Science and Technology news... :: View topic - FWD: Man pleads guilty to aiding Chinese space program

Alan Erskine · Guest

"Bresco" <bresco@mixmaster.org> wrote in message
news:gfukhv$4oi$1@aioe.org...
[quote]
"Alan Erskine" <alan.erskine@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:YTzUk.16107$sc2.3167@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"OM" <om@up_yours_elfritz_you_nazi.com> wrote in message
news:a8l4i49kqenmmblr5ov3jlj79pul500ghn@4ax.com...
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/17/china.us/index.html

Typical; China can>t do anything original - all they can do is copy
others.

That>s the same thing we said about the Japanese.
[/quote]
But the Japanese weren>t communists. Communism is still a major threat to
our planet and to our way of life; and the more we allow the communists to
do, the more they will take control.

Pat Flannery · Guest

Jan Vorbrüggen wrote:
[quote]
Are you saying gas liiquefaction equipment and services is in any way
sensitive technology?! Why, Linde>s patents must have expired more
than a hundred years ago.

Or are you saying that they did something on the side, outside of
their core business, in this particular case?
[/quote]
It could be this, assuming Air Liquide is the company in question.
By selling the hydrogen liquefaction machinery to China they may have
thought they would piss off the US - in which they have major sales - so
decided to keep it quiet by going through AMAC.
Although LH2 isn>t something one would use in a ICBM, it is something
one would use in large rockets for commercial space launch...large
rockets that could compete with Delta IV, Atlas V, Proton, and Ariane V
on the world launch market.
Read between the lines. :-D
I suppose one could make the argument that a large Chinese booster using
LH2/LOX could be used to launch military payloads into orbit, but that>s
cutting things pretty thin.
More than likely, this was a political move to send some message to
China and maybe France, and Shu just got caught in the middle.
Certainly, if all US businesses that used bribery of some form in their
dealings with other countries were indicted, the list would be very long
indeed.

Pat

Eric Chomko · Guest

On Nov 18, 1:46 am, nem <nem@nospam> wrote:
[quote]OM <om@up_yours_elfritz_you_nazi.com> wrote in news:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/17/china.us/index.html

Reminds me of old Bernie Schwartz, the guy who gave missile technology to
the Chinese so he could save money on launching his communications
satellites. But since Bernie Schwartz was a major DNC donor, nothing
happened to him. What did happen was that the Chinese were now able to
point missiles at the west coast of the US.

Because as Lenin said, "The capitalists will all fight to be the first to
sell us the rope we will use to hang them."
[/quote]
And then the USSR imploded. Or maybe you believe that Reagan won the
Cold War. Either way Lenin was wrong. But it does make for an
interesting quote.

BradGuth · Guest

On Nov 18, 6:43 pm, "Alan Erskine" <alan.ersk...@bigpond.com> wrote:
[quote]"Bresco" <bre...@mixmaster.org> wrote in message

news:gfukhv$4oi$1@aioe.org...

"Alan Erskine" <alan.ersk...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:YTzUk.16107$sc2.3167@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
"OM" <om@up_yours_elfritz_you_nazi.com> wrote in message
news:a8l4i49kqenmmblr5ov3jlj79pul500ghn@4ax.com...
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/17/china.us/index.html

Typical; China can>t do anything original - all they can do is copy
others.

That>s the same thing we said about the Japanese.

But the Japanese weren>t communists. Communism is still a major threat to
our planet and to our way of life; and the more we allow the communists to
do, the more they will take control.
[/quote]
Perhaps that>s a good thing, because someone sure as hell has to take
control, especially since we>ve so badly failed, and taking more than
half of Earth>s population and limited resources along for the
downhill ride.

~ BG

BradGuth · Guest

On Nov 18, 11:29 pm, Jan Vorbrüggen <Jan.Vorbrueg...@not-thomson.net>
wrote:
[quote]One company that isn>t on the current page is this French one...which
makes hydrogen liquefaction equipment:
http://www.amacintl.com/AL-DTA.html
And they do business in China:
http://www.cn.airliquide.com/en/who-we-are/air-liquide-in.html
So I think that may be the company in question.

