Science and Technology news... :: View topic - International Conference on the Phaistos Disk

bulkington63 · Guest

On Jul 23, 1:57 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
[quote]Dear Peter Clayton,
thank you for the registration form that arrived
via snail mail. First, I am no Dr, just a Mr, and second
or rather zeroest I won>t be able to participate in
your conference, mainly out of financial reasons,
as I said quite clearly in my first e-mail. Some time
ago I developed a new way of participating in a
scientific conference: by submitting a paper and
inviting interested scholars to exchange e-mails
with me. Some organizers of a conference allow
me to participate in this way. Now in the case
of your conference: it already started in sci.lang,
accessible for everybody via Google and Groups.
I myself consider Jerome Eisenberg>s claim that
the disk may be a fake a PR hoax. Our Peter T.
Daniels, Dr Peter T. Daniels, editor of The World>s
Writing Systems, published in 1996, read the article,
took it seriously and pulverized Eisenberg>s claim,
which weighs only the more as Dr Daniels would
love to get rid of the disk. My opinion in much
detail can be found in the thread started by Daniels,
whom we fondly and simply call Peter: Conference
on the Phaistos Disk (if memory serves).

Sincerely, Franz Gnaedinger, Zurich

On Jul 22, 9:15 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:

Apart from TYR Sseyr there is a further link between
Magdalenian and the Tiryns disk and Elaia disk,
namely CO OC LOP Cyclops, this time not as a word
but as a sign. Derk Ohlenroth noticed that two signs
occur frequently at the end of a field, and so they
might perhaps represent the Greek ending -OS ?
This was the key he needed, and, after having studied
the disk(s) for years, he deciphered them within two
hours. The O is given as a shield, and the S as a soldier,
Let us have a look at the O : a circle, in the center a dot,
and six more dots along the circumference. If the circle
represents the wall of a town, the six dots along the
circumference may represent guards watching out,
and the central dot may stand for the king or ruler
as the coordinating mind. CO OC LOP --- with an
active mind (co) eye (oc, especially the right eye)
hedge or fence (lop), the ruler and the guards inside
a fortified camp, the king and watchful soldiers
inside a fortified settlement. If so, a cyclopic wall
wouldn>t be a wall made of blocks only a giant,
a cyclops, can lift, it would mean the wall of an early
town, protected by guards commanded by a king.
A cyclops would then be the symbol of an early town.
The most famous cyclops is Homer>s Polyphem,
literally Much Famous, a one-eyed giant who
resembles more a wooded mountain top than a man
who eats bread. In my opinion, Polyphem is a symbol
of Troy, his one eye the acropolis, his body downtown
Troy, providing protected shelter for 5,000 people in
around 1200 BC, and the blinding of Polyphem would
have been the sacking of Troy, presumably in the
summer of 1184 BC. Now have a look at the Tiryns
disk. You see the king in the center (twice, looking out
in two directions that form a right angle), followed by
soldiers who watch out over the margin that symbolizes
the wall around Tiryns, five soldiers occupy the margin,
some more guard the entrance. This means Tiryns was
another cyclops, and so was Mycenae. A variation of
the sign would have served as Argos Eye, a big dot
surrounded by smaller dots, appearing as tattoos on
the front and cheeks of the watchful plaster head from
Mycenae. CO OC LOP has further derivatives in Greek
kyklos English cycle, and in PIE *kwekwlos wherefrom
English wheel and Sanskrit chakra. Many early towns
were round (Dimini) and had ground plans that evoke
wheels (Nation of Towns in the Transural), furthermore
we may assume that the walls served for astronomical
observations, as indicated by the rosette in the center
of the Tiryns disk, representing a) the former Circular
Building, b) the Zeus temple within, and c) a lunisolar
calendar (a year had eight periods of 45 days,
plus 5 and occasionally 6 days, a week had nine days,
105 weeks are 945 days and correspond to 32 lunations).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
[/quote]
OMG! Did you actually send this childish letter to the conference
organizer? I>m sure they>re heartbroken that you can>t attend. Ha!

