Science and Technology news... :: View topic - Best strategies for bilingual language acquisition? (inter-c

Joachim Pense · Guest

Peter T. Daniels (in sci.lang):

[quote]On Jul 28, 10:00 am, "Jens S. Larsen" <jens_s_lar...@yahoo.dk> wrote:
Craoibhi:

On Jul 27, 10:42 pm, Sonja Elen Kisa <sonj...@gmail.com> wrote:
What are the best strategies to use to raise a bilingual child in this
situation:
The best strategy is, that everyone speaks his or her native language
in a natural way. Period.

If they can, that is. Not everybody have a command of their native
language to speak it naturally,

Actually, by definition, they do.

[/quote]
So if someone loses the native language, it is by definition not the native
language anymore?

Joachim

John Atkinson · Guest

analyst41@hotmail.com wrote:
[quote]On Jul 27, 4:16 pm, Nathan Sanders <nsand...@williams.edu> wrote:
Sonja Elen Kisa <sonj...@gmail.com> wrote:

What are the best strategies to use to raise a bilingual child in
this situation:

Language A:
-minority language that the parents want to preserve by teaching as
the baby>s primary language
-mother>s native language
-father knows the basics
-small school system (and maybe babysitters or kindergarten)
available in this language, which child will attend

Language B:
-very dominant cultural language in the area and all media
-father>s native language
-mother also fluent
-language used when mother and father talk to each other

For example, the couple could raise the child exclusively in
language A until the child reaches a certain age or reaches certain
linguistic milestones (what time is best?), then the father could
switch to his own language B when speaking to the child, and the
child would learn to use A with mom and B with dad?

Children raised in bilingual households learn both languages without
confusion. There>s no need to stagger the languages by waiting to use
one. In fact, if you wait too long, this could lead to imperfect
acquisition of that language---even just waiting two years could
potentially impair their acquisition of native-level phonetics.

Use both languages as much as you can from the very beginning, and
not just directly with the child, but also around them when talking
to other people. Children acquire language from wherever they hear
it, regardless of whether it>s directed toward them or not.

Make sure the child is exposed to both languages in different
environments other than just at home, from people other than just the
parents. Many bilinguals report feeling very differently about their
languages, with one language perceived as "for home only" or "for
adults only", which often leads to them devaluing or ignoring this
language in daily use as their social circles outside the home become
more prominent.

A friend takes his very young children (the younger one may be around
2) to French classes under the assumption that it is beneficial
somehow (my guesses - it would even help acquire English better or
perhaps generally improve cognitive abilities).
[/quote]
What do you mean by "French classes" here? Do you mean the same thing
as the "language nests" in Maori and Hawaiian, essentially kindergartens
or child-minding centres run by native speakers who speak only the
language there and encourage the kids to do likewise. These do seem to
be quite effective in cases where the parents are non-speakers or
semi-speakers who want their kids to grow up with the language.

OTOH, if you mean classes intended for adult learners, the advantage
would probably be more with the other learners, who would be able to
practise their budding skills while playing with the kids in a less
self-conscious environment than the usual contrived "conversation
sessions". Any French the kids picked up would be non-native learners'
French, which I suppose would be better than nothing.

John.

John Atkinson · Guest

Peter T. Daniels wrote:
[quote]On Jul 28, 10:00 am, "Jens S. Larsen" <jens_s_lar...@yahoo.dk> wrote:
Craoibhi:

On Jul 27, 10:42 pm, Sonja Elen Kisa <sonj...@gmail.com> wrote:
What are the best strategies to use to raise a bilingual child in
this situation:
The best strategy is, that everyone speaks his or her native
language in a natural way. Period.

If they can, that is. Not everybody have a command of their native
language to speak it naturally,

Actually, by definition, they do.
[/quote]
Of course. But I read Jens to mean something like "ancestral language"
here, not "native language" in the usual technical sense.

[...]

John.

Peter T. Daniels · Guest

On Jul 29, 8:25 am, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
[quote]On 2008-07-28, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

A friend takes his very young children (the younger one may be around
2) to French classes under the assumption that it is beneficial
somehow (my guesses - it would even help acquire English better or
perhaps generally improve cognitive abilities).

If he wants them to acquire French, he should send them to play with a
group of French-speaking children of the same age. If he wants them to
acquire English, he shold send them to play with a group of English-
speaking children of the same age. The notion of "language classes"
for small children is just silly -- they acquire languages naturally,
not by "studying" them!

Of course! But if there aren>t any French-speaking children
available, wouldn>t the language classes be better than nothing?
[/quote]
What have you observed of the attention span of a child that age?

Guest

On Jul 29, 6:00 am, "John Atkinson" <johna...@bigpond.com> wrote:
[quote]Peter T. Daniels wrote:
On Jul 28, 10:00 am, "Jens S. Larsen" <jens_s_lar...@yahoo.dk> wrote:
Craoibhi:

On Jul 27, 10:42 pm, Sonja Elen Kisa <sonj...@gmail.com> wrote:
What are the best strategies to use to raise a bilingual child in
this situation:
The best strategy is, that everyone speaks his or her native
language in a natural way. Period.

