Science and Technology news... :: View topic - Hydrogen from sugar water ( Onboard production ).

T Rex · Guest

Popular Science.

Hydrogen on demand by Onboard reforming ( Using sugar water ).

Imagine pulling up to a Texaco station and pumping your SUV full of
sugar water. If a new hydrogen fuel cell idea takes off, someday you
might be doing just that.

The idea could solve a fundamental fuel cell problem: To travel any
useful distance, a fuel cell car would need to carry hydrogen gas
under pressure, requiring a heavy, bulky fuel tank. Some experimental
autos solve the problem by carrying liquid fuel and extracting
hydrogen from it on the run—a method called onboard reforming.

This new procedure, which produces hydrogen from glucose and related
carbohydrates, was developed by chemical engineers James Dumesic,
Randy Cortright and Rupali Davda at the University of
Wisconsin-Madison. A platinum-based catalyst breaks down the
carbohydrates into carbon monoxide and hydrogen gas. The carbon
monoxide reacts with water to produce carbon dioxide and more
hydrogen. Everything happens in one container, with the liquid
solution under pressure at a relatively low 400?F. That, according to
Cortright, makes it well-suited for onboard reforming in a fuel cell
car; other reforming methods, he says, have required temperatures four
times hotter.

Glucose is a renewable sugar. It is already mass-produced from corn
and can also be derived from many kinds of biomass waste. Response
from the auto industry is guarded. The process "has a lot of appeal,
but also has major challenges," says Tom Moore, head of
DaimlerChrysler>s Liberty and Technical Affairs Division. He points
out that "vast amounts of space" would be required to grow enough
plants to fuel America>s auto fleet. Still, the auto giant is
interested enough in the Wisconsin project to provide some funding for
further research.

Don Lancaster · Guest

T Rex wrote:
[quote]
Popular Science.

Hydrogen on demand by Onboard reforming ( Using sugar water ).

Imagine pulling up to a Texaco station and pumping your SUV full of
sugar water. If a new hydrogen fuel cell idea takes off, someday you
might be doing just that.
[/quote]
And the energy density of sugar water is?
I would seriously doubt that it could even approach ONE watthour per
liter.
Compared to gasoline, your tank would have to be 9000 times larger.

Seems to me there is something obvious that the present fuel cell
designs are missing:
Methanol stores about 5000 watthours per liter. Place it in a ten
percent water solution (as is being touted for airplane use, etc) and
you have 500 watthours per liter at best.

Which is pretty much the same energy density as lithium batteries.
Why bother with an inefficient and costly new system?
What do you gain?

--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
voice: (928)428-4073 email: don@tinaja.com fax 847-574-1462

Please visit my GURU>s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Tim Ward · Guest

"Don Lancaster" <don@tinaja.com> wrote in message
news:3FE329F4.69123B1C@tinaja.com...
[quote]T Rex wrote:

Popular Science.

Hydrogen on demand by Onboard reforming ( Using sugar water ).

Imagine pulling up to a Texaco station and pumping your SUV full of
sugar water. If a new hydrogen fuel cell idea takes off, someday you
might be doing just that.

And the energy density of sugar water is?
I would seriously doubt that it could even approach ONE watthour per
liter.
Compared to gasoline, your tank would have to be 9000 times larger.

Seems to me there is something obvious that the present fuel cell
designs are missing:
Methanol stores about 5000 watthours per liter. Place it in a ten
percent water solution (as is being touted for airplane use, etc) and
you have 500 watthours per liter at best.

Which is pretty much the same energy density as lithium batteries.
Why bother with an inefficient and costly new system?
What do you gain?

--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
voice: (928)428-4073 email: don@tinaja.com fax 847-574-1462

Please visit my GURU>s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
[/quote]
The ability to "recharge" in minutes rather than hours?

Tim Ward

Dan Bloomquist · Guest

Tim Ward wrote:
[quote]"Don Lancaster" <don@tinaja.com> wrote in message
news:3FE329F4.69123B1C@tinaja.com...

T Rex wrote:

Popular Science.

Hydrogen on demand by Onboard reforming ( Using sugar water ).

Imagine pulling up to a Texaco station and pumping your SUV full of
sugar water. If a new hydrogen fuel cell idea takes off, someday you
might be doing just that.

