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Oz
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 Posted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 11:10 am Post subject: Re: GMO in Developing Nations |
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Bruce Sinclair <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> writes
[quote]In article <BBB1E2D4.40B7E%dh0496@ineINbrasVALkaID.com>, Dean Hoffman
dh0496@ineINbrasVALkaID.com> wrote:
I think hybrid seed corn came into use sometime in the 1930s. Farmers
have been buying fresh hybrid seed each year since then. The yield of corn
raised from the offspring of the hybrid seed stinks.
A farmer friend of mine used homegrown seed although he knew better. He
ran out or hybrid seed just before he finished planting. He didn>t want to
spend the $100 U.S. or so for a bag of seed since he wouldn>t use all of it.
A bin full of last year>s crop was right there so he used some of his home
grown stuff. The home grown seed didn>t yield for crap compared to the
fresh hybrid seed. The yield difference encourages farmers to buy fresh
seed each year. A terminator gene in corn won>t change much.
Theoretically true. In practice ?
[/quote]
The evidence is there before you.
Yet your answer is:
1) I can>t understand it.
2) So I>m fearful.
Please try to think about what is written, because otherwise you cannot
actually learn anything, and then become less fearful.
[quote]I guess it>s the amount of trust you are prepared to put in large
corporations. My number is small ... yours may be larger :)
[/quote]
It has bugger all to do with trusting large corporations.
Read the answer above again and try and comprehend it.
[quote]... and of course we are also ignoring the possibilty that a disease destroys
the hybrids (or even the GE stuff). The effect of this would be large if our
dependence was high.
[/quote]
Big deal, please don;t tell grandma how to suck eggs.
I>ve seen at least four cases of this in the UK wheat crop alone in 35
years. The world didn>t stop. The cause was farmer planting use.
--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
DEMON address no longer in use. |
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Bruce Sinclair
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 9:59 am Post subject: Re: GMO in Developing Nations |
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In article <BwyPE7AMNjj$EwO5@btopenworld.com>, Oz <acoohdb@btopenworld.com> wrote:
[quote]Bruce Sinclair <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> writes
In article <la7meJDvV5i$Ewg+@btopenworld.com>, Oz <acoohdb@btopenworld.com
wrote:
Bruce Sinclair <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> writes
I haven>t seen this benefit anywhere. Is it real ? Has the price for food
(incidentally NOT very high anyway :) ) really come down ?
Take a look at farmgate prices in the EU and US.
The statistics should be easily found via google.
I>d suggest farmgate price would be exactly the wrong data to look at. We have
already agreed that commodity prices are falling. My question is ... have the
food prices to the consumer fallen ? .. is this directly related to GE ?
Food prices to the consumer have indeed fallen in real terms.
The fact that the supermarkets tend to take most of the saving doesn>t
mean that shelf prices wouldn>t be even higher without the farmgate
fall.
[/quote]
Proving that would be impossible ... one way r the other.
[quote]Please note that direct GE imports to the EU are muted.
[/quote]
muted ?
[quote]Over the last few generations the price of basic food commodities has
fallen
steadily.
This is irrelevant as to GE or not. The price of all comodities has fallen
in real terms. It was doing so before GE ... it will continue to do so in
all
likelihood.
No with farmers worldwide all losing money (which they are) it won>t.
At the end of the day it can only be cheaper if its produced cheaper.
.. and if the increasing number of middlemen don>t boost their take ... which
has often been the case.
Indeed, but they would have increased their take to the max anyway.
Just look at milk pricing for that.
[/quote]
Not sure if that>s a good example :)
[quote]This is obvious when you see the amount of land and output that it
now takes for a farmer to make a living, this has been growing steadily. My
Grandfather could make a good living on 34 cows and 60 sheep, employ three
men and even in the 1950s take foreign holidays and also have a weeks
holiday in London prior to Christmas.
Now the number cows necessary to support one family in the UK is reckoned
to
be about 150, and to employ three staff you are probably looking at about
300.
Because we have machines to do much of the work ...
Yup, a combine harvester at 350k UKP.
This has to be paid for, you know.
Indeed ... but it costs less than people.
Not quite sure about that, what is so is that in the UK farm
mechanisation has more been powered by shortage of people willing to do
the job at any money. That was certainly the case with herbicide use in
veg (and sugarbeet) in the UK. Farmers turned to herbicides because
hoegangs simply were not obtainable at any price. Come to that, that
also powered the move to mechanical milking.