John

Peter T. Daniels · Guest

On Jul 23, 8:13 am, bulkington63 <john_66...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote]On Jul 23, 1:57 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:

Dear Peter Clayton,
thank you for the registration form that arrived
via snail mail. First, I am no Dr, just a Mr, and second
or rather zeroest I won>t be able to participate in
your conference, mainly out of financial reasons,
as I said quite clearly in my first e-mail. Some time
ago I developed a new way of participating in a
scientific conference: by submitting a paper and
inviting interested scholars to exchange e-mails
with me. Some organizers of a conference allow
me to participate in this way. Now in the case
of your conference: it already started in sci.lang,
accessible for everybody via Google and Groups.
I myself consider Jerome Eisenberg>s claim that
the disk may be a fake a PR hoax. Our Peter T.
Daniels, Dr Peter T. Daniels, editor of The World>s
Writing Systems, published in 1996, read the article,
took it seriously and pulverized Eisenberg>s claim,
which weighs only the more as Dr Daniels would
love to get rid of the disk. My opinion in much
detail can be found in the thread started by Daniels,
whom we fondly and simply call Peter: Conference
on the Phaistos Disk (if memory serves).

Sincerely, Franz Gnaedinger, Zurich

OMG! Did you actually send this childish letter to the conference
organizer? I>m sure they>re heartbroken that you can>t attend. Ha!
[/quote]
Why do you suppose he supposes I "would love to get rid of the disk"?

Franz Gnaedinger · Guest

On Jul 23, 3:03 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]
Why do you suppose he supposes I "would love to get rid of the disk"?
[/quote]
Habent sua fata libelli. You published The World>s
Writing Systems in 1996. Derk Ohlenroth published
his book on the disk in the same year, overturning
what you say on the origin of the alphabet. Now
if the disk turned out to be a fake, that challenge
would go away. But you are scientist enough not
to accept a weak reasoning as the one by Jerome
Eisenberg. My remark on you in my second e-mail
to Minerva is actually a compliment, but having to
explain a compliment is about as bad as when one
has to explain a joke. John Bulkington63. Do get it?
John Bulkington63. No? John Bulkington63 ...

As for the journal Minerva: I got a couple of copies
at an antiquity fair in the early 1990s and liked them
very much, interesting topics, brillant photographs.
The owner of the stand kindly allowed me to make
contour drawings of two splendid violin idols from
the Cyclades, of white translucent marble, both
with round bodies, short arms that are at the same
time breasts, and perfectly round heads. These
idols inspired me to my interpretation of a whole
class of early female figurines: the body symbolizes
the fertile inner of the earth (womb), arms and breasts
indicate the surface of the earth, where we live and
work (arms) and find our nourishment (breasts),
and the head symbolizes the sky (in the case of those
idols the moon - when held against light, the round
heads were perfect images of the full moon). I can>t
remember the name of the stand and of the owner,
but it would be ironic if it were Minerva and Eisenberg.

grapheus@www.com · Guest

On Jul 24, 8:28 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
[quote]On Jul 23, 3:03 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:

Why do you suppose he supposes I "would love to get rid of the disk"?

Habent sua fata libelli. You published The World>s
Writing Systems in 1996. Derk Ohlenroth published
his book on the disk in the same year, overturning
what you say on the origin of the alphabet.
[/quote]
REALLY FUNNY !!!!!
Franz is defending Derk Ohlenroth>s solution because this scholar has
been THE ONLY ONE to take Franz as a serious searcher. MANY OTHOERS
DID, but not for a long time, because Franz is very good in faking to
be a MISUNDERSTOOD GENIUS. He caught even a Nobel Prize !!!

FOR THOSE who don>t know Ohlenroth>s book :
Derk Ohlenoth>s "solution" is FULL of OBVIOUS ERRORS :
1)- He read the text from the center, what has been demonstrated
BEYOND ANY DOUBT to be the WRONG direction of reading.
2)- He didn>t pay attention to the "word-separators". So, a word like
YLKAIOS covers one compartment + 2/3 of the next !!!!
3)- He supposed the script to be alphabetic, with NO LESS than 6 signs
with a A-value -- 6 with the I-value, 5 with a S-value, etc.
4)- In spite of this abundance of HOMOPHONIC signes, the word KAN is
written KA (no -N ending!) -- the word SIRUNS is written SLRUNS --
etc.

One has to be Franz to believe in such a MISFIRED ATTEMPT !!!!!!!

grapheus

Peter T. Daniels · Guest

On Jul 24, 2:28 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
[quote]On Jul 23, 3:03 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:

Why do you suppose he supposes I "would love to get rid of the disk"?

Habent sua fata libelli. You published The World>s
Writing Systems in 1996. Derk Ohlenroth published
his book on the disk in the same year, overturning
what you say on the origin of the alphabet.
[/quote]
Curious that no one else thinks that the usual understanding of the
"origin of the alphabet" has been "overturned."

