Science and Technology news... :: View topic - Sing it: "Fifty Ways to Leave this Market".

Michael Coburn · Guest

On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:56:57 -0700, retrogrouch wrote:

[quote]On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:11:46 -0500, Starkiller
NoSpamSKS_SKanz@hotmail.com> wrote:

Raising taxes on the wealthy, or putting the rates back where they were
before Bush took office won>t destroy the wealthy. Building a bunch of
guillotines and cutting their heads off, though, like the French did
would.

Well, I>m sure the rich would have no problem whatsoever going back to
the rates prior to the Bush tax cuts. They would be paying LESS taxes.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/323.html

Learn your facts before simply repeating DNC propaganda.

This says nothing like that. Can you read?
[/quote]
He can read. He can>t comprehend what he reads. The Rovian cult tells
him what the stuff _means_ and he is thus armed and launched into the
propaganda mill.

Michael Coburn · Guest

On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:11:08 -0400, *Poetic Justice* wrote:

[quote]retrogrouch@comcast.net wrote:
On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:09:14 -0500, Starkiller
NoSpamSKS_SKanz@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, 09 Oct 2008 22:56:22 -0700, retrogrouch@comcast.net wrote:

On Thu, 09 Oct 2008 20:59:04 -0500, Starkiller
NoSpamSKS_SKanz@hotmail.com> wrote:

"You cannot enrich the poor by impoverishing the rich."
robin hood did:)
He only gave temporary relief and a little charity.

If you destroy the wealthy then who do you think is going to give
you a paycheck? The government that taxes you for their own
paycheck?
A little more tax is destroying them? LOL. More straw man nonsense.

Get honest grow a pair.
When have any of you fools ever said "a little more tax"? Every time
it is brought up you all have preached how you want to go back to a
94% income tax. That>s not a little. Get honest, quit lying.

This is exactly why we collapsed, people with money invested know that
if the Democrats get the "White House" and both Houses of Congress that
the taxes will go up and "Capital Gains Tax" will go way up, they need
to take all those gains before the election and it>s too late. Combine
that with the existing Democrat created crash in Mortgages and you>ve
got a stampede to get out of the Government controlled economy.
[/quote]
I believe you to be insane, but this is the best I>ve heard from the
rightards. It actually holds together somewhat. Change is a scary
proposition for Republicans. The idea of having a black man as (P)
resident makes their shit get runny and they are, in fact, attempting to
pocket all the loot they can before the cavalry arrives. The problem is,
of course, that the loot doesn>t actually exist and they are instead
shooting themselves in the foot.

And BTW, liar, the crash in mortgages was created by the Republicans and
their fake economy. The assistance of Democrats was minimal.

[quote]You>re lying again. Is that all you can do?

Most people are talking a return to the Reagan era 1987 rates of 38.5%
on those making over $250,000 or more.

Only the right wing liars and a few radicals are talking absurd numbers
like yours.

Liberals always want more, as soon as you get 38.5% you liberals will
want 78% then you>ll want 94%.... You are going to do what FDR did and
Socialize another large portion of the economy. The people who have
money want to keep it and they are leaving your soon to be socialist
economy.
[/quote]
And I will go down to the boat docks and throw flowers as these larcenous
pigs sail away. The stupid notion that rich people are the horn of
plenty is being dispelled as we watch. And the sooner these maggots
leave the country the better off we will be.

The solution to this problem is going to be massive inflation caused by
massive stimulus in the lower end of the economy. The "loot" they think
they have will be quite marginalized. Gasoline will be very expensive
but that is not a show stopper. It is a period of adjustment to reality.

I noticed that my gasoline is 10% ethanol. The government may have to
take over the refineries so as to get more ethanol into the mix. The oil
companies are fighting it all the way.

There>s a new sheriff in town. Suck on it.

*Poetic Justice* · Guest

retrogrouch@comcast.net wrote:
[quote]On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 09:31:54 -0700 (PDT), Video61@tcq.net wrote:

On Oct 10, 10:11 am, *Poetic Justice* <@http://Poetic-Justice.Talk-n-
Dog.com> wrote:
retrogro...@comcast.net wrote:
On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:09:14 -0500, Starkiller
NoSpamSKS_SK...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 09 Oct 2008 22:56:22 -0700, retrogro...@comcast.net wrote:
On Thu, 09 Oct 2008 20:59:04 -0500, Starkiller
NoSpamSKS_SK...@hotmail.com> wrote:
"You cannot enrich the poor by impoverishing the rich."
robin hood did:)
He only gave temporary relief and a little charity.
If you destroy the wealthy then who do you think is going to give you
a paycheck? The government that taxes you for their own paycheck?
A little more tax is destroying them? LOL. More straw man nonsense.
Get honest grow a pair.
When have any of you fools ever said "a little more tax"?
Every time it is brought up you all have preached how you want to go
back to a 94% income tax. That>s not a little.
Get honest, quit lying.
This is exactly why we collapsed, people with money invested know that
if the Democrats get the "White House" and both Houses of Congress that
the taxes will go up and "Capital Gains Tax" will go way up, they need
to take all those gains before the election and it>s too late. Combine
that with the existing Democrat created crash in Mortgages and you>ve
got a stampede to get out of the Government controlled economy.

You>re lying again. Is that all you can do?
Most people are talking a return to the Reagan era 1987 rates of 38.5%
on those making over $250,000 or more.
Only the right wing liars and a few radicals are talking absurd
numbers like yours.
Liberals always want more, as soon as you get 38.5% you liberals will
want 78% then you>ll want 94%.... You are going to do what FDR did and
Socialize another large portion of the economy. The people who have
money want to keep it and they are leaving your soon to be socialist
economy.