And the energy density of sugar water is?
I would seriously doubt that it could even approach ONE watthour per
liter.
Compared to gasoline, your tank would have to be 9000 times larger.

Seems to me there is something obvious that the present fuel cell
designs are missing:
Methanol stores about 5000 watthours per liter. Place it in a ten
percent water solution (as is being touted for airplane use, etc) and
you have 500 watthours per liter at best.

Which is pretty much the same energy density as lithium batteries.
Why bother with an inefficient and costly new system?
What do you gain?

--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
voice: (928)428-4073 email: don@tinaja.com fax 847-574-1462

Please visit my GURU>s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

The ability to "recharge" in minutes rather than hours?

Tim Ward

[/quote]
I suppose what really maters is how much energy per given weight. Sugars
look to be about half hydrocarbons. (Lot>s of extra oxygen that doesn>t
lend to oxidation. Nitrates on the other hand, pack some punch.) The
water would be easy to recycle from the exhaust so you don>t need to
fill up with solution. But a watthour/liter, give me a break. I>ve mixed
enough hummingbird food to know better.

More realistic is the question of where all this sugar would come from.

Best, Dan.

--
http://lakeweb.net
http://ReserveAnalyst.com
dbAtLakewebDotCom

Niko Järvinen · Guest

"Tim Ward" <tjward@example.pe.net> kirjoitti viestissä
news:vu7bs3jfbek8f5@corp.supernews.com...
[quote]
"Don Lancaster" <don@tinaja.com> wrote in message
news:3FE329F4.69123B1C@tinaja.com...
T Rex wrote:

Popular Science.

Hydrogen on demand by Onboard reforming ( Using sugar water ).

Imagine pulling up to a Texaco station and pumping your SUV full of
sugar water. If a new hydrogen fuel cell idea takes off, someday you
might be doing just that.

And the energy density of sugar water is?
I would seriously doubt that it could even approach ONE watthour per
liter.
Compared to gasoline, your tank would have to be 9000 times larger.

Seems to me there is something obvious that the present fuel cell
designs are missing:
Methanol stores about 5000 watthours per liter. Place it in a ten
percent water solution (as is being touted for airplane use, etc) and
you have 500 watthours per liter at best.

Which is pretty much the same energy density as lithium batteries.
Why bother with an inefficient and costly new system?
What do you gain?

--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
voice: (928)428-4073 email: don@tinaja.com fax 847-574-1462

Please visit my GURU>s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

The ability to "recharge" in minutes rather than hours?

Tim Ward
[/quote]
Have you ever thought what happens to lithium batteries when they stand lets
say for one day in
-30 C? If they act even near like any other batteries they are one of the
worst objections to use in car.
Atleast here in northern Europe.

--

-NRJ-

Balnea, vina, Venus corrumpunt corpora nostra.
Sed vitam faciunt balnea, vina Venus.

Don Lancaster · Guest

"Niko Järvinen" wrote:
[quote]
"Tim Ward" <tjward@example.pe.net> kirjoitti viestissä
news:vu7bs3jfbek8f5@corp.supernews.com...

"Don Lancaster" <don@tinaja.com> wrote in message

Seems to me there is something obvious that the present fuel cell
designs are missing:
Methanol stores about 5000 watthours per liter. Place it in a ten
percent water solution (as is being touted for airplane use, etc) and
you have 500 watthours per liter at best.

Which is pretty much the same energy density as lithium batteries.
Why bother with an inefficient and costly new system?
What do you gain?

--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
voice: (928)428-4073 email: don@tinaja.com fax 847-574-1462

Please visit my GURU>s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

The ability to "recharge" in minutes rather than hours?

Tim Ward

Have you ever thought what happens to lithium batteries when they stand lets
say for one day in
-30 C? If they act even near like any other batteries they are one of the
worst objections to use in car.
Atleast here in northern Europe.

--

-NRJ-

[/quote]

So far we have thus established that weak methanol powered fuel cells
might be of passing interest to impatient eskimos.

Seems to me that a fuel cell system has to blow lithium away on energy
density before it will become a spectacular success.

--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
voice: (928)428-4073 email: don@tinaja.com fax 847-574-1462

Please visit my GURU>s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Jeff · Guest

[quote]
So far we have thus established that weak methanol powered fuel cells
might be of passing interest to impatient eskimos.