Where, BTW, do I say anything about the question in WWS?

Franz Gnaedinger · Guest

On Jul 24, 1:35 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]
Curious that no one else thinks that the usual understanding of the
"origin of the alphabet" has been "overturned."

Where, BTW, do I say anything about the question in WWS?
[/quote]
Don>t you believe in the Phoenician invention of the alphabet?
Well, there was an earlier alphabet, invented somewhere
between 1700 and 1650 BC, in honor of the goddess
Demeter-Elaia and her daughter Nyx, whose name was taboo,
and so the script was secret, only for initiates, a peculiar
alphabet conveying both phonetic and visual messages,
which double task is the reason for homophony, e.g. six
different alphas. The Elaia disk represents Elaia>s grove
at Phigalia, the text instructs visitors how to evoke Nyx and
get her oracle. The complementary Tiryns disk represents
Tiryns, on the disk called Slryns (sigma lamda rho ...),
the rosette in the center the still extant rosette of big supporing
blocks at the base of the former Circular Building, also the
Zeus shrine in the former Circular Building, also a lunisolar
calendar, and on the phonetic level emphatic sigma, begin
of Ss-Ey-R Sseyr, Doric Sseus, Homeric Zeus. The spiral
text equates the Zeus from Mount Lycaion with the Zeus
of Tiryns, and the shining town with the shining god, and
Eponymous Tiryns both with the town and the god - deification
of Eponymous Tiryns, Homer>s Lord Laertes of the lineage
Zeus - Arkisios - Laertes - Odysseus - Telemachos, about
2700 - 2200 - 1700 - 1200 - 700 BC respectively. The margin
represents the wall around Tiryns, and the text, exactly filling
the circle of the margin, just leaving free the entrance, works
as magic enforcement of the wall: a banning formula, four
curses of an archaic power. We know still very little about
Greece in the making, and specifically about the Argolis in
the Middle Helladic period of time. Owing to Derk Ohlenroth
we can now read the Elaia disk, the Tiryns disk, the inscription
on the bronze double axe from Arkalokhori, and the inscription
on the altar stone from Mallia on the phonetic level, tackle
the visual language of the disks, and via their visual messages
link them to other finds, for example the gold signet ring from
Tiryns, and make them speak again ... Champollion had to
die and lie twenty years in the ground before his decipherment
of the Egyptian hieroglyphs was accepted. I wish Derk Ohlenroth
a better fate. Alas, not every great achievement is getting
acknowledged during someone>s lifetime. There are too many
Panu Petteri Höglunds and John Bulkington63s around, on
every level of the humanities. The mob rules, also in academe.

Peter T. Daniels · Guest

On Jul 25, 2:52 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
[quote]On Jul 24, 1:35 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:

Curious that no one else thinks that the usual understanding of the
"origin of the alphabet" has been "overturned."

Where, BTW, do I say anything about the question in WWS?

Don>t you believe in the Phoenician invention of the alphabet?
[/quote]
Where do I say anything about it in WWS? (That was your false claim,
which I snipped.)

[quote]Well, there was an earlier alphabet, invented somewhere
between 1700 and 1650 BC,
[/quote]
Solely in your imagination. There is no attestation of such an
"alphabet" or script.

[quote]in honor of the goddess
Demeter-Elaia and her daughter Nyx, whose name was taboo,
and so the script was secret, only for initiates, a peculiar
alphabet conveying both phonetic and visual messages,
[/quote]
Thus, by definition, not an alphabet

[snipping the oft-repeatred fantasies]

[quote]Champollion had to
die and lie twenty years in the ground before his decipherment
of the Egyptian hieroglyphs was accepted.
[/quote]
Where on earth do you _get_ crap like this????

grapheus@www.com · Guest

On Jul 25, 4:44 pm, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
[quote]On 2008-07-25, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:

Tiryns, and make them speak again ... Champollion had to
die and lie twenty years in the ground before his decipherment
of the Egyptian hieroglyphs was accepted.

Huh? He published his translation in 1822 and it was recognized
right away by well-known authorities; he died in 1832.

[/quote]
Don>t worry so much, Adam...
In fairy tales, timing is not a problem...
Regards
grapheus

Adam Funk · Guest

On 2008-07-25, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:

[quote]Tiryns, and make them speak again ... Champollion had to
die and lie twenty years in the ground before his decipherment
of the Egyptian hieroglyphs was accepted.
[/quote]
Huh? He published his translation in 1822 and it was recognized
right away by well-known authorities; he died in 1832.