[/quote]
Maybe ... but I think you>ll find that people are more expensive that
mchines to do the same job.
[quote]and becuase commodity
prices have fallen.
Because they can be produced more cheaply.
Nope ... because more and more the buying is in the hands of a very few. IIRC
we have 2 major supermarket chains in NZ.
I>m not sure how much of NZ>s food they handle .. but I>d be prepared to guess
it>s be 80 % ? They buy cheap because they can ... and they are the only (ish)
game in town. Again .. this is not related to GE.
It>s more related to world prices, which is.
[/quote]
Given that most food isn>t moved around the world, how can you justify
this ?
[quote]Each advance, such as the introduction of tractors, the introduction of
herbicides and pesticides, as merely lead to the increase in production of
food per man, and the fall in price. GM is merely the next step on that
road.
Possibly. I am yet to be convinced.
The look the stats up for yourself.
I have ... as I say ... I am yet to be convinced :)
Remember this is stats :)
Look them up for yourself, it doesn>t take long on google, since you
clearly prefer to disbelieve things that contradict your religion.
[/quote]
I will happily believe reliable numbers. That said, all numbers come
with assumptions, conditions ... blah blah blah. Is there such a thing
as a "right" statistic ? ... I doubt it. Not religion ... just a
healthy does of cynicism. :) YMMV.
[quote]As for the benefit to the consumer, the proportion of the income of the
urban population is lower, allowing them more money to spend on other
things.
Proportion used on food ? I>d agree (as minor as I believe that amount is)
...
except I>ve seen nothing to suggest that the food price is in any way
related
to GE.
Take a look at world grains/soya prices.
In NZ (at least) soy price is mostly irrelevant to food. We don>t eat much
sigh> That controls world meat prices.
[/quote]
Well, in part it might. It sure doesn>t in many places ( <apologies
... shouting accidental ... caps lock :)> COS WE CAN SUPPLY MEAT
CHEAPER RIGHT NOW ... BUT TRADE RESTRICTIONS MEAN WE AREN>T ALLOWED
TO. Work that one out ... we can>t. :)
[quote]I>m informed that most grain goes for animal feed (particularly in the US).
yes, but that controls milling wheat premiums.
[/quote]
Which is relevant how ?
[quote]Any concrete ge link to price ... or indeed to any benefit ?
I>m not sure if you are simply ignorant of basic food economics, or just
have your ears closed.
[/quote]
Show me one single benefit. Show me a decrease in price that is linked
to GE. Show me any kind of reliable data that suggests it.
I>ve looked. I>ve found nothing. You may be more trusting than me and
blindly trust any numbers that you are given ... so be it :)
Bruce
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo. |
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Bruce Sinclair
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 10:03 am Post subject: Re: GMO in Developing Nations |
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In article <CQBP8HBCRjj$EwNr@btopenworld.com>, Oz <acoohdb@btopenworld.com> wrote:
[quote]Bruce Sinclair <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> writes
In article <g6knmWDRX5i$EwiN@btopenworld.com>, Oz <acoohdb@btopenworld.com
wrote:
Bruce Sinclair <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> writes
In article <eUFI9mJWFli$EwmY@btopenworld.com>, Oz <acoohdb@btopenworld.com
wrote:
Bruce Sinclair <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> writes
I can certainly see how this might happen ... IFF all crops were to be GE.
Do
you think this is likely to happen ? ... and on what timescale if yes ?
I admit, I don>t see a serious market for GE food yet - I simply don>t see
the
benefit to me or any other consumer. Until there is one, why would anyone
buy
it ?
You forget that essentially all of the americas and most of asia are,
and have been, eating and growing gm crops for several years.
I don>t forget it at all. I encourage it. I want long term data on what, if
anything, happens to people. I don>t want that data collected on me :)
How many years do you need?
Hmmm ... how about 50 as a start ?
Better stop eating kiwi fruit, much less than 50 years of mass usage.
[/quote]
Hairy berries have been around for ages. Love em. Many more than 50
years.
[quote]Macademia nuts, too.
[/quote]
Don>t like em. ... but are you suggesting they are "new" in some way ?
... if so how ?
[quote]And what are you fearing?
