ad$0$17063$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com
Matt Giwer <jull43@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote:

Archaeologists find neither Canaanites nor Hebrews. The only source for
Hebrews is in the pack of lies called the OT among other things. That means
Hebrews are a myth until there is physical evidence of their existence.

Hey, Matt the Pratt! What happened to the Phoenicians? Or have you
decided to put a curb on your stupidity now that Dragonblaze is back?
[/quote]
If you had a working memory you would not appear so stupid in your posts.

--
McCain>s choice of Palin disqualifies him
for public office.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4061
http://www.giwersworld.org/israel/bombings.phtml a5

Matt Giwer · Guest

Weland wrote:
[quote]Kendall K Down wrote:
In message <490e6f59$0$17068$6e1ede2f@read.cnntp.org
Weland <giles@poetic.com> wrote:

No. Canaanite would be an adjective meaning "of or pertaining to the
people or region of Canaan". Canaan is the region. Canaanites are the
peoples living in Canaan. Proto-Canaanite is a term used to distinguish
and describe an alphabet developing in the region.

In the first place, what you are all missing out on is that while
"proto-Canannite" is indeed used to describe a particular alphabet and
style of writing, it is only an assumption (a reasonable one, of
course) that it has anything to do with the Canaanites.

In the first place, there wasn>t any claim that it did, in fact the
explanation was an attempt to separate the two.

In the second place, the experts say that this particular ostracon is
in Hebrew (or possibly proto-Hebrew). It is only Matt the Pratt who
claims that it is Canaanite - and we know what his opinions are worth.

Not all experts, however. And I certainly wasn>t claiming anything
about it, much less what Giwer "thinks", I use the term loosely.
[/quote]
You use it as loosely as you use it.

--
God is a single parent who sent his son to earth on a suicide mission.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4065
http://www.giwersworld.org/palestine/answers.phtml a9

Matt Giwer · Guest

Martin Edwards wrote:
[quote]Matt Giwer wrote:
Dragonblaze wrote:
On 3 Nov, 05:24, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote:
[snip]
Archaeologists have found no people who called themselves or
who were called
Canaanites. That means they another of the bible fictions. Therefore
they had
no language, spoken or written, because they did not exist.
Matt>s memory is again working at its usual efficiency....
This is what I posted some time ago on the subject to Matt:
"Kinahhu? I guess you>ve NEVER head of that word. That is what it is
in Akkadian, and it is Ka-na-na in Egyptian.The Ebla texts have the
ethnic name ga-na-na. Really, if you want to debate this issue, TRY
and do a little reading.
And from the Romans we find the Kanana was the name for the
peasants around Carthage. Thus, if one wants to torture this word to
be the same as Canaan then it refers to a social class or perhaps
generically to farmers.

False inference from the facts. The Romans called them "Kanana" because
they called themselves that, and still spoke Punic, ie Canaanite, even
after the destruction of the city.
[/quote]
Watch my keystrokes.

They called themselves that, yes. Carthage was a Phoenician city. Tyre was a
Phoenician city. Farmers are farmers in both places and get called Kanana in
both places.

As the OT contains nothing but fantasy creations and its creators were
apparently poorly educated, they elevated the Farmers (Canaanites) to an
on-going enemy. It was a name, perhaps archaic in their time, adding
verisimilitude to their historical fiction as it done today by creators of
historical fiction.

I say PEOPLE who were called or called themselves that. Farming is an
occupation not a clan or a political entity.

You may not like my explanation. I am not completely satisfied with it. But
if we find the same or very similar words referring to roughly the same thing
a thousand miles apart there is a question that needs answering. That we find
Phoenicians in both places appears to be a connection between them. That we
know what they were around Carthage and if the Phoenician connection is
reasonable then we know what the word meant around Tyre.

--
The lesson from this financial mess is the people on Wall Street are no more
qualified than you and I to run the country>s finances.
-- The Iron Webmaser, 4058
http://www.giwersworld.org/environment/aehb.phtml a2

Matt Giwer · Guest

Dragonblaze wrote:
[quote]On 4 Nov, 01:20, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote:
[snip]
And from the Romans we find the Kanana was the name for the peasants around
Carthage. Thus, if one wants to torture this word to be the same as Canaan
then it refers to a social class or perhaps generically to farmers.
But your memory does not recall that response posted many times.

