Science and Technology news... :: View topic - Global Hunger is Increasing, UN Report Says

Jim Webster · Guest

"Bruce Sinclair" <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> wrote in
message news:PQzyb.10670$ws.990953@news02.tsnz.net...
[quote]In article <bq48tc$k03$2@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Jim Webster"
Jim@feeswerve.spam.co.uk> wrote:
"Bruce Sinclair" <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> wrote in
message news:pNaxb.9941$ws.883480@news02.tsnz.net...
I have no problem with Bruces point, indeed it is one I have put
forward
myself. I just point out that with falling output and consumption that
is
static or rising, distribution may well not be the only problem.

Quite so. I guess I have the general and continuing fall in commodity
(in this case food) prices generally in the back of my mind ...
meaning or implying that we have lots of it (or the price would be
higher).

or it means that there are too few purchasers for the market to operate
properly.

Agreed.

High prices in the international market do not necessarily knock on to
high
prices at the farm gate.

Agreed. Happens very rarely from what I>ve seen.

Indeed prices at the retail level in the UK are so high that the price of
wheat could double and bread prices need not chance noticably for the
consumer. In fact between last year and this year, wheat virtually did
this

Nasty. Someone (a middleman presumably ?) is making a pot of money
somewhere :)
[/quote]
simple. In the UK supermarkets are major contributors to party funds and at
one time a senior member of one supermarket family (Sainsbury) was a
minister in one party while the party chairman of the other party was past
Chief executive of another supermarket chain.
Supermarkets were sponsoring badges at party conferences etc etc. Money
talks

Jim Webster

Bruce Sinclair · Guest

In article <bqeq6a$oob$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Jim Webster" <Jim@feeswerve.spam.co.uk> wrote:
[quote]"Bruce Sinclair" <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> wrote in
(snip)
Indeed prices at the retail level in the UK are so high that the price of
wheat could double and bread prices need not chance noticably for the
consumer. In fact between last year and this year, wheat virtually did
this

Nasty. Someone (a middleman presumably ?) is making a pot of money
somewhere :)

simple. In the UK supermarkets are major contributors to party funds and at
one time a senior member of one supermarket family (Sainsbury) was a
minister in one party while the party chairman of the other party was past
Chief executive of another supermarket chain.
Supermarkets were sponsoring badges at party conferences etc etc. Money
talks
[/quote]
Very nasty indeed. :)

Bruce

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.

Gordon Couger · Guest

"Bruce Sinclair" <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> wrote in
message news:PQzyb.10670$ws.990953@news02.tsnz.net...

[quote]Agreed.

High prices in the international market do not necessarily knock on to
high
prices at the farm gate.

Agreed. Happens very rarely from what I>ve seen.

Indeed prices at the retail level in the UK are so high that the price of
wheat could double and bread prices need not chance noticably for the
consumer. In fact between last year and this year, wheat virtually did
this

Nasty. Someone (a middleman presumably ?) is making a pot of money
somewhere :)

One of the high costs is the bite the tax man takes from everyone along the[/quote]
way. Everyone one that pays taxes has to included those in their cost add
his mark up and pass them on to the next guy. By the time it goes through a
few hands the taxes start mounting up to a very great deal of the costs.

Every tax someone pays after the farmer is factored in to the cost of the
product.

Gordon

Bruce Sinclair · Guest

In article <vdTBb.95097$yJ.76356@okepread02>, "Gordon Couger" <gcouger@NOSPAMprovalue.net> wrote:
[quote]"Bruce Sinclair" <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> wrote in
message news:PQzyb.10670$ws.990953@news02.tsnz.net...

Agreed.

High prices in the international market do not necessarily knock on to
high
prices at the farm gate.

Agreed. Happens very rarely from what I>ve seen.

Indeed prices at the retail level in the UK are so high that the price of
wheat could double and bread prices need not chance noticably for the
consumer. In fact between last year and this year, wheat virtually did
this

Nasty. Someone (a middleman presumably ?) is making a pot of money
somewhere :)

One of the high costs is the bite the tax man takes from everyone along the
way. Everyone one that pays taxes has to included those in their cost add
his mark up and pass them on to the next guy.
[/quote]
Unles they are a crook they shouldn>t. Taxes are on profits ... so ...
? :)

[quote]By the time it goes through a
few hands the taxes start mounting up to a very great deal of the costs.
[/quote]
Not really. Taxes aren>t a big cost. Markups of 30% + however rapidly
become enormous if there are enuff of em :)

[quote]Every tax someone pays after the farmer is factored in to the cost of the
product.
[/quote]
Not a big part of costs IMO.

Bruce

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.

