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Bo Raxo
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 Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:51 am Post subject: Re: OPEC>s claims about ethanol and the cost of fuel |
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"Uncle Ben" <ben@greenba.com> wrote in message
news:1343696a-aa6b-41d3-b076-02e42bb7dbd9@k36g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 24, 10:50 pm, DB <a...@some.net> wrote:
[quote]Uncle Ben wrote:
On Jul 24, 5:44 pm, "Bo Raxo" <crimenewscen...@gmail.com> wrote:
Ethanol contains less energy than gasoline for the same volume of fuel.
Check the numbers, you>re not going ot get more horsepower or more
torque
running E85 versus regular fuel.
It is a proven fact. There is a Saab sports car, flex-fuel, that gets
about 15% more HP from ethanol in spite of its having only about 70%
as much energy.
So, it is still less energy per gallon. At that, it has nothing to do
with the real world. There is, and will be for some time, so little
ethanol produced compared to liquid demand. So, so what?
And, there is such a small percentage of the world fleet that can
utilize the higher octane.
NASCAR and the small town tracks burn ethanol for the octane. A trophy
truck will burn $10/gallon racing fuel to keep the size of the gas tank
down.
SO WHAT!?
You have an agenda......
[/quote]
Yes, save civilization. We are running out of oil. People will die.
- - - - - - - - -
Quite true. And corn-based ethanol won>t do anything to help. Develop
ethanol from higher cellulose content sources (like switchgrass), import it
from sugar-cane based sources, create financial incentives and penalties to
get people to buy higher mileage cars, invest in research to both conserve
and develop alternative sources (primarily better battery technology at this
point).
Putting your car on e85 doesn>t save any oil, because it takes nearly a
gallon of oil to make a gallon of ethanol. All it does is line the pockets
of some farmers as corn prices go up, and make many foods more expensive for
everyone else.
Bo Raxo |
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Bo Raxo
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| Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:04 am Post subject: Re: OPEC>s claims about ethanol and the cost of fuel |
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"Uncle Ben" <ben@greenba.com> wrote in message
news:84192492-24f4-4e2f-91fb-7fecb39fc3cf@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 25, 9:51 pm, "Bo Raxo" <crimenewscen...@gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]"Uncle Ben" <b...@greenba.com> wrote in message
news:1343696a-aa6b-41d3-b076-02e42bb7dbd9@k36g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 24, 10:50 pm, DB <a...@some.net> wrote:
Uncle Ben wrote:
On Jul 24, 5:44 pm, "Bo Raxo" <crimenewscen...@gmail.com> wrote:
Ethanol contains less energy than gasoline for the same volume of
fuel.
Check the numbers, you>re not going ot get more horsepower or more
torque
running E85 versus regular fuel.
It is a proven fact. There is a Saab sports car, flex-fuel, that gets
about 15% more HP from ethanol in spite of its having only about 70%
as much energy.
So, it is still less energy per gallon. At that, it has nothing to do
with the real world. There is, and will be for some time, so little
ethanol produced compared to liquid demand. So, so what?
And, there is such a small percentage of the world fleet that can
utilize the higher octane.
NASCAR and the small town tracks burn ethanol for the octane. A trophy
truck will burn $10/gallon racing fuel to keep the size of the gas tank
down.
SO WHAT!?
You have an agenda......
Yes, save civilization. We are running out of oil. People will die.
- - - - - - - - -
Quite true. And corn-based ethanol won>t do anything to help. Develop
ethanol from higher cellulose content sources (like switchgrass), import
it
from sugar-cane based sources, create financial incentives and penalties
to
get people to buy higher mileage cars, invest in research to both conserve
and develop alternative sources (primarily better battery technology at
this
point).
Putting your car on e85 doesn>t save any oil, because it takes nearly a
gallon of oil to make a gallon of ethanol. All it does is line the pockets
of some farmers as corn prices go up, and make many foods more expensive
for
everyone else.
[/quote]
Disagree. The old study by Pimental was refuted as soon as it was
published. He assumed that all corn was irrigated, among other
things. The ERoEI is closer to 1.67. You are right about cultivating
other sources, including Brazilian imports, but even now E85 is good
against CO2, and would you rather send money to Saudi Arabia instead
of US farmers?
