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António Marques
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 Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:39 pm Post subject: Re: Spanish and Arabic for 'duck' |
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António Marques wrote:
[quote]What it suggests is that I should sleep more.
[/quote]
Get more sleep, &c.
--
António Marques
--
This signature does not include a prefab parting phrase
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Douglas G. Kilday
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:07 pm Post subject: Re: Spanish and Arabic for 'duck' |
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Harlan Messinger wrote:
[quote]Italo wrote:
Douglas G. Kilday wrote:
I find it implausible that Spanish would devoice only one or two
Arabic loanwords in /ba-/ to /pa-/,
There is patache < batash (type of ship)
Interestingly, rae.es says "infl. por *pato*", which seems to beg the
question.
Well, this is interesting. Under "pato" they have "Del ár. hisp. páṭṭ,
este del ár. clás. baṭṭ, y este del persa bat". So did *Iberian Arabic*
develop /p/ where Classical Arabic had /b/?
[/quote]
Not as a rule, even when the Arabic /b/ came from Persian /p/. See
<babucha> 'zapato ligero y sin tacón, usado principalmente por los
moros', del ár. <ba:bu:j> o <ba:bu:s^>, y éste del persa <pa:pu:s^>,
'lo que cubre el pie'. The only good reason I can see for this is
that *patta or *pattus 'duck' was already in use in Iberia before the
Arabs arrived, and so it was locally Arabized as <paTT> in those
dialects that distinguished /p/. This resembled the Persian loanword
<baT(T)> by mere coincidence, so far as I can tell.
The number of Spanish words with initial /b/ representing Arabic /b/
is far too large to list here. Preservation of this /b/ in these
loanwords was clearly regular. |
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Peter T. Daniels
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:48 pm Post subject: Re: Spanish and Arabic for 'duck' |
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On Jul 28, 6:07 pm, "Douglas G. Kilday" <fufl...@chorus.net> wrote:
[quote]Harlan Messinger wrote:
Italo wrote:
Douglas G. Kilday wrote:
I find it implausible that Spanish would devoice only one or two
Arabic loanwords in /ba-/ to /pa-/,
There is patache < batash (type of ship)
Interestingly, rae.es says "infl. por *pato*", which seems to beg the
question.
Well, this is interesting. Under "pato" they have "Del ár. hisp. páṭṭ,
este del ár. clás. baṭṭ, y este del persa bat". So did *Iberian Arabic*
develop /p/ where Classical Arabic had /b/?
Not as a rule, even when the Arabic /b/ came from Persian /p/. See
[/quote]
How would an Iberian (or anyone else) have known whether an Arabic /b/
came from a Semitic *b or a Persian p?
[quote]babucha> 'zapato ligero y sin tacón, usado principalmente por los
moros', del ár. <ba:bu:j> o <ba:bu:s^>, y éste del persa <pa:pu:s^>,
'lo que cubre el pie'. The only good reason I can see for this is
that *patta or *pattus 'duck' was already in use in Iberia before the
Arabs arrived, and so it was locally Arabized as <paTT> in those
dialects that distinguished /p/. This resembled the Persian loanword
baT(T)> by mere coincidence, so far as I can tell.
The number of Spanish words with initial /b/ representing Arabic /b/
is far too large to list here. Preservation of this /b/ in these
loanwords was clearly regular.[/quote] |
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Trond Engen
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:55 pm Post subject: Re: Spanish and Arabic for 'duck' |
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Peter T. Daniels skreiv:
[quote]On Jul 28, 6:07 pm, "Douglas G. Kilday" <fufl...@chorus.net> wrote:
Harlan Messinger wrote:
Italo wrote:
Douglas G. Kilday wrote:
I find it implausible that Spanish would devoice only one or two
Arabic loanwords in /ba-/ to /pa-/,
There is patache < batash (type of ship)
Interestingly, rae.es says "infl. por *pato*", which seems to beg
the question.
Well, this is interesting. Under "pato" they have "Del ár. hisp.
páṭṭ, este del ár. clás. baṭṭ, y este del persa bat". So did *Iberian
Arabic* develop /p/ where Classical Arabic had /b/?
Not as a rule, even when the Arabic /b/ came from Persian /p/.
How would an Iberian (or anyone else) have known whether an Arabic
/b/ came from a Semitic *b or a Persian p?
[/quote]
By still at the time of the loan maintaining a subtle difference not
visible in written sources? That would probably require another phoneme,
though.