Keep whipping out those straw men. LOL.

President Obama. Say it with me now. Now that is Poetic Justice!
[/quote]

Poetic Justice will be you voting for Obama and Dying while your filling
out the health care forms. It will be you Buying a house from the
Government with a Government Mortgage Loan and not Qualifying. It will
be you wanting to buy what is no longer available thanks to a Government
ban.

--
*Liberal Commandments*
1. Thou shalt always be a victim.
2. Spend thy Neighbors money to keep your Brothers in the comfort zone,
that which makes him happy.
3. That which is not Liberal is Evil, use any means possible to promote
Liberal/socialist agenda.
4. Do not covet Success and achievement, teach others to strive for
mediocrity.
5. Show your enemy your Bluster, before whining like a child.
6. Government is the only religion of man, serve no other cause.
7. Tithe all you have and will have to our cause, for that which is not
spent, will come back.
8. Believe in unconditional Peace and Love, so then shall you become
self important and omnipotent.
9. The truth of everything is that which you make it.
10. Life is above all else... until it would interfere with ones choice.

*Poetic Justice* · Guest

retrogrouch@comcast.net wrote:
[quote]On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 09:31:54 -0700 (PDT), Video61@tcq.net wrote:

On Oct 10, 10:11 am, *Poetic Justice* <@http://Poetic-Justice.Talk-n-
Dog.com> wrote:
retrogro...@comcast.net wrote:
On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:09:14 -0500, Starkiller
NoSpamSKS_SK...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 09 Oct 2008 22:56:22 -0700, retrogro...@comcast.net wrote:
On Thu, 09 Oct 2008 20:59:04 -0500, Starkiller
NoSpamSKS_SK...@hotmail.com> wrote:
"You cannot enrich the poor by impoverishing the rich."
robin hood did:)
He only gave temporary relief and a little charity.
If you destroy the wealthy then who do you think is going to give you
a paycheck? The government that taxes you for their own paycheck?
A little more tax is destroying them? LOL. More straw man nonsense.
Get honest grow a pair.
When have any of you fools ever said "a little more tax"?
Every time it is brought up you all have preached how you want to go
back to a 94% income tax. That>s not a little.
Get honest, quit lying.
This is exactly why we collapsed, people with money invested know that
if the Democrats get the "White House" and both Houses of Congress that
the taxes will go up and "Capital Gains Tax" will go way up, they need
to take all those gains before the election and it>s too late. Combine
that with the existing Democrat created crash in Mortgages and you>ve
got a stampede to get out of the Government controlled economy.

You>re lying again. Is that all you can do?
Most people are talking a return to the Reagan era 1987 rates of 38.5%
on those making over $250,000 or more.
Only the right wing liars and a few radicals are talking absurd
numbers like yours.
Liberals always want more, as soon as you get 38.5% you liberals will
want 78% then you>ll want 94%.... You are going to do what FDR did and
Socialize another large portion of the economy. The people who have
money want to keep it and they are leaving your soon to be socialist
economy.

Keep whipping out those straw men. LOL.

President Obama. Say it with me now. Now that is Poetic Justice!
[/quote]

You freezing your ass off and there is no oil or or coal or Nuclear
power to warm you. That will be Poetic Justice.

You going outside at zero degrees and your ELECTRIC CAR WON>T GO. That>s
Poetic Justice.

--
*Liberal Commandments*
1. Thou shalt always be a victim.
2. Spend thy Neighbors money to keep your Brothers in the comfort zone,
that which makes him happy.
3. That which is not Liberal is Evil, use any means possible to promote
Liberal/socialist agenda.
4. Do not covet Success and achievement, teach others to strive for
mediocrity.
5. Show your enemy your Bluster, before whining like a child.
6. Government is the only religion of man, serve no other cause.
7. Tithe all you have and will have to our cause, for that which is not
spent, will come back.
8. Believe in unconditional Peace and Love, so then shall you become
self important and omnipotent.
9. The truth of everything is that which you make it.
10. Life is above all else... until it would interfere with ones choice.

Starkiller · Guest

On Thu, 9 Oct 2008 20:51:02 -0700 (PDT), Video61@tcq.net wrote:

[quote]On Oct 9, 10:35 pm, Starkiller <NoSpamSKS_SK...@hotmail.com> wrote:

i will match my reality based on actual government statistics, vs.
your right wing fairy tale.

