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Steven Bornfeld · Guest

Simplicio wrote:
[quote]On Nov 9, 9:25 am, "dane4...@gmail.com" <dane4...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 29, 6:48 pm, soothsayer <soothsa...@yomamma.org> wrote:

peterG <pet...@nothotmail.com> wrote innews:ge8cqa$6ak$1@news.albasani.net:
Like I said, I>d appreciate any replies that attempt to ANSWER MY
QUESTION. Thanks (maybe their afraid of the competition?)

"nowadays, they are mostly a bunch of
greedy little whores who have no interest in helping anyone unless it
enlarges their pocketbooks. "

These statements are so out of line. I am about to graduate dental
school with 250k in DEBT. That means I am starting with a HUGE
deficit. Lets compare that to a 4 year degree like the average
accountant. They starts their job with no debt. 4 years of school,
and make 50-70k a year. I>ll make slightly more than that, but with
loans my adjusted income will be nil. If you want dentists to stop
being "greedy" maybe the US government should start subsidizing dental
education

This actually supports the poster>s assumption. You have said that
dentists are justified in "being greedy" because
they graduate school in much more debt, "unless the US government
starts subsidizing them."

Should dentists be added to the list of "greedy" industries seeking
bailouts? car manufacturers , farmers, wall street?

Personally I have no sympathy for these kinds of arguments. For one
thing, these days many people out of
high school cannot even afford college and go into debt to get a
degree. Secondly you could easily calculate the amount of debt you
would be in before you went to dental school. At that time you had a
regular degree and could have opted for the accounting job. Dental
schools require a BS degree, correct? Therefore you went to dental
school because for one thing you thought it would be a good long term
financial deal which would be in your best interests and opted out of
the accounting job.

[/quote]

Of course when choosing between dentistry and accountancy, money would
be the only consideration, right?
Dentistry is expensive to provide, and only getting more so. There is
no reason to assume that more greedy people go into dentistry than any
other profession. If you feel that dentistry in particular (and
medicine in general) has priced itself out of availability, you should
work for the political change that may accomplish a decrease in expenses.
Please note the possibility of unintended consequences--the more the
public wishes to control the system and limit cost, the more limited the
options for care will be. In the end, the profession will be no better
than the public wishes it to be.

Steve

dane4695@gmail.com · Guest

On Nov 9, 2:57 pm, Simplicio <clint...@prodigy.net> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 9, 9:25 am, "dane4...@gmail.com" <dane4...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Oct 29, 6:48 pm, soothsayer <soothsa...@yomamma.org> wrote:

peterG <pet...@nothotmail.com> wrote innews:ge8cqa$6ak$1@news.albasani.net:

Like I said, I>d appreciate any replies that attempt to ANSWER MY
QUESTION. Thanks (maybe their afraid of the competition?)

"nowadays, they are mostly a bunch of
greedy little whores who have no interest in helping anyone unless it
enlarges their pocketbooks. "

These statements are so out of line. I am about to graduate dental
school with 250k in DEBT. That means I am starting with a HUGE
deficit. Lets compare that to a 4 year degree like the average
accountant. They starts their job with no debt. 4 years of school,
and make 50-70k a year. I>ll make slightly more than that, but with
loans my adjusted income will be nil. If you want dentists to stop
being "greedy" maybe the US government should start subsidizing dental
education

This actually supports the poster>s assumption. You have said that
dentists are justified in "being greedy" because
they graduate school in much more debt, "unless the US government
starts subsidizing them."

Should dentists be added to the list of "greedy" industries seeking
bailouts? car manufacturers , farmers, wall street?

Personally I have no sympathy for these kinds of arguments. For one
thing, these days many people out of
high school cannot even afford college and go into debt to get a
degree. Secondly you could easily calculate the amount of debt you
would be in before you went to dental school. At that time you had a
regular degree and could have opted for the accounting job. Dental
schools require a BS degree, correct? Therefore you went to dental
school because for one thing you thought it would be a good long term
financial deal which would be in your best interests and opted out of
the accounting job.
[/quote]
Good luck finding yourself a dentist :) That>s all I>m going to say.

