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john d hamilton · Guest

Have just bought the latest type of rechargeable *Hybrid* batteries from
Maplin, made by Uniross, called Hybrio. (also Argos are now selling them
made by Sanyo).

They are supposed to have the advantage over Nickel Metal Hydride in that
they don>t have the 'memory effect'. Also the advantage of the Alkaline, in
that they dont self discharge at quite a high rate when not being used.

The charger I have is an Energiser designed for Nickel Hydride batteries and
which indicates when a battery is fully charged, by the charging light going
off. But when putting in the Hybrid batteries the light does not go off.

Is there an harm done to these hybrid batteries if they are overcharged?

Al Bundy · Guest

On Oct 8, 4:14 am, "john d hamilton" <blues...@mail.invalid> wrote:
[quote]Have just bought the latest type of rechargeable *Hybrid* batteries from
Maplin, made by Uniross, called Hybrio. (also Argos are now selling them
made by Sanyo).

They are supposed to have the advantage over Nickel Metal Hydride in that
they don>t have the 'memory effect'. Also the advantage of the Alkaline, in
that they dont self discharge at quite a high rate when not being used.

The charger I have is an Energiser designed for Nickel Hydride batteries and
which indicates when a battery is fully charged, by the charging light going
off. But when putting in the Hybrid batteries the light does not go off.

Is there an harm done to these hybrid batteries if they are overcharged?
[/quote]
If the light doesn>t go off, they probably are charging. You could put
a meter in series with the batteries and check the charging rate after
a given charging period. You could check the charging rate at the
beginning and estimate the needed charging time so you could remove
them. With a VOM, you could also check the top voltage of the cells
before and after a period of time to verify the charge level. For
something simple, when they are overcharging, the battery will begin
to get warm or even hot. I can tell you from experience that a battery
can explode while charging. Lithium cells are more prone to it though.
I have not had a NMH type explode.

philo · Guest

"john d hamilton" <bluestar@mail.invalid> wrote in message
news:gchq6h$a9m$1@registered.motzarella.org...
[quote]Have just bought the latest type of rechargeable *Hybrid* batteries from
Maplin, made by Uniross, called Hybrio. (also Argos are now selling them
made by Sanyo).

They are supposed to have the advantage over Nickel Metal Hydride in that
they don>t have the 'memory effect'. Also the advantage of the Alkaline,
in
that they dont self discharge at quite a high rate when not being used.

The charger I have is an Energiser designed for Nickel Hydride batteries
and
which indicates when a battery is fully charged, by the charging light
going
off. But when putting in the Hybrid batteries the light does not go off.

Is there an harm done to these hybrid batteries if they are overcharged?
[/quote]

The biggest harm would be if they are getting hot,

Best to protect your investment and get the right charger...
if the charger you have does not turn off, I>m sure it will greatly shorten
the life of the batteries
[quote]
[/quote]

William Sommerwerck · Guest

[quote]Have just bought the latest type of rechargeable *Hybrid* batteries from
Maplin, made by Uniross, called Hybrio. (also Argos are now selling them
made by Sanyo).

They are supposed to have the advantage over Nickel Metal Hydride in that
they don>t have the 'memory effect'. Also the advantage of the alkaline,
in
that they dont self discharge at quite a high rate when not being used.

The charger I have is an Energiser designed for Nickel Hydride batteries
and
which indicates when a battery is fully charged, by the charging light
going
off. But when putting in the Hybrid batteries the light does not go off.

Is there an harm done to these hybrid batteries if they are overcharged?
[/quote]

Who knows? HAVE YOU ASKED THE MANUFACTURER? No, of course not. That>s too
much trouble, isn>t it?

Good grief. Do you expect the people in this group to have detailed
technical information about about a new product?

By the way, I>ve not heard of NiMH cells suffering from memory effect.

Whiskers · Guest

["Followup-To:" header set to 24hoursupport.helpdesk.]
On 2008-10-08, john d hamilton <bluestar@mail.invalid> wrote:

[...]

[quote]The charger I have is an Energiser designed for Nickel Hydride batteries and
which indicates when a battery is fully charged, by the charging light going
off. But when putting in the Hybrid batteries the light does not go off.

Is there an harm done to these hybrid batteries if they are overcharged?
[/quote]
Uniross>s European website makes no mention of "Hybrio" batteries, but the
US website does - describing them as NiMH type. That site also offers
suggested 'charge times' using a variety of (presumably Uniross-branded)
chargers. For AA size 2500mAh, the longest time (presumably using the
simplest charger) is 30 hours.

Maplin>s web site is as un-informative as usual.

<http://www.batterylogic.co.uk/hybrio.htm> say that these batteries "can
be recharged in /any/ NiMH battery charger".