I "fear" only our lack of knowledge ... and our amazing ability to ignore how
ignorant we are.
Or is it fear out of ignorance?
Nope :)
I think it>s clear from your posts you neither know, nor wish to know.
[/quote]
I question ... you seem to believe. Your choice. :)
[quote]The world
leader is china, where gm is now into vegetables and a wide range of
crops. Much cheaper for peasants to grow, and very good for the
environment.
I>ll believe that when there is some data. Long term ... not just a few
years
.. and when we actually know a little bit about ecology :)
We know a lot about ecology.
Put the "lot" against the amount we don>t know, it is insignificant.
I suspect this applies to your level of knowledge.
[/quote]
Suspect away. I care not. :)
[quote]Note that the current UK GM review findings were *precisely* as I
predicted some many years ago, and that>s with my rather basic
knowledge.
It>s europe that is out of step with the world.
You might think that ... I don>t.
Ok, stay in denial.
[/quote]
As I say. Your choice.
[quote]Have you considered the amazingly small possibility that this acurately
describes your position ? ... YMMV as they say :)
Hardly, you have offered precisely no information in this entire thread.
[/quote]
I have offered what I consider healthy scepticism. The religion
appears to me to be on your side. The lack of data you are prepared to
accept as proof astounds me.
[quote]You just say "I don>t know, so I am fearful".
[/quote]
Nope. I say we don>t klnow ... and those that say we do cannot
logically be right. You have offered nothing to show that is wrong.
[quote]Note I was also correct on BSE.
[/quote]
In what way ? ... that it was never a problem ?
Bruce
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo. |
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Bruce Sinclair
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 10:07 am Post subject: Re: GMO in Developing Nations |
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In article <DQUPsSBWVjj$EwNJ@btopenworld.com>, Oz <acoohdb@btopenworld.com> wrote:
[quote]Bruce Sinclair <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> writes
In article <mKJm6hDmc5i$EwAz@btopenworld.com>, Oz <acoohdb@btopenworld.com
wrote:
Bruce Sinclair <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> writes
Boy do I know that .. anyone know anything that>ll kill agapanthus ? :)
Roundup should work fine.
Nope :)
I have one in my garden, but I>m not trying it out for you.
[/quote]
I>ve tried it. I>ve tried grazon. No luck.
[quote]What did you use, at what rate, timing and what additives if any.
[/quote]
A number of ways. 10 mL/L and 20. With penetrant and without. Cut and
on leaves. No joy. It is not listed as being effective on em ... but I
had some so tried it anyway.
[quote]Also doesn>t allow for the
seed companies simply putting the price up and controlling the food supply
...
does it ?
They can do that now for hybrids, and have been able to for decades.
Nothing new there then, but make it too dear and it>s not worth growing,
so you don>t get to sell any seed.
.. not even if they add a terminator ?
I suspect you haven>t understood what I said, above.
I understood it fine ...
[/quote]
You are suggesting that the large sed companies already control the
food. You are largely right ... but they are not chasing joe public if
he doesn>t use their seed and gets some pollen from their crops ... as
some of the GE companies are doing. Do you not consider this a problem
?
[quote]Please explain what you thought I said.
[/quote]
OK ?
[quote]but it appears as though your trust in the
multinationals is large ... while mine is not :)
I have no direct trust for multinationals, nor for you.
However, I have been trading with some for many decades and so I know
how they behave. In practice, in a marketplace they don;t 100% control,
quite well. Few, possibly none, have 100% control; not even hoover in
vacuum cleaners.
[/quote]
Who ? :)
Bruce
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo. |
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Bruce Sinclair
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 10:10 am Post subject: Re: GMO in Developing Nations |
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In article <MgqMAdBtZjj$EwOY@btopenworld.com>, Oz <acoohdb@btopenworld.com> wrote:
[quote]Bruce Sinclair <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> writes
In article <BBB1E2D4.40B7E%dh0496@ineINbrasVALkaID.com>, Dean Hoffman
dh0496@ineINbrasVALkaID.com> wrote:
I think hybrid seed corn came into use sometime in the 1930s. Farmers
have been buying fresh hybrid seed each year since then. The yield of corn
raised from the offspring of the hybrid seed stinks.
