Science and Technology news... :: View topic - FWD: Man pleads guilty to aiding Chinese space program

Pat Flannery · Guest

Eric Chomko wrote:
[quote]
Because as Lenin said, "The capitalists will all fight to be the first to
sell us the rope we will use to hang them."

And then the USSR imploded. Or maybe you believe that Reagan won the
Cold War. Either way Lenin was wrong. But it does make for an
interesting quote.
[/quote]
No, Lenin was dead-on right.
A society based entirly on short-term profit is quite willing to give
its global competitors anything they want to have, so that the owners of
the stock in their own national companies might achieve maximum profit
in as short of a period as possible.

Pat

Pat Flannery · Guest

Alan Erskine wrote:
[quote]
But the Japanese weren>t communists. Communism is still a major threat to
our planet and to our way of life; and the more we allow the communists to
do, the more they will take control.
[/quote]
Karl Marx said something about that regarding the number of employees
who work for their pay, and the owners of the company>s stock who sit on
their fat ass and rake in the profits from those workers labor, didn>t he?
Oh yes, you can see it all coming, can>t you?
You can>t predict exactly when it>s going to hit, but inevitably....it
is going to hit.

Pat

OM · Guest

On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:57:18 -0600, Pat Flannery <flanner@daktel.com>
wrote:

[quote]We found their Zero to be a interesting copy of our P-35...to put in mildly.
[/quote]
....And then there was Bob Stevens' take on the Zero. Saran wrap for
windows, pea shooters for wing guns, and my favorite, the ejection
seat - a grenade under an orange crate!

OM
--
]=====================================[
] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let>s face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
]=====================================[

BradGuth · Guest

On Nov 19, 7:11 am, Neil Gerace <grassyn...@iinet.net.au> wrote:
[quote]Pat Flannery wrote:
... the Romans
came up with this nifty little stuff called "concrete" that they stuck
fake marble covering on after casting their temple columns as pre-fab
parts.

Later on, those same Romans painted their real marble to look like fake marble to stop the Germans from stealing it on
their way out :)
[/quote]
Humanity was actually in many ways more survival advanced as of
thousands of years ago, and thereby long before America and our
retched outcast gang of thieves and murderers ever existed. Remember
those pathetic faith-based witch hunts, and then don>t forget to
recall what we did to our native Indians. Trust me, it>s not
something to be proud of.

~ BG

Fred J. McCall · Guest

Jan Vorbrüggen <Jan.Vorbrueggen@not-thomson.net> wrote:

:> *ALL* rocketry is covered by ITAR. It doesn>t have to be military
:> rocketry.
:>
:> See the Missile Technology Control Annex on the US Munitions List
:> (121.16). Also see 121.1, Category V. Propellants are covered, even
:> if for non-military rockets.
:
:So any hospital generating LOX for their patients' use needs an ITAR
:exemption?
:

Only if they>re exporting from the US.

:
:Every person in India using kerosene to cook their food as well?
:

Why? They>re not exporting kerosene rocket technology from the US,
are there?

:
:Surely even ITAR must just a little bit more real-world than that.
:

You>ve never actually had to deal with this stuff, have you?

--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson

Jan Vorbrüggen · Guest

[quote]:So any hospital generating LOX for their patients' use needs an ITAR
:exemption?

Only if they>re exporting from the US.
[/quote]
So why would Air Liquide, a French company, care about ITAR when selling
that plant to some place in China?

[quote]:Surely even ITAR must just a little bit more real-world than that.

You>ve never actually had to deal with this stuff, have you?
[/quote]
Actually I have - well, with the German variant. And it was pretty much
laughable.

Jan

Fred J. McCall · Guest

Jan Vorbrüggen <Jan.Vorbrueggen@not-thomson.net> wrote:

:> :So any hospital generating LOX for their patients' use needs an ITAR
:> :exemption?
:>
:> Only if they>re exporting from the US.
:
:So why would Air Liquide, a French company, care about ITAR when selling
:that plant to some place in China?
:

Nobody has ever pinned down just who we>re talking about, have they?
If anything manufactured in the US or any US nationals are involved,
they have to care.

:> :Surely even ITAR must just a little bit more real-world than that.
:>
:> You>ve never actually had to deal with this stuff, have you?
:
:Actually I have - well, with the German variant. And it was pretty much
:laughable.

And people finding it 'laughable' is how places like Iran arise...

--
"Some people get lost in thought because it>s such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn

Jan Vorbrüggen · Guest

[quote]And people finding it 'laughable' is how places like Iran arise...
[/quote]
It>s laughable when you>re temporarily exporting computer hardware from
Germany to the USA (with a Carnet ATA, so in principle customs et al.
can check that the stuff returned to its source), and when the guy who
is supposed to check on admissibility of exporting the item basically
has no idea what we>re talking about, so all he can do is put his stamp
and signature on the papers. Yeah, really effective...

Jan

Quadibloc · Guest

On Nov 19, 12:55 pm, BradGuth <bradg...@gmail.com> wrote:

[quote]China is 100% in the right, and of those helping their cause should be
rewarded in stead of hunted down and killed off. If China or India
fails, we all fail.
[/quote]
If India fails, that is bad for the people of India.

