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John Fields · Guest

On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:48:01 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

[quote]see ?"center pivot irrigation"

If they can do this, they can figure out how to get a cable to a
tractor.

I posted the "super pivot" on sci.energy last summer. The idea was to
get rid of the tractor altogether, just keep the wheels motor and the
impliments.

A conventional pivot moves pretty slow so the super pivot could have
several concentric areas so the tangential velocity wouldn>t vary too
much from the outer "tip speed" to the inner "boss."

A poster claiming to be from Nebraska said a conventional pivot sells
for $45,000, a pretty good deal considering the distance it spans. In
something like a berry field it would pay for itself in a matter of
months.

A pivot, however, requires flat land and some of the square field is
"wasted." Moreover, a grid-battery tractor is the cheapest way to get
the foot in the E feld door.

One wire.

One battery.

One tractor with the diesel replaced with an electric motor.

Do that first _then_ you can get fancy.
[/quote]
---
So get off your fat, lazy ass and do it instead of running your mouth.

JF

Bret Cahill · Guest

[quote]I can>t even get UP to save $2.5 billion a year in diesel by
electrifying their main line in the desert.

How long is the line ?
[/quote]
LA to Houston or New Orleans, < 2000 miles.

[quote]Any idea how much it costs to electrifiy a line ?
[/quote]
Anything less than $1 million a mile would pay for itself in a year
assuming fuel costs remain the same.

Of course, no one believes post peak oil will not contiune to spiral.

Before UP can have the line electrified the savings will be 10 billion
a year and the one year payback rate will be $4million a mile.

That>s $800/foot.

For a 5 year payback it>s thousands of dollars/foot . . .

The RR is subject to some Congressional oversight. It>d be pretty
sorry for congress to have to tell them how to cut costs, although
this sometimes happens.

Bret Cahill

Bret Cahill · Guest

rlbell.nsuid@gmail.com · Guest

On Jul 30, 9:46 am, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@aol.com> wrote:
[quote]I can>t even get UP to save $2.5 billion a year in diesel by
electrifying their main line in the desert.
How long is the line ?

LA to Houston or New Orleans, < 2000 miles.

Any idea how much it costs to electrifiy a line ?

Anything less than $1 million a mile would pay for itself in a year
assuming fuel costs remain the same.

Of course, no one believes post peak oil will not contiune to spiral.

Before UP can have the line electrified the savings will be 10 billion
a year and the one year payback rate will be $4million a mile.

That>s $800/foot.

For a 5 year payback it>s thousands of dollars/foot . . .

The RR is subject to some Congressional oversight. It>d be pretty
sorry for congress to have to tell them how to cut costs, although
this sometimes happens.

Bret Cahill
[/quote]

There is more to electrifying the line than putting up poles and
stringing wires.

The distances require that the there are seperate transmission lines
and feeders. For a 2000 mile length, you are looking at a 500kV line
with regular substations to step it down to 100kV, so the transformers
in the locomotives do not have to go directly from 500kV to the 1320
volts that the locomotives run their motors at (1320 is a guess, but
the range will be 660V to, at most, 3000V[an unreasonably large
value]). Insulation lifetime favors going for lower voltages.

It would be nice if the feeders over the tracks could be at the motor
voltage, but that would have each unit in the train drawing between
750A at 3000V and 3400A at 660V, so each unit will need to have its
own onboard power substation-- those things cost money. A reasonable
first step is to put the motor-voltage feeders over railyards and
urban tracks so that a cheap add-on to existing locomotives will allow
them to save on fuel where it is cheap to feed them electricity from
the grid.

I am apalled that you assume that the people running the UP are
complete idiots who never ask themselves if there is a cheaper way to
run a railroad. I would be surprised if they did not continually do
cost benefit studies about electrifying the lines.

Bret Cahill · Guest

[quote]I can>t even get UP to save $2.5 billion a year in diesel by
electrifying their main line in the desert.
How long is the line ?

LA to Houston or New Orleans, < 2000 miles.

Any idea how much it costs to electrifiy a line ?

Anything less than $1 million a mile would pay for itself in a year
assuming fuel costs remain the same.

Of course, no one believes post peak oil will not contiune to spiral.

Before UP can have the line electrified the savings will be 10 billion
a year and the one year payback rate will be $4million a mile.

That>s $800/foot.

For a 5 year payback it>s thousands of dollars/foot �. . .

The RR is subject to some Congressional oversight. �It>d be pretty
sorry for congress to have to tell them how to cut costs, although
this sometimes happens.

