Science and Technology news... :: View topic - Grid-Battery "Hybrid" Tractors

Bret Cahill · Guest

Supposedly if the tank is connected to the vehicle>s engine, it>s
technically legal to bring 8 pesos/litre [$3/gallon] fuel across the
border from Mexico. If the tank isn>t connected, customs wil seize
the diesel and maybe even the vehicle. Even if it is connected,
customs may give you a hard time. Supposedly a driver can earn $100 a
trip running diesel in border areas but each border crossing takes an
hour or so . . .

It>s a whole lot more cost effective to just electrify the #@!%&*!
tractors and fields.

A 1/2 mile long wire 10 - 20 feet above the ground only needs to be
on one end of a quarter square. A fast discharge battery can be
relatively small as the tractor only needs to go one mile for the
round trip back to the wire. An on board ICE or battery trailer could
be used to relocate the tractor any distance.

As agriculture become more automated there won>t be any reason for
anyone to be in the tractor so no one will get bored as the tractor
lingers for a minute or so charging up at the wire.

If someone wants to ride in the tractor he can bring other work to do
during recharge.

Bret Cahill

Bret Cahill · Guest

[quote]I think this could also be accomplished by stringing a grid of wires over
the field, and using a trolley that rides on the wires.
[/quote]
That>s certainly possible -- the "trolly tractor" was last summer>s
idea -- but requires a lot of wire. It>s actually cheaper to use a
battery.

[quote]It>s not as simple
as a locomotive or streetcar, where a single hot wire can bu used, and the
return current through the tracks. But I think a system could be devised to
provide electricity to a tractor by means of a controlled tether. It could
definitely be done with a set of tracks that would move the supply line to
be in-line with the movement of the tractor, and then have a trolley with a
power cord that supplies the tractor. It would involve some engineering,
initial investment, and maintenance, but should be about 95% efficient for
energy conversion.
[/quote]
Another option is to eliminate the tractor altogether and drag the
plow and other impliments off of a "super pivot," the common "crop
circle" irrigation structure beefed up for the heavier load.

The impliments would move inward for a spiral furrow.

Bret Cahill

John Larkin · Guest

On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:08:42 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

[quote]Supposedly if the tank is connected to the vehicle>s engine, it>s
technically legal to bring 8 pesos/litre [$3/gallon] fuel across the
border from Mexico. If the tank isn>t connected, customs wil seize
the diesel and maybe even the vehicle. Even if it is connected,
customs may give you a hard time. Supposedly a driver can earn $100 a
trip running diesel in border areas but each border crossing takes an
hour or so . . .

It>s a whole lot more cost effective to just electrify the #@!%&*!
tractors and fields.

A 1/2 mile long wire 10 - 20 feet above the ground only needs to be
on one end of a quarter square. A fast discharge battery can be
relatively small as the tractor only needs to go one mile for the
round trip back to the wire. An on board ICE or battery trailer could
be used to relocate the tractor any distance.

As agriculture become more automated there won>t be any reason for
anyone to be in the tractor so no one will get bored as the tractor
lingers for a minute or so charging up at the wire.
[/quote]
What sort of battery charges in a minute or two? And where would all
that power come from, in the middle of a corn field?

Do the math: say, 50 horsepower-hours:

How much power to recharge in two minutes?

What would the voltage have to be to keep the
wire losses reasonable?

How much do the batteries weigh?

How much do the batteries cost?

Ideas are cheap, as long as you ignore reality.

John

Bret Cahill · Guest

[quote]Supposedly if the tank is connected to the vehicle>s engine, it>s
technically legal to bring 8 pesos/litre [$3/gallon] fuel across the
border from Mexico. �If the tank isn>t connected, customs wil seize
the diesel and maybe even the vehicle. �Even if it is connected,
customs may give you a hard time. �Supposedly a driver can earn $100 a
trip running diesel in border areas but each border crossing takes an
hour or so . . .

It>s a whole lot more cost effective to just electrify the #@!%&*!
tractors and fields.

