Science and Technology news... :: View topic - Fusion Energy will provide limitless power.

Sanjay · Guest

Fusion reactor ITER will provide cheap and unlimited power. It would
be completed in 10 years and use Hydrogen energy which is available in
huge quantity.

Read Full artice at:

http://www.softtanks.com/Todays_Articles.php?Topic=Energy

The abundance of Deutarium in water is 1 part in 6000 for each
molecule of water.

It amounts to we can have energy equivalent of 300 litres of Gasoline
from 1 litre of water

Bye
Sanjay

Dan Mills · Guest

Sanjay wrote:

[quote]Fusion reactor ITER will provide cheap and unlimited power. It would
be completed in 10 years and use Hydrogen energy which is available in
huge quantity.

Read Full artice at:

http://www.softtanks.com/Todays_Articles.php?Topic=Energy
[/quote]
Ohh dear, where to start?

1) ITER is a experimental reactor it will consume large amounts of
electricity but will not generate any.

2) Even if the fuel is free (and deuterium extraction will cost some money
so it is not quite), the plant cosats money to build and operate and any
given reactor will be limited in its power output. Limitless free power,
don>t think so.

3) That timescale is rather optimistic.

4) Neutrionic fuels (deuterium/tritium falls into this category) will have
some radiation issues which while they are manageable from an engineering
perspective may be a political issue....

5) We have huge amounts of fuel available if a little radiation doesn>t
bother you. There is lots of uranium out there and if you go for a breeder
cycle using either uranium or thorium there is really no shortage of
reactor fuel. Fusion is nice as the ruel products are fairly benign but
that still leaves a vast amount of steel and concrete in a intense neutron
flux......

[quote]The abundance of Deutarium in water is 1 part in 6000 for each
molecule of water.
It amounts to we can have energy equivalent of 300 litres of Gasoline
from 1 litre of water
[/quote]
Well, this bit is about right, but don>t forget we have to extract that
deuterium and that the thing will also need tritium (Radioactive - 14yr
halflife), made by neutron bombardment of lithium 6. Tritium is also very
mobile and leakage rates tend to be on the high side.

Regards, Dan.
--
And on the evening of the first day, the lord said.... LX1, Go!
And there was light.
The email address *IS* valid, do not remove the spamblock.

G. R. L. Cowan · Guest

Sanjay included:
[quote]
Fusion reactor ITER will provide cheap and unlimited power.
[/quote]
Actually ITER will be a test rig, and produce no electricity.
http://www.iter.org

[quote]It amounts to we can have energy equivalent of 300 litres of Gasoline
from 1 litre of water
[/quote]
True in principle, someday, provided the litre in question
hasn>t already been through a D extraction plant.

--- Graham Cowan
http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.doc --
fireproof fuel, real-car range, no emissions

Dr. Bob · Guest

"Sanjay" <softtanks@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cd723436.0312170229.7825f823@posting.google.com...
[quote]Fusion reactor ITER will provide cheap and unlimited power. It would
be completed in 10 years and use Hydrogen energy which is available in
huge quantity.

Read Full artice at:

http://www.softtanks.com/Todays_Articles.php?Topic=Energy

The abundance of Deutarium in water is 1 part in 6000 for each
molecule of water.

It amounts to we can have energy equivalent of 300 litres of Gasoline
from 1 litre of water

Bye
Sanjay
[/quote]
I agree, but not in 10 years and probably not even in 50 years. Fusion
research has been going on for about 50 years and they are no where near
building a commercial, power producing plant yet. ITER is a research project
not a power plant. After it is built many years of research will occur
before full engineering plans are developed. In the far future fusion will
most likely become our primary energy source but don>t sell your old ford
just yet. Like it or not, fossil fuels will be with us for many years to
come.
Dr. Bob

Joe · Guest

softtanks@hotmail.com (Sanjay) wrote in message news:<cd723436.0312170229.7825f823@posting.google.com>...
[quote]Fusion reactor ITER will provide cheap and unlimited power. It would
be completed in 10 years and use Hydrogen energy which is available in
huge quantity.