Which would not surprise me in the slightest, since the peasants
around Carthage were of Phoenician/Punic stock (even the name of the
city is Phoenician/Canaanite, Kartihadast, 'New City') - which also
was Canaanite in origin. Did you not realize this?
[/quote]
You are of course free to produce any direct connection between the bible
description of Canaanites and the Phoenicians. Please do so.

The first issue you have to address is the Phoenicians maintained Tyre as a
city-state while the Syrians were the inhabitants of the region. The Syrians
differentiated themselves by geography such that Herodotus mentions the
Palestine Syrians.

Your favorite collection of fairy tales has Canaanites cities all over. That
does not match Tyre, a single city. The folks from Tyre defended their
territory but were not into expanding a land empire which the Canaanites in
the Bible were always doing. If I remember correctly, no description of the
Canaanites suggests their wealth came from sea trade. I am unaware of any
congruence between the worship practices of the Phoenicians and the Canaanites.

So please feel free to make the connection. Keep in mind "Who else could they
be?" is the the logical fallacy of begging the question or assuming the
conclusion.

--
Seems to me becoming a POW is second only to getting killed on the
list of screw ups a military man can make.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 4073
http://www.haaretz.com What is Israel really like? http://www.jpost.com a7

Kendall K Down · Guest

In message <49128d18$0$17060$9a6e19ea@unlimited.newshosting.com>
Matt Giwer <jull43@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote:

[quote]Watch my keystrokes.
[/quote]
Why? Do they lie less than your lips?

[quote]They called themselves that, yes. Carthage was a Phoenician city. Tyre was a
Phoenician city. Farmers are farmers in both places and get called Kanana in
both places.
[/quote]
Brilliant. A word means "farmer" because Matt the Pratt has decided
it. (It might even more reasonably be assumed to mean "merchant",
because that is what the Phoenicians were famous for.) There is no
links to related languages, no detailed etymology of the word, there
is just Matt the Pratt>s fiat.

No wonder people choke with laughter when referring to his brain!

Ken Down

--
================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
| Australia>s premier archaeological magazine |
| http://www.diggingsonline.com |
========================================================

Dragonblaze · Guest

On Nov 6, 6:35 am, Matt Giwer <jul...@tampabay.REMover.rr.com> wrote:

[snip]

[quote] And from the Romans we find the Kanana was the name for the peasants around
Carthage. Thus, if one wants to torture this word to be the same as Canaan
then it refers to a social class or perhaps generically to farmers.
[/quote]
Do you have the faintest clue from which period the references I
posted are from? Google Ebla for a clue.

It actually would be excellent evidence, if true, that Romans called
the descendants of the Canaanite/Phoenician Carthage Kanana for this
connection. Another free clue for you - google Tifinagh for an even
later survival.

[quote] But your memory does not recall that response posted many times.
Which would not surprise me in the slightest, since the peasants
around Carthage were of Phoenician/Punic stock (even the name of the
city is Phoenician/Canaanite, Kartihadast, 'New City') - which also
was Canaanite in origin. Did you not realize this?

You are of course free to produce any direct connection between the bible
description of Canaanites and the Phoenicians. Please do so.
[/quote]
I won>t go into the linguistics of it - that is for others to do - and
you would not have the required level of competency to evaluate it
anyway.

Suffice it to say that in the Amarna tablets they call _themselves_
Kenaani or Kinaani.

[quote] The first issue you have to address is the Phoenicians maintained Tyre as a
city-state while the Syrians were the inhabitants of the region. The Syrians
differentiated themselves by geography such that Herodotus mentions the
Palestine Syrians.
[/quote]
Hecataeus of Miletus, 6th cen BCE, writes that Phoenicia was formerly
called Khna.

Since we are dealing with eras much earlier than that of Herodotus',
why do you automatically assume Herodotus is the final word when it
comes to dealing with LB - early IA, or even earlier?

[quote] Your favorite collection of fairy tales has Canaanites cities all over.
[/quote]
Who forgot the Amarna tablets _again_, Matt? Quite a few mentions of
the Canaanite cities around there - and I bloody well will once again
post them in transliteration if I really have to.