Bret Cahill

There is more to electrifying the line than putting up poles and
stringing wires.

The distances require that the there are seperate transmission lines
and feeders. �For a 2000 mile length, you are looking at a 500kV line
with regular substations to step it down to 100kV,
[/quote]
The power would be delivered from the power plants closest to the
track on the I-10 route, just a few feet in Tuscon.

[quote]so the transformers
in the locomotives do not have to go directly from 500kV to the 1320
volts that the locomotives run their motors at (1320 is a guess, but
the range will be 660V to, at most, 3000V[an unreasonably large
value]). �Insulation lifetime favors going for lower voltages.

It would be nice if the feeders over the tracks could be at the motor
voltage, but that would have each unit in the train drawing between
750A at 3000V and 3400A at 660V,
so each unit will need to have its
own onboard power substation-- those things cost money.
[/quote]
Not compared to the operating cost of diesel.

[quote]�A reasonable
first step is to put the motor-voltage feeders over railyards and
urban tracks so that a cheap add-on to existing locomotives will allow
them to save on fuel where it is cheap to feed them electricity from
the grid.
[/quote]
That>s a quick way to reduce smog in the port cities. They just
outlawed burning bunker within 25 miles of the coast.

[quote]I am apalled that you assume that the people running the UP are
complete idiots who never ask themselves if there is a cheaper way to
run a railroad.
[/quote]
You need to read Dilbert more often.

Why didn>t GM ask any questions about peak oil?

Why didn>t the finance industry ask about the low interest rates of
the 1990s?

The answer is that organizations can often be dumber than the average
lumper.

[quote]�I would be surprised
[/quote]
I guarantee you _will_ be surprised.

[quote]if they did not continually do
cost benefit studies about electrifying the lines.
[/quote]
If that were true there would be some publication on the break even
point.

RRs are still subject to some congressional oversight so that>s
probably the first place to look.

Bret Cahill

Eeyore · Guest

Bret Cahill wrote:

[quote]I can>t even get UP to save $2.5 billion a year in diesel by
electrifying their main line in the desert.
[/quote]
How long is the line ?

Any idea how much it costs to electrifiy a line ?

Graham

John Fields · Guest

On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 07:28:56 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

[quote]see ?"center pivot irrigation"

If they can do this, they can figure out how to get a cable to a
tractor.

I posted the "super pivot" on sci.energy last summer. ?The idea was to
get rid of the tractor altogether, just keep the wheels motor and the
impliments.

A conventional pivot moves pretty slow so the super pivot could have
several concentric areas so the tangential velocity wouldn>t vary too
much from the outer "tip speed" to the inner "boss."

A poster claiming to be from Nebraska said a conventional pivot sells
for $45,000, a pretty good deal considering the distance it spans. ?In
something like a berry field it would pay for itself in a matter of
months.

A pivot, however, requires flat land and some of the square field is
"wasted." ?Moreover, a grid-battery tractor is the cheapest way to get
the foot in the E feld door.

One wire.

One battery.

One tractor with the diesel replaced with an electric motor.

Do that first _then_ you can get fancy.

---
So get off your fat, lazy ass and do it instead of running your mouth.

Cite?

Show your calculations.

Totally huge.
[/quote]
---
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apoplexy#Non-medical_usage

LOL!
JF

John Fields · Guest

On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 08:33:28 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

[quote]LOL!

Huge.

Cite?

Show your calculations.
[/quote]
---
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apoplexy#Non-medical_usage

JF

terryc · Guest

On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 05:43:59 -0500, John Fields wrote:

[quote]One wire.
[/quote]
lol. sad, really sad.

Sevenhundred Elves · Guest

On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:02:16 -0700 (PDT), disgoftunwells
<disgoftunwells@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

[quote]Quite funny, but actually cable car tractors could be quite feasible
and low cost. They>d run on wheels - just be pulled from a fixed
motor, instead of from an oxen.
[/quote]
Hear, hear! Best idea for electrifying agriculture so far!

<Followups set to sci.energy. Required to, by my news provider.>
S.

John Fields · Guest

On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 21:56:37 +1000, terryc
<newssixspam-spam@woa.com.au> wrote:

[quote]On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 05:43:59 -0500, John Fields wrote:

One wire.

lol. sad, really sad.

[/quote]
---
Tweren>t me, that was Brat Cahill.

I guess he>s going to use an earth return... ;)

JF


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