Are you saying gas liiquefaction equipment and services is in any way
sensitive technology?! Why, Linde>s patents must have expired more than
a hundred years ago.

Or are you saying that they did something on the side, outside of their
core business, in this particular case?

Jan
[/quote]
China is 100% in the right, and of those helping their cause should be
rewarded in stead of hunted down and killed off. If China or India
fails, we all fail.

~ BG

BradGuth · Guest

On Nov 19, 6:45 am, Jan Vorbrüggen <Jan.Vorbrueg...@not-thomson.net>
wrote:
[quote]*ALL* rocketry is covered by ITAR. It doesn>t have to be military
rocketry.

See the Missile Technology Control Annex on the US Munitions List
(121.16). Also see 121.1, Category V. Propellants are covered, even
if for non-military rockets.

So any hospital generating LOX for their patients' use needs an ITAR
exemption? Every person in India using kerosene to cook their food as well?

Surely even ITAR must just a little bit more real-world than that.

Jan
[/quote]
How about their making 70+% h2o2 by the millions of kg. Wouldn>t that
be a WMD?

~ BG

Neil Gerace · Guest

Pat Flannery wrote:

[quote]They used to say that about Japan also.
[/quote]

if you go further back, England probably used to say it about the USA :-)

Jeff Findley · Guest

"Martha Adams" <mhada@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:utJUk.1393$4g5.862@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
[quote]I think this thread is onto a very very serious topic. If you
want to put it into spectacular words, I>d suggest "Now we are
choosing the language to be spoken across the Solar System,
beginning a few decades from now. Will it be American English
or Chinese Mandarin?"
[/quote]
English. All remote software developers I>ve talked to know English.
Everyone I>ve talked to about remote software development says they use
English to communicate. This is one of the reasons why India has been so
popular. But there are a lot of Chinese who know English, so China is
becoming a popular country for remote development as well.

English is a requirement for off-shoring. If companies here had to pay to
teach their employees here Mandarin, off-shoring woudn>t happen.

I still think off-shoring isn>t smart, especially when you>re shipping your
core competancies overseas. But it>s hard to convince upper management (at
any company) of this. All they see is dollar signs and the fact that
"everyone else" is doing it, so they think they need to do it too or they
"can>t compete".

If you>re a US student in engineering today, I>d recommend a PHD. A B.S.
just won>t cut it when you>re trying to compete in today>s global market.

Jeff
--
beb - To paraphrase Stephen Colbert, reality has an anti-Ares I bias.

Fred J. McCall · Guest

Pat Flannery <flanner@daktel.com> wrote:
:
:Jan Vorbrüggen wrote:
:>
:> Are you saying gas liiquefaction equipment and services is in any way
:> sensitive technology?! Why, Linde>s patents must have expired more
:> than a hundred years ago.
:>
:> Or are you saying that they did something on the side, outside of
:> their core business, in this particular case?
:
:It could be this, assuming Air Liquide is the company in question.
:By selling the hydrogen liquefaction machinery to China they may have
:thought they would piss off the US - in which they have major sales - so
:decided to keep it quiet by going through AMAC.
:Although LH2 isn>t something one would use in a ICBM, it is something
:one would use in large rockets for commercial space launch...large
:rockets that could compete with Delta IV, Atlas V, Proton, and Ariane V
:on the world launch market.
:Read between the lines. :-D
:I suppose one could make the argument that a large Chinese booster using
:LH2/LOX could be used to launch military payloads into orbit, but that>s
:cutting things pretty thin.
:More than likely, this was a political move to send some message to
:China and maybe France, and Shu just got caught in the middle.
:Certainly, if all US businesses that used bribery of some form in their
:dealings with other countries were indicted, the list would be very long
:indeed.
:

*ALL* rocketry is covered by ITAR. It doesn>t have to be military
rocketry.

See the Missile Technology Control Annex on the US Munitions List
(121.16). Also see 121.1, Category V. Propellants are covered, even
if for non-military rockets.

--
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable
man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore,
all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
--George Bernard Shaw

Jan Vorbrüggen · Guest

[quote]*ALL* rocketry is covered by ITAR. It doesn>t have to be military
rocketry.

