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Ekkehard Dengler
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 Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:16 am Post subject: Re: Spanish to English: Filling in a form |
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Edward Hennessey wrote:
[quote]Ekkehard Dengler wrote:
Edward Hennessey wrote:
Ekkehard Dengler wrote:
mb wrote:
On Jul 2, 5:37 am, Athel Cornish-Bowden <athel...@yahoo.co.uk
Although both English and Spanish put the given name first, not
all languages do (e.g. Hungarian), so, it>s safer to say "given
name".
"Given name" is not universally and immediately understood in the
US. I remember having to train the personnel to explain it orally
to the form-fillers. Of course the customary term, christian
name, is taboo, so what else are we left with?
"Forename"?
ED:
And, perhaps, also relevant to:
1. Forewoman or Foreman of the jury or work crew?
2. Nom de golf?
3. The name of the final quadruplet?
The famous Um Dois Tręs de Oliveira Quatro comes to mind, who is
apparently a fourth child, though probably not a quadruplet.
4. A name you try out before making a final choice?
5. What you mistakenly call a person before he corrects you?
Very creative. I wonder whether you think I made the word up,
though, because it is vastly less common in AmE than in BrE, if
Google is to be believed.
ED:
This was just the pure exercise of merriment. One of our favorite
occasional disports is to take
various objects and suggest inventive uses that failed to find spark
in the fabricator>s imagination.
[/quote]
You could write a sequel to "The Deeper Meaning of Liff". Don>t forget who
gave you the idea.
Regards,
Ekkehard |
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Ekkehard Dengler
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:32 am Post subject: Re: Spanish to English: Filling in a form |
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Evertjan. wrote:
[quote]Edward Hennessey wrote on 03 jul 2008 in sci.lang.translation:
Now this is the germ of an idea. For example, Dad gives his name to
his son in traditional continuance. Then Dad gets to take--or is
somehow given--a new name
reflective of his life, aspirations, etcetera. Frankly, it would be
somewhat unsurprising
if an element of humanity has not implemented this.
This is a bit what is happening on the farms of this Saxon speaking
part of the Netherlands called Twente [after the tribe from Roman
times, Caesar called them the Tuibanti or Tuihanti], where I live.
The farmer [not his family] is called with the name of his farm.
When the farmer dies, the eldest son takes over the farm and that
name, and is called first-name + farm-name, or sometimes the reverse.
[/quote]
Sounds interesting, but I>m not sure what "the reverse" would be. Do you
mean that if Twente was Texas, J.R. Ewing would have been called either
"Jock Southfork" or "Southfork Jock"?
Regards,
Ekkehard |
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Ekkehard Dengler
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 4:37 am Post subject: Re: Spanish to English: Filling in a form |
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Ekkehard Dengler wrote:
[quote]Evertjan. wrote:
Edward Hennessey wrote on 03 jul 2008 in sci.lang.translation:
Now this is the germ of an idea. For example, Dad gives his name to
his son in traditional continuance. Then Dad gets to take--or is
somehow given--a new name
reflective of his life, aspirations, etcetera. Frankly, it would be
somewhat unsurprising
if an element of humanity has not implemented this.
This is a bit what is happening on the farms of this Saxon speaking
part of the Netherlands called Twente [after the tribe from Roman
times, Caesar called them the Tuibanti or Tuihanti], where I live.
The farmer [not his family] is called with the name of his farm.
When the farmer dies, the eldest son takes over the farm and that
name, and is called first-name + farm-name, or sometimes the reverse.
Sounds interesting, but I>m not sure what "the reverse" would be. Do
you mean that if Twente was Texas, J.R. Ewing would have been called
either "Jock Southfork" or "Southfork Jock"?
[/quote]
Sorry, that should have been "'J.R. Southfork' or 'Southfork J.R.'" -- I
don>t know what made me think the eldest son took his father>s first name as
well!
Regards,
Ekkehard |
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Edward Hennessey
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 5:35 am Post subject: Re: Spanish to English: Filling in a form |
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Ekkehard Dengler wrote:
[quote]Ekkehard Dengler wrote:
Evertjan. wrote:
Edward Hennessey wrote on 03 jul 2008 in sci.lang.translation:
Now this is the germ of an idea. For example, Dad gives his name
to his son in traditional continuance. Then Dad gets to take--or
is somehow given--a new name
reflective of his life, aspirations, etcetera. Frankly, it would
be somewhat unsurprising
if an element of humanity has not implemented this.