A 1/2 mile long wire 10 �- 20 feet above the ground only needs to be
on one end of a quarter square. �A fast discharge battery can be
relatively small as the tractor only needs to go one mile for the
round trip back to the wire. �An on board ICE or battery trailer could
be used to relocate the tractor any distance.

As agriculture become more automated there won>t be any reason for
anyone to be in the tractor so no one will get bored as the tractor
lingers for a minute or so charging up at the wire.

What sort of battery charges in a minute or two?
[/quote]
One with lots of small cells. The smaller the cells, the faster the
charging time.

[quote]And where would all
that power come from, in the middle of a corn field?
[/quote]
The grid: Coal fired plants, nukes, PV, dish Stirling, geo thermal,
wind . . . whatever they got that will put out some juice. Polar
bears, tropical frogs and hurricanes are not the issue.

[quote]Do the math: say, 50 horsepower-hours:
[/quote]
Plug in hybrids can go 40 miles between charges. A tractor may
require 20X higher hp than a Volt but a tractor only needs to go 1
mile between charges.

[quote]�How much power to recharge in two minutes?
[/quote]
If a 400 hp articulated tractor moves 10 mph it>s only running 6
minutes between charges and will require 3X 400 hp or ~ 1 MW -- 1/6th
the juice drawn by an electric locomotive.

In 4 years diesel will be $15 / gallon and electrification will amount
to hundreds of dollars/hour in savings, much more money than necessary
to hire someone willing to sit at the end of the field for a few
minutes reading a magazine charging up between furrows.

[quote]�What would the voltage have to be to keep the
�wire losses reasonable?
[/quote]
It>s only a half mile so a fat high current low voltage wire might be
desirable for safety reasons.

[quote]�How much do the batteries weigh?
[/quote]
Regardless of the size, from the articulated tractor sucking down 22
gallons of diesel/hour [$110/hr and spiraling] to a 15 hp garden
tractor, the battery + electric motor system will always have a higher
specific power than any IC engine + fuel tank system.

The reason is a tractor just doesn>t need to go very far to work a
field.

[quote]�How much do the batteries cost?
[/quote]
Same as the batteries in plug in hybrids which require an even larger
battery / hp.

[quote]Ideas are cheap, as long as you ignore reality.
[/quote]
In as little as 8 years a lot of the big wells will give out rather
quickly leaving the world with 2/3rds of current production according
to a recent _London Times_ interview with a former BushCo aid. On top
of that China seems to have a permanent double digit growth rate
while, according to Soros, the U. S. will be in a decades long
recession so the size of China>s economy will surpass America>s in as
little as 6 years. This will leave the great majority of Americans to
try to get by on a couple percent of the oil we consume today.

So here are 3 plausible scenarios:

1. electrify the fields & tractors, or,

2. return to plowing fields with oxen, or,

3. starve.

If you cannot come up with any ideas, cheap or otherwise, for a
plausible 4th scenario then I say we electrify the fields.

Bret Cahill

"Every idea is the product of a single mind."

-- Bishop Richard Cumberland

Paul E. Schoen · Guest

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
news:o3u6841m0gkfu88flpdgtsmdm3jfj6945e@4ax.com...
[quote]On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:08:42 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

Supposedly if the tank is connected to the vehicle>s engine, it>s
technically legal to bring 8 pesos/litre [$3/gallon] fuel across the
border from Mexico. If the tank isn>t connected, customs wil seize
the diesel and maybe even the vehicle. Even if it is connected,
customs may give you a hard time. Supposedly a driver can earn $100 a
trip running diesel in border areas but each border crossing takes an
hour or so . . .

It>s a whole lot more cost effective to just electrify the #@!%&*!
tractors and fields.

A 1/2 mile long wire 10 - 20 feet above the ground only needs to be
on one end of a quarter square. A fast discharge battery can be
relatively small as the tractor only needs to go one mile for the
round trip back to the wire. An on board ICE or battery trailer could
be used to relocate the tractor any distance.

As agriculture become more automated there won>t be any reason for
anyone to be in the tractor so no one will get bored as the tractor
lingers for a minute or so charging up at the wire.

What sort of battery charges in a minute or two? And where would all
that power come from, in the middle of a corn field?