http://www.aliveness.com/kangaroo/Timeline.htm

TIMELINES OF THE GREAT DEPRESSION: ??This page features two timelines:
the first for general events of the Roaring 20s and the Great
Depression, the second for leading economic indicators.??The
importance of these time lines cannot be emphasized enough. Seeing the
order in which events actually occurred dispels many myths about the
Great Depression. One of the greatest of these myths is that
government intervention was responsible for its onset. Truly massive
intervention began only under the presidency of Franklin Roosevelt in
1933, who was sworn in after the worst had already hit. Although his
New Deal did not cure it, all the leading economic indicators improved
on his watch. ??But don>t take my word for it -- here is the raw
data: ??TIMELINE OF GENERAL EVENTS ??1920s (Decade)
• During World War I, federal spending grows three times larger than
tax collections. When the government cuts back spending to balance the
budget in 1920, a severe recession results. However, the war economy
invested heavily in the manufacturing sector, and the next decade will
see an explosion of productivity... although only for certain sectors
of the economy.
• An average of 600 banks fail each year.
• Agricultural, energy and coal mining sectors are continually
depressed. Textiles, shoes, shipbuilding and railroads continually
decline.
• The value of farmland falls 30 to 40 percent between 1920 and 1929.
• Organized labor declines throughout the decade. The United Mine
Workers Union will see its membership fall from 500,000 in 1920 to
75,000 in 1928. The American Federation of Labor would fall from 5.1
million in 1920 to 3.4 million in 1929.
• "Technological unemployment" enters the nation>s vocabulary; as
many as 200,000 workers a year are replaced by automatic or semi-
automatic machinery.
• Over the decade, about 1,200 mergers will swallow up more than
6,000 previously independent companies; by 1929, only 200 corporations
will control over half of all American industry.
• By the end of the decade, the bottom 80 percent of all income-
earners will be removed from the tax rolls completely. Taxes on the
rich will fall throughout the decade.
• By 1929, the richest 1 percent will own 40 percent of the nation>s
wealth. The bottom 93 percent will have experienced a 4 percent drop
in real disposable per-capita income between 1923 and 1929.
• The middle class comprises only 15 to 20 percent of all Americans.
• Individual worker productivity rises an astonishing 43 percent from
1919 to 1929. But the rewards are being funneled to the top: the
number of people reporting half-million dollar incomes grows from 156
to 1,489 between 1920 and 1929, a phenomenal rise compared to other
decades. But that is still less than 1 percent of all income-earners.
1922
• The conservative Supreme Court strikes down federal child labor
legislation.
1923
• President Warren Harding dies in office; his administration was
easily one of the most corrupt in American history. Calvin Coolidge,
who is squeaky clean by comparison, becomes president. Coolidge is no
less committed to laissez-faire and a non-interventionist government.
He announces to the American people: "The business of America is
business."
• Supreme Court nullifies minimum wage for women in District of
Columbia.
1924
• The Ku Klux Klan reaches the height of its influence in America: by
the end of the year it will claim 9 million members. It will decline
drastically in 1925, however, after financial and moral scandals rock
its leadership.
• The stock market begins its spectacular rise. Bears little relation
to the rest of the economy.
1925
• The top tax rate is lowered to 25 percent - the lowest top rate in
the eight decades since World War I.
• Supreme Court rules that trade organizations do not violate anti-
trust laws as long as some competition survives.
1928
• The construction boom is over.
• Farmers' share of the national income has dropped from 15 to 9
percent since 1920.
• Between May 1928 and September 1929, the average prices of stocks
will rise 40 percent. Trading will mushroom from 2-3 million shares
per day to over 5 million. The boom is largely artificial.
1929
• Herbert Hoover becomes President. Hoover is a staunch individualist
but not as committed to laissez-faire ideology as Coolidge.
• More than half of all Americans are living below a minimum
subsistence level.
• Annual per-capita income is $750; for farm people, it is only $273.
• Backlog of business inventories grows three times larger than the
year before. Public consumption markedly down.
• Freight carloads and manufacturing fall.
• Automobile sales decline by a third in the nine months before the
crash.
• Construction down $2 billion since 1926.
• Recession begins in August, two months before the stock market
crash. During this two month period, production will decline at an
annual rate of 20 percent, wholesale prices at 7.5 percent, and
personal income at 5 percent.
• Stock market crash begins October 24. Investors call October 29
"Black Tuesday." Losses for the month will total $16 billion, an
astronomical sum in those days.
• Congress passes Agricultural Marketing Act to support farmers until
they can get back on their feet.
1930
• By February, the Federal Reserve has cut the prime interest rate
from 6 to 4 percent. Expands the money supply with a major purchase of
U.S. securities. However, for the next year and a half, the Fed will
add very little money to the shrinking economy. (At no time will it
actually pull money out of the system.) Treasury Secretary Andrew
Mellon announces that the Fed will stand by as the market works itself
out: "Liquidate labor, liquidate stocks, liquidate real estate… values
will be adjusted, and enterprising people will pick up the wreck from
less-competent people." (More)
• The Smoot-Hawley Tariff passes on June 17. With imports forming
only 6 percent of the GNP, the 40 percent tariffs work out to an
effective tax of only 2.4 percent per citizen. Even this is
compensated for by the fact that American businesses are no longer
investing in Europe, but keeping their money stateside. The consensus
of modern economists is that the tariff made only a minor contribution
to the Great Depression in the U.S., but a major one in Europe. (More)
• The first bank panic occurs later this year; a public run on banks
results in a wave of bankruptcies. Bank failures and deposit losses
are responsible for the contracting money supply.
• Supreme Court rules that the monopoly U.S. Steel does not violate
anti-trust laws as long as competition exists, no matter how
negligible.