Mark & Steven Bornfeld · Guest

mradu@dentalart.com wrote:
[quote]
The best way to judge the quality of a dentist is by his/her
thoroughness of the examination. A complete exam is not done to find
more work to do, but is a duty of the dentist, on one hand, and
something owed to the patient, on the other.
A good exam covers cancer screening, soft tissues, gums, muscles,
joints, bite, teeth, old restorations, and aesthetic concerns. It
includes photographs and radiographs, sometime even study models. A
good exam is followed by a consultation, with time taken to go over
with the patients over their concerns, questions, and bring up finding
uncovered during the exam. An explanation of the problems found, the
consequences of no treatment, the risk and benefits of treatment, and
costs involved.
The critical point is found at the end of this consultation
appointment; if the dentist gives the patient options, phases of the
treatment, and allows for patient input in the decision and speed of
the treatment process, chances are the dentist is not only good, but
also honest! If the dentist is pushing for fast decisions, scares with
dire consequences if not treated, wants to start right now... the best
interest of the patient is not coming first!

Michael
[/quote]

Don>t forget a detailed (and regularly updated) medical history.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Simplicio · Guest

[quote] Of course when choosing between dentistry and accountancy, money would
be the only consideration, right?
[/quote]
If you are responding to me, that answer is that all professions have
to make decisions based on economics. Consider a doctor who wants to
practice a certain speciality or open an office in a certain area but
can>t afford to. Dentistry is not special in that sense, therefore a
dental student has to make, and live with the same economic decisions
and consequences that any other student or profession does, which
often includes debt. Your comment suggest that you
agree with the dental student , that the costs of education and
dentistry are too expensive, and that this "justifies" adjustment to
the quailty of care, even though you did not explicitly say so.

[quote] Dentistry is expensive to provide, and only getting more so. There is
no reason to assume that more greedy people go into dentistry than any
other profession.
[/quote]
The first poster felt that dentists are "greedy". Obviously every
profession has a wide spectrum of practice. But interestingly, your
comments, while putting the burden on patients to "seek political
change", do not, in fact, deny the first poster>s premise. You say
denistry is expensive to provide...but...., there is no reason to
assume that greedy people go into dentistry. Perhaps not. Obviously
many students in all professions begin with noble intentions.... ,
but if conditions such as large school debt and the expense of
providing dentistry, force overcharging and poorer quality of care,
what is the difference? No one is forcing this student to go into
dentistry instead of taking the accounting job and I see no evidence
that the student is trying to change the system for the better. So all
I am saying is, take full responsability for whatever your actions are
when and if you do actually go into dentistry.

Simplicio · Guest

[quote]
Your comment suggest that you
agree with the dental student , that the costs of education and
dentistry are too expensive, and that this "justifies" adjustment to
the quailty of care, even though you did not explicitly say so.

Absolutely not. It means that high dental fees do not NECESSARILY
imply greed, avarice, etc. There was a fellow here a few months back
that thought he knew it all about what it must cost to run a dental
practice
[/quote]
Remember, I did not say that I personally think dentists are greedy,
only that the dental students' comments
didn>t support his point. I really don>t know what the actual costs
are for running a practice, so I don>t know how
to judge. Logically your comment does not necessarily imply price
fixing or lowering the quality of care because of office expenses or
high school debt, necessarily of course, but is just the way you
responded.

[quote]magnitude higher than they ought to be for the dentist to make a
reasonable living. No matter how many of us responded that the average
dental office functioned at an overhead of perhaps 70-80% of gross
receipts, he would not be convinced.