Seems to me that a fuel cell system has to blow lithium away on energy
density before it will become a spectacular success.

[/quote]
Another thing with batteries, if you use them for anything high powered,
they will self heat, thus bringing their efficiency up. LiION are not
effected much by cold, compared to other batteries anyway.

Check out (note the shifted Y axis):
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/images/pdf/Panasonic_LiIon_C
GR18650A.pdf

It seems to show that Ah capacity declines a little, and the voltage drops
slightly at 0 deg C (WH capacity drop likely around 15 - 20%). I suspect
that the Wh capacity would still be over 50% at the generally uncommon -30
deg C.

Niko Järvinen · Guest

"Don Lancaster" <don@tinaja.com> kirjoitti viestissä
news:3FE478A6.395F2EF4@tinaja.com...
[quote]"Niko Järvinen" wrote:

"Tim Ward" <tjward@example.pe.net> kirjoitti viestissä
news:vu7bs3jfbek8f5@corp.supernews.com...

"Don Lancaster" <don@tinaja.com> wrote in message

Seems to me there is something obvious that the present fuel cell
designs are missing:
Methanol stores about 5000 watthours per liter. Place it in a ten
percent water solution (as is being touted for airplane use, etc)
and
you have 500 watthours per liter at best.

Which is pretty much the same energy density as lithium batteries.
Why bother with an inefficient and costly new system?
What do you gain?

--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
voice: (928)428-4073 email: don@tinaja.com fax 847-574-1462

Please visit my GURU>s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

The ability to "recharge" in minutes rather than hours?

Tim Ward

Have you ever thought what happens to lithium batteries when they stand
lets
say for one day in
-30 C? If they act even near like any other batteries they are one of
the
worst objections to use in car.
Atleast here in northern Europe.

--

-NRJ-

So far we have thus established that weak methanol powered fuel cells
might be of passing interest to impatient eskimos.

Seems to me that a fuel cell system has to blow lithium away on energy
density before it will become a spectacular success.

--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
voice: (928)428-4073 email: don@tinaja.com fax 847-574-1462

Please visit my GURU>s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
[/quote]
Hmm, you are saying that Finnish people are eskimos? Doh, didnt know that
allthough I live here. Thank you for teaching me something new.
Or people in Denmark. Or how about Russia and China? Or Switzerland and the
Alps?
And dont forget the Greenland.

I´d say that in all European countries temperature goes below zero during
the year.

So what would happen to their cars then? They would be useless if they would
be using lithium batteries.
I think there would be very few countries where people could use lithium
battery powered cars whole year.

-NRJ-

Jeff · Guest

"Don Lancaster" <don@tinaja.com> wrote in message
news:3FE329F4.69123B1C@tinaja.com...
[quote]T Rex wrote:

Popular Science.

Hydrogen on demand by Onboard reforming ( Using sugar water ).

Imagine pulling up to a Texaco station and pumping your SUV full of
sugar water. If a new hydrogen fuel cell idea takes off, someday you
might be doing just that.

And the energy density of sugar water is?
[/quote]
Sugar contains about 16,000 kj/kg. Perhaps some sort of hydrating system
could be incorporated with the fuel cell before it goes to the recombiner,
allowing the energy storing to be equal to the energy density of sugar. Even
sugar slightly hydrated like Corn Syrup could be used, thus keeping the
energy density high. I would think at least 10,000 kj/kg would be possible,
which would likely be something like 12,000 to 15,000 kj/l. Assume a 60%
recombiner efficiency, and a 60% fuel cell efficiency, and an electric
motor/transmission efficiecy of 80%, the overall process would get about
28.8% of the energy to the wheels.

Gasoline contains about 42,000 kj/kg, or 38,000 kj/l

Gasoline engines get about 14 to 18% of their energy input to the wheels
(about 20% average engine efficiency, slight losss from transmission, and
parasitic loads such as the water pump, electronics to keep it running,
power steering pump, etc). Gasoline enegines also use tons of fuel doing
nothing when idling in traffic.

So, the gas car needs 1.6 to 2 times the energy to go the same distance.
Assuming 12,000 kj/l for the sugar water, means we would need 1.5 to 2 L of
sugar water to replace 1 L of gas.

Seems acceptable, athough the system would be a little complex, and where
would the sugar come from.