A farmer friend of mine used homegrown seed although he knew better. He
ran out or hybrid seed just before he finished planting. He didn>t want to
spend the $100 U.S. or so for a bag of seed since he wouldn>t use all of it.
A bin full of last year>s crop was right there so he used some of his home
grown stuff. The home grown seed didn>t yield for crap compared to the
fresh hybrid seed. The yield difference encourages farmers to buy fresh
seed each year. A terminator gene in corn won>t change much.
Theoretically true. In practice ?
The evidence is there before you.
Yet your answer is:
1) I can>t understand it.
[/quote]
I understand it fine ... my trust level is lower (or perhaps my
cynicism level higher ?) than yours. I agree there is a crisis in food
"ownership" already ... I>m simply at a loss to explain how you think
this justifies either letting it continue or enhancing it ?
[quote]2) So I>m fearful.
[/quote]
Nope. I "fear" very little.
[quote]Please try to think about what is written, because otherwise you cannot
actually learn anything, and then become less fearful.
[/quote]
See above.
[quote]I guess it>s the amount of trust you are prepared to put in large
corporations. My number is small ... yours may be larger :)
It has bugger all to do with trusting large corporations.
Read the answer above again and try and comprehend it.
[/quote]
<sigh> maybe we should just give up. Seems we>re missing something in
each others opinions :)
[quote]... and of course we are also ignoring the possibilty that a disease destroys
the hybrids (or even the GE stuff). The effect of this would be large if our
dependence was high.
Big deal, please don;t tell grandma how to suck eggs.
I>ve seen at least four cases of this in the UK wheat crop alone in 35
years. The world didn>t stop. The cause was farmer planting use.
[/quote]
Cause is immaterial. The effect is/will be the problem.
Nuff said.
Bruce
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo. |
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Oz
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:38 am Post subject: Re: GMO in Developing Nations |
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Bruce Sinclair <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> writes
[quote]Oz:
Not quite sure about that, what is so is that in the UK farm
mechanisation has more been powered by shortage of people willing to do
the job at any money. That was certainly the case with herbicide use in
veg (and sugarbeet) in the UK. Farmers turned to herbicides because
hoegangs simply were not obtainable at any price. Come to that, that
also powered the move to mechanical milking.
Maybe ... but I think you>ll find that people are more expensive that
mchines to do the same job.
[/quote]
Having been in that position (sprouts, cabbage, cauliflower etc) I can
say that that is not in fact the case. The entire switch over was
expensive, and forced by increasing lack of hoemen and NOT price.
Expensive sprays (then and now) have efficacy gaps, plants need to be
singles and thinned (so expensive monogerm seed and expensive precision
seeders needed) to make the net result marginal. You don>t make a big
investment on marginal gains (if any) unless there is no alternative
(there wasn>t).
[quote]and becuase commodity
prices have fallen.
Because they can be produced more cheaply.
Nope ... because more and more the buying is in the hands of a very few. IIRC
we have 2 major supermarket chains in NZ.
I>m not sure how much of NZ>s food they handle .. but I>d be prepared to guess
it>s be 80 % ? They buy cheap because they can ... and they are the only (ish)
game in town. Again .. this is not related to GE.
It>s more related to world prices, which is.
Given that most food isn>t moved around the world, how can you justify
this ?
[/quote]
Oh, to be so naive. Local prices (with adjustments for any tarifs) are
based on world price plus shipping costs. Remember food is very
inelastic so it only requires small imports, or just the threat of
imports, to crash a market to world prices. That>s why chicargo, london,
EU traded prices follow each other so closely.
Anyone actually buying or selling knows this. When I decide to sell I
have to take into account world supply and demand to judge whether it>s
a good time to sell or not.
[quote]Each advance, such as the introduction of tractors, the introduction of
herbicides and pesticides, as merely lead to the increase in production of
food per man, and the fall in price. GM is merely the next step on that
road.
Possibly. I am yet to be convinced.
The look the stats up for yourself.
I have ... as I say ... I am yet to be convinced :)
Remember this is stats :)
Look them up for yourself, it doesn>t take long on google, since you
clearly prefer to disbelieve things that contradict your religion.
I will happily believe reliable numbers. That said, all numbers come
with assumptions, conditions ... blah blah blah. Is there such a thing
as a "right" statistic ? ... I doubt it. Not religion ... just a
healthy does of cynicism. :) YMMV.