No matter. Anyone may believe what they wish. Most people will want
the best care available (assuming we can even agree on what that would
be). If dentistry becomes socialized, then decisions will have to be
made about what treatment is "acceptable". IOW, there is ALWAYS some
kind of restriction or rationing of services in a socialized system.
[/quote]
I wouldn>t support socialization and I didn>t say I did, but what
would concern patients is a dentist who figures, it>s difficult to
make a profit with overhead costs, I>m $300K in debt, I>m going to cut
costs/quality because I went to dental school with good intentions,
the government didn>t bail me out and I deserve to make a good living.
In my case I learnt from court cases that I was dealing with an
independent contractor and the dentist he worked for took 50% of the
reciepts. He represented himself as an independent dentist sharing
office facilities. Someone in this situation with school debt, (I am
assume Georgetown dental school was not cheap) and a 50% cut>s from
the boss etc could easily justify cutting corners while feeling
"justified". The dental student seemed to be saying, "unless dental
school is subsidized don>t be so surprised if dentists are "greedy""

Mark & Steven Bornfeld · Guest

Simplicio wrote:
[quote]

Of course when choosing between dentistry and accountancy, money would
be the only consideration, right?

If you are responding to me, that answer is that all professions have
to make decisions based on economics. Consider a doctor who wants to
practice a certain speciality or open an office in a certain area but
can>t afford to. Dentistry is not special in that sense, therefore a
dental student has to make, and live with the same economic decisions
and consequences that any other student or profession does, which
often includes debt. Your comment suggest that you
agree with the dental student , that the costs of education and
dentistry are too expensive, and that this "justifies" adjustment to
the quailty of care, even though you did not explicitly say so.
[/quote]

Absolutely not. It means that high dental fees do not NECESSARILY
imply greed, avarice, etc. There was a fellow here a few months back
that thought he knew it all about what it must cost to run a dental
practice, and seemed to think that dental fees were several orders of
magnitude higher than they ought to be for the dentist to make a
reasonable living. No matter how many of us responded that the average
dental office functioned at an overhead of perhaps 70-80% of gross
receipts, he would not be convinced.
No matter. Anyone may believe what they wish. Most people will want
the best care available (assuming we can even agree on what that would
be). If dentistry becomes socialized, then decisions will have to be
made about what treatment is "acceptable". IOW, there is ALWAYS some
kind of restriction or rationing of services in a socialized system. If
the population values these services enough, they will pay for them. If
not, they won>t. Dentistry will be a ways down the totem pole if and
when we head in that direction, so I can>t expect rapid change here.

[quote]
Dentistry is expensive to provide, and only getting more so. There is
no reason to assume that more greedy people go into dentistry than any
other profession.

The first poster felt that dentists are "greedy". Obviously every
profession has a wide spectrum of practice. But interestingly, your
comments, while putting the burden on patients to "seek political
change", do not, in fact, deny the first poster>s premise. You say
denistry is expensive to provide...but...., there is no reason to
assume that greedy people go into dentistry. Perhaps not. Obviously
many students in all professions begin with noble intentions.... ,
but if conditions such as large school debt and the expense of
providing dentistry, force overcharging and poorer quality of care,
what is the difference? No one is forcing this student to go into
dentistry instead of taking the accounting job and I see no evidence
that the student is trying to change the system for the better. So all
I am saying is, take full responsability for whatever your actions are
when and if you do actually go into dentistry.
[/quote]

There is a difference between greed and economic need. There is very
little collusion in setting dental fees at the provider end. In some
towns esp. company towns, you may feel that there is a de facto price
controls set by dominant insurance companies. There have been lawsuits
in the past against dental societies brought by the FTC whenever there
is as much as a whiff of collusion at the dental end (I>m sure these
suits were instigated by the insurance companies).
Yes, no one is "forced" into dentistry, and dentists are of course
responsible for their actions. That means in a free market system that
if you think the dentist has set his fees too high you are free to seek
out either less care or a cheaper dentist. I>m sure it is tempting to
think that dentists should do something to lower dental fees throughout
the profession, but that isn>t going to happen.
There are programs to provide dental services to the
indigent--unreimbursed care. Administratively and legally it>s a
headache, so it>s only starting. And no one is arguing that high fees
do not limit access. But dentistry is expensive to perform, the
barriers to entry are high. Venting at dentists for being greedy may be
satisfying on one level, but it doesn>t do what is needed (and is needed
for medical care in general) which is granting access to care to more
people who need it and do not have it.