If China fails, then it will not threaten us.

If America fails, we all fail.

John Savard

Quadibloc · Guest

On Nov 19, 7:51 am, Pat Flannery <flan...@daktel.com> wrote:

[quote]The Greek concept of: "What is the best form of government?" had just
met the Roman concept of: "You are going to do exactly what we tell you
to do, or we are going to kill you all."
[/quote]
The good thing, therefore, is for the society that has the strongest
commitment to humane values... to also have the guts to defend itself
effectively against those without scruples.

Worked against the Nazis.

We should be willing to ensure that neither the terrorists, nor the
Communists (of sorts) in China, or the fascists (or at least extreme
nationalists) in Russia do us in.

My suggestion - go for nuclear power, so we are not dependent on the
oil-rich countries, and we avoid global warming - be protectionist
against our enemies, but not our friends, so we don>t pay for rope to
hang ourselves with.

I cannot really think it worth the effort to urge people to be more
virtuous and altruistic than they are inclined to be; but to urge
people to act in their own survival, it would seem, should work if my
arguments are accepted as valid.

John Savard

Quadibloc · Guest

On Nov 18, 7:22 am, "Jeff Findley" <jeff.find...@ugs.nojunk.com>
wrote:

[quote]I wonder why the news story doesn>t mention the name of the "client firm"
that bribed him.
[/quote]
No, no: that is on whose behalf he bribed someone in China.

There are more details here:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/JK20Ad01.html

and here:

http://government.zdnet.com/?p=4195

It may be that in France it isn>t illegal to bribe foreign government
officials in order to sell your products abroad instead of having
another country>s businesses win the contract. Not every country has
the same rules as in the United States.

Of course, companies that unfairly compete with U.S. exporters should
be punished by not being able to export to the United States.

John Savard

nem · Guest

BradGuth <bradguth@gmail.com> wrote in news:

[quote]China is 100% in the right, and of those helping their cause should be
rewarded in stead of hunted down and killed off. If China or India
fails, we all fail.
[/quote]
At least the Indians can actually take out a pirate ship without having to
consult with MBAs in Washington.

Pat Flannery · Guest

Fred J. McCall wrote::
[quote]Nobody has ever pinned down just who we>re talking about, have they?
If anything manufactured in the US or any US nationals are involved,
they have to care.
[/quote]
Although it may not be Air Liquide, they do fit al the requirements of
the story.
1.) They are a French company.
2.) They did business with Shu>s AMAC company.
3.) They are concerned with the liquefaction and storage of cryogenic gases.
Arguing against them is the small size of the contract by their
standards ($4 million) and the fact that development of a large Chinese
rocket booster using LOX/LH2 would but it in competition with Ariane V,
which is bound not to go over well with the French government.
Of course, that also gives them a reason to go through AMAC, rather than
just selling the system directly to China.
AMAC International states it has connections to 17 companies:
http://www.amacintl.com/Trade.html
Of which 13 are shown on that page.
They are:
API-Picometrix - Ann Arbor MI.
BarberNichols - Arvada, CO.
Bruker - Billarca, MA.
CPC - Cryolab - Tampa, FL.
CPI - Palo Alto, CA.
Cryomagnetics - Oak Ridge, TN.
Cryomech - Syracuse, NY.
Ferrite - Nashua, NH.
Flexiguide - Paignton, United Kingdom.
MEGA - Gorham, ME.
PHPK - Columbus, OH.
SI - West Palm Beach, FL.
Tristan - San Diego, CA.
So that rules any of them out, and only leaves the other four unlinked
companies as suspects.
A check on AMAC>s Beijing website (I kid you not; it>s no wonder that
the government thought that Su might be having dealings with the Chinese
government :-D ): http://www.amac.com.cn/
...fills in a few more:
CIA (I>m not making this up; it>s Cryo Industries of America):
http://www.cryoindustries.com/ in Manchester, New Hampshire.
Metris - out of Lueven, Belgium.
Teledyne-Hasting Instruments - Hampton, Virginia.
So that gives us 16 of the 17; and the only one left is the one on their
blind webpage that is no longer linked to either website:
http://www.amacintl.com/AL-DTA.html
Yup, our old French friend...Air Liquide DTA.

Pat

Pat Flannery · Guest

Jan Vorbrüggen wrote:
[quote]
So why would Air Liquide, a French company, care about ITAR when
selling that plant to some place in China?
[/quote]
Because if it was Air Liquide, Shu was the guy who set up the deal and
greased the skids for it by bribing Chinese government officials...so it
went through the US, rather than directly from France to China.
A French company might have thought it would look bad from a patriotic
viewpoint for them to be directly supplying technology that could be
used to build a Chinese LOX/LH2 commercial rocket that would compete
with the Ariane V.
That may be one reason Shu pleaded guilty rather than contest the
charges - so that the whole mess wouldn>t be aired in the public
spotlight, embarrassing both China and France.
And the Chinese officials who took the bribes?
They are now probably working in the bat guano mines of Guizhou,
supplying the nitrates to be used in next year>s Fourth Of July
skyrockets in the Running Dog United States.
This is as close to space travel as they will ever get again. :-D

Pat


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