This is a bit what is happening on the farms of this Saxon
speaking part of the Netherlands called Twente [after the tribe
from Roman times, Caesar called them the Tuibanti or Tuihanti],
where I live.
The farmer [not his family] is called with the name of his farm.
When the farmer dies, the eldest son takes over the farm and that
name, and is called first-name + farm-name, or sometimes the
reverse.
Sounds interesting, but I>m not sure what "the reverse" would be.
Do you mean that if Twente was Texas, J.R. Ewing would have been
called either "Jock Southfork" or "Southfork Jock"?
Sorry, that should have been "'J.R. Southfork' or 'Southfork J.R.'"
-- I don>t know what made me think the eldest son took his father>s
first name as well!
Regards,
Ekkehard
[/quote]
ED:
Personally, " J.R. Southfork Jr." would bemuse. Occasionally, and more
richly, you will find a junior whose individual name has the titular
incorporated and
familiarly pronounced as letters, in this case for instance,"J.R. J.R."...
as approved by the National
Stutterers' League. There is also an observance among certain regional and
ethnic
American groups that sees the child given non-family names solely comprised
of initials, such as G S Hart. Whether the initials constitute a first name
or are
distributed as first and middle names or whether they take periods all
varies.
In Japan, given names must be selected from an approved list and in
Thailand, residing ethnic
Chinese have been assigned names that are Thai in structure but of a
synthetic formulation which
clearly and negatively implicates the foreign extraction of the bearer.
Given the strength of
Bumiputra feeling in Malay-speaking countries, it would be no shock to
learn of similar practices there.
But, gentlemen, I am impoverished to find that no one has launched higher
nomenological
theories on that castaway Borg she and speculation that her parentage might
be
traceable to the American character actor Ernest Borgnine, better known to
some
outside of the star guild as
Ernest Cy Borg IX.
Regards,
Edward Hennessey |
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Evertjan.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: Spanish to English: Filling in a form |
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Ekkehard Dengler wrote on 04 jul 2008 in sci.lang.translation:
[quote]Sounds interesting, but I>m not sure what "the reverse" would be.
[/quote]
I knew an "Els-Jan" meaning he was Jan of the farm "dre Els".
But usually it is "Jan Farm-name".
The lower class farmworkers, having no town citizenship, were just called
after the location where they lived, and under Napoleon Law, took the
name of that location in 1811/1812. Names like: Rosink, Abbink, Egberink,
Wissink, etc are very common present day civil familynames in Twente, the
families often still living in the same neigbourhood, their presentday
address streetnames reflecting the location and their familynames.
[quote]Do you mean that if Twente was Texas,
[/quote]
Ah, it is not.
If Texas were Twente, a Red-Indian dialect would be spoken.
The Saxon dialect spoken overhere has many words and syntaxes that are
also found in AngloSaxon and so in English.
It is even more difficult to understand by the average Dutch,
as the Texan dialect is by the average Yankee, I presume.
The often used sentence "Ait vedan." in response to "How are you?" is
untranslatable this compact in most languages, is something like:
"Time passes, I should not complain, but I did not win the expected
jackpot yet." while in fact meaning "I am really happy with my life",
which could never be said in this strictly religious heritaged part of
our country.
[quote]J.R. Ewing would have been called either
"Jock Southfork" or "Southfork Jock"?
[/quote]
Indeed.
More interesting than such Dallas-fiction
is this Twente 'Ewing' story:
Edwina Burr Ewing (St. Louis, 31 August 1872 - Enschede, 17 September
1945) went with her mother, after her father Henry Ewing>s demise, "to
Europe", and on a dancing party she met the local textile-tycon Jan
Bernard van Heek (1863-1923). They married in 1900 in Enschede, a large
Twente town.
They build their summerhouse "Zonnebeek", styled after the Nashville
mansions, in pastoral "de Rutbeek". [I live near.]
<http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afbeelding:Zonnebeek_voorkant.jpg>
As they had no offspring and were very rich, all their estates in Twente
are now owned by the 'Edwina van Heek' foundation.
--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x>es to dots in my emailaddress) |
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Ekkehard Dengler
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: Spanish to English: Filling in a form |
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Evertjan. wrote:
[quote]Ekkehard Dengler wrote on 04 jul 2008 in sci.lang.translation:
Sounds interesting, but I>m not sure what "the reverse" would be.