• Democrats gain in Congressional elections, but still do not have a
majority.
• The GNP falls 9.4 percent from the year before. The unemployment
rate climbs from 3.2 to 8.7 percent.
1931
• No major legislation is passed addressing the Depression.
• A second banking panic occurs in the spring.
• The GNP falls another 8.5 percent; unemployment rises to 15.9
percent.
1932
• This and the next year are the worst years of the Great Depression.
For 1932, GNP falls a record 13.4 percent; unemployment rises to 23.6
percent.
• Industrial stocks have lost 80 percent of their value since 1930.
• 10,000 banks have failed since 1929, or 40 percent of the 1929
total.
• About $2 billion in deposits have been lost since 1929.
• Money supply has contracted 31 percent since 1929.
• GNP has also fallen 31 percent since 1929.
• Over 13 million Americans have lost their jobs since 1929.
• Capital growth investments have dropped from $16.2 billion to 1/3
of one billion since 1929.
• Farm prices have fallen 53 percent since 1929.
• International trade has fallen by two-thirds since 1929.
• The Fed makes its first major expansion of the money supply since
February 1930.
• Congress creates the Reconstruction Finance Corporation. (More)
• Congress passes the Federal Home Loan Bank Act and the Glass-
Steagall Act of 1932. (More)
• Top tax rate is raised from 25 to 63 percent.
• Popular opinion considers Hoover>s measures too little too late.
Franklin Roosevelt easily defeats Hoover in the fall election.
Democrats win control of Congress.
• At his Democratic presidential nomination, Roosevelt says: "I
pledge you, I pledge myself, to a new deal for the American people."
1933
• Roosevelt inaugurated; begins "First 100 Days" of intensive
legislative activity. (More)
• A third banking panic occurs in March. Roosevelt declares a Bank
Holiday; closes financial institutions to stop a run on banks.
• Alarmed by Roosevelt>s plan to redistribute wealth from the rich to
the poor, a group of millionaire businessmen, led by the Du Pont and
J.P. Morgan empires, plans to overthrow Roosevelt with a military coup
and install a fascist government. The businessmen try to recruit
General Smedley Butler, promising him an army of 500,000, unlimited
financial backing and generous media spin control. The plot is foiled
when Butler reports it to Congress. (More)
• Congress authorizes creation of the Agricultural Adjustment
Administration, the Civilian Conservation Corps, the Farm Credit
Administration, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, the Federal
Emergency Relief Administration, the National Recovery Administration,
the Public Works Administration and the Tennessee Valley Authority.
(More)
• Congress passes the Emergency Banking Bill, the Glass-Steagall Act
of 1933, the Farm Credit Act, the National Industrial Recovery Act and
the Truth-in-Securities Act. (More)
• U.S. goes off the gold standard.
• Roosevelt does much to redistribute wealth from the rich to the
poor, but is obsessed with a balanced budget. He later rejects Keynes'
advice to begin heavy deficit spending.
• The free fall of the GNP is significantly slowed; it dips only 2.1
percent this year. Unemployment rises slightly, to 24.9 percent.
1934
• Congress authorizes creation of the Federal Communications
Commission, the National Mediation Board and the Securities and
Exchange Commission. (More)
• Congress passes the Securities and Exchange Act and the Trade
Agreement Act. (More)
• The economy turns around: GNP rises 7.7 percent, and unemployment
falls to 21.7 percent. A long road to recovery begins.
• Sweden becomes the first nation to recover fully from the Great
Depression. It has followed a policy of Keynesian deficit spending.
(More)
1935
• The Supreme Court declares the National Recovery Administration to
be unconstitutional.
• Congress authorizes creation of the Works Progress Administration,
the National Labor Relations Board and the Rural Electrification
Administration. (More)
• Congress passes the Banking Act of 1935, the Emergency Relief
Appropriation Act, the National Labor Relations Act, and the Social
Security Act. (More)
• Economic recovery continues: the GNP grows another 8.1 percent, and
unemployment falls to 20.1 percent.
1936
• The Supreme Court declares part of the Agricultural Adjustment Act
to be unconstitutional.
• In response, Congress passes the Soil Conservation and Domestic
Allotment Act. (More)
• Top tax rate raised to 79 percent.
• Economic recovery continues: GNP grows a record 14.1 percent;
unemployment falls to 16.9 percent.
• Germany becomes the second nation to recover fully from the Great
Depression, through heavy deficit spending in preparation for war.
1937
• The Supreme Court declares the National Labor Relations Board to be
unconstitutional.
• Roosevelt seeks to enlarge and therefore liberalize the Supreme
Court. This attempt not only fails, but outrages the public.
• Economists attribute economic growth so far to heavy government
spending that is somewhat deficit. Roosevelt, however, fears an
unbalanced budget and cuts spending for 1937. That summer, the nation
plunges into another recession. Despite this, the yearly GNP rises 5.0
percent, and unemployment falls to 14.3 percent.
1938
• Congress passes the Agricultural Adjustment Act of 1938 and the
Fair Labor Standards Act. (More)
• No major New Deal legislation is passed after this date, due to
Roosevelt>s weakened political power.
• The year-long recession makes itself felt: the GNP falls 4.5
percent, and unemployment rises to 19.0 percent.
• Britain becomes the third nation to recover as it begins deficit
spending in preparation for war.
1939
• GNP rises 7.9 percent; unemployment falls to 17.2 percent.
• The United States will begin emerging from the Depression as it
borrows and spends $1 billion to build its armed forces. From 1939 to
1941, when the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor, U.S. manufacturing will
have shot up a phenomenal 50 percent!
• The Depression is ending worldwide as nations prepare for the
coming hostilities.
• World War II starts with Hitler>s invasion of Poland.
1945
• Although the war is the largest tragedy in human history, the
United States emerges as the world>s only economic superpower. Deficit
spending has resulted in a national debt 123 percent the size of the
GDP. By contrast, in 1994, the $4.7 trillion national debt will be
only 70 percent of the GDP!
• The top tax rate is 91 percent. It will stay at least 88 percent
until 1963, when it is lowered to 70 percent. During this time,
America will experience the greatest economic boom it has ever known.
ECONOMIC TIMELINE