Jim Webster · Guest

"Bruce Sinclair" <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> wrote in
message news:ak8Db.12989$ws.1262242@news02.tsnz.net...
[quote]In article <vdTBb.95097$yJ.76356@okepread02>, "Gordon Couger"
gcouger@NOSPAMprovalue.net> wrote:
"Bruce Sinclair" <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> wrote in
message news:PQzyb.10670$ws.990953@news02.tsnz.net...

Agreed.

High prices in the international market do not necessarily knock on to
high
prices at the farm gate.

Agreed. Happens very rarely from what I>ve seen.

Indeed prices at the retail level in the UK are so high that the price
of
wheat could double and bread prices need not chance noticably for the
consumer. In fact between last year and this year, wheat virtually did
this

Nasty. Someone (a middleman presumably ?) is making a pot of money
somewhere :)

One of the high costs is the bite the tax man takes from everyone along
the
way. Everyone one that pays taxes has to included those in their cost add
his mark up and pass them on to the next guy.

Unles they are a crook they shouldn>t. Taxes are on profits ... so ...
? :)

[/quote]
not necessarily. Some taxes on business take no account of profits. For
example business rates which are based on site value, and also 'National
Insurance' which is paid per employee. ALso there is VAT which can be a tax
on turn over, not profit. Different countries charge these differently, and
in some countries some are not levied on agriculture, but while I agree that
taxes should be on profits, never lose sight of the fact that this isn>t
always true

Jim Webster

Jim Webster · Guest

"Bruce Sinclair" <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> wrote in
message news:cnqDb.13141$ws.1281261@news02.tsnz.net...
[quote]not necessarily. Some taxes on business take no account of profits. For
example business rates which are based on site value,

Rates are, indeed, a special case :). They are not usually a big part
of operating expenses ... and they are based (effectively) on the
"size" of a business. If that>s not related to profit, the company is
already in trouble :)
[/quote]
no, as an example supermarkets pay less per square foot than do small
shops, because of differential costs, (the further back from the door the
cheaper is the usual rule) s

[quote]
and also 'National
Insurance' which is paid per employee.

But surely you only hire people if you can make money off their work.
Doesn>t make sense otherwise ... therefore the employee>s work is
paying that charge.
[/quote]
except that you include yourself as well. These are fixed costs which bear
no relation to the income generated by the employee. They can actually make
an employee marginal or not worth employing.

[quote]
ALso there is VAT which can be a tax
on turn over, not profit.

AFAIK that is very similar to GST here. You pay it on sales and get a
refund on expenses. Net effect is small but significant.
[/quote]
you pay it on purchases and can get some refund on some things, you always
lose

[quote]
Different countries charge these differently, and
in some countries some are not levied on agriculture, but while I agree
that
taxes should be on profits, never lose sight of the fact that this isn>t
always true

While I agree this is true, those others are generally minor ... at
least in my experience. :)
[/quote]
then you are indeed lucky

Jim Webster

Bruce Sinclair · Guest

In article <brjmn2$q9o$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Jim Webster" <Jim@feeswerve.spam.co.uk> wrote:
[quote]"Bruce Sinclair" <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> wrote in
message news:ak8Db.12989$ws.1262242@news02.tsnz.net...
In article <vdTBb.95097$yJ.76356@okepread02>, "Gordon Couger"
gcouger@NOSPAMprovalue.net> wrote:
"Bruce Sinclair" <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> wrote in
message news:PQzyb.10670$ws.990953@news02.tsnz.net...

High prices in the international market do not necessarily knock on to
high
prices at the farm gate.
Agreed. Happens very rarely from what I>ve seen.
Indeed prices at the retail level in the UK are so high that the price
of
wheat could double and bread prices need not chance noticably for the
consumer. In fact between last year and this year, wheat virtually did
this
Nasty. Someone (a middleman presumably ?) is making a pot of money
somewhere :)

One of the high costs is the bite the tax man takes from everyone along
the
way. Everyone one that pays taxes has to included those in their cost add
his mark up and pass them on to the next guy.

Unles they are a crook they shouldn>t. Taxes are on profits ... so ...
? :)
not necessarily. Some taxes on business take no account of profits. For
example business rates which are based on site value,
[/quote]
Rates are, indeed, a special case :). They are not usually a big part
of operating expenses ... and they are based (effectively) on the
"size" of a business. If that>s not related to profit, the company is
already in trouble :)

[quote]and also 'National
Insurance' which is paid per employee.
[/quote]
But surely you only hire people if you can make money off their work.
Doesn>t make sense otherwise ... therefore the employee>s work is
paying that charge.

[quote]ALso there is VAT which can be a tax
on turn over, not profit.
[/quote]
AFAIK that is very similar to GST here. You pay it on sales and get a
refund on expenses. Net effect is small but significant.