I think that if your charger has an automatic cut-off calibrated for NiMH
cells, you should be safe enough - but don>t leave batteries 'on charge'
indefinitely. There may be more information in the packaging of the
batteries you have, or in the packaging of chargers being sold for use with
such batteries.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

Dave Platt · Guest

In article <gchq6h$a9m$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
john d hamilton <bluestar@mail.invalid> wrote:

[quote]Have just bought the latest type of rechargeable *Hybrid* batteries from
Maplin, made by Uniross, called Hybrio. (also Argos are now selling them
made by Sanyo).

They are supposed to have the advantage over Nickel Metal Hydride in that
they don>t have the 'memory effect'. Also the advantage of the Alkaline, in
that they dont self discharge at quite a high rate when not being used.

The charger I have is an Energiser designed for Nickel Hydride batteries and
which indicates when a battery is fully charged, by the charging light going
off. But when putting in the Hybrid batteries the light does not go off.

Is there an harm done to these hybrid batteries if they are overcharged?
[/quote]
According to the manufacturer web pages I>ve read, overcharging *any*
NiMH cell significantly can shorten its life... they>re somewhat less
tolerant to this than nickel-cadmium cells. Also, it>s somewhat more
difficult to detect the "full charge" state in a NiMH than it is in a
NiCd, especially at low charge rates.

Based on what I>ve read, there seem to be two charging schemes for
NiMH which the cells will tolerate fairly well:

- Slow charge (0.1 C or so) with a timed cutoff after 12 to 16 hours.
If you touch the cells during charging and find that they are
significantly warm, then they>re probably "full". [They do warm up
somewhat during the normal charging process, so judging whether
they>re warm enough to indicate full-charge is not always easy.]

- Fast charge (0.5C to 1C, or in some cases even higher) with primary
cutoff based on temperature rise, secondary cutoff based on zero
delta-V (i.e. the cell voltage stops rising when full-charge is
reached) and a timed cutoff as a failsafe.

Intermediate rates (above .1C and below .5C) have some
disadvantages... this amount of current may not result in a rapid
temperature rise at full-charge (thus making full-charge harder to
detect reliably) but is high enough to affect the cell>s lifetime if
you do end up overcharging the cell.

It sounds to me as if your Energizer charger has its full-charge
detection circuit tuned properly for this newer type of NiMH cell. If
it>s a slow (overnight) charger, you probably won>t hurt the cells
significantly using it as long as you shut it down manually at the
proper time. If it>s a "quick" or "fast" charger, it may very well be
overheating the cells enough to reduce their lifetime.

If you plan to use a lot of NiMH cells, or to recharge them
frequently, it might very well be a good investment to buy a
high-quality charger specifically designed for reliable fast-charging
of such cells. I like the Powerex MH-C9000 myself, as it>s fast and
reliable and has a lot of useful features.

--
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

E Z Peaces · Guest

William Sommerwerck wrote:
[quote]Have just bought the latest type of rechargeable *Hybrid* batteries from
Maplin, made by Uniross, called Hybrio. (also Argos are now selling them
made by Sanyo).

They are supposed to have the advantage over Nickel Metal Hydride in that
they don>t have the 'memory effect'. Also the advantage of the alkaline,
in
that they dont self discharge at quite a high rate when not being used.

The charger I have is an Energiser designed for Nickel Hydride batteries
and
which indicates when a battery is fully charged, by the charging light
going
off. But when putting in the Hybrid batteries the light does not go off.

Is there an harm done to these hybrid batteries if they are overcharged?

Who knows? HAVE YOU ASKED THE MANUFACTURER? No, of course not. That>s too
much trouble, isn>t it?

Good grief. Do you expect the people in this group to have detailed
technical information about about a new product?

By the way, I>ve not heard of NiMH cells suffering from memory effect.

NiMH cells have done very well for me, using a fast charger with a light[/quote]
for each cell. After ten years, all twelve still hold a charge for weeks.

If more than one cell is charged on the same circuit (the same indicator
light), the charger should shut off when the first cell is charged.
With each charging cycle, the state of charge of the lowest cell may be
lower and you>ll get less service out of the set of batteries. It could
seem like memory effect. The solution is the same, to drain each cell
and then charge.

OG · Guest

"john d hamilton" <bluestar@mail.invalid> wrote in message
news:gchq6h$a9m$1@registered.motzarella.org...
[quote]Have just bought the latest type of rechargeable *Hybrid* batteries from
Maplin, made by Uniross, called Hybrio. (also Argos are now selling them
made by Sanyo).

They are supposed to have the advantage over Nickel Metal Hydride in that
they don>t have the 'memory effect'. Also the advantage of the Alkaline,
in that they dont self discharge at quite a high rate when not being used.

The charger I have is an Energiser designed for Nickel Hydride batteries
and which indicates when a battery is fully charged, by the charging light
going off. But when putting in the Hybrid batteries the light does not go
off.