I knew an "Els-Jan" meaning he was Jan of the farm "dre Els".
But usually it is "Jan Farm-name".
[/quote]
Reminds me of Bavaria, where the usual order of names is often reversed in
colloquial speech: Karl Maier would be called "der Maier Karl" or "der
Maiers Karl", for instance.
[quote]The lower class farmworkers, having no town citizenship, were just
called after the location where they lived, and under Napoleon Law,
took the name of that location in 1811/1812. Names like: Rosink,
Abbink, Egberink, Wissink, etc are very common present day civil
familynames in Twente, the families often still living in the same
neigbourhood, their presentday address streetnames reflecting the
location and their familynames.
[/quote]
You knew I was going to ask this, didn>t you: Is Hiddink a local name as
well?
[...]
Interesting, thank you. I had no idea.
Regards,
Ekkehard |
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mb
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: Spanish to English: Filling in a form |
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On Jul 4, 6:27 am, "Evertjan." <exjxw.hannivo...@interxnl.net> wrote:
[quote]Ekkehard Dengler wrote on 04 jul 2008 in
...
Reminds me of Bavaria, where the usual order of names is often
reversed in colloquial speech: Karl Maier would be called "der Maier
Karl" or "der Maiers Karl", for instance.
Similar but not the same, methinks, as those Beieren ones are formal
familynames.
[/quote]
But the same in some other German-speaking areas. In different regions
of Switzerland traditional naming is as mentioned for Twente (de
Schwarzacher Heini, de Neuenhof Martin...) |
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Evertjan.
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: Spanish to English: Filling in a form |
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Ekkehard Dengler wrote on 04 jul 2008 in sci.lang.translation:
[quote]Evertjan. wrote:
Ekkehard Dengler wrote on 04 jul 2008 in sci.lang.translation:
Sounds interesting, but I>m not sure what "the reverse" would be.
I knew an "Els-Jan" meaning he was Jan of the farm "dre Els".
But usually it is "Jan Farm-name".
Reminds me of Bavaria, where the usual order of names is often
reversed in colloquial speech: Karl Maier would be called "der Maier
Karl" or "der Maiers Karl", for instance.
[/quote]
Similar but not the same, methinks, as those Beieren ones are formal
familynames.
[..]
[quote]
You knew I was going to ask this, didn>t you: Is Hiddink a local name
as well?
[/quote]
Yes. A common one. Nowadays it could be Russian however.
[quote][...]
Interesting, thank you. I had no idea.
[/quote]
The Low-Saxon language/dialect exends far into the low-german speaking
part of Germany.
Read about Twente in the Wikipedia in "Neersassies":
"In Tweante sprekt nog völle "Tukkers", zooas de inwonners van t gebeed
ok wal neumd wördt, de strektaal Tweants, un dialekt van t Neersassies.
In t oostn van de regio wik ut gesprökne Tweants meer of van t
Nederlaands as in t westn. In t Vjenne, Eanter en Riesn hef 't dialekt
nog wier aandere klaankn en weurde."
<http://nds-nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweante>
And about the Twents language "Tweants":
"Tweants is n dialekt van t Neersassies. Neersassies is een van de twee
anerkende strektaaln in Nederlaand. Tweants wördt sprökn in de meeste
Tweantse gemeentn, mer nich oaveral: de meest westelike plaatsn (oonder
aandere Heldern en Nijverdal) hebt un Sallaands dialekt. Der is ok gen
sproake van een zölfde dialekt in de rest van 't gebeed. Weurde en
oetdrukkingn könt in alle döarpe of steedn verschiln. Ut meest wik t
Vreeznvens of, dat völle Sallaandserieje inhef, mer eignlik nich biej t
Tweants en nich biej t Sallaands an heurt. Ut Vreeznvens hef wat metkregn
van t Freesk van Freeske immigraantn. De meest oostelike plaatsn
(Deankaamp, Oldnzel, en zoo wieder) hebt nog doe as persoonlik
vuurnaamwoord vuur de tweede persoon eankelvoald, woar ze in de rest van
Tweante iej broekt."
<http://nds-nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweants>
Dictionary "weurdnbook":
<http://nds-nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweants_weurdnbook>
--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x>es to dots in my emailaddress) |
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