[quote]Different countries charge these differently, and
in some countries some are not levied on agriculture, but while I agree that
taxes should be on profits, never lose sight of the fact that this isn>t
always true
[/quote]
While I agree this is true, those others are generally minor ... at
least in my experience. :)

BRuce

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.

Bruce Sinclair · Guest

In article <brldfe$tbv$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Jim Webster" <Jim@feeswerve.spam.co.uk> wrote:
[quote]"Bruce Sinclair" <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> wrote in
message news:cnqDb.13141$ws.1281261@news02.tsnz.net...
not necessarily. Some taxes on business take no account of profits. For
example business rates which are based on site value,

Rates are, indeed, a special case :). They are not usually a big part
of operating expenses ... and they are based (effectively) on the
"size" of a business. If that>s not related to profit, the company is
already in trouble :)

no, as an example supermarkets pay less per square foot than do small
shops, because of differential costs, (the further back from the door the
cheaper is the usual rule) s
[/quote]
Ah ... I have heard that some backward areas (:) ) charge by
"frontage" (or window area or number of toilets or some such silliness
:) ).
We are (luckily) not in that category, charging (usually) by the value
of the property (of course, that has its own problems :) ).

[quote]and also 'National
Insurance' which is paid per employee.

But surely you only hire people if you can make money off their work.
Doesn>t make sense otherwise ... therefore the employee>s work is
paying that charge.
except that you include yourself as well. These are fixed costs which bear
no relation to the income generated by the employee. They can actually make
an employee marginal or not worth employing.
[/quote]
... at which point you don>t.

[quote]ALso there is VAT which can be a tax
on turn over, not profit.
AFAIK that is very similar to GST here. You pay it on sales and get a
refund on expenses. Net effect is small but significant.

you pay it on purchases and can get some refund on some things, you always
lose
[/quote]
Well, yes (it>s a tax after all :) ) ...but the nett effect (here) is
less than or equal to 12.5% ish. Small bananas in the great scheme.

[quote]Different countries charge these differently, and
in some countries some are not levied on agriculture, but while I agree
that
taxes should be on profits, never lose sight of the fact that this isn>t
always true

While I agree this is true, those others are generally minor ... at
least in my experience. :)

then you are indeed lucky
[/quote]
:)

Bruce

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to
think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone´s fault.
If it was Us, what did that make Me ? After all, I´m one of Us. I must be.
I´ve certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No-one ever thinks
of themselves as one of Them. We´re always one of Us. It´s Them that do
the bad things. <=> Terry Pratchett. Jingo.

Jim Webster · Guest

"Bruce Sinclair" <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> wrote in
message news:pGsDb.13163$ws.1282985@news02.tsnz.net...
[quote]In article <brldfe$tbv$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Jim Webster"
Jim@feeswerve.spam.co.uk> wrote:
"Bruce Sinclair" <bruce.sinclair@NOSPAMagresearch.NOTco.NOTnz> wrote in
message news:cnqDb.13141$ws.1281261@news02.tsnz.net...
not necessarily. Some taxes on business take no account of profits.
For
example business rates which are based on site value,

Rates are, indeed, a special case :). They are not usually a big part
of operating expenses ... and they are based (effectively) on the
"size" of a business. If that>s not related to profit, the company is
already in trouble :)

no, as an example supermarkets pay less per square foot than do small
shops, because of differential costs, (the further back from the door the
cheaper is the usual rule) s

Ah ... I have heard that some backward areas (:) ) charge by
"frontage" (or window area or number of toilets or some such silliness
:) ).
We are (luckily) not in that category, charging (usually) by the value
of the property (of course, that has its own problems :) ).
[/quote]
exactly, because the value of a property has little connection with the
profitability of an enterprise you can run in that property. It means that
some high streets in some towns are effectively nothing but but estate
agents, building societies and shops run by charities who get rate relief

[quote]
and also 'National
Insurance' which is paid per employee.

But surely you only hire people if you can make money off their work.
Doesn>t make sense otherwise ... therefore the employee>s work is
paying that charge.
except that you include yourself as well. These are fixed costs which
bear
no relation to the income generated by the employee. They can actually
make
an employee marginal or not worth employing.

.. at which point you don>t.
[/quote]
exactly, but it is a tax which takes no account of profit, or the situation
wouldn>t arise
[quote]
ALso there is VAT which can be a tax
on turn over, not profit.
AFAIK that is very similar to GST here. You pay it on sales and get a
refund on expenses. Net effect is small but significant.

you pay it on purchases and can get some refund on some things, you
always
lose

Well, yes (it>s a tax after all :) ) ...but the nett effect (here) is
less than or equal to 12.5% ish. Small bananas in the great scheme.
[/quote]
in our case we turn over to the VAT several thousand pounds a year. For many
businesses, when it is 17.5%, if you cannot claim back half, this is
probably more than your bottom line profit

Jim Webster


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