Sanjay
[/quote]
Yes, ending the dependence on crude oil is a laudable objective, not
only for geopolitical reasons but also because it is too valuable as a
cheap source of plastics, medicines, etc.
This may happen sooner than we think.

The stone age didn>t end because we ran out of rocks.

Harry Conover · Guest

softtanks@hotmail.com (Sanjay) wrote in message news:<cd723436.0312170229.7825f823@posting.google.com>...

[quote]Fusion reactor ITER will provide cheap and unlimited power. It would
be completed in 10 years and use Hydrogen energy which is available in
huge quantity.
[/quote]
Sanjay, hope not to dash your hopes, however ITER is not real. It>s
just some kids or "cranks" playing around and creating a largely hoax
website. Most people already realize this and regard it as humorous,
it being an internet instantiation of what once was known as a "shaggy
dog" practical joke.

Harry C.

Vendicar Decarian · Guest

"Sanjay" <softtanks@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cd723436.0312170229.7825f823@posting.google.com...
[quote]Fusion reactor ITER will provide cheap and unlimited power. It would
be completed in 10 years and use Hydrogen energy which is available in
huge quantity.
[/quote]
ITER is experimental. <IF> if functions as expected commertial plants are
still two to three design cycles away.

Optomistically 50 to 80 years for the first commertial reactor.

Dan Mills · Guest

saict wrote:

[quote]Dan Mills <dmills@spamblock.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<brqc6v$lh8$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk>...
Ohh dear, where to start?

1) ITER is a experimental reactor it will consume large amounts of
electricity but will not generate any.

ITER is not a reactor at all at this point--just an organization.
ITER intends to produce electrical power. Here>s a quote from their
website:

"ITER>s mission is to demonstrate the scientific and technological
feasibility of fusion energy for peaceful purposes. To do this, ITER
will demonstrate moderate power multiplication, demonstrate essential
fusion energy technologies in a system integrating the appropriate
physics and technology, and test key elements required to use fusion
as a practical energy source."
[/quote]
I do not see anything implying it has the heat recovery/conversion systems
to actually run generators, and in fact the lithium blanket required for
tritium production (necessary to breed the other component of the fuel
mix), is also IIRC missing. Power multiplication does not imply the
production of electrical power (Just that you get signifigantly more heat
out then you put electricity in.....).

[quote]2) Even if the fuel is free (and deuterium extraction will cost some
money so it is not quite), the plant cosats money to build and operate
and any given reactor will be limited in its power output. Limitless free
power, don>t think so.

This is technically correct, but it misses the point. Nothing is ever
limitless, and nothing is ever free, but ITER aims to make electricity
far cheaper, and the source is effectively limitless, because by any
reasonable standard it will outlast our biological existence.
[/quote]
The economics of big tokamak reactors are an interesting question, and one
which is not that easy to answer at the present time (I assume some work
has been done, anyone?). I have a suspicion that fuel costs (even in a
conventional fission plant) are not the major component of the operating
cost and that simple maintanance of at least the early generation of
commercial fusion plants will push the cost per Mj up to the same region as
other steam generation systems.

[quote]4) Neutrionic fuels (deuterium/tritium falls into this category) will
have some radiation issues which while they are manageable from an
engineering perspective may be a political issue....

barely refrains from making unflattering comment about politics
That>s true. </barely
[/quote]
<Grumble> Yea </Grumble>

[quote]5) We have huge amounts of fuel available if a little radiation doesn>t
bother you.

The point of nuclear fusion is that if a little radiation does bother
you, fusion has the potential to produce a whole lot less of it, and
to deal with that which is produced in a safer manner.
[/quote]
Well I suppose that tritium is a politically easier thing to deal with (14
year half life, beta decay) then fission reaction products *EVEN* given
that tritium is very very mobile and will form water when oxidised (you
think iodine take up is a problem following an accident....). It is also
toxic as its mass is far enough from that of H. that while it will undergo
all the same (chemical) reactions, it does so at a rate sufficiently
different to the other isotopes to mess with cell biology.