Do the math: say, 50 horsepower-hours:

How much power to recharge in two minutes?

What would the voltage have to be to keep the
wire losses reasonable?

How much do the batteries weigh?

How much do the batteries cost?

Ideas are cheap, as long as you ignore reality.
[/quote]
I think this could also be accomplished by stringing a grid of wires over
the field, and using a trolley that rides on the wires. It>s not as simple
as a locomotive or streetcar, where a single hot wire can bu used, and the
return current through the tracks. But I think a system could be devised to
provide electricity to a tractor by means of a controlled tether. It could
definitely be done with a set of tracks that would move the supply line to
be in-line with the movement of the tractor, and then have a trolley with a
power cord that supplies the tractor. It would involve some engineering,
initial investment, and maintenance, but should be about 95% efficient for
energy conversion.

Paul

John Larkin · Guest

On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 16:13:02 -0400, "Paul E. Schoen"
<pstech@smart.net> wrote:

[quote]
"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
news:o3u6841m0gkfu88flpdgtsmdm3jfj6945e@4ax.com...
On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:08:42 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

Supposedly if the tank is connected to the vehicle>s engine, it>s
technically legal to bring 8 pesos/litre [$3/gallon] fuel across the
border from Mexico. If the tank isn>t connected, customs wil seize
the diesel and maybe even the vehicle. Even if it is connected,
customs may give you a hard time. Supposedly a driver can earn $100 a
trip running diesel in border areas but each border crossing takes an
hour or so . . .

It>s a whole lot more cost effective to just electrify the #@!%&*!
tractors and fields.

A 1/2 mile long wire 10 - 20 feet above the ground only needs to be
on one end of a quarter square. A fast discharge battery can be
relatively small as the tractor only needs to go one mile for the
round trip back to the wire. An on board ICE or battery trailer could
be used to relocate the tractor any distance.

As agriculture become more automated there won>t be any reason for
anyone to be in the tractor so no one will get bored as the tractor
lingers for a minute or so charging up at the wire.

What sort of battery charges in a minute or two? And where would all
that power come from, in the middle of a corn field?

Do the math: say, 50 horsepower-hours:

How much power to recharge in two minutes?

What would the voltage have to be to keep the
wire losses reasonable?

How much do the batteries weigh?

How much do the batteries cost?

Ideas are cheap, as long as you ignore reality.

I think this could also be accomplished by stringing a grid of wires over
the field, and using a trolley that rides on the wires. It>s not as simple
as a locomotive or streetcar, where a single hot wire can bu used, and the
return current through the tracks. But I think a system could be devised to
provide electricity to a tractor by means of a controlled tether. It could
definitely be done with a set of tracks that would move the supply line to
be in-line with the movement of the tractor, and then have a trolley with a
power cord that supplies the tractor. It would involve some engineering,
initial investment, and maintenance, but should be about 95% efficient for
energy conversion.

Paul

[/quote]
Even better, build a solid roof over the entire field, and sheath the
underside with conductive metal, like the bumper cars at the beach.

Or how about a tower, with a laser or microwave beam aiming power at a
collector array on the tractor?

Or hang a cable to the tractor from a tethered satellite with solar
cells.

Or go back to using oxen. That will revive the whip business, creating
many jobs.

Life is so much more exciting without math.

John

Paul E. Schoen · Guest

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
news:3r778457n4g6kepl2p37ve2quui2k39act@4ax.com...
[quote]On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 16:13:02 -0400, "Paul E. Schoen"
pstech@smart.net> wrote:

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in
message
news:o3u6841m0gkfu88flpdgtsmdm3jfj6945e@4ax.com...
On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 10:08:42 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

Supposedly if the tank is connected to the vehicle>s engine, it>s
technically legal to bring 8 pesos/litre [$3/gallon] fuel across the
border from Mexico. If the tank isn>t connected, customs wil seize
the diesel and maybe even the vehicle. Even if it is connected,
customs may give you a hard time. Supposedly a driver can earn $100 a
trip running diesel in border areas but each border crossing takes an
hour or so . . .