--
Do not use _literally_ to intensify a metaphorical exaggeration.
People in a famine relief camp may be _literally_ starving, but
it is not a thing to say about oneself towards lunchtime.
(Gowers, _The Complete Plain Words_)

Franz Gnaedinger · Guest

On Jul 25, 3:06 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]
Where do I say anything about it in WWS? (That was your false claim,
which I snipped.)

Solely in your imagination. There is no attestation of such an
"alphabet" or script.

Thus, by definition, not an alphabet

[snipping the oft-repeatred fantasies]

Where on earth do you _get_ crap like this????
[/quote]
Influential people denied Champollion>s achievement
until twenty years after his death, fearing the Egyptian
papyri, once deciphered, might reveal an Egyptian
knowledge predating the Greek one - I got this from
a TV documentary (and if TV domcumentaries are
nonsense, why did you participate in one yourself?).
Adam Funk: what does "recognized right away by
well-known authorities" mean? Derk Ohelnroth>s
book was quickly sold out, although being very
expensive, every university library and every
archaeological library hereabouts bought a copy.
Peter: what is your opinion about the origin of the
alphabet? If a script consists of signs that render
neither words nor syllables but single consonants
and vowels we speak of an alphabetic script. The
big shortcoming of The World>s Writing Systems
is your complete omission of the graphic origin of writing.
The oldest examples of writing identified so far (mainly
by me) are abstract signs accompanying cave art,
figurative reliefs (Göbekli Tepe), and Vinca figurines
(signs on the surface can both be read as cloth,
for example, and as message, name of the goddess,
cross line angle - Ki Ri Ke - Circe). Now in the case
of the Elaia disk and of the Tiryns disk we have
another example of visual and verbal language,
a last survivor of the Vinca tradition that also marks
the begin of a new tradition in writing, namely the
use of an alphabetic script, and the Tiryns disk
is the most fascinating example of a combined
visual and verbal message I ever encountered.

Peter T. Daniels · Guest

On Jul 26, 2:28 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:
[quote]On Jul 25, 3:06 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:

Where do I say anything about it in WWS? (That was your false claim,
which I snipped.)

Solely in your imagination. There is no attestation of such an
"alphabet" or script.

Thus, by definition, not an alphabet

[snipping the oft-repeatred fantasies]

Where on earth do you _get_ crap like this????

Influential people
[/quote]
Name them, and name your source.

[quote]denied Champollion>s achievement
until twenty years after his death, fearing the Egyptian
papyri, once deciphered, might reveal an Egyptian
knowledge predating the Greek one - I got this from
a TV documentary (and if TV domcumentaries are
nonsense, why did you participate in one yourself?).
[/quote]
Did I? What does "documentary" mean to you? Maybe I was involved in a
TV series because I was a "consultant" on it and therefore had input
into what would be presented to the public in it. (Though I am not
aware that it has been broadcast anywhere yet.)

[quote]Adam Funk: what does "recognized right away by
well-known authorities" mean? Derk Ohelnroth>s
book was quickly sold out, although being very
expensive, every university library and every
archaeological library hereabouts bought a copy.
Peter: what is your opinion about the origin of the
alphabet? If a script consists of signs that render
neither words nor syllables but single consonants
and vowels we speak of an alphabetic script.
[/quote]
Under that (correct) definition, the alphabet originated for Greek,
ca. 800 BCE.

[quote]The
big shortcoming of The World>s Writing Systems
is your complete omission of the graphic origin of writing.
The oldest examples of writing identified so far (mainly
by me)
[/quote]
When was the book published? When did you make your "identification"?

[quote]are abstract signs accompanying cave art,
figurative reliefs (Göbekli Tepe), and Vinca figurines
(signs on the surface can both be read as cloth,
for example, and as message, name of the goddess,
cross line angle - Ki Ri Ke - Circe). Now in the case
of the Elaia disk and of the Tiryns disk we have
another example of visual and verbal language,
a last survivor of the Vinca tradition that also marks
the begin of a new tradition in writing, namely the
use of an alphabetic script, and the Tiryns disk
is the most fascinating example of a combined
visual and verbal message I ever encountered.
[/quote]
Then maybe you should devote your energies to writing an article for
the journal *Kadmos* that will persuade the experts you hate so much,
instead of posting your fantasies to sci.lang.