[/quote]
Ignorance, you mean.
[quote]As for the benefit to the consumer, the proportion of the income of the
urban population is lower, allowing them more money to spend on other
things.
Proportion used on food ? I>d agree (as minor as I believe that amount is)
...
except I>ve seen nothing to suggest that the food price is in any way
related
to GE.
Take a look at world grains/soya prices.
In NZ (at least) soy price is mostly irrelevant to food. We don>t eat much
sigh> That controls world meat prices.
Well, in part it might. It sure doesn>t in many places ( <apologies
.. shouting accidental ... caps lock :)> COS WE CAN SUPPLY MEAT
CHEAPER RIGHT NOW ... BUT TRADE RESTRICTIONS MEAN WE AREN>T ALLOWED
TO. Work that one out ... we can>t. :)
[/quote]
Tarifs, right. See above.
Generally countries don>t like loosing too much of their indigenous
agriculture in case prices move suddenly upwards, which they can, do and
have.
[quote]I>m informed that most grain goes for animal feed (particularly in the US).
yes, but that controls milling wheat premiums.
Which is relevant how ?
[/quote]
$10 premium on $65 feed price is still $10 premium on $100 feed price.
One you lose money, one you make a bit.
[quote]Any concrete ge link to price ... or indeed to any benefit ?
I>m not sure if you are simply ignorant of basic food economics, or just
have your ears closed.
Show me one single benefit. Show me a decrease in price that is linked
to GE. Show me any kind of reliable data that suggests it.
[/quote]
You will have to go to the USDA websites for it.
Obviously I can>t offer you any UK data, because GM isn>t grown
commercially in the UK.
[quote]I>ve looked. I>ve found nothing. You may be more trusting than me and
blindly trust any numbers that you are given ... so be it :)
[/quote]
Trust blindly?
The facts are:
1) With each advance giving cheaper production, the result has been
cheaper food in real terms. That evidence goes back 100 years.
2) Farmers wouldn>t grow GM unless it reduced their production costs.
Go figure.
--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
DEMON address no longer in use. |
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Oz
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:44 am Post subject: Re: GMO in Developing Nations |
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Bruce Sinclair <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> writes
[quote]In article <DQUPsSBWVjj$EwNJ@btopenworld.com>, Oz <acoohdb@btopenworld.com
wrote:
Bruce Sinclair <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> writes
In article <mKJm6hDmc5i$EwAz@btopenworld.com>, Oz <acoohdb@btopenworld.com
wrote:
Bruce Sinclair <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> writes
Boy do I know that .. anyone know anything that>ll kill agapanthus ? :)
Roundup should work fine.
Nope :)
I have one in my garden, but I>m not trying it out for you.
I>ve tried it. I>ve tried grazon. No luck.
[/quote]
Then you are doing something wrong.
Read the label.
[quote]What did you use, at what rate, timing and what additives if any.
A number of ways. 10 mL/L and 20.
[/quote]
Is that of active ingredient or diluted home product?
What concentration of active. How did you apply it?
[quote]With penetrant and without.
[/quote]
What is a penetrant?
[quote]Cut and
on leaves. No joy. It is not listed as being effective on em ... but I
had some so tried it anyway.
[/quote]
It would be surprising if all susceptible plants were listed, it would
be a very long list indeed.
[quote]Also doesn>t allow for the
seed companies simply putting the price up and controlling the food supply
...
does it ?
They can do that now for hybrids, and have been able to for decades.
Nothing new there then, but make it too dear and it>s not worth growing,
so you don>t get to sell any seed.
.. not even if they add a terminator ?
I suspect you haven>t understood what I said, above.
I understood it fine ...
You are suggesting that the large sed companies already control the
food.
[/quote]
No, they control seed supply, to a point.
[quote]You are largely right ... but they are not chasing joe public if
he doesn>t use their seed and gets some pollen from their crops ... as
some of the GE companies are doing. Do you not consider this a problem
?
[/quote]
That>s been the situation for 30 years.
Providing the seed houses compete freely, it>s not a problem.
[quote]Please explain what you thought I said.
OK ?
[/quote]
No.