The following timeline shows the order of economic events during the
Great Depression. Notice the effect that deficit spending had on
economic growth:

Receipts: Tax receipts as a percentage of the Gross Domestic Product

Spending: Federal spending as a percentage of the Gross Domestic
Product

GNP: Percent change in the Gross National Product

Unemp.: Unemployment rate

Tax Federal GNP Unemp.
Year Receipts Spending Growth Rate
-------------------------------------------------
1929 -- -- -- 3.2% < Hoover era, Great
Depression begins
1930 4.2% 3.4% - 9.4% 8.7
1931 3.7 4.3 - 8.5 15.9
1932 2.9 7.0 -13.4 23.6
1933 3.5 8.1 - 2.1 24.9 < FDR, New Deal begins;
contraction ends March
1934 4.9 10.8 + 7.7 21.7
1935 5.3 9.3 + 8.1 20.1
1936 5.1 10.6 +14.1 16.9
1937 6.2 8.7 + 5.0 14.3 < recession begins, May
1938 7.7 7.8 - 4.5 19.0 < recession ends, June
1939 7.2 10.4 + 7.9 17.2
1940 6.9 9.9
1941 7.7 12.1
1942 10.3 24.8
1943 13.7 44.8
1944 21.7 45.3
1945 21.3 43.7
As you can see, Roosevelt began relatively modest deficit spending
that arrested the slide of the economy and resulted in some
astonishing growth numbers. (Roosevelt>s average growth of 5.2 percent
during the Great Depression is even higher than Reagan>s 3.7 percent
growth during his so-called "Seven Fat Years!") When 1936 saw a
phenomenal record of 14 percent growth, Roosevelt eased back on the
deficit spending, overly worried about balancing the budget. But this
only caused the economy to slip back into a recession, as the above
chart shows.??I have been unable to find reliable economic growth
figures from World War II, but as a generalization it is safe to say
the economy exploded, experiencing it’s greatest growth in U.S.
history. Between 1940 and 1945, the GDP nearly doubled in size, from
$832 billion to $1,559 billion in constant 87 dollars. And this
occurred as deficit spending soared, to levels Keynes had earlier and
unsuccessfully recommended to Roosevelt.??Next Section: Summary?Return
to The Great Depression Homepage??Sources:??T.H. Watkins, The Great
Depression: America in the 1930s (New York: Little, Brown and Company,
1993)??Kevin Phillips, Boiling Point (New York: HarperCollins, 1993)
Kevin Phillips, The Politics of Rich and Poor (New York: Random House,
1990)??The 1995 Grolier Encyclopedia (Entries: New Deal, Depression of
the 30s, Roosevelt, Coolidge.)??The Encyclopedia Brittanica Online
(Entries: New Deal, Great Depression.)??Donald Barlett and James
Steele, America: What Went Wrong? (Kansas City: Andrews and McMeel,
1992)??Donald Barlett and James Steele, America: Who Really Pays the
Taxes? (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1994)??James MacGregor Fox,
Roosevelt: The Lion and the Fox (New York: Konecky and Konecky, 1956)
Elaine Schwartz, Econ 101½ (New York: Avon Books, 1995)??Peter Pugh
and Chris Garratt, Introducing Keynes (Cambridge, England: Icon Books,
Ltd., 1993)??Paul Krugman, Peddling Prosperity (New York: W.W. Norton
and Company, 1994)??Online sources:??History lecture notes:
http://www.marshall.edu/history/mccarthy/hst331/lecture/greatdep.1
Gary H. Stern (President, Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis),
"Achieving Economic Stability: Lessons From the Crash of 1929," 1987
Annual Report Essay, http://woodrow.mpls.frb.fed.us/pubs/ar/ar1987.html
Office of Management and Budget, Budget of the United States
Government, Fiscal Year 1997, Historical Tables 1.2 and 10.1,
http://www.doc.gov/BudgetFY97/histtoc.html
[/quote]
Your post included nearly everything that I already posted except you
left in all of the irrelevant details like Mussolini and such.
You post the same time frames and list the same recessions and yet you
call it a fairy tale.
And all the sudden you can>t find economic references for the war
years?
As I explained, the Davis Bacon act(if you>ve even heard of it) got
rewritten shortly before the start of WWII to include contracts on
military bases. A few months later WWII erupted thus creating enough
government contracts to damn near employ everyone that was not in the
military at the time. And you want to lay that on tax hikes?
Dream on little boy.

"Many of you are well enough off that ... the tax cuts may have helped you," Sen. Clinton said.
"We>re saying that for America to get back on track,
we>re probably going to cut that short and not give it to you.
We>re going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good."

Starkiller · Guest

On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 06:34:59 -0700 (PDT), mg <mgkelson@yahoo.com>
wrote:

[quote]On Oct 10, 6:11 am, Starkiller <NoSpamSKS_SK...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 9 Oct 2008 23:16:48 -0700 (PDT), mg <mgkel...@yahoo.com
wrote:

On Oct 9, 7:59 pm, Starkiller <NoSpamSKS_SK...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 9 Oct 2008 18:26:04 -0700 (PDT), Vide...@tcq.net wrote:
On Oct 9, 8:17 pm, Starkiller <NoSpamSKS_SK...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 09 Oct 2008 17:15:23 -0700, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
You have read my messages for 10 days suggesting you get out of the
stock market. This does not mean you cannot get back, if and when it
stabilizes. Get you money out tomorrow am.

ted

Yeah, pull all your money out and place it in CDs or savings accounts
and let the banks invest in the market. :-)

ah, but its insured in the bank. stocks are not secure, they are a
gamble.

'A government big enough to give you everything you want, is
big enough to take away everything you have.'

so far the free market has lost 2 trillion dollars alone out of 401k
plans recently. and the free market has soaked up 2-4 trillion dollars
of bailout money from labor. you see, labor is bailing out capital,
because capital is so stupid:)
thank god for FDR>s social security:)

"You cannot enrich the poor by impoverishing the rich."

robin hood did:)

He only gave temporary relief and a little charity.