Adam Funk · Guest

On 2008-07-26, Franz Gnaedinger wrote:

[quote]Influential people denied Champollion>s achievement
until twenty years after his death, fearing the Egyptian
papyri, once deciphered, might reveal an Egyptian
knowledge predating the Greek one - I got this from
a TV documentary (and if TV domcumentaries are
nonsense, why did you participate in one yourself?).
Adam Funk: what does "recognized right away by
well-known authorities" mean?
[/quote]
Thomas Young praised Champollion>s book despite his belief that
Champollion should have given him more credit.

(BTW, your posts would be a lot easier to read if you separated
paragraphs.)

--
Bob just used 'canonical' in the canonical way. [Guy Steele]

Adam Funk · Guest

On 2008-07-26, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

[quote]On Jul 26, 2:28 am, Franz Gnaedinger <f...@bluemail.ch> wrote:

The
big shortcoming of The World>s Writing Systems
is your complete omission of the graphic origin of writing.
The oldest examples of writing identified so far (mainly
by me)

When was the book published? When did you make your "identification"?
[/quote]
You could give him a chapter in the next edition!

--
I heard that Hans Christian Andersen lifted the title for "The Little
Mermaid" off a Red Lobster Menu. [Bucky Katt]

Franz Gnaedinger · Guest

On Jul 26, 2:05 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]
Name them, and name your source.
[/quote]
My source: a TVdocumentary in several parts on Champollion.
The electromagnetic waves of that program left our galaxy,
at a speed of nearly 300,000 kilometers per second, no way
for me to get them back.

[quote]Under that (correct) definition, the alphabet originated for Greek,
ca. 800 BCE.
[/quote]
Big surprise for you: the first Greek alphabet is by more than
800 years older. Read the book by Derk Ohlenroth. You found
every silly excuse for not even looking at his book. I told you
the title and ISBN and ordering number in the public library
of New York, and offered to send you photocopies of the most
important pages. To no avail. May I send you twenty dollars
for the subway ticket to the public library, plus a Cola and
perhaps a Mars bar in the library? You will need plenty of
sugar for your brain, as the book is highly demanding,
scholarly by every standard of academe, and then some more.

[quote]When was the book published? When did you make your "identification"?
[/quote]
The connection of visual language and verbal language
is known since a long time. Also the Sumerian writing
system developed from figurative representations.

[quote]Then maybe you should devote your energies to writing an article for
the journal *Kadmos* that will persuade the experts you hate so much,
instead of posting your fantasies to sci.lang.
[/quote]
Derk Ohlenroth>s book is scientific by every standard of
academe, yet you and many others ignore it. And I told you
that I can>t publish in journals. I told you about the paper
I wrote together with an emerited professor. He wrote the
historical and Romanistic part (clash of the humanists at
Rome in the Early Renaissance with the Unholy Inquisition,
Leon Battista Alberti as author of the Hypnerotomachia
Poliphili) and I the mathematical part (ingenious measuring
system invented by Leonardo Fibonacci, developed by
Leon Battista Alberti, used for the buildings in the HP).
He submitted our paper to the journal that published most
of his articles, back in 2004. We are still waiting for an
answer. In 2005 I published our paper online, with his
consent: www.seshat.ch/home/alberti.htm I don>t even
try to submit a paper at Kadmos, I found my virtual exile
in the Web, and the Usenet with the Google interface
and archive is the ideal agora for me. I still hope that
we can develop it into a free and open university ...

Franz Gnaedinger · Guest

[quote]Derk Ohlenroth>s book is scientific by every standard of
academe, yet you and many others ignore it. And I told you
that I can>t publish in journals. I told you about the paper
I wrote together with an emerited professor. He wrote the
historical and Romanistic part (clash of the humanists at
Rome in the Early Renaissance with the Unholy Inquisition,
Leon Battista Alberti as author of the Hypnerotomachia
Poliphili) and I the mathematical part (ingenious measuring
system invented by Leonardo Fibonacci, developed by
Leon Battista Alberti, used for the buildings in the HP).
He submitted our paper to the journal that published most
of his articles, back in 2004. We are still waiting for an
answer. In 2005 I published our paper online, with his
consent: www.seshat.ch/home/alberti.htm I don>t even
try to submit a paper at Kadmos, I found my virtual exile
in the Web, and the Usenet with the Google interface
and archive is the ideal agora for me. I still hope that
we can develop it into a free and open university ...
[/quote]
I go on, because my message has bee killrated again.
Killing ideas is the hobby of the mentally impotent.


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