--
Trond Engen
- if you can>t read>em, phoneme
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Peter T. Daniels
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| Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:15 am Post subject: Re: Spanish and Arabic for 'duck' |
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On Jul 29, 4:55 am, Trond Engen <trond...@engen.priv.no> wrote:
[quote]Peter T. Daniels skreiv:
On Jul 28, 6:07 pm, "Douglas G. Kilday" <fufl...@chorus.net> wrote:
Harlan Messinger wrote:
Italo wrote:
Douglas G. Kilday wrote:
I find it implausible that Spanish would devoice only one or two
Arabic loanwords in /ba-/ to /pa-/,
There is patache < batash (type of ship)
Interestingly, rae.es says "infl. por *pato*", which seems to beg
the question.
Well, this is interesting. Under "pato" they have "Del ár. hisp.
páṭṭ, este del ár. clás. baṭṭ, y este del persa bat". So did *Iberian
Arabic* develop /p/ where Classical Arabic had /b/?
Not as a rule, even when the Arabic /b/ came from Persian /p/.
How would an Iberian (or anyone else) have known whether an Arabic
/b/ came from a Semitic *b or a Persian p?
By still at the time of the loan maintaining a subtle difference not
visible in written sources? That would probably require another phoneme,
though.
[/quote]
Loanwords don>t usually bring loan phonetics with them!
(An exception is the intervocalic voicing contrast in English, which
was the result of the flood of French words in the 12th century.) |
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lorad
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:23 am Post subject: Re: Spanish and Arabic for 'duck' |
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On Jul 19, 5:35am, Italo <ola...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote]Douglas G. Kilday wrote:
Italo wrote:
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
Douglas G. Kilday wrote:
[...]
As a non-Semitist, I would like to know whether
there is any objection on the Arabic side to seeing
bat.t.> as a loanword from Latin/ Romance, such as
ancient cognates in other Semitic languages.
Georgian <bat.i> 'goose' and some similar North
Caucasian words for 'duck' are likely borrowed from
Arabic.
Brockelmann Lexicon Syriacum has baTaa (consonant
length not marked) 'anas' (is that 'duck'?) < Pers.
D. Cohen Dictionnaire des racines semitiques has
baTTaa 'canard' only in Syr and Ar but doesn>t offer
an origin. How would you choose between Persian and
Latin?
How about Egyptian? bDA = goose.
http://www.wordgumbo.com/aa/egy/beinlich.txt
That seems not to have survived into Coptic, so perhaps
it was a loanword from some West African language, and
possibly related to the ancestor of Sp./Port. 'duck'. We
do have pre-Punic place-name elements like -ippo on both
sides of the Straits of Gibraltar. However, other
examples with comparable phonetic correspondences are
required to make such a connection plausible.
19 different words for goose in that Egyptian wordlist does
suggest loanwords. But Egypt is slightly closer to Persia
than to Gibraltar. Perhaps the Egyptian word only goes back
to the Persian period, i.e. after 525BC? Arabs were in Egypt
at that time too.
Is there any possibility that Spanish <pata> 'duck' may be
connected to 'boat', O.E. <bat>? (reminds me of
Vogelbarke type ships, btw.)
[/quote]
Standard interpretation appears to be different:
"boat
O.E. bat, from P.Gmc. *bait- (cf. O.N. beit), possibly from PIE base
*bheid- "to split" (see fissure), with the sense of making a boat by
hollowing out a tree trunk; or it may be an extension of the name for
a part of a ship."
- The Old Norse cf appears convincing.. to me at least
The 'pata' looks to be an obvious linear development of IE semi-
ubiquitous Gk. 'ptera'; Latvian 'putns', 'putenis'; russian
'petiitska'..etc.
People should remember that the Vandalic and Gothic tribes that
settled in Iberia came from the Baltic-Vistula region.
And Greek colonies in Iberia even preceeded them. |
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lorad
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:59 am Post subject: Re: Spanish and Arabic for 'duck' |
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On Jul 20, 1:41 pm, Dušan Vukotić <dusan.vuko...@gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]On Jul 19, 2:35 pm, Italo <ola...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Is there any possibility that Spanish <pata> 'duck' may be
connected to 'boat', O.E. <bat>? (reminds me of
Vogelbarke type ships, btw.)- Hide quoted text -
Italo asked a very interesting question. Indeed, is it possible that
Spanish pata is related to English boat?
[/quote]
Yes, it was a good question.
Now.. are you ready for more vinegar?
[quote]In Slavic languages duck is
derived from the noun voda (water) or the verb plutat/ploviti/plivati
(swim, float; Russ. плавать; Cz. plavit; OSl плавати float).
[/quote]
No, I don>t think so. 'Duck' can>t have a source of two different
roots.
[quote]Russian
утка/utka (duck) is a water animal (Russ. водяной); i.e. utka could be
v-utka similar to the Russian diminutive of voda (vodka/votka; Serbian
vodica/votkica /a small water/ => patkica /a small duck/).