Is there an harm done to these hybrid batteries if they are overcharged?
[/quote]
Have you used them yet or are you putting them in the charger straight from
the box?

If they are new they will be fully charged already. My understanding is that
the 'sensor' for detecting full charge is the drop in current when the cell
goes from 'active charging' to ' fully charged'**, so it suggests that you
are probably currently 'over>charging them.

Let them run down and then try again. Calculate the approximate charging
time and start charging so that you can check if the charger light goes out
within an hour or so of the expected time.

**I>m not an expert on this, so I>m happy to be corrected on the mechanism
for detecting full charge.

Guest

On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 09:14:52 +0100, "john d hamilton"
<bluestar@mail.invalid> wrote:

[quote]Have just bought the latest type of rechargeable *Hybrid* batteries from
Maplin, made by Uniross, called Hybrio. (also Argos are now selling them
made by Sanyo).

They are supposed to have the advantage over Nickel Metal Hydride in that
they don>t have the 'memory effect'. Also the advantage of the Alkaline, in
that they dont self discharge at quite a high rate when not being used.

The charger I have is an Energiser designed for Nickel Hydride batteries and
which indicates when a battery is fully charged, by the charging light going
off. But when putting in the Hybrid batteries the light does not go off.

Is there an harm done to these hybrid batteries if they are overcharged?

[/quote]
Would it be to much trouble to identify the specific charger?

john d hamilton · Guest

<tnom@mucks.net> wrote in message
news:9uvpe45o6dfibg5tjfjj5gfahplhqpm4en@4ax.com...
[quote]On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 09:14:52 +0100, "john d hamilton"
bluestar@mail.invalid> wrote:

Have just bought the latest type of rechargeable *Hybrid* batteries from
Maplin, made by Uniross, called Hybrio. (also Argos are now selling them
made by Sanyo).

They are supposed to have the advantage over Nickel Metal Hydride in that
they don>t have the 'memory effect'. Also the advantage of the Alkaline,
in
that they dont self discharge at quite a high rate when not being used.

The charger I have is an Energiser designed for Nickel Hydride batteries
and
which indicates when a battery is fully charged, by the charging light
going
off. But when putting in the Hybrid batteries the light does not go off.

Is there an harm done to these hybrid batteries if they are overcharged?

Would it be to much trouble to identify the specific charger?
[/quote]
Many thanks to all. (except possibly Mr *Moody* Sommerwerck) The charger
is Energizer, Model; 'Compact Charger' (no serial numbers on it).

E Z Peaces · Guest

john d hamilton wrote:
[quote]tnom@mucks.net> wrote in message
news:9uvpe45o6dfibg5tjfjj5gfahplhqpm4en@4ax.com...
On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 09:14:52 +0100, "john d hamilton"
bluestar@mail.invalid> wrote:

Have just bought the latest type of rechargeable *Hybrid* batteries from
Maplin, made by Uniross, called Hybrio. (also Argos are now selling them
made by Sanyo).

They are supposed to have the advantage over Nickel Metal Hydride in that
they don>t have the 'memory effect'. Also the advantage of the Alkaline,
in
that they dont self discharge at quite a high rate when not being used.

The charger I have is an Energiser designed for Nickel Hydride batteries
and
which indicates when a battery is fully charged, by the charging light
going
off. But when putting in the Hybrid batteries the light does not go off.

Is there an harm done to these hybrid batteries if they are overcharged?

Would it be to much trouble to identify the specific charger?

Many thanks to all. (except possibly Mr *Moody* Sommerwerck) The charger
is Energizer, Model; 'Compact Charger' (no serial numbers on it).

Of 13 user reviews at amazon.com, 11 disliked it.[/quote]

William Sommerwerck · Guest

[quote]According to the manufacturer web pages I>ve read, overcharging *any*
NiMH cell significantly can shorten its life... they>re somewhat less
tolerant to this than nickel-cadmium cells.
[/quote]
How do you define "overcharging"? Switching to a trickle charge at the end
of the charge cycle is, technically, overcharging, but no one considers it
abuse.

NiMH cells can tolerate huge charging currents. MAHA specifically states
that do not recommend charging at _less_ than 1/3 C, and permit charge rates
as high as 1.0 C!

Whether this applies only to their cells, or pretty much everyones, I don>t
know. But NiMH cells don>t appear to be particularly "delicate".

"Overcharging" probably means, as others have suggested, continuing the
charge past "negative delta V" and continuing to charge at a high rate to
the point where the cell badly overheats.

But, as I said in my "moody" missive, this is something you should ask the
manufacturer, as only it knows how its only cells respond to various
charging protocols.

The people in this group do not.