If they can, that is. Not everybody have a command of their native
language to speak it naturally,

Actually, by definition, they do.

Of course. But I read Jens to mean something like "ancestral language"
here, not "native language" in the usual technical sense.
[/quote]
Well, that is different. Maybe we should devise a new term, because
there indeed is much misuse of the term "native languags". I once got
difficulties with some nationalistic Irishman, when I said on the Web
that Brendan Behan wrote good Irish although it wasn>t his native
language. My point was, that Behan had had to learn it as a second
language, but my opponent saw it differently: in his view the "native
language" was simply one>s ethnic, ancestral language.

This is of course a widespread view among Irish nationalists, but a
mixed blessing for those who actually speak it as their first language.

Trond Engen · Guest

(I>ve written several messages in other threads this morning, but it
seems that my Teranews account is holding them back. If, or when, will
this one get through?)

Sonja Elen Kisa skreiv:

[quote]What are the best strategies to use to raise a bilingual child in
this situation:

Language A:
-minority language that the parents want to preserve by teaching as
the baby>s primary language
-mother>s native language
-father knows the basics
-small school system (and maybe babysitters or kindergarten)
available in this language, which child will attend

Language B:
-very dominant cultural language in the area and all media
-father>s native language
-mother also fluent
-language used when mother and father talk to each other

For example, the couple could raise the child exclusively in language
A until the child reaches a certain age or reaches certain linguistic
milestones (what time is best?), then the father could switch to his
own language B when speaking to the child, and the child would learn
to use A with mom and B with dad?
[/quote]
You>ve got your answers. I just thought I>d mention the case of my
nephews who are now 5 and 4 years old.

Until last summer they were raised in French in a totally French
environment by a Norwegian mother and a French father. My sister
intended to speak only Norwegian with them, but since all her other
communication, including with her husband, was in French, she didn>t
manage to keep her intentions, and the children were actively avoiding
her half-hearted attempts (or so is my interpretation).

One year ago these days they moved to Norway. They continued to speak
only French at home, but the boys go to kindergarten every day. The
youngest one, a very active child, picked up Norwegian in a few weeks.
His older brother is very shy. It took him almost a year. I>m told that
when their mother speak Norwegian with them now, they speak with the
Bergen dialect of their friends and do no attempt to adjust to her
eastern-like idiolect. Which, I suppose, tells that they behave like
native speakers.

(Sideline: The boy was so shy, actually, that he hardly spoke when away
from home in France. This led to a major crash between my sister and the
French school system, and her conviction that her son needed to play
with friends, rather than to be educated, was an important part of the
decision to move. It seems that she was right -- he>s now speaking two
languages and is far less shy.)

--
Trond Engen
- father of a daughter who hated France this summer because no-one
understood her.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Guest

On Jul 28, 10:55 pm, "John Atkinson" <johna...@bigpond.com> wrote:
[quote]analys...@hotmail.com wrote:
On Jul 27, 4:16 pm, Nathan Sanders <nsand...@williams.edu> wrote:
Sonja Elen Kisa <sonj...@gmail.com> wrote:

What are the best strategies to use to raise a bilingual child in
this situation:

Language A:
-minority language that the parents want to preserve by teaching as
the baby>s primary language
-mother>s native language
-father knows the basics
-small school system (and maybe babysitters or kindergarten)
available in this language, which child will attend

Language B:
-very dominant cultural language in the area and all media
-father>s native language
-mother also fluent
-language used when mother and father talk to each other

For example, the couple could raise the child exclusively in
language A until the child reaches a certain age or reaches certain
linguistic milestones (what time is best?), then the father could
switch to his own language B when speaking to the child, and the
child would learn to use A with mom and B with dad?

Children raised in bilingual households learn both languages without
confusion. There>s no need to stagger the languages by waiting to use
one. In fact, if you wait too long, this could lead to imperfect
acquisition of that language---even just waiting two years could
potentially impair their acquisition of native-level phonetics.

Use both languages as much as you can from the very beginning, and
not just directly with the child, but also around them when talking
to other people. Children acquire language from wherever they hear
it, regardless of whether it>s directed toward them or not.

Make sure the child is exposed to both languages in different
environments other than just at home, from people other than just the
parents. Many bilinguals report feeling very differently about their
languages, with one language perceived as "for home only" or "for
adults only", which often leads to them devaluing or ignoring this
language in daily use as their social circles outside the home become
more prominent.

A friend takes his very young children (the younger one may be around
2) to French classes under the assumption that it is beneficial
somehow (my guesses - it would even help acquire English better or
perhaps generally improve cognitive abilities).