[quote]I would seriously doubt that it could even approach ONE watthour per
liter.
Compared to gasoline, your tank would have to be 9000 times larger.

Seems to me there is something obvious that the present fuel cell
designs are missing:
Methanol stores about 5000 watthours per liter.
Place it in a ten
percent water solution (as is being touted for airplane use, etc) and
you have 500 watthours per liter at best.

Which is pretty much the same energy density as lithium batteries.
[/quote]
These are very promising, if they drop in price enough.

[quote]Why bother with an inefficient and costly new system?
What do you gain?
[/quote]
1) Quick refills for the people who don>t want to wait for long recharges
(which I don>t understand for general daily travel, considering LiION cars
are breaking the 300 mile range at 60 MPH, which would likely be 600 miles
at slower speeds. Long travel can be supplemented with a gen set).

2) Organizations maintain control. Energy is a major (maybe the biggest)
part of the economy, and governments tax energy depending on its intended
use.

[quote]
--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
voice: (928)428-4073 email: don@tinaja.com fax 847-574-1462

Please visit my GURU>s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com[/quote]

Jeff · Guest

"Niko Järvinen" <niko.jarvinen@pp8.inet.fi> wrote in message
news:3m1Fb.431$ek.349@read3.inet.fi...
[quote]
"Don Lancaster" <don@tinaja.com> kirjoitti viestissä
news:3FE478A6.395F2EF4@tinaja.com...
"Niko Järvinen" wrote:

"Tim Ward" <tjward@example.pe.net> kirjoitti viestissä
news:vu7bs3jfbek8f5@corp.supernews.com...

"Don Lancaster" <don@tinaja.com> wrote in message

Seems to me there is something obvious that the present fuel cell
designs are missing:
Methanol stores about 5000 watthours per liter. Place it in a ten
percent water solution (as is being touted for airplane use, etc)
and
you have 500 watthours per liter at best.

Which is pretty much the same energy density as lithium batteries.
Why bother with an inefficient and costly new system?
What do you gain?

--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
voice: (928)428-4073 email: don@tinaja.com fax 847-574-1462

Please visit my GURU>s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

The ability to "recharge" in minutes rather than hours?

Tim Ward

Have you ever thought what happens to lithium batteries when they
stand
lets
say for one day in
-30 C? If they act even near like any other batteries they are one of
the
worst objections to use in car.
Atleast here in northern Europe.

--

-NRJ-

So far we have thus established that weak methanol powered fuel cells
might be of passing interest to impatient eskimos.

Seems to me that a fuel cell system has to blow lithium away on energy
density before it will become a spectacular success.

--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
voice: (928)428-4073 email: don@tinaja.com fax 847-574-1462

Please visit my GURU>s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Hmm, you are saying that Finnish people are eskimos? Doh, didnt know that
allthough I live here. Thank you for teaching me something new.
Or people in Denmark. Or how about Russia and China? Or Switzerland and
the
Alps?
And dont forget the Greenland.

I´d say that in all European countries temperature goes below zero during
the year.

So what would happen to their cars then? They would be useless if they
would
be using lithium batteries.
I think there would be very few countries where people could use lithium
battery powered cars whole year.
[/quote]
LiION cells are not affected nearly as much as other batteries, and in an
electric car, they would be heavily loaded, and would thus internally
generate heat. It would therefore not be much of a problem with LiION
batteries. LiION CELLS DO NOT BEHAVE THE SAME AS LEAD ACID BATTERIES which
do not do well in the cold. NiMh can preform poorly in the cold as well.

Take a look at the battery performance curves at 0 deg C (I>d roughly
estimate they are down about 15%-20% MAX):

http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/images/pdf/Panasonic_LiIon_C
GR18650A.pdf

[quote]
-NRJ-

[/quote]

Niko Järvinen · Guest

"Jeff" <levy_jeff@hotmail.com> kirjoitti viestissä
news:kM0Fb.16895$IF6.724475@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...
[quote]

So far we have thus established that weak methanol powered fuel cells
might be of passing interest to impatient eskimos.

Seems to me that a fuel cell system has to blow lithium away on energy
density before it will become a spectacular success.

Another thing with batteries, if you use them for anything high powered,
they will self heat, thus bringing their efficiency up.
[/quote]
Thats true.

