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Joachim Pense
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 Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:20 am Post subject: Re: How is Hoooo pronounced? |
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ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com (in sci.lang):
[quote]On Oct 17, 6:17 am, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
On Oct 17, 9:03 am, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
LEXICAL QUANTITY IN JAPANESE AND FINNISH
Toshiko Isei-Jaakkola
In Japanese a vowel sequence with a maximum of four vowel phonemes is
possible as
listed in the above section. Since the Japanese aoi does not have a
morphological
boundary, there may be triphthongs in Japanese. A sequence of four
identical vowels is
exemplified as follows:
Toooo /to|o.o|o/ (‘Eastern Europe’)
Hoooo /ho|o.o|o/ (‘Pope’).
What do the vertical bars and the dots mean?
Normally, a dot means syllable boundary. Isn>t the notation explained
in the article?
Not explained. According to this, it is ho-oh.
http://www.pokemasters.net/forums/archive/index.php?t-12949.html
Ho-oh is a good example. One standard romanization system would result
in it being written Hoooo...
[/quote]
How>s it spelled in Kana?
Joachim |
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ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:30 am Post subject: Re: How is Hoooo pronounced? |
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On Oct 17, 6:03 pm, Bart Mathias <math...@hawaii.edu> wrote:
[quote]ranjit_math...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Oct 17, 2:30 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
On Oct 18, 9:20 am, Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
[...]
How>s it spelled in Kana?
Joachim
It>s written with two kanji ("law king"), and I think would have to be
ho u o u> in kana, since
o u>. = /o:/.
Is there an <o o> too?
A few words are spelled that way. There>s the <oo> of /o:kii/ 'large'
and /ooi/ 'numerous' (with /o:/ an obvious morpheme historically, if not
also synchronically), the <ko o> of /ko:r-/ 'freeze,' the <to o> of the
'pass through/along' verbs and nouns in /to:r-/, <to o> of /too/ 'ten,'
and a couple more that don>t come immediately to this sorry old mind.
The last is historically *[towo], the others *[Copo]; all and only such
words are <(C)o o> in modern writing. The others have a variety of
histories, but virtually all involve an earlier /...u/ in the second mora.
[/quote]
Do Japanese find [toWkjoW] an incorrect pronunciation when an Anglo
with an [oW] diphthong pronounces <Tokyo> that way?
> Bart Mathias |
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ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:44 am Post subject: Re: How is Hoooo pronounced? |
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On Oct 17, 6:03 pm, Bart Mathias <math...@hawaii.edu> wrote:
[quote]ranjit_math...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Oct 17, 2:30 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
On Oct 18, 9:20 am, Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
[...]
How>s it spelled in Kana?
Joachim
It>s written with two kanji ("law king"), and I think would have to be
ho u o u> in kana, since
o u>. = /o:/.
Is there an <o o> too?
A few words are spelled that way. There>s the <oo> of /o:kii/ 'large'
and /ooi/ 'numerous' (with /o:/ an obvious morpheme historically, if not
also synchronically), the <ko o> of /ko:r-/ 'freeze,' the <to o> of the
'pass through/along' verbs and nouns in /to:r-/, <to o> of /too/ 'ten,'
and a couple more that don>t come immediately to this sorry old mind.
The last is historically *[towo], the others *[Copo]; all and only such
words are <(C)o o> in modern writing. The others have a variety of
histories, but virtually all involve an earlier /...u/ in the second mora.
Bart Mathias
[/quote]
Do you know how to reverse lookup an English word (say "internet") in
Jim Breen>s WWWJDIC? I can>t seem to figure out how to do it.
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?1C |
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Bart Mathias
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:03 am Post subject: Re: How is Hoooo pronounced? |
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ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com wrote:
[quote]On Oct 17, 2:30 pm, "benli...@ihug.co.nz" <benli...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
On Oct 18, 9:20 am, Joachim Pense <s...@pense-mainz.eu> wrote:
[...]
How>s it spelled in Kana?