If you destroy the wealthy then who do you think is going to give you
a paycheck? The government that taxes you for their own paycheck?

"Many of you are well enough off that ... the tax cuts may have helped you," Sen. Clinton said.
"We>re saying that for America to get back on track,
we>re probably going to cut that short and not give it to you.
We>re going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good."

Raising taxes on the wealthy, or putting the rates back where they
were before Bush took office won>t destroy the wealthy. Building a
bunch of guillotines and cutting their heads off, though, like the
French did would.

Well, I>m sure the rich would have no problem whatsoever going back to
the rates prior to the Bush tax cuts. They would be paying LESS
taxes.http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/323.html

Learn your facts before simply repeating DNC propaganda.

Nonsense. What is it specifically that you think that site proves?
[/quote]
Apparently you don>t know how to read numbers very well. That or
you>re just the typical lib troll. Proably both.
Try looking at the chart showing income levels and tax levels before
and after the tax cuts.
And then continue spouting off how that proves nothing.
If you aren>t capable of absorbing facts and dicussing them
intelligently, why do you even bother posting?

'A government big enough to give you everything you want, is
big enough to take away everything you have.'

"You cannot enrich the poor by impoverishing the rich."

Starkiller · Guest

On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:12:46 -0700 (PDT), mg <mgkelson@yahoo.com>
wrote:

[quote]On Oct 10, 6:42 am, jim <jim10...@gmail.com> wrote:
[Default] On Thu, 9 Oct 2008 23:16:48 -0700 (PDT), mg

mgkel...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On Oct 9, 7:59 pm, Starkiller <NoSpamSKS_SK...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 9 Oct 2008 18:26:04 -0700 (PDT), Vide...@tcq.net wrote:
On Oct 9, 8:17 pm, Starkiller <NoSpamSKS_SK...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 09 Oct 2008 17:15:23 -0700, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
You have read my messages for 10 days suggesting you get out of the
stock market. This does not mean you cannot get back, if and when it
stabilizes. Get you money out tomorrow am.

ted

Yeah, pull all your money out and place it in CDs or savings accounts
and let the banks invest in the market. :-)

ah, but its insured in the bank. stocks are not secure, they are a
gamble.

'A government big enough to give you everything you want, is
big enough to take away everything you have.'

so far the free market has lost 2 trillion dollars alone out of 401k
plans recently. and the free market has soaked up 2-4 trillion dollars
of bailout money from labor. you see, labor is bailing out capital,
because capital is so stupid:)
thank god for FDR>s social security:)

"You cannot enrich the poor by impoverishing the rich."

robin hood did:)

He only gave temporary relief and a little charity.

If you destroy the wealthy then who do you think is going to give you
a paycheck? The government that taxes you for their own paycheck?

"Many of you are well enough off that ... the tax cuts may have helped you," Sen. Clinton said.
"We>re saying that for America to get back on track,
we>re probably going to cut that short and not give it to you.
We>re going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good."

Raising taxes on the wealthy, or putting the rates back where they
were before Bush took office won>t destroy the wealthy.

What is 'wealthy' and where do they get their money? Bill Gates and
Buffet are certainly in that category. But what about the retiree who
has spent 40 years saving from their income in various ways. They
have a house and may even rent a couple out. They have an IRA account
and other savings. All of it may add up to several million dollars.
But, their income over years was often very modest.

Now in retirement, others see them as being in some small category of
'rich' that could certainly stand being tapped for more taxes.

What is the incentive for anyone to save anything in that situation?
If they do save anything, why would they make their savings known buy
investing publically in stock markets so government could observe and
get into it?

The point is, that to fulfull the Obama promise of lowering taxes on
everyone below 250k will suck a tremendous amount out of the treasury
and there are not enougn in those top numbers to pay the taxes.

Assume you make a million bucks a year. What are you going to do with
your money. Most people making that kind of money will save or spend.
What are the other options. If you save it in a bank account, they
lend it to others to buy cars or homes. If you invest in stocks, the
money increases the capital to capitalize for jobs. If you spend it
on a boat, some boat maker will hire people to makeboats.

This socialism of bringing real incomes closer together by really
nailing the rich bastards and then paying for the needs of those who
really need the stuff of life like free health is wrong and will kill
our economy. Study some history. In the end, the rich bastards are
either gone to other parts of the world or they become poor bastards
too.

We will see an exodus of wealth just like they had in Hong Kong as
they neared reversion to China. Go to many Canadian cities and see
the large number of Chinese who brought their money to invest in
Canada.

Building a

bunch of guillotines and cutting their heads off, though, like the
French did would.

Oh yeah, that will create a lot of jobs eh? And what did many rich
French do in response to this egalitarianism? They went to England,
Germany, the US, South Africa, and other distant parts with their
intellectual wealth leaving France all the poorer.

Do no - DO NOT try to say you are not a socialist. Now go try to find
any place in the world where socialism works to fulfill the promises?
And while you are at it, see who really takes it in the ear. Are the
promises of those coming in power really met?

The next step we will see will be a strong effort to become a
one-party government. Everything possible will be pushed to destroy
media that does not support the liberal/socialist line. Leaders of
industry will be intimidated to bully them to support stronger
centralized government. Anyone who is real competition to Democrats
will be marginalized and if possible criminalized.

Remember what I am saying when you see it. Fucking idiots who have no
understanding of this socialism.