What do you mean by "French classes" here? Do you mean the same thing
as the "language nests" in Maori and Hawaiian, essentially kindergartens
or child-minding centres run by native speakers who speak only the
language there and encourage the kids to do likewise. These do seem to
be quite effective in cases where the parents are non-speakers or
semi-speakers who want their kids to grow up with the language.

[/quote]
since we are talking about a very young child 2-3 years old, it has to
be of this type (I>ll ask my friend when I see him next). One thing
he boasted about was that his kid could figure out that "balloon" is
"le balon" (or some such thing, as I recall) in French, along with
the French pronunciation.

[quote]OTOH, if you mean classes intended for adult learners, the advantage
would probably be more with the other learners, who would be able to
practise their budding skills while playing with the kids in a less
self-conscious environment than the usual contrived "conversation
sessions". Any French the kids picked up would be non-native learners'
French, which I suppose would be better than nothing.

John.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -[/quote]

Peter T. Daniels · Guest

On Jul 29, 9:21 am, Craoibhi...@gmail.com wrote:
[quote]On Jul 29, 6:00 am, "John Atkinson" <johna...@bigpond.com> wrote:

Peter T. Daniels wrote:
On Jul 28, 10:00 am, "Jens S. Larsen" <jens_s_lar...@yahoo.dk> wrote:
Craoibhi:

On Jul 27, 10:42 pm, Sonja Elen Kisa <sonj...@gmail.com> wrote:
What are the best strategies to use to raise a bilingual child in
this situation:
The best strategy is, that everyone speaks his or her native
language in a natural way. Period.

If they can, that is. Not everybody have a command of their native
language to speak it naturally,

Actually, by definition, they do.

Of course. But I read Jens to mean something like "ancestral language"
here, not "native language" in the usual technical sense.

Well, that is different. Maybe we should devise a new term, because
there indeed is much misuse of the term "native languags". I once got
difficulties with some nationalistic Irishman, when I said on the Web
that Brendan Behan wrote good Irish although it wasn>t his native
language. My point was, that Behan had had to learn it as a second
language, but my opponent saw it differently: in his view the "native
language" was simply one>s ethnic, ancestral language.

This is of course a widespread view among Irish nationalists, but a
mixed blessing for those who actually speak it as their first language.
[/quote]
Looks like your nationalists, and Jens, are taking "native" to be an
adjective for "nation" (which it ain>t). "National" would be fine in
both instances, and especially in the European mystical sense of
"nation.".

Adam Funk · Guest

On 2008-07-28, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

[quote]A friend takes his very young children (the younger one may be around
2) to French classes under the assumption that it is beneficial
somehow (my guesses - it would even help acquire English better or
perhaps generally improve cognitive abilities).

If he wants them to acquire French, he should send them to play with a
group of French-speaking children of the same age. If he wants them to
acquire English, he shold send them to play with a group of English-
speaking children of the same age. The notion of "language classes"
for small children is just silly -- they acquire languages naturally,
not by "studying" them!
[/quote]
Of course! But if there aren>t any French-speaking children
available, wouldn>t the language classes be better than nothing?

--
"Why do the most demanding of books have words like _basic_,
_introductory_, and _elementary_ in their titles? Why not have a
title like _Exceedingly Difficult Ways to Forecast Weather Using
Giant, Complicated, and Stunningly Expensive Machines?" (McMullen 2001)

Adam Funk · Guest

On 2008-07-29, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

[quote]Of course! But if there aren>t any French-speaking children
available, wouldn>t the language classes be better than nothing?

What have you observed of the attention span of a child that age?
[/quote]
Heh. I haven>t seen the particular classes in question, but somehow I
doubt they are modelled on university lectures. (Knuth relates that
he was once invited to give a sermon at his church and, out of habit,
ended up delivering a 50-minute lecture; he wasn>t asked to do it
again.)

(I>ve seen nurseries where toddlers do learn quite a lot and have fun
at the same time, but I haven>t seen any that were oriented towards
foreign-language teaching.)

--
Do not use _literally_ to intensify a metaphorical exaggeration.
People in a famine relief camp may be _literally_ starving, but
it is not a thing to say about oneself towards lunchtime.
(Gowers, _The Complete Plain Words_)

Peter T. Daniels · Guest

On Jul 29, 5:54 am, Trond Engen <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote:

[quote]--
Trond Engen
- father of a daughter who hated France this summer because no-one
understood her.
[/quote]
That would be every 14-year-old girl in the world ...

Dan McGrath · Guest

On Jul 28, 7:38 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]On those sad butrareoccasions, they no longer have a native
language.
[/quote]
Why did you say "rare"?

--
Daniel G. McGrath
Binghamton, New York

Peter T. Daniels · Guest

On Jul 31, 10:09 am, Dan McGrath <dmcg6...@gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]On Jul 28, 7:38 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:

On those sad butrareoccasions, they no longer have a native
language.

Why did you say "rare"?
[/quote]
Because they don>t happen often.

Why did you ask me why I said "rare"?


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