The Dept. of Ag estimates that corn diversion raised the price of food
worldwide by 3%. Look at rises in oil, gold, coal, steel, and other
commodities. Corn diversion didn>t cause that. Probably oil did and
the fall in the dollar.
- - - - - - - - - - -
About two thirds of a gallon of oil to produce a gallon of ethanol, using
your 1.67 ratio. Not a lot of savings. It>s a welfare plan for farmers.
I don>t like sending cash to the House of Saud, but the answer isn>t
ethanol, it>s higher mileage vehicles. I see huge numbers of people driving
solo in SUVs - move even half of those to vehicles that get 15 mpg better in
the next five years, and you>ve chopped a heck of a lot of oil use out. As
versus using a gallon of ethanol that took two thirds of a gallon of oil to
make it, and which yields 15% lower mileage - do you see how small the
savings get?
FWIW, I get around using a vehicle that gets 42 miles per gallon and
qualifies for the HOV lane - a motorcycle. Actually not as good a mileage
as my last couple of bikes, which got closer to fifty mpg, but like you, I
like to have some good performance. Be glad to race for pink slips any time
;)
Bo Raxo |
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DB
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:03 am Post subject: Re: OPEC>s claims about ethanol and the cost of fuel |
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Bo Raxo wrote:
[quote]
Disagree. The old study by Pimental was refuted as soon as it was
published. He assumed that all corn was irrigated, among other
things. The ERoEI is closer to 1.67.
[/quote]
Cite? |
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DB
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:03 am Post subject: Re: OPEC>s claims about ethanol and the cost of fuel |
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Uncle Ben wrote:
[quote]
Disagree. The old study by Pimental was refuted as soon as it was
published.
[/quote]
What about the Farrell report? |
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Uncle Ben
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:20 am Post subject: Re: OPEC>s claims about ethanol and the cost of fuel |
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On Jul 27, 2:33 am, DB <a...@some.net> wrote:
[quote]Uncle Ben wrote:
Disagree. The old study by Pimental was refuted as soon as it was
published.
What about the Farrell report?
[/quote]
The Farrell report of July 28, 2008 features a story from the
Washington Post about the current oil situation. It is well worth
reading. It is not good news.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/26/AR2008072601025_pf.html
This link is copied from the Farrell report, in which the third
headline from the top refers to it.
Uncle Ben |
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Uncle Ben
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:24 am Post subject: Re: OPEC>s claims about ethanol and the cost of fuel |
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On Jul 27, 2:36 am, DB <a...@some.net> wrote:
[quote]Bo Raxo wrote:
Disagree. The old study by Pimental was refuted as soon as it was
published. He assumed that all corn was irrigated, among other
things. The ERoEI is closer to 1.67.
Cite?
[/quote]
Robert Zubrin, "Energy Victory", pp. 126-135, Prometheus Books, 2007. |
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zzbunker@netscape.net
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:48 am Post subject: Re: OPEC>s claims about ethanol and the cost of fuel |
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On Jul 22, 2:07 pm, Fuelguru <specced4...@gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]The biofuels industry is responding to OPEC>s claims that ethanol is
the
reason for high gas prices. Yeah right! Ethanol keeps the prices
lower.
[/quote]
Since the only thing OPEC idiots even know about gasloine is 7-11,
that>s mostly why poeple with brains people even invented Digital,
AI,
fiber optics, robots, and lasers in the first place, so the only
thing their
idiot comments about Ethanol concern anything is the price of sand
on Mars.
[quote]Several biofuels organizations issued the following press release to
draw
attention to their ad in the Financial Times. If you click on the link
at
the bottom you can view the full ad.
Links:http://www.goodfuels.org/opechttp://www.prweb.com/releases/2008/7/prweb1115304.htm[/quote] |
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Bo Raxo
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: OPEC>s claims about ethanol and the cost of fuel |
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"Uncle Ben" <ben@greenba.com> wrote in message
news:82be73c6-3737-415c-b6ca-12ac076a33aa@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 27, 2:33 am, DB <a...@some.net> wrote:
[quote]Uncle Ben wrote:
Disagree. The old study by Pimental was refuted as soon as it was
published.
What about the Farrell report?