--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
DEMON address no longer in use. |
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Oz
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:46 am Post subject: Re: GMO in Developing Nations |
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Bruce Sinclair <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> writes
[quote]In article <MgqMAdBtZjj$EwOY@btopenworld.com>, Oz <acoohdb@btopenworld.com
wrote:
Bruce Sinclair <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> writes
In article <BBB1E2D4.40B7E%dh0496@ineINbrasVALkaID.com>, Dean Hoffman
dh0496@ineINbrasVALkaID.com> wrote:
I think hybrid seed corn came into use sometime in the 1930s. Farmers
have been buying fresh hybrid seed each year since then. The yield of corn
raised from the offspring of the hybrid seed stinks.
A farmer friend of mine used homegrown seed although he knew better. He
ran out or hybrid seed just before he finished planting. He didn>t want to
spend the $100 U.S. or so for a bag of seed since he wouldn>t use all of it.
A bin full of last year>s crop was right there so he used some of his home
grown stuff. The home grown seed didn>t yield for crap compared to the
fresh hybrid seed. The yield difference encourages farmers to buy fresh
seed each year. A terminator gene in corn won>t change much.
Theoretically true. In practice ?
The evidence is there before you.
Yet your answer is:
1) I can>t understand it.
I understand it fine ... my trust level is lower (or perhaps my
cynicism level higher ?) than yours. I agree there is a crisis in food
"ownership" already ... I>m simply at a loss to explain how you think
this justifies either letting it continue or enhancing it ?
[/quote]
It>s the same with cars, only a handful of manufacturers.
Does this bother you?
[quote]2) So I>m fearful.
Nope. I "fear" very little.
[/quote]
That>s not what comes over in your posts.
[quote]... and of course we are also ignoring the possibilty that a disease destroys
the hybrids (or even the GE stuff). The effect of this would be large if our
dependence was high.
Big deal, please don;t tell grandma how to suck eggs.
I>ve seen at least four cases of this in the UK wheat crop alone in 35
years. The world didn>t stop. The cause was farmer planting use.
Cause is immaterial. The effect is/will be the problem.
Nuff said.
[/quote]
Farming is full of problems. This one isn>t the major one, and it is
predictable and happens rarely. If that>s enough for you to worry, don>t
even think of being a farmer.
--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
DEMON address no longer in use. |
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Dean Hoffman
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 8:56 am Post subject: Re: GMO in Developing Nations |
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On 10/15/03 9:17 PM, in article Ncnjb.1255$ws.120385@news02.tsnz.net, "Bruce
Sinclair" <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> wrote:
[quote]In article <BBB1E2D4.40B7E%dh0496@ineINbrasVALkaID.com>, Dean Hoffman
dh0496@ineINbrasVALkaID.com> wrote:
I think hybrid seed corn came into use sometime in the 1930s. Farmers
have been buying fresh hybrid seed each year since then. The yield of corn
raised from the offspring of the hybrid seed stinks.
A farmer friend of mine used homegrown seed although he knew better. He
ran out or hybrid seed just before he finished planting. He didn>t want to
spend the $100 U.S. or so for a bag of seed since he wouldn>t use all of it.
A bin full of last year>s crop was right there so he used some of his home
grown stuff. The home grown seed didn>t yield for crap compared to the
fresh hybrid seed. The yield difference encourages farmers to buy fresh
seed each year. A terminator gene in corn won>t change much.
[/quote]
Bruce:
[quote]Theoretically true. In practice ?
I guess it>s the amount of trust you are prepared to put in large
corporations. My number is small ... yours may be larger :)
... and of course we are also ignoring the possibilty that a disease destroys
the hybrids (or even the GE stuff). The effect of this would be large if our
dependence was high.
[/quote]
I don>t get your point about theoretically true. Using hybrid seed corn
has been common practice for decades in the U.S. At least in my area of the
central U.S. That extends nationwide as far as I know.
Trust has nothing to do with it. Hybrid seed costing maybe $30 to $60 per
acre pays out better than planting homegrown seed at under $1 per acre.
Farmers, and their bankers, have calculators.
A farmer raising his own seed would be much worse off than a multinational
company from a disease standpoint. The companies have the expertise and
resources to combat a strange disease or pest. A farmer almost certainly
wouldn>t. The companies can raise seed world wide so won>t lose their
entire seed stock if something devastating happens in one area.
A couple links that show the uses for corn:
http://www.ontariocorn.org/classroom/products.html
http://www.iowafarmer.com/corncam/images/cornuse.gif
Dean
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