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Jack Linthicum · Guest

On Nov 24, 10:34 am, Fred J. McCall <fjmcc...@gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]hcobb <henry.c...@gmail.com> wrote:

:On Nov 23, 2:31 pm, Fred J. McCall <fjmcc...@gmail.com> wrote:
:> How many airplanes do you need to be able to keep enough of them up
:> and on patrol 24/7?
:
:Once the Orions are pulled from Iraq (their job in Afghanistan would
:be over by now, if that had been handled correctly...)
:

We>re operating Anti-Submarine Warfare aircraft over Afghanistan? No
wonder that>s not working!

:
:... and combined
:with allied patrol aircraft there will be enough to cover the area of
:operation. (At the cost of not patrolling other areas in the world.)
:

I suspect that once again you don>t know what you>re talking about.
Just how many aircraft how far apart do you think that is?

--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
[/quote]
No, it>s working to perfection

hcobb · Guest

On Nov 24, 7:34 am, Fred J. McCall <fjmcc...@gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]We>re operating Anti-Submarine Warfare aircraft over Afghanistan? No
wonder that>s not working!
[/quote]
Just you try and pry those ASW aircraft away from our land forces in
Afghanistan and Iraq.

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/001967.html
Over Iraq, Orions have been all but hijacked by the Marine Corps,
which plants a colonel aboard and uses the Orions as command posts.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/features/feature1950/
In fact, the Lockheed Martin P-3s flying with the Royal Australian Air
Force (RAAF) over Iraq have taken over a whole new role and have
seemingly successfully mixed an old platform with new technology to
become a cutting edge in detecting threats and improvised explosive
devices (IEDs).

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-84338381.html
A lumbering Navy airplane first designed to scan the oceans for Soviet
submarines played an unlikely pivotal role over the sharp ridges of
eastern Afghanistan in the war>s largest land battle.

-HJC

Roger Conroy · Guest

"Andrew Swallow" <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:76idnSZoOqi2mLfUnZ2dnUVZ8rqdnZ2d@bt.com...
[quote]deemsbill@aol.com wrote:
On Nov 23, 12:51 am, Andrew Swallow <am.swal...@btinternet.com> wrote:
deemsb...@aol.com wrote:
On Nov 22, 11:11 pm, Andrew Swallow <am.swal...@btinternet.com> wrote:
deemsb...@aol.com wrote:
On Nov 22, 2:23 pm, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk
wrote:
deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:49ae014e-8c2c-4a6f-893e-9d5dc3d8e0b4@3g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
:
Because they have to take the ship somewhere to get to someplace
shallow enough to anchor?
Of course, there>s also a problem with disabling the engines, which
is
that the ship is now adrift without power and probably not quickly
repairable. Not something you generally want to have happen to you.
--
Not to mention a dozen or so really pissed-off guys armed with
AKs.
------------
AKs you can live with.
Reports seem to indicate that they>ve got something like the RPG-29
--
William Black
I think AKs would be more useful for the "slaughter the crew"
party.
If they kill the crew then the special forces either kill the pirates
or hand them over to a country with the death penalty. Similar rules
to people taking hostages on land.
Andrew Swallow-
Which doesn>t help the dead crew in the least. You seem to
think these pirates are rational and disciplined. Do you really think
they>ll board a ship and then say "Good for you! You disabled the
engines. Since we can>t get it to port, I guess we>ll just leave. Have
a nice day!"?
They will not do it again and their friends will hear what happened.

Andrew Swallow

I>m sure the crew and their families will be thrilled. Besides,
do you think they>ll just sit on the ship and wait to be killed? They
will still have their boats and have a shot at getting away.

Something is stopping every coastal village in Britain from being a
pirate>s den.

Andrew Swallow
[/quote]
Functional economy and effective government - both are conspiciously absent
in Somalia.

William Black · Guest

"Andrew Swallow" <am.swallow@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:76idnSZoOqi2mLfUnZ2dnUVZ8rqdnZ2d@bt.com...

[quote]Something is stopping every coastal village in Britain from being a
pirate>s den.
[/quote]
Two hundred years ago the coast of Britain was a smuggler>s den.

Smugglers were better armed than the local authorities and smugglers beat
off the French attack on Bridlington when the local coastal defences were
overwhelmed.

This was allowed because it suited the Royal Navy.

They used the smugglers as an intelligence source in the war with France,
but this didn>t stop the smugglers murdering and assaulting excise officers
and the soldiers sent to help them.

To this day armed police are deployed in support of HM Customs officers when
combating smugglers on the coast.