[quote]That
does not match Tyre, a single city. The folks from Tyre defended their
territory but were not into expanding a land empire which the Canaanites in
the Bible were always doing.
[/quote]
Rubbish. Phoenicia was a league of city states, such as Byblos, Tyre,
Sidon, Simyra, Aradus, and Berytus, which all appear in the Amarna
tablets. As it happens, the first appearance in archaeology of
cultural elements clearly identifiable with the Phoenicia can be dated
as early as the third millennium BCE.

[quote]If I remember correctly, no description of the
Canaanites suggests their wealth came from sea trade. I am unaware of any
congruence between the worship practices of the Phoenicians and the Canaanites.
[/quote]
From the 10th century BCE onwards, the Phoenicians established cities
and colonies around the Mediterranean. Canaanite deities like Baal and
Astarte were being worshipped from Cyprus to Sardinia, Malta, Sicily,
Spain, Portugal, and most notably at Carthage. So now you are aware of
it.

[quote] So please feel free to make the connection. Keep in mind "Who else could they
be?" is the the logical fallacy of begging the question or assuming the
conclusion.
[/quote]
Just have done so.

Kendall K Down · Guest

In message <3b3699df-de5b-4003-aad2-0be5e5e33b6b@n1g2000prb.googlegrou
ps.com>
Dragonblaze <dragonblaze@apexmail.com> wrote:

[quote]Suffice it to say that in the Amarna tablets they call _themselves_
Kenaani or Kinaani.

Who forgot the Amarna tablets _again_, Matt? Quite a few mentions of
the Canaanite cities around there - and I bloody well will once again
post them in transliteration if I really have to.
[/quote]
Good for you, Dragonblaze. How (and why) you have the patience to deal
with Matt the Pratt I don>t know. I simply mock him these days. He
isn>t worth arguing with.

Still, with any luck he>ll crawl back into his hole and hope that you
go away again.

Ken Down

--
================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
| Australia>s premier archaeological magazine |
| http://www.diggingsonline.com |
========================================================

Dragonblaze · Guest

On 9 Nov, 17:01, Kendall K Down <webmas...@diggingsonline.com> wrote:

[snip]

[quote]Suffice it to say that in the Amarna tablets they call _themselves_
Kenaani or Kinaani.
Who forgot the Amarna tablets _again_, Matt? Quite a few mentions of
the Canaanite cities around there - and I bloody well will once again
post them in transliteration if I really have to.

Good for you, Dragonblaze. How (and why) you have the patience to deal
with Matt the Pratt I don>t know. I simply mock him these days. He
isn>t worth arguing with.
[/quote]
I>m not even trying to convince Matt that he is wrong - any more than
I would try that with Aggie, it>s a hopeless task. My main aim is to
present information for the benefit of any lurkers Matt might fool
with his screed.

[quote]Still, with any luck he>ll crawl back into his hole and hope that you
go away again.
[/quote]
Haven>t noted any reply from him to this thread - but I>m afraid he>ll
surface sooner or later...

Kendall K Down · Guest

In message <5e94e251-5d42-42a1-996b-94c12245b9d5@n1g2000prb.googlegrou
ps.com>
Dragonblaze <dragonblaze@apexmail.com> wrote:

[quote]Good for you, Dragonblaze. How (and why) you have the patience to deal
with Matt the Pratt I don>t know. I simply mock him these days. He
isn>t worth arguing with.

I>m not even trying to convince Matt that he is wrong - any more than
I would try that with Aggie, it>s a hopeless task. My main aim is to
present information for the benefit of any lurkers Matt might fool
with his screed.
[/quote]
Very true - which is why I keep hitting him as well. Did you notice on
the news yesterday that another of his favourite themes has been
demolished with the discovery of the plans of Auschwitz? There really
was a Holocaust, despite Matt the Pratt>s denial.

[quote]Still, with any luck he>ll crawl back into his hole and hope that you
go away again.

Haven>t noted any reply from him to this thread - but I>m afraid he>ll
surface sooner or later...
[/quote]
At the moment he is sounding off on the "Criminal partisan
archaeology" thread. I>m keeping out of it at the moment because he is
quite right in his central thesis - the Israelis are acting illegally
and oppressively - although wrong in his conclusion - the Palestinians
have the right to kill Jews.

Ken Down

--
================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
| Australia>s premier archaeological magazine |
| http://www.diggingsonline.com |
========================================================


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