As I have many times before, ultimately most all of the arguments over
taxes, boil down to whether you believe in a progressive tax system or
a regressive tax system. That>s true whether you>re arguing at the
water cooler at the office, or your brother-in-law in your living, or
on these newsgroups. If you believe in a progressive tax system, as I
do, that doesn>t mean you are a socialist. As I>ve also said before, I
don>t believe in the ideology of either the left wingnuts or the right
wingnuts. I believe in using common sense and intelligence to solve
problems.

I have defended the upper middle class many times on these newsgroups
going back for years. Here>s a copy of something I posted on March 31,
2007, for example:

"The top 1% consists of people making more than $328,049. An upper
middle-class, professional couple who have worked hard and went to
school half of their life could probably make this much quite easily
by the time they get to be about 50 years old and have managed to
slowly climb the ladder of success. What is telling, though, is that
this couple is paying at almost the same rate as a CEO, for example,
who is making $100 million. That>s an example of how the middle class
gets screwed, in my opinion.

Speaking of numbers, here>s an interesting one: The top 1% have 39.7%
of the financial wealth in the U.S. The bottom 80% only have about
8.8% of the financial wealth. However, most of the taxes the idle rich
pay is based on capital gains and dividend payments which are taxed at
a
rate of 15%. In other words, a billionaire cashing dividend checks
pays at almost half the rate as the upper middle-class couple who have
worked their entire life to achieve the American dream.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html
http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html "
[/quote]
From your cite:

The top-earning 25 percent of taxpayers (AGI over $64,702) earned 68.2
percent of the nation>s income, but they paid more than four out of
every five dollars collected by the federal income tax (86.3 percent).
The top 1 percent of taxpayers (AGI over $388,806) earned
approximately 22.1 percent of the nation>s income (as defined by AGI),
yet paid 39.9 percent of all federal income taxes. That means the top
1 percent of tax returns paid about the same amount of federal
individual income taxes as the bottom 95 percent of tax returns.

And

The 2003 tax cut was the second in three years, and although tax rates
are lower, the federal income tax still remains highly progressive.
The average tax rate in 2006 ranges from 3.0 percent of income for the
bottom half of tax returns to 22.8 percent for the top 1 percent.

'A government big enough to give you everything you want, is
big enough to take away everything you have.'

"You cannot enrich the poor by impoverishing the rich."

Starkiller · Guest

On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:59:07 -0700, retrogrouch@comcast.net wrote:

[quote]On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 12:42:45 GMT, jim <jim10293@gmail.com> wrote:

Raising taxes on the wealthy, or putting the rates back where they
were before Bush took office won>t destroy the wealthy.

What is 'wealthy' and where do they get their money? Bill Gates and
Buffet are certainly in that category. But what about the retiree who
has spent 40 years saving from their income in various ways. They
have a house and may even rent a couple out. They have an IRA account
and other savings. All of it may add up to several million dollars.
But, their income over years was often very modest.

And we>re talking an INCOME tax. Sheesh. Savings are not covered by
it. Are you confused or trying intentionally to create fear through
introducing confusion?
[/quote]
Guess you>ve never filled out a tax form have you?
If you had you would see the line for "interest and divident income"
which is part of your total taxable income. I have to list a few
bucks there every year from interest paid on my savings.
And your IRA is subject to income tax the minute you start to draw it
out.

'A government big enough to give you everything you want, is
big enough to take away everything you have.'

"You cannot enrich the poor by impoverishing the rich."

*Poetic Justice* · Guest

haterofneocons@yahoo.com wrote:
[quote]On Oct 9, 10:01 pm, *Poetic Justice* <@http://Poetic-Justice.Talk-n-
Dog.com> wrote:
retrogro...@comcast.net wrote:
On Thu, 9 Oct 2008 18:26:04 -0700 (PDT), Vide...@tcq.net wrote:
so far the free market has lost 2 trillion dollars alone out of 401k
plans recently.
and that was before today>s 700 point drop
What did you expect when Obama wants to Double the taxes on capital
gains.... take all your gains now before he gets a chance to steal
twice as much of your money. It>s only the smart thing to do when you
get a Socialist Obama that might actually win.

Cite, please? Or are you on his council of advisers and giving this
info to us directly from him?

[/quote]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpSDBu35K-8

[quote]Be prepared... things won>t be getting better if Obama wins and taxes
everything.

[/quote]

--
*Liberal Commandments*
1. Thou shalt always be a victim.
2. Spend thy Neighbors money to keep your Brothers in the comfort zone,
that which makes him happy.
3. That which is not Liberal is Evil, use any means possible to promote
Liberal/socialist agenda.
4. Do not covet Success and achievement, teach others to strive for
mediocrity.
5. Show your enemy your Bluster, before whining like a child.
6. Government is the only religion of man, serve no other cause.
7. Tithe all you have and will have to our cause, for that which is not
spent, will come back.
8. Believe in unconditional Peace and Love, so then shall you become
self important and omnipotent.
9. The truth of everything is that which you make it.
10. Life is above all else... until it would interfere with ones choice.

*Poetic Justice* · Guest

haterofneocons@yahoo.com wrote:
[quote]On Oct 9, 10:01 pm, *Poetic Justice* <@http://Poetic-Justice.Talk-n-
Dog.com> wrote:
retrogro...@comcast.net wrote:
On Thu, 9 Oct 2008 18:26:04 -0700 (PDT), Vide...@tcq.net wrote:
so far the free market has lost 2 trillion dollars alone out of 401k
plans recently.
and that was before today>s 700 point drop
What did you expect when Obama wants to Double the taxes on capital
gains.... take all your gains now before he gets a chance to steal
twice as much of your money. It>s only the smart thing to do when you
get a Socialist Obama that might actually win.