--
William Black

I>ve seen things you people wouldn>t believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

deemsbill@aol.com · Guest

On Nov 24, 11:57 am, Fred J. McCall <fjmcc...@gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]richardcas...@earthlink.net (Richard Casady) wrote:

:On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 22:13:28 -0700, Fred J. McCall:<fjmcc...@gmail.com> wrote:

:
:>You need time to start the helo and get it airborne. Even if the crew
:>is kept ready 24/7 this is going to take at least 5 minutes. That
:>reduces your time by a third.
:
:Why so long? Turn the key and go. Turbine engines don>t need to be
:warmed up.
:

Since when? You have to run them up to speed and get them stable.
Then you have to get off the deck, maneuver, and get up to speed on
vector.

Ready Five is about as fast as it gets.

[/quote]
Not to mention making sure things are working
correctly......preferably before you get into the air.....

hcobb · Guest

On Nov 24, 8:57 am, Fred J. McCall <fjmcc...@gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]richardcas...@earthlink.net (Richard Casady) wrote:
:On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 22:13:28 -0700, Fred J. McCall:<fjmcc...@gmail.com> wrote:
:>You need time to start the helo and get it airborne. Even if the crew
:>is kept ready 24/7 this is going to take at least 5 minutes. That
:>reduces your time by a third.
:
:Why so long? Turn the key and go. Turbine engines don>t need to be
:warmed up.
:

Since when? You have to run them up to speed and get them stable.
Then you have to get off the deck, maneuver, and get up to speed on
vector.

Ready Five is about as fast as it gets.
[/quote]
Plus are you going to have your flight crew strapped in to their seats
for four hours while the ship bounces on the waves waiting for the
call?

And the helicopter could be busy with other missions at the time.

So it>s much better to use a combination of UAVs and helicopters, like
USS Freedom.

-HJC

Richard Casady · Guest

On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 22:13:28 -0700, Fred J. McCall
<fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:

[quote]You need time to start the helo and get it airborne. Even if the crew
is kept ready 24/7 this is going to take at least 5 minutes. That
reduces your time by a third.
[/quote]
Why so long? Turn the key and go. Turbine engines don>t need to be
warmed up.

Casady

Fred J. McCall · Guest

hcobb <henry.cobb@gmail.com> wrote:

:On Nov 23, 2:31 pm, Fred J. McCall <fjmcc...@gmail.com> wrote:
:> How many airplanes do you need to be able to keep enough of them up
:> and on patrol 24/7?
:
:Once the Orions are pulled from Iraq (their job in Afghanistan would
:be over by now, if that had been handled correctly...)
:

We>re operating Anti-Submarine Warfare aircraft over Afghanistan? No
wonder that>s not working!

:
:... and combined
:with allied patrol aircraft there will be enough to cover the area of
:operation. (At the cost of not patrolling other areas in the world.)
:

I suspect that once again you don>t know what you>re talking about.
Just how many aircraft how far apart do you think that is?

--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson

Fred J. McCall · Guest

richardcasady@earthlink.net (Richard Casady) wrote:

:On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 22:13:28 -0700, Fred J. McCall
:<fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:
:
:>You need time to start the helo and get it airborne. Even if the crew
:>is kept ready 24/7 this is going to take at least 5 minutes. That
:>reduces your time by a third.
:
:Why so long? Turn the key and go. Turbine engines don>t need to be
:warmed up.
:

Since when? You have to run them up to speed and get them stable.
Then you have to get off the deck, maneuver, and get up to speed on
vector.

Ready Five is about as fast as it gets.

--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson

Richard Casady · Guest

On Mon, 24 Nov 2008 08:29:51 -0800 (PST), hcobb <henry.cobb@gmail.com>
wrote:

[quote]A lumbering Navy airplane first designed to scan the oceans for Soviet
submarines played an unlikely pivotal role over the sharp ridges of
eastern Afghanistan in the war>s largest land battle.
[/quote]
First designed as an airliner. I rode one to USAF boot camp in 66.
Called " Electra ".

Casady

Roger Conroy · Guest

"Richard Casady" <richardcasady@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4952b1fc.598819578@news.east.earthlink.net...
[quote]On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 22:13:28 -0700, Fred J. McCall
fjmccall@gmail.com> wrote:

You need time to start the helo and get it airborne. Even if the crew
is kept ready 24/7 this is going to take at least 5 minutes. That
reduces your time by a third.

Why so long? Turn the key and go. Turbine engines don>t need to be
warmed up.

Casady
[/quote]
You>ve never actually seen a turbine powered helicopter starting up right?