See the Missile Technology Control Annex on the US Munitions List
(121.16). Also see 121.1, Category V. Propellants are covered, even
if for non-military rockets.
[/quote]
So any hospital generating LOX for their patients' use needs an ITAR
exemption? Every person in India using kerosene to cook their food as well?

Surely even ITAR must just a little bit more real-world than that.

Jan

Pat Flannery · Guest

Neil Gerace wrote:Pat Flannery wrote:
[quote]
They used to say that about Japan also.

if you go further back, England probably used to say it about the USA :-)
[/quote]
If you want to go _really_ far back, Greece always thought that the
Romans were their intellectual inferiors.
Greece made columns in their temples out of carved marble... the Romans
came up with this nifty little stuff called "concrete" that they stuck
fake marble covering on after casting their temple columns as pre-fab parts.
Hey...so maybe it>s a cheapo knock-off... still looks the same though,
doesn>t it?
These two different approaches to things hit a perfect apex when the
Romans conquered Syracuse...and a Roman soldier found Archimedes, math
genius of the ancient world, working on his geometrical problems... so
he demanded he surrender...Archimedes' reply was: "Do not disturb me
while I>m working on my circles".
The Roman soldier cut his fucking head off.
Theoretical science had just met political reality in no uncertain terms.
The Greek concept of: "What is the best form of government?" had just
met the Roman concept of: "You are going to do exactly what we tell you
to do, or we are going to kill you all."
In regards to China...after they have grabbed such a huge section of our
domestic product sales and bought up so much of our national debt in the
form of our treasury bonds, the quote by LBJ: "Once you have them by the
balls, their hearts and minds will follow." is dead-on accurate.

Pat

Neil Gerace · Guest

Pat Flannery wrote:

[quote]... the Romans
came up with this nifty little stuff called "concrete" that they stuck
fake marble covering on after casting their temple columns as pre-fab
parts.
[/quote]
Later on, those same Romans painted their real marble to look like fake marble to stop the Germans from stealing it on
their way out :)

Pat Flannery · Guest

Fred J. McCall wrote::
[quote]*ALL* rocketry is covered by ITAR. It doesn>t have to be military
rocketry.
[/quote]
Now we are _really_ talking that competition between new Chinese
commercial launch vehicles and Delta IV/Atlas V, aren>t we?
Hey, if you are going to go Reale Politick on the whole situation, then
at least 'fess up to it.
"The US wants as close to a worldwide monopoly on orbital launch
services as is possible to achieve, like all the other world>s countries
in competition for this economic prize."

Pat

Pat Flannery · Guest

Jan Vorbrüggen wrote:
[quote]
So any hospital generating LOX for their patients' use needs an ITAR
exemption? Every person in India using kerosene to cook their food as
well?

Surely even ITAR must just a little bit more real-world than that.
[/quote]
Air Liquide actually supplies LOX to our hospital up here in Jamestown,
North Dakota - a town of only 15,000 population.
That>s what hits me as so odd about all this...Air Liquide is such a
huge worldwide corporation (assuming, once again, that is the French
company involved) that getting four million dollars for a Chinese LH2
plant would be pocket change to them.
It>s frankly not worth the political aspects or bad press to do for the
total monetary profit that could be archived _by_ doing it.
Assuming that the four million dollar sale to China would even reap a
million dollar profit for Air Liquide, it>s not worth the risk of doing
it, and would only show up as as a small blip in their end-of-the-year
profit statements.

Pat

Pat Flannery · Guest

Jan Vorbrüggen wrote:
[quote]So any hospital generating LOX for their patients' use needs an ITAR
exemption? Every person in India using kerosene to cook their food as
well?
[/quote]
No, you want to stick the Air Liquide LOX into the charcoal for
cooking... you can cook a T-Bone steak by this means in under ten
seconds:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=liquid+oxygen+charcoal&search_type=
Okay, cow meat is out of line in India, as is pig meat in Pakistan - but
some curried chicken breasts should be right up to standard in either
country.

Pat


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