[quote]LiION are not
effected much by cold, compared to other batteries anyway.
[/quote]
Hmm... I based my opinions for this:

My father got LiION battery in his mobile phone.
Its excellent battery as long as he stays inside.
Because when he goes outside (temperature is about +5 C) and he has his
mobile phone
in his pocket and stays there about 1 hour, he can speak with fully charged
battery for about 10 seconds.
And then battery is dead.
My Ni-MH battery is better, but not perfect either.

[quote]
Check out (note the shifted Y axis):

http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/images/pdf/Panasonic_LiIon_CGR18650A.pdf[/quote]

[quote]It seems to show that Ah capacity declines a little, and the voltage drops
slightly at 0 deg C (WH capacity drop likely around 15 - 20%). I suspect
that the Wh capacity would still be over 50% at the generally uncommon -30
deg C.
[/quote]
Ok, I was apparently wrong =)

-NRJ-

Niko Järvinen · Guest

"Jeff" <levy_jeff@hotmail.com> kirjoitti viestissä
news:3P1Fb.16917$IF6.725633@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...
[quote]
"Niko Järvinen" <niko.jarvinen@pp8.inet.fi> wrote in message
news:3m1Fb.431$ek.349@read3.inet.fi...

"Don Lancaster" <don@tinaja.com> kirjoitti viestissä
news:3FE478A6.395F2EF4@tinaja.com...
"Niko Järvinen" wrote:

"Tim Ward" <tjward@example.pe.net> kirjoitti viestissä
news:vu7bs3jfbek8f5@corp.supernews.com...

"Don Lancaster" <don@tinaja.com> wrote in message

Seems to me there is something obvious that the present fuel
cell
designs are missing:
Methanol stores about 5000 watthours per liter. Place it in a
ten
percent water solution (as is being touted for airplane use,
etc)
and
you have 500 watthours per liter at best.

Which is pretty much the same energy density as lithium
batteries.
Why bother with an inefficient and costly new system?
What do you gain?

--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ
85552
voice: (928)428-4073 email: don@tinaja.com fax 847-574-1462

Please visit my GURU>s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

The ability to "recharge" in minutes rather than hours?

Tim Ward

Have you ever thought what happens to lithium batteries when they
stand
lets
say for one day in
-30 C? If they act even near like any other batteries they are one
of
the
worst objections to use in car.
Atleast here in northern Europe.

--

-NRJ-

So far we have thus established that weak methanol powered fuel cells
might be of passing interest to impatient eskimos.

Seems to me that a fuel cell system has to blow lithium away on energy
density before it will become a spectacular success.

--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
voice: (928)428-4073 email: don@tinaja.com fax 847-574-1462

Please visit my GURU>s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Hmm, you are saying that Finnish people are eskimos? Doh, didnt know
that
allthough I live here. Thank you for teaching me something new.
Or people in Denmark. Or how about Russia and China? Or Switzerland and
the
Alps?
And dont forget the Greenland.

I´d say that in all European countries temperature goes below zero
during
the year.

So what would happen to their cars then? They would be useless if they
would
be using lithium batteries.
I think there would be very few countries where people could use lithium
battery powered cars whole year.

LiION cells are not affected nearly as much as other batteries, and in an
electric car, they would be heavily loaded, and would thus internally
generate heat. It would therefore not be much of a problem with LiION
batteries. LiION CELLS DO NOT BEHAVE THE SAME AS LEAD ACID BATTERIES which
do not do well in the cold. NiMh can preform poorly in the cold as well.

Take a look at the battery performance curves at 0 deg C (I>d roughly
estimate they are down about 15%-20% MAX):

http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/images/pdf/Panasonic_LiIon_C
GR18650A.pdf

-NRJ-

[/quote]

Yep, see my other post.

-NRJ-

Jeff · Guest

"Niko Järvinen" <niko.jarvinen@pp8.inet.fi> wrote in message
news:c%1Fb.465$ek.55@read3.inet.fi...
[quote]
"Jeff" <levy_jeff@hotmail.com> kirjoitti viestissä
news:kM0Fb.16895$IF6.724475@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...

So far we have thus established that weak methanol powered fuel cells
might be of passing interest to impatient eskimos.

Seems to me that a fuel cell system has to blow lithium away on energy
density before it will become a spectacular success.

Another thing with batteries, if you use them for anything high powered,
they will self heat, thus bringing their efficiency up.