It>s a whole lot more cost effective to just electrify the #@!%&*!
tractors and fields.

A 1/2 mile long wire 10 - 20 feet above the ground only needs to be
on one end of a quarter square. A fast discharge battery can be
relatively small as the tractor only needs to go one mile for the
round trip back to the wire. An on board ICE or battery trailer could
be used to relocate the tractor any distance.

As agriculture become more automated there won>t be any reason for
anyone to be in the tractor so no one will get bored as the tractor
lingers for a minute or so charging up at the wire.

What sort of battery charges in a minute or two? And where would all
that power come from, in the middle of a corn field?

Do the math: say, 50 horsepower-hours:

How much power to recharge in two minutes?

What would the voltage have to be to keep the
wire losses reasonable?

How much do the batteries weigh?

How much do the batteries cost?

Ideas are cheap, as long as you ignore reality.

I think this could also be accomplished by stringing a grid of wires over
the field, and using a trolley that rides on the wires. It>s not as
simple
as a locomotive or streetcar, where a single hot wire can bu used, and
the
return current through the tracks. But I think a system could be devised
to
provide electricity to a tractor by means of a controlled tether. It
could
definitely be done with a set of tracks that would move the supply line
to
be in-line with the movement of the tractor, and then have a trolley with
a
power cord that supplies the tractor. It would involve some engineering,
initial investment, and maintenance, but should be about 95% efficient
for
energy conversion.

Paul

Even better, build a solid roof over the entire field, and sheath the
underside with conductive metal, like the bumper cars at the beach.
[/quote]
Well, the solid roof would block rain and sun, but a metal grid would work.
However, the bottom conductive plate would not grow much corn.

[quote]Or how about a tower, with a laser or microwave beam aiming power at a
collector array on the tractor?
[/quote]
That is a horror movie waiting to be put on You-Tube

[quote]Or hang a cable to the tractor from a tethered satellite with solar
cells.
[/quote]
They are working on geosynchronous satellites on tethers that might make
that a reality someday.

[quote]Or go back to using oxen. That will revive the whip business, creating
many jobs.
[/quote]
If the economy deteriorates enough, people may need to go back to a simpler
way of life. We may need to take lessons form the Amish. Putting more
people to work doing hard physical labor would be a good thing. Not so many
bored, unhealthy kids (and adults) blowing off their excess energy and
frustrations by driving aggressively and playing violent computer games.

[quote]Life is so much more exciting without math.
[/quote]
I think my idea has a chance to work. Probably more practical than
batteries.

Paul

John Larkin · Guest

On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 15:45:07 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

[quote]I think this could also be accomplished by stringing a grid of wires over
the field, and using a trolley that rides on the wires.

That>s certainly possible -- the "trolly tractor" was last summer>s
idea -- but requires a lot of wire. It>s actually cheaper to use a
battery.

It>s not as simple
as a locomotive or streetcar, where a single hot wire can bu used, and the
return current through the tracks. But I think a system could be devised to
provide electricity to a tractor by means of a controlled tether. It could
definitely be done with a set of tracks that would move the supply line to
be in-line with the movement of the tractor, and then have a trolley with a
power cord that supplies the tractor. It would involve some engineering,
initial investment, and maintenance, but should be about 95% efficient for
energy conversion.

Another option is to eliminate the tractor altogether and drag the
plow and other impliments off of a "super pivot," the common "crop
circle" irrigation structure beefed up for the heavier load.

The impliments would move inward for a spiral furrow.

[/quote]
Um, you might reconsider any plans you have to be a farmer.

John

Bret Cahill · Guest

[quote]Supposedly if the tank is connected to the vehicle>s engine, it>s
technically legal to bring 8 pesos/litre [$3/gallon] fuel across the
border from Mexico. ?If the tank isn>t connected, customs wil seize
the diesel and maybe even the vehicle. ?Even if it is connected,
customs may give you a hard time. ?Supposedly a driver can earn $100 a
trip running diesel in border areas but each border crossing takes an
hour or so . . .