[/quote]
What a smearing, Vukotitch..
Please organize your arguments better... and stop mashing disparate
roots together.
The closest IE root for your Russian 'utka' is Umbrian 'utur'.
But since no known historic linkage exists between Umbrian and
Russian, we must look for more logical sources.
Hittite: watar n.?
- Close but no ceegar.
"Old Indian: una´tti, undati `to flow, spring (as water); to wet,
bathe', udaka´-, loc. uda´n(i)" ?
- Very nice but rather distant.
Old Greek: hµ´dr ?
- Also nice but rather distant.
Baltic: Lithuanian 'vanduo' ?
- Not quite.
Baltic Latvian 'udens' ? 'udens' - 'utka'
- Yes. Probably closest chronological and geographical source.
[quote]Lithuanian antis (duck; cf. Sp. ánade, Ger. Ente, Lat. anas) sounds
very close to the Lithuanian word v-anduo (water), where the initial
sound v is omitted.
[/quote]
'Antis' and 'vanduo' look to be related.. but are not closely related
to 'utka' at all.
[quote]Old Hindi ātíṣ ("the water animal") clearly
corresponds to Russian utka (duck) and to the Sanskrit noun udaka
(water; Skt. udaka <=> Russ. utka).
[/quote]
Skt. is rather too distant to be a likely source in both place and
time.
Latvian 'udens' ; 'udens' - 'utka' is the closest probable
correspondence.
[quote]English duck appeared to be related to the second syllable of the
Serbian word patak (drake; cf. Ir. bu-dhaigir ducker, puffin); i.e. it
might be related to Serbian tonuti (dunk), from po-tonuti or po-
tanjati, po-tanja (immerse into a liquid, plunge).
[/quote]
I don>t think so. Read this:
"duck (n.1)
O.E. duce (found only in gen. ducan) "a duck," lit. "a ducker,"
presumed to be from O.E. *ducan "to duck" (see duck (v.)), replaced
O.E. ened as the name for the bird, this being from PIE *aneti-, the
root of the "duck" noun in most I.E. languages."
So.. we can see that the English 'duck' ('ened') used to be derived
from a source rather closely related to Lithuanian 'antis'.. but not
to 'utka' nor 'patak'.
Why?
Because the current usage of E. noun 'duck' is assume to be derived
from O.E. verb *ducan "to duck".
(and I have found alternative corroborating evidence for this)
Unless the Serbian 'patak' involves the meaning of moving under water
it is d.o.a.
[quote]In Serbian duck is called either plovka or patka. Both words are
clearly related to the verb "float" and IE root *pleu-, *plud-.
[/quote]
Correct. (at last)... Your Serbian 'plovka' is indeed associated with
water...
But has *nothing* to do with 'utka', 'voda', 'vodka', 'antis',
'ánade', 'ente', 'anas', 'vanduo', 'vodico'.. or any of the many other
roots that you have, again, mashed together.
[quote]It
means that Serb. patka is derived from *plut-; i.e. from plutka =
platka => patka (an animal that floats on water; Serb. plutati /
float/). In the similar way was formed the Serbian word potok (brook),
which is a stream of water shallower than river, and therefore Serb.
plitak (shallow).
[/quote]
Oh jeez..
Why areyou mashing *plut with 'potok'?
They are two completely different roots meaing two different actions.
''Tok' means 'to go' or 'to flow'..
While 'Plu' or 'Plo' indicates 'floating' (associated with high
water)..
"flood (n.)
O.E. flod "a flowing of water, river, sea, flood," from P.Gmc.
*flothuz (cf. O.Fris. flod, O.N. floð, M.Du. vloet, Ger. Flut, Goth.
fiodus), from PIE verbal stem *plo-/*pleu- "flow, float" (cf. Gk.
ploein "to float, swim," plotos "floating, navigable"). The verb is
first attested 1663."
..Or more likely (as far as germanic goes) derived from Baltic
'plud' (flood)
[quote]Russian лодка/lodka (boat) is also floating on water in the same way
as a duck does- p/lotka
[/quote]
Ok.. fine.. good.
[quote](Serb. lađa; Ita. battello boat; Serbian
plovilo/plutalo /floating object/).
[/quote]
No. 'Lada' simply refers to 'freight'/ 'load'...
And has nothing to do with 'plu' or 'floating'.
[quote]Of course, the etymologists
believe that Eng. boat (OE bat) is derived from the IE root *bheid-
(bite, split, cleave), but I think it is more plausible that boat is
also related to water and float (Eng. floating = Serb. plutanje).
DV
[/quote]
Related only in that 'boats' 'float' on water...not linguistically. |
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