Joachim
It>s written with two kanji ("law king"), and I think would have to be
ho u o u> in kana, since
o u>. = /o:/.
Is there an <o o> too?
[/quote]
A few words are spelled that way. There>s the <oo> of /o:kii/ 'large'
and /ooi/ 'numerous' (with /o:/ an obvious morpheme historically, if not
also synchronically), the <ko o> of /ko:r-/ 'freeze,' the <to o> of the
'pass through/along' verbs and nouns in /to:r-/, <to o> of /too/ 'ten,'
and a couple more that don>t come immediately to this sorry old mind.
The last is historically *[towo], the others *[Copo]; all and only such
words are <(C)o o> in modern writing. The others have a variety of
histories, but virtually all involve an earlier /...u/ in the second mora.
Bart Mathias |
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Bart Mathias
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:23 am Post subject: Re: How is Hoooo pronounced? |
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ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com wrote:
[quote]LEXICAL QUANTITY IN JAPANESE AND FINNISH
Toshiko Isei-Jaakkola
In Japanese a vowel sequence with a maximum of four vowel phonemes is
possible as
listed in the above section. Since the Japanese aoi does not have a
morphological
boundary, there may be triphthongs in Japanese. A sequence of four
identical vowels is
exemplified as follows:
Toooo /to|o.o|o/ (‘Eastern Europe’)
Hoooo /ho|o.o|o/ (‘Pope’).
[...]
[/quote]
By the way, it>s Japanese /aoi/ = 'hollyhock' that doesn>t have a
morpheme boundary. /ao-i/ 'blue' has one.
I don>t quite get the "maximum" here. Even if 'four vowel phonemes' is
to be interpreted 'four identical vowel phonemes,' both of the examples
can be followed by the particle (I argue that it is a suffix) -o,
marking "accusative case." One *can* argue that it doesn>t count because
it>s not part of the word (some people make particles out to be
"clitics"), but it can>t be argued on phonological grounds.
(Then there is the famous sentence, [o:o:o:] (with a pitch drop after
the first [o], a rise after the second, and another drop after the
third), 'Let>s cover the tail.' 尾を覆おう (the <o o> of the last word,
<o o o u> is one of those <(C)o o> words I couldn>t think of in another
post in this thread. Here we have three <o>s in a row!).
Bart Mathias |
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Bart Mathias
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:37 am Post subject: Re: How is Hoooo pronounced? |
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analyst41@hotmail.com wrote:
[quote]On Oct 17, 10:32 am, analys...@hotmail.com wrote:
On Oct 17, 9:03 am, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
LEXICAL QUANTITY IN JAPANESE AND FINNISH
Toshiko Isei-Jaakkola
In Japanese a vowel sequence with a maximum of four vowel phonemes is
possible as
listed in the above section. Since the Japanese aoi does not have a
morphological
boundary, there may be triphthongs in Japanese. A sequence of four
identical vowels is
exemplified as follows:
Toooo /to|o.o|o/ (Eastern Europe)
Hoooo /ho|o.o|o/ (Pope).
What do the vertical bars and the dots mean?
This unbelievable (but apparently true).
Europe = youroppa, yo-roppa
East = azuma, touzainanboku, higashi, roppou, i-suto
[/quote]
<to u za i na N bo ku> [to:zainamboku] approximately, except [u] is
unround, is "east west south (and) north." 'Azuma' referred to the
eastern part of Japan and is sometimes written with the same character
as <to u> (from Chinese 'tong' = "east") but only meant "the East" in
that special sense. 'Roppou' is 'touzainanboku' + "heaven" and "earth,"
the "six directions."
[quote]How could they possibly get toooo by putting them together? and its
not as if they have had centuries and centuries of lenition to produce
this amazing word.
at least in the case of 'Pope' there is some idea how pretty much all
the consonants got lost.
houou, kyoukou, kyouou
[/quote]
houou < *[papwaN] Chinese for "King of Law." kyoukou < something like
*[keuhwang]. Take the phonetics as loose, but not too loose, approximations.