It>s a whole lot more cost effective to just electrify the #@!%&*!
tractors and fields.
A 1/2 mile long wire 10 ?- 20 feet above the ground only needs to be
on one end of a quarter square. ?A fast discharge battery can be
relatively small as the tractor only needs to go one mile for the
round trip back to the wire. ?An on board ICE or battery trailer could
be used to relocate the tractor any distance.
As agriculture become more automated there won>t be any reason for
anyone to be in the tractor so no one will get bored as the tractor
lingers for a minute or so charging up at the wire.

What sort of battery charges in a minute or two?
[/quote]
One with lots of small cells. The smaller the cells, the faster the
charging time.

This should be common knowledge.

[quote]And where would all
that power come from, in the middle of a corn field?
[/quote]
The grid: Coal fired plants, nukes, PV, dish Stirling, geo thermal,
wind . . . whatever they got that will put out some juice. Polar
bears, tropical frogs and hurricanes are not the issue.

[quote]Do the math: say, 50 horsepower-hours:
[/quote]
How big is this field or tractor gonna be?

Plug in hybrids can go 40 miles between charges. A tractor may
require 20X higher hp than a Volt but a tractor only needs to go 1
mile between charges.

[quote]?How much power to recharge in two minutes?
[/quote]
If a 400 hp articulated tractor moves 10 mph it>s only running 6
minutes between charges and will require 3X 400 hp or ~ 1 MW -- 1/6th
the juice drawn by an electric locomotive.

In 4 years diesel will be $15 / gallon and electrification will
amount
to hundreds of dollars/hour in savings, much more money than
necessary
to hire someone willing to sit at the end of the field for a few
minutes reading a magazine charging up between furrows.

[quote]?What would the voltage have to be to keep the
?wire losses reasonable?
[/quote]
It>s only a half mile so a fat high current low voltage wire might be
desirable for safety reasons.

[quote]?How much do the batteries weigh?
[/quote]
Regardless of the size, from the articulated tractor sucking down 22
gallons of diesel/hour [$110/hr and spiraling] to a 15 hp garden
tractor, the battery + electric motor system will always have a
higher
specific power than any IC engine + fuel tank system.
The reason is a tractor just doesn>t need to go very far to work a
field.

[quote]?How much do the batteries cost?
[/quote]
Same as the batteries in plug in hybrids which require an even larger
battery / hp.

Are you now claiming plug in hybrids are a scam?

[quote]Ideas are cheap,
[/quote]
It only seems that way to those who have none.

[quote]as long as you ignore reality.
[/quote]
The reality is in as little as 8 years a lot of the big wells will
give out rather
quickly leaving the world with 2/3rds of current production according
to a recent _London Times_ interview with a former BushCo aid. On
top
of that China seems to have a permanent double digit growth rate
while, according to Soros, the U. S. will be in a decades long
recession so the size of China>s economy will surpass America>s in as
little as 6 years. This will leave the great majority of Americans
to
try to get by on a couple percent of the oil we consume today.

So here are 3 plausible scenarios:

1. electrify the fields & tractors, or,

2. return to plowing fields with oxen, or,

3. starve.

If you cannot come up with any ideas, cheap or otherwise, for a
plausible 4th scenario then I say we electrify the fields.

Bret Cahill

"Every idea is the product of a single mind."

-- Bishop Richard Cumberland

Bret Cahill · Guest

[quote]The reality is in as little as 8 years a lot of the big wells will
give out rather
quickly leaving the world with 2/3rds of current production according
to a recent _London Times_ interview with a former BushCo aid.

That>s oil. �Estimates of worldwide recoverable natural gas
reserves continue to grow year after year, despite high and
increasing consumption. �That>s because new reserves are
being found all the time.
[/quote]
Not completely carbon free but at least we can convert the tractors to
natural gas and avoid plowing fields with oxen.

Bret Cahill

Bret Cahill · Guest

[quote]The reality is in as little as 8 years a lot of the big wells will
give out rather
quickly leaving the world with 2/3rds of current production according
to a recent _London Times_ interview with a former BushCo aid.