Steve

[quote]
[/quote]

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Dartos · Guest

Simplicio wrote:
Obviously
[quote]many students in all professions begin with noble intentions.... ,
but if conditions such as large school debt and the expense of
providing dentistry, force overcharging and poorer quality of care,
what is the difference? No one is forcing this student to go into
dentistry instead of taking the accounting job and I see no evidence
that the student is trying to change the system for the better. So all
I am saying is, take full responsability for whatever your actions are
when and if you do actually go into dentistry.
[/quote]
I don>t know how to say this without being slightly offensive, but this
is the most logical statement that I>ve ever seen you post <G>.

I think some in dentistry have lost the strength of character to treat
the patient for the patient>s wellfare, and instead treat the patient
for the dentist>s benefit.

I>m not saying the dentists in smd are perfect, but as a group, they
haven>t lost sight of what a dentist should be. Lots of other dentists
throughout the world are the same, but it is easy to slip over to the
'dark side'.

JMO,
D

Mark & Steven Bornfeld · Guest

Simplicio wrote:
[quote]Your comment suggest that you
agree with the dental student , that the costs of education and
dentistry are too expensive, and that this "justifies" adjustment to
the quailty of care, even though you did not explicitly say so.
Absolutely not. It means that high dental fees do not NECESSARILY
imply greed, avarice, etc. There was a fellow here a few months back
that thought he knew it all about what it must cost to run a dental
practice

Remember, I did not say that I personally think dentists are greedy,
only that the dental students' comments
didn>t support his point. I really don>t know what the actual costs
are for running a practice, so I don>t know how
to judge. Logically your comment does not necessarily imply price
fixing or lowering the quality of care because of office expenses or
high school debt, necessarily of course, but is just the way you
responded.

magnitude higher than they ought to be for the dentist to make a
reasonable living. No matter how many of us responded that the average
dental office functioned at an overhead of perhaps 70-80% of gross
receipts, he would not be convinced.

No matter. Anyone may believe what they wish. Most people will want
the best care available (assuming we can even agree on what that would
be). If dentistry becomes socialized, then decisions will have to be
made about what treatment is "acceptable". IOW, there is ALWAYS some
kind of restriction or rationing of services in a socialized system.

I wouldn>t support socialization and I didn>t say I did, but what
would concern patients is a dentist who figures, it>s difficult to
make a profit with overhead costs, I>m $300K in debt, I>m going to cut
costs/quality because I went to dental school with good intentions,
the government didn>t bail me out and I deserve to make a good living.
In my case I learnt from court cases that I was dealing with an
independent contractor and the dentist he worked for took 50% of the
reciepts. He represented himself as an independent dentist sharing
office facilities. Someone in this situation with school debt, (I am
assume Georgetown dental school was not cheap) and a 50% cut>s from
the boss etc could easily justify cutting corners while feeling
"justified". The dental student seemed to be saying, "unless dental
school is subsidized don>t be so surprised if dentists are "greedy""
[/quote]

That is of course a real risk (as Dartos alluded to).

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

georgepds · Guest

On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 21:04:46 +0000 (UTC), peterG
<peterG@nothotmail.com> wrote:

[quote]I am going to be retiring to Mexico.
I can no longer afford to live in USA on my pension.

Can anyone give me any tips advice on what I should
look for when I visit a dentist>s office...
[/quote]

I don>t know any tips on finding a good dentist, but I know they exist
in Mexico. My wife>s folks ( he>s a native spanish speaker) went down
for yeasrs for extensive work ( multiple crowns) , all done without
problems .

Good luck in your search

Brian · Guest

On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 17:23:20 -0500, georgepds <g@abc.com> wrote:

[quote]I don>t know any tips on finding a good dentist, but I know they exist
in Mexico. My wife>s folks ( he>s a native spanish speaker) went down
for yeasrs for extensive work ( multiple crowns) , all done without
problems .

Good luck in your search

[/quote]
If there were any problems in the U.S., what would you do?


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