Thats true.

LiION are not
effected much by cold, compared to other batteries anyway.

Hmm... I based my opinions for this:

My father got LiION battery in his mobile phone.
Its excellent battery as long as he stays inside.
Because when he goes outside (temperature is about +5 C) and he has his
mobile phone
in his pocket and stays there about 1 hour, he can speak with fully
charged
battery for about 10 seconds.
[/quote]
There is something wrong with his phone - I>ve owned several phone batteries
(Nokia) consisting of NiMH, Li Polymer (Hybrid), and LiION. The LiION>s
stood up the best. I never really given the Li Polymer a good cold test, as
the tests are done by accident, but I suspect it would be close to the
LiION. I>ve gotten my phones so cold leaving them in the car, that when I
went to use them the display would take several seconds to respond!

[quote]And then battery is dead.
My Ni-MH battery is better, but not perfect either.

Check out (note the shifted Y axis):

http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/images/pdf/Panasonic_LiIon_C[/quote]
GR18650A.pdf
[quote]
It seems to show that Ah capacity declines a little, and the voltage
drops
slightly at 0 deg C (WH capacity drop likely around 15 - 20%). I suspect
that the Wh capacity would still be over 50% at the generally
uncommon -30
deg C.

Ok, I was apparently wrong =)

-NRJ-

[/quote]

Niko Järvinen · Guest

"Jeff" <levy_jeff@hotmail.com> kirjoitti viestissä
news:Yi3Fb.16976$IF6.727372@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...
[quote]
"Niko Järvinen" <niko.jarvinen@pp8.inet.fi> wrote in message
news:c%1Fb.465$ek.55@read3.inet.fi...

"Jeff" <levy_jeff@hotmail.com> kirjoitti viestissä
news:kM0Fb.16895$IF6.724475@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...

So far we have thus established that weak methanol powered fuel
cells
might be of passing interest to impatient eskimos.

Seems to me that a fuel cell system has to blow lithium away on
energy
density before it will become a spectacular success.

Another thing with batteries, if you use them for anything high
powered,
they will self heat, thus bringing their efficiency up.

Thats true.

LiION are not
effected much by cold, compared to other batteries anyway.

Hmm... I based my opinions for this:

My father got LiION battery in his mobile phone.
Its excellent battery as long as he stays inside.
Because when he goes outside (temperature is about +5 C) and he has his
mobile phone
in his pocket and stays there about 1 hour, he can speak with fully
charged
battery for about 10 seconds.

There is something wrong with his phone - I>ve owned several phone
batteries
(Nokia) consisting of NiMH, Li Polymer (Hybrid), and LiION. The LiION>s
stood up the best. I never really given the Li Polymer a good cold test,
as
the tests are done by accident, but I suspect it would be close to the
LiION.
[/quote]
Then my dad must have had about 5 phones or batteries which have all had
some kind of problems.
I´ve also heard few salesman to say that lithium batteries are bad choice if
you are going to use your phone
outdoors.

[quote]I>ve gotten my phones so cold leaving them in the car, that when I
went to use them the display would take several seconds to respond!
[/quote]
Yep, same here.

[quote]And then battery is dead.
My Ni-MH battery is better, but not perfect either.

[/quote]

Jeff · Guest

<snip>

[quote]
Then my dad must have had about 5 phones or batteries which have all had
some kind of problems.
I´ve also heard few salesman to say that lithium batteries are bad choice
if
you are going to use your phone
outdoors.
[/quote]
I>ve looked into this some more. The REACTION RATES in the LiION cells
become very slow at cold temperatures. The cells could not produce enough
energy fast enough to run the phones during talk (high drain) mode. My
phones usually had large battery packs, so this was much less of a problem
for me. This may be a bit of a problem in a electric car, but could be
easily overcome by a warm up time, where a lot of energy is pulled through
the battery pack to warm up the cells (remember cold cells not being able to
react fast enough have a really high internal resistance, and will thus
generate lots of heat). The energy drawn could be used to run a heat pump to
pre heat the interior, so that the energy does not get wasted.

[quote]
I>ve gotten my phones so cold leaving them in the car, that when I
went to use them the display would take several seconds to respond!

Yep, same here.

And then battery is dead.
My Ni-MH battery is better, but not perfect either.

[/quote]


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