That>s oil. �Estimates of worldwide recoverable natural gas
reserves continue to grow year after year, despite high and
increasing consumption. �That>s because new reserves are
being found all the time.
[/quote]
Spiraling oil prices will drag up the cost of every other form of
portable energy like a rag doll.

Forget carbon. Forget AGW. The _only_ serious permanent solution is
to electrify the fields & tractors.

Bret Cahill

Mark Thorson · Guest

Bret Cahill wrote:
[quote]
The reality is in as little as 8 years a lot of the big wells will
give out rather
quickly leaving the world with 2/3rds of current production according
to a recent _London Times_ interview with a former BushCo aid.
[/quote]
That>s oil. Estimates of worldwide recoverable natural gas
reserves continue to grow year after year, despite high and
increasing consumption. That>s because new reserves are
being found all the time.

John Larkin · Guest

On Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:54:59 -0700 (PDT), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

[quote]Supposedly if the tank is connected to the vehicle>s engine, it>s
technically legal to bring 8 pesos/litre [$3/gallon] fuel across the
border from Mexico. ?If the tank isn>t connected, customs wil seize
the diesel and maybe even the vehicle. ?Even if it is connected,
customs may give you a hard time. ?Supposedly a driver can earn $100 a
trip running diesel in border areas but each border crossing takes an
hour or so . . .

It>s a whole lot more cost effective to just electrify the #@!%&*!
tractors and fields.
A 1/2 mile long wire 10 ?- 20 feet above the ground only needs to be
on one end of a quarter square. ?A fast discharge battery can be
relatively small as the tractor only needs to go one mile for the
round trip back to the wire. ?An on board ICE or battery trailer could
be used to relocate the tractor any distance.
As agriculture become more automated there won>t be any reason for
anyone to be in the tractor so no one will get bored as the tractor
lingers for a minute or so charging up at the wire.

What sort of battery charges in a minute or two?

One with lots of small cells. The smaller the cells, the faster the
charging time.

This should be common knowledge.
[/quote]

Got a link to the datasheet of a battery that charges in a minute or
two? Most common batteries charge at C/10 or thereabouts, which is
typically hours. My AA camera batteries take a couple hours to charge.
Cell phone ditto.

John

Bret Cahill · Guest

[quote]So here are 3 plausible scenarios:

1. �electrify the fields & tractors, or,

2. �return to plowing fields with oxen, or,

3. �starve.

If you cannot come up with any ideas, cheap or otherwise, for a
plausible 4th scenario then I say we electrify the fields.

There is a whole level of technology that you missed. From 1880 to 1910
or so, this was high tech farming, and was growing rapidly. Peak
production year was 1912.

4) Biofuel (aka wood) fired steam tractors.
[/quote]
Few things are more entertaining than boiler explosions.

Bret Cahill

Bret Cahill · Guest

[quote]Supposedly if the tank is connected to the vehicle>s engine, it>s
technically legal to bring 8 pesos/litre [$3/gallon] fuel across the
border from Mexico. ?If the tank isn>t connected, customs wil seize
the diesel and maybe even the vehicle. ?Even if it is connected,
customs may give you a hard time. ?Supposedly a driver can earn $100 a
trip running diesel in border areas but each border crossing takes an
hour or so . . .

It>s a whole lot more cost effective to just electrify the #@!%&*!
tractors and fields.
A 1/2 mile long wire 10 ?- 20 feet above the ground only needs to be
on one end of a quarter square. ?A fast discharge battery can be
relatively small as the tractor only needs to go one mile for the
round trip back to the wire. ?An on board ICE or battery trailer could
be used to relocate the tractor any distance.
As agriculture become more automated there won>t be any reason for
anyone to be in the tractor so no one will get bored as the tractor
lingers for a minute or so charging up at the wire.

What sort of battery charges in a minute or two?

One with lots of small cells. The smaller the cells, the faster the
charging time.

This should be common knowledge.

Got a link to the datasheet of a battery that charges in a minute or
two? Most common batteries charge at C/10 or thereabouts, which is
typically hours. My AA camera batteries take a couple hours to charge.
Cell phone ditto.
[/quote]
Everyday power tool lithium ion charges in 10 minutes.

Bret Cahill


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