[/quote]
The Farrell report of July 28, 2008 features a story from the
Washington Post about the current oil situation. It is well worth
reading. It is not good news.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/26/AR2008072601025_pf.html
This link is copied from the Farrell report, in which the third
headline from the top refers to it.
- - - - - - - -
But not all bad news. Notice that Tata>s new car is lightweight and uses a
33 hp engine, which has to translate to some pretty good gas mileage. Those
are the cars more of the world needs to be driving, and the Nano is going to
be cleaner burning than the two stroke engines on many of the small
motorcycles they use.
Pretty arrogant for Americans to tut-tut about how poor families cramming as
many people as possible in to 50+ mpg cars are going to be terrible for the
environment, while they drive solo in their SUVs to go buy out of season
fresh fruit that was shipped in from the other side of the equator.
Bo Raxo |
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Greg Goss
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: OPEC>s claims about ethanol and the cost of fuel |
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"Bo Raxo" <crimenewscenter@gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]
"Uncle Ben" <ben@greenba.com> wrote in message
news:82be73c6-3737-415c-b6ca-12ac076a33aa@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 27, 2:33 am, DB <a...@some.net> wrote:
Uncle Ben wrote:
Disagree. The old study by Pimental was refuted as soon as it was
published.
What about the Farrell report?
The Farrell report of July 28, 2008 features a story from the
Washington Post about the current oil situation. It is well worth
reading. It is not good news.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/26/AR2008072601025_pf.html
This link is copied from the Farrell report, in which the third
headline from the top refers to it.
- - - - - - - -
But not all bad news. Notice that Tata>s new car is lightweight and uses a
33 hp engine, which has to translate to some pretty good gas mileage. Those
are the cars more of the world needs to be driving, and the Nano is going to
be cleaner burning than the two stroke engines on many of the small
motorcycles they use.
Pretty arrogant for Americans to tut-tut about how poor families cramming as
many people as possible in to 50+ mpg cars are going to be terrible for the
environment, while they drive solo in their SUVs to go buy out of season
fresh fruit that was shipped in from the other side of the equator.
[/quote]
Does India measure "horsepower" the same way as Americans? After all,
the French named a car "Two Horsepower" and it wasn>t all that bad for
power.
--
Tomorrow is today already.
Greg Goss, 1989-01-27 |
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Bo Raxo
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: OPEC>s claims about ethanol and the cost of fuel |
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"Greg Goss" <gossg@gossg.org> wrote in message
news:6f85s4Fa5vglU1@mid.individual.net...
[quote]"Bo Raxo" <crimenewscenter@gmail.com> wrote:
"Uncle Ben" <ben@greenba.com> wrote in message
news:82be73c6-3737-415c-b6ca-12ac076a33aa@79g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
On Jul 27, 2:33 am, DB <a...@some.net> wrote:
Uncle Ben wrote:
Disagree. The old study by Pimental was refuted as soon as it was
published.
What about the Farrell report?
The Farrell report of July 28, 2008 features a story from the
Washington Post about the current oil situation. It is well worth
reading. It is not good news.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/26/AR2008072601025_pf.html
This link is copied from the Farrell report, in which the third
headline from the top refers to it.
- - - - - - - -
But not all bad news. Notice that Tata>s new car is lightweight and uses
a
33 hp engine, which has to translate to some pretty good gas mileage.
Those
are the cars more of the world needs to be driving, and the Nano is going
to
be cleaner burning than the two stroke engines on many of the small
motorcycles they use.
Pretty arrogant for Americans to tut-tut about how poor families cramming
as
many people as possible in to 50+ mpg cars are going to be terrible for
the
environment, while they drive solo in their SUVs to go buy out of season
fresh fruit that was shipped in from the other side of the equator.
Does India measure "horsepower" the same way as Americans? After all,
the French named a car "Two Horsepower" and it wasn>t all that bad for
power.
[/quote]
Horsepower is a standard measurement ( 550 foot-pounds per second ), though
the way car horsepower is rated was changed in '73 or '74 to measure power
at the car>s wheels rather than from the engine crank (which is why a 300
horsepower muscle car from the 1960s isn>t nearly as powerful as a 300
horsepower car produced more recently).
The Deux Chevaux made quite a bit more than two horsepower, the two
horsepower rating was for tax purposes. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_horsepower |
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