Fred J. McCall · Guest

hcobb <henry.cobb@gmail.com> wrote:

:On Nov 24, 8:57 am, Fred J. McCall <fjmcc...@gmail.com> wrote:
:> richardcas...@earthlink.net (Richard Casady) wrote:
:> :On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 22:13:28 -0700, Fred J. McCall:<fjmcc...@gmail.com> wrote:
:> :>You need time to start the helo and get it airborne. Even if the crew
:> :>is kept ready 24/7 this is going to take at least 5 minutes. That
:> :>reduces your time by a third.
:> :
:> :Why so long? Turn the key and go. Turbine engines don>t need to be
:> :warmed up.
:> :
:>
:> Since when? You have to run them up to speed and get them stable.
:> Then you have to get off the deck, maneuver, and get up to speed on
:> vector.
:>
:> Ready Five is about as fast as it gets.
:
:Plus are you going to have your flight crew strapped in to their seats
:for four hours while the ship bounces on the waves waiting for the
:call?
:
:And the helicopter could be busy with other missions at the time.
:
:So it>s much better to use a combination of UAVs and helicopters, like
:USS Freedom.
:

Yeah, sure. Now all you need is a spare $100 billion or so so that
you can buy enough of them to actually do the job...

--
"Some people get lost in thought because it>s such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn

Paul J. Adam · Guest

In message <4952b1fc.598819578@news.east.earthlink.net>, Richard Casady
<richardcasady@earthlink.net> writes
[quote]Why so long? Turn the key and go. Turbine engines don>t need to be
warmed up.
[/quote]
Navigation and mission systems need programming, crews need briefing,
the ship>s got to get onto flying course and speed, and you need to get
the tiedown chains off. It adds up.

Also, there>s a limit to how long you can keep the crew strapped into
their seats for. The alert states for aircraft, and how long you can
hold at each for (and how long you need to stand down afterwards from
each even if you don>t fly) are well defined in the RN; while it might
be easy to groan "lazy aviators" at the rules for resting them and their
airframe, there>s nothing like a two-hour (each way) overwater flight up
and back the Persian Gulf to make you appreciate the efforts that (a)
the flight crew are putting in, to fly you safely from one grey speck in
the water to another grey speck in the water and (b) the quiet labour of
the maintenance crew who continually defy the Lynx Mark 8>s determined
efforts to shake itself into spare parts.

[quote]
Casady
[/quote]
--
The nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its
warriors, will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done
by fools.
-Thucydides

paul<dot>j<dot>adam[at]googlemail{dot}.com

damarkley · Guest

Andrew Swallow wrote:
[quote]deemsbill@aol.com wrote:
On Nov 23, 12:51 am, Andrew Swallow <am.swal...@btinternet.com> wrote:
deemsb...@aol.com wrote:
On Nov 22, 11:11 pm, Andrew Swallow <am.swal...@btinternet.com> wrote:
deemsb...@aol.com wrote:
On Nov 22, 2:23 pm, "William Black" <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk
wrote:
deemsb...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:49ae014e-8c2c-4a6f-893e-9d5dc3d8e0b4@3g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...

:
Because they have to take the ship somewhere to get to someplace
shallow enough to anchor?
Of course, there>s also a problem with disabling the engines,
which is
that the ship is now adrift without power and probably not quickly
repairable. Not something you generally want to have happen to you.
--
Not to mention a dozen or so really pissed-off guys armed
with AKs.
------------
AKs you can live with.
Reports seem to indicate that they>ve got something like the RPG-29
--
William Black
I think AKs would be more useful for the "slaughter the crew"
party.
If they kill the crew then the special forces either kill the pirates
or hand them over to a country with the death penalty. Similar rules
to people taking hostages on land.
Andrew Swallow-
Which doesn>t help the dead crew in the least. You seem to
think these pirates are rational and disciplined. Do you really think
they>ll board a ship and then say "Good for you! You disabled the
engines. Since we can>t get it to port, I guess we>ll just leave. Have
a nice day!"?
They will not do it again and their friends will hear what happened.

Andrew Swallow

I>m sure the crew and their families will be thrilled. Besides,
do you think they>ll just sit on the ship and wait to be killed? They
will still have their boats and have a shot at getting away.

Something is stopping every coastal village in Britain from being a
pirate>s den.

Andrew Swallow
That something is a thing called rule of law.[/quote]
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

hcobb · Guest

Fred J. McCall wrote:
[quote]hcobb <henry.cobb@gmail.com> wrote:
:So it>s much better to use a combination of UAVs and helicopters, like
:USS Freedom.

Yeah, sure. Now all you need is a spare $100 billion or so so that
you can buy enough of them to actually do the job...
[/quote]
Even if the price doesn>t go down the entire LCS buy with all the
knick knacks won>t amount to half of that.

-HJC


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