Bart Mathias |
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Bart Mathias
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: How is Hoooo pronounced? |
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ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com wrote:
[quote][...]
Do Japanese find [toWkjoW] an incorrect pronunciation when an Anglo
with an [oW] diphthong pronounces <Tokyo> that way?
[/quote]
They would, if the person saying it was otherwise speaking Japanese. If
it was in an English context, the reception would presumably be about
the same as for someone talking about, say, Cuba as ['kju:b@] would
arouse in a Spanish-speaking person with whom one is speaking in English.
Most English speakers who can>t manage an [o:] without turning it into
[ow] would say ['towkijo(w)] in three syllables.
Bart Mathias |
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Bart Mathias
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: How is Hoooo pronounced? |
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ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com wrote:
[quote][...]
Do you know how to reverse lookup an English word (say "internet") in
Jim Breen>s WWWJDIC? I can>t seem to figure out how to do it.
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?1C
[/quote]
I realize I>m not the only "you" in this group, but I don>t.
I took a look at the site you address above, and saw nothing about
reverse lookup. Unless, instead of a reverse dictionary, you mean to
find out the Japanese for, say, 'internet.' Then, as hinted at in the
User Guide, you can only get entries that contain the word "internet" in
the gloss for Japanese words. |
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ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:20 pm Post subject: Re: How is Hoooo pronounced? |
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On Oct 18, 3:05 am, Bart Mathias <math...@hawaii.edu> wrote:
[quote]ranjit_math...@yahoo.com wrote:
[...]
Do Japanese find [toWkjoW] an incorrect pronunciation when an Anglo
with an [oW] diphthong pronounces <Tokyo> that way?
They would, if the person saying it was otherwise speaking Japanese. If
it was in an English context, the reception would presumably be about
the same as for someone talking about, say, Cuba as ['kju:b@] would
arouse in a Spanish-speaking person with whom one is speaking in English.
Most English speakers who can>t manage an [o:] without turning it into
[ow] would say ['towkijo(w)] in three syllables.
[/quote]
"My woman from Tokiyo" - Deep Purple |
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ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:23 pm Post subject: Re: How is Hoooo pronounced? |
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On Oct 18, 3:21 am, Bart Mathias <math...@hawaii.edu> wrote:
[quote]ranjit_math...@yahoo.com wrote:
[...]
Do you know how to reverse lookup an English word (say "internet") in
Jim Breen>s WWWJDIC? I can>t seem to figure out how to do it.
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?1C
I realize I>m not the only "you" in this group, but I don>t.
I took a look at the site you address above, and saw nothing about
reverse lookup. Unless, instead of a reverse dictionary, you mean to
find out the Japanese for, say, 'internet.' Then, as hinted at in the
User Guide, you can only get entries that contain the word "internet" in
the gloss for Japanese words.
[/quote]
Very well; have you figured out how to find all the entries with the
word "internet"? I haven>t figured out even that even though what
people have written about WWWJDIC seems to indicate that this is
possible. |
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ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:24 pm Post subject: Re: How is Hoooo pronounced? |
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On Oct 18, 2:23 pm, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
<ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 18, 3:21 am, Bart Mathias <math...@hawaii.edu> wrote:
ranjit_math...@yahoo.com wrote:
[...]
Do you know how to reverse lookup an English word (say "internet") in
Jim Breen>s WWWJDIC? I can>t seem to figure out how to do it.
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?1C
I realize I>m not the only "you" in this group, but I don>t.
I took a look at the site you address above, and saw nothing about
reverse lookup. Unless, instead of a reverse dictionary, you mean to
find out the Japanese for, say, 'internet.' Then, as hinted at in the
User Guide, you can only get entries that contain the word "internet" in
the gloss for Japanese words.
Very well; have you figured out how to find all the entries with the
word "internet"? I haven>t figured out even that even though what
people have written about WWWJDIC seems to indicate that this is
possible.
[/quote]
Never mind. I neglected to notice that you mentioned the existence of
a User guide; I>ll look for the Guide and read it. |
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