Cite, please? Or are you on his council of advisers and giving this
info to us directly from him?

[/quote]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpSDBu35K-8

[quote]Be prepared... things won>t be getting better if Obama wins and taxes
everything.

[/quote]

--
*Liberal Commandments*
1. Thou shalt always be a victim.
2. Spend thy Neighbors money to keep your Brothers in the comfort zone,
that which makes him happy.
3. That which is not Liberal is Evil, use any means possible to promote
Liberal/socialist agenda.
4. Do not covet Success and achievement, teach others to strive for
mediocrity.
5. Show your enemy your Bluster, before whining like a child.
6. Government is the only religion of man, serve no other cause.
7. Tithe all you have and will have to our cause, for that which is not
spent, will come back.
8. Believe in unconditional Peace and Love, so then shall you become
self important and omnipotent.
9. The truth of everything is that which you make it.
10. Life is above all else... until it would interfere with ones choice.

Guest

On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 17:51:41 -0500, Starkiller
<NoSpamSKS_SKanz@hotmail.com> wrote:

[quote]On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:59:07 -0700, retrogrouch@comcast.net wrote:

On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 12:42:45 GMT, jim <jim10293@gmail.com> wrote:

Raising taxes on the wealthy, or putting the rates back where they
were before Bush took office won>t destroy the wealthy.

What is 'wealthy' and where do they get their money? Bill Gates and
Buffet are certainly in that category. But what about the retiree who
has spent 40 years saving from their income in various ways. They
have a house and may even rent a couple out. They have an IRA account
and other savings. All of it may add up to several million dollars.
But, their income over years was often very modest.

And we>re talking an INCOME tax. Sheesh. Savings are not covered by
it. Are you confused or trying intentionally to create fear through
introducing confusion?

Guess you>ve never filled out a tax form have you?
If you had you would see the line for "interest and divident income"
which is part of your total taxable income. I have to list a few
bucks there every year from interest paid on my savings.
And your IRA is subject to income tax the minute you start to draw it
out.
[/quote]

What a lame ass dodge. Savings are not taxed. Give it up. You were
caught lying. Again. Shameless. Typical GOP liar. No integrity.

mg · Guest

On Oct 10, 4:32 pm, Starkiller <NoSpamSKS_SK...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[quote]On Fri, 10 Oct 2008 06:34:59 -0700 (PDT), mg <mgkel...@yahoo.com
wrote:

On Oct 10, 6:11 am, Starkiller <NoSpamSKS_SK...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 9 Oct 2008 23:16:48 -0700 (PDT), mg <mgkel...@yahoo.com
wrote:

On Oct 9, 7:59 pm, Starkiller <NoSpamSKS_SK...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 9 Oct 2008 18:26:04 -0700 (PDT), Vide...@tcq.net wrote:
On Oct 9, 8:17 pm, Starkiller <NoSpamSKS_SK...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, 09 Oct 2008 17:15:23 -0700, wis...@yahoo.com wrote:
You have read my messages for 10 days suggesting you get out of the
stock market. This does not mean you cannot get back, if and when it
stabilizes. Get you money out tomorrow am.

ted

Yeah, pull all your money out and place it in CDs or savings accounts
and let the banks invest in the market. :-)

ah, but its insured in the bank. stocks are not secure, they are a
gamble.

'A government big enough to give you everything you want, is
big enough to take away everything you have.'

so far the free market has lost 2 trillion dollars alone out of 401k
plans recently. and the free market has soaked up 2-4 trillion dollars
of bailout money from labor. you see, labor is bailing out capital,
because capital is so stupid:)
thank god for FDR>s social security:)

"You cannot enrich the poor by impoverishing the rich."

robin hood did:)

He only gave temporary relief and a little charity.

If you destroy the wealthy then who do you think is going to give you
a paycheck? The government that taxes you for their own paycheck?

"Many of you are well enough off that ... the tax cuts may have helped you," Sen. Clinton said.
"We>re saying that for America to get back on track,
we>re probably going to cut that short and not give it to you.
We>re going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good."

Raising taxes on the wealthy, or putting the rates back where they
were before Bush took office won>t destroy the wealthy. Building a
bunch of guillotines and cutting their heads off, though, like the
French did would.

Well, I>m sure the rich would have no problem whatsoever going back to
the rates prior to the Bush tax cuts. They would be paying LESS
taxes.http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/323.html

Learn your facts before simply repeating DNC propaganda.

Nonsense. What is it specifically that you think that site proves?

Apparently you don>t know how to read numbers very well. That or
you>re just the typical lib troll. Proably both.
Try looking at the chart showing income levels and tax levels before
and after the tax cuts.
And then continue spouting off how that proves nothing.
If you aren>t capable of absorbing facts and dicussing them
intelligently, why do you even bother posting?

'A government big enough to give you everything you want, is
big enough to take away everything you have.'

"You cannot enrich the poor by impoverishing the rich."
[/quote]
You said:

"Well, I>m sure the rich would have no problem whatsoever going back
to the rates prior to the Bush tax cuts. They would be paying LESS
taxes.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/323.html "

The Bush tax cuts reduced the capital gains tax from a maximum of 20%
to 15%. The Bush tax cuts reduced the income tax rate for millionaires
from 39.6% to 35%.

So, why do you believe that if we reversed these cuts, the rich would
pay less taxes? The website you referenced makes no predictions about
what would happen if the tax rates were restored back to where they
were.

Also, why do you believe the rich would have "no problem whatsoever
going back to the rates prior to the Bush tax cuts"?


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