[quote]Also, it>s somewhat more difficult to detect the "full charge" state
in a NiMH than it is in a NiCd, especially at low charge rates.
[/quote]
Yes and no. NiMH chargers can use either a rise in temperature (which might
be hard to judge when the sensor is not part of the battery pack) or a drop
in voltage to signal "full charge". The latter is supposedly larger and more
distinct at higher charge rates.

I don>t believe either of these apply to nicad charging.

E Z Peaces · Guest

William Sommerwerck wrote:
[quote]According to the manufacturer web pages I>ve read, overcharging *any*
NiMH cell significantly can shorten its life... they>re somewhat less
tolerant to this than nickel-cadmium cells.

How do you define "overcharging"? Switching to a trickle charge at the end
of the charge cycle is, technically, overcharging, but no one considers it
abuse.
[/quote]
In 1975 my station got a hand-held communications radio with a NiCad
battery. The radio hung in a charger that would switch to a trickle
charge when the battery was charged. That would have been ideal for a
lead-acid battery, but in a matter of weeks the NiCad would no longer
take a charge. The boss contacted the battery manufacturer and learned
that NiCads should not be left on a trickle charge. Nobody considers it
abuse because it>s not intentional misuse, but trickle charging is harmful.

I began using aa NiCads in 1981. They were supposed to be good for 500
charge cycles. Within about 50 cycles, their self-discharge was so high
that they would go flat if not used within a few days. Eventually they
wouldn>t charge at all. I bought a lot of them for 17 years because I
found them more practical than alkalines even if I got only a fraction
of the advertised service life.

Then I tried a set of NiMH cells along with a microprocessor-controlled
500ma charger. They performed so well that I bought many more. After
ten years, all my NiMH cells will hold a charge for months. That
charger would also work for NiCads, and I discovered that they, too, had
outstanding service lives if fast-charged.

A big killer of nickel cells is internal salts. They allow electrical
leakage so a cell won>t hold a charge long and eventually can>t be
charged at all. These deposits increase during trickle or C/10 charging
but apparently not with fast charging.

Al Bundy · Guest

On Oct 9, 1:38 am, E Z Peaces <c...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
[quote]William Sommerwerck wrote:

A big killer of nickel cells is internal salts. They allow electrical
leakage so a cell won>t hold a charge long and eventually can>t be
charged at all. These deposits increase during trickle or C/10 charging
but apparently not with fast charging.
[/quote]
There are ways to burn off those salts. I suppose it might be done
with a well designed apparatus to gain a bit more life from a dead
cell, but not economically practical. For emergency purposes or as an
experiment, one can "tickle" the cell with a high voltage. I have even
used 120VAC from the wall socket. This is not for the feint of heart
and I would not advise even experimenting without proper eye and other
protection. A 12VDC battery applied to a 1.5VDC cell might be held
for about a second and no more.

Tim Forcer · Guest

On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:14, john d hamilton wrote:
[quote]
Have just bought the latest type of rechargeable *Hybrid* batteries from
Maplin, made by Uniross, called Hybrio. (also Argos are now selling them
made by Sanyo).

They are supposed to have the advantage over Nickel Metal Hydride in that
they don>t have the 'memory effect'.
[/quote]
Err, no. The claimed advantage is that their self-discharge rate is
extra low. Therefore they are sold in (allegedly) "charged" state, so
can be used straight out of the pack. After use and recharging, they
will allegedly still be holding a fair chunk of usable charge even
after many months of storage.

[quote]Also the advantage of the Alkaline, in that they dont self
discharge at quite a high rate when not being used.
[/quote]
Alkaline batteries are primaries, not rechargeable (at least, not with
great success / reliability / amount of recharge), and have
exceptionally low self-discharge rates, particularly when stored
unused.

My experience of Hybrios is that they aren>t _much_ better than
standard high-capacity NiMH. Also, a significant percentage have
proved to have lower-than-nominal capacity, which has been a right
nuisance at times, and led to me checking open-circuit cell voltages
and sorting the not-very-good cells apart from the rest of the
collection.

I am trying not to rely on Hybrio>s supposed long-storage life, and to
carry a spare set of cells at all times. Where I might expect to
depend on full (or full-ish) charge (full day>s GPS hiking, camera
flash to be used at a wedding), I now always replace with fresh.
Others may have different experiences, and be completely delighted
with their Hybrios. This is just my experience of five packs of 4*AA
and three of 4*AAA. I charge in a Uniroos fast charger, which handles
each cell individually (these chargers are, IMO, much preferable to
the majority which force charging in pairs or quads), and the LEDs
change from flashing to steady at different times, which is partly due
to differences in the four charging circuits, but can also indicate
significant differences between cells. Obviously, the charger was a
really good one, because they stopped making it. But at least one of
Maplin>s high-rate chargers operates cell-by-cell.

Other manufacturer/tradenames for the technology are:
Sanyo Eneloop
Panasonic Infinium
Vapex Instant

Hope this helps.


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