<Grumble>
Polititians! <spit>
</Grumble>

[quote]There is lots of uranium out there and if you go for a breeder
cycle using either uranium or thorium there is really no shortage of
reactor fuel. Fusion is nice as the ruel products are fairly benign but
that still leaves a vast amount of steel and concrete in a intense
neutron flux......

For ITERs design, yes. There>s been some serious talk about using
molten metal as a containment mechanism because it could withstand a
neutron flux of any duration. A solid wall will eventually break
down, whether in a week, or a month, or a hundred years (depending on
what materials you use in its construction and how thick you make it.)
A liquid solution would retain it>s shielding properties.
[/quote]
Actually, I think the idea was a liquid lithium wall to capture the neutrons
and breed tritium, the liquid lithium would then be circulated to heat
exchangers to raise steam for a conventional cycle generating plant.
Even with this there will be components exposed to the neutron flux and
while I do not see a serious engineering problem here, it would take a high
court judgement to get the thing lit off in this country....

Now I am heavily in favour of building ITER but realism about what it will
(and will not) be is good.

Regards, Dan.
--
And on the evening of the first day, the lord said.... LX1, Go!
And there was light.
The email address *IS* valid, do not remove the spamblock.

saict · Guest

hhc314@yahoo.com (Harry Conover) wrote in message news:<7ce4e226.0312171854.4211b455@posting.google.com>...
[quote]softtanks@hotmail.com (Sanjay) wrote in message news:<cd723436.0312170229.7825f823@posting.google.com>...

Fusion reactor ITER will provide cheap and unlimited power. It would
be completed in 10 years and use Hydrogen energy which is available in
huge quantity.

Sanjay, hope not to dash your hopes, however ITER is not real. It>s
just some kids or "cranks" playing around and creating a largely hoax
website. Most people already realize this and regard it as humorous,
it being an internet instantiation of what once was known as a "shaggy
dog" practical joke.

Harry C.
[/quote]
What are you talking about, Harry? ITER is as real as things get in
the nuclear fusion world, and http://www.iter.org is no crank website.
ITER is a serious international organization whose mission is to
overcome technical and political difficulties to make fusion a
realistic power source. Perhaps you were referring to the softtanks
website being a hoax?

saict · Guest

Dan Mills <dmills@spamblock.demon.co.uk> wrote in message news:<brqc6v$lh8$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk>...
[quote]Sanjay wrote:

Fusion reactor ITER will provide cheap and unlimited power. It would
be completed in 10 years and use Hydrogen energy which is available in
huge quantity.

Read Full artice at:

http://www.softtanks.com/Todays_Articles.php?Topic=Energy

Ohh dear, where to start?

1) ITER is a experimental reactor it will consume large amounts of
electricity but will not generate any.
[/quote]
ITER is not a reactor at all at this point--just an organization.
ITER intends to produce electrical power. Here>s a quote from their
website:

"ITER>s mission is to demonstrate the scientific and technological
feasibility of fusion energy for peaceful purposes. To do this, ITER
will demonstrate moderate power multiplication, demonstrate essential
fusion energy technologies in a system integrating the appropriate
physics and technology, and test key elements required to use fusion
as a practical energy source."

[quote]2) Even if the fuel is free (and deuterium extraction will cost some money
so it is not quite), the plant cosats money to build and operate and any
given reactor will be limited in its power output. Limitless free power,
don>t think so.
[/quote]
This is technically correct, but it misses the point. Nothing is ever
limitless, and nothing is ever free, but ITER aims to make electricity
far cheaper, and the source is effectively limitless, because by any
reasonable standard it will outlast our biological existence.

[quote]3) That timescale is rather optimistic.
[/quote]
Agreed.

[quote]4) Neutrionic fuels (deuterium/tritium falls into this category) will have
some radiation issues which while they are manageable from an engineering
perspective may be a political issue....
[/quote]
<barely refrains from making unflattering comment about politics>
That>s true. </barely>

[quote]5) We have huge amounts of fuel available if a little radiation doesn>t
bother you.
[/quote]
The point of nuclear fusion is that if a little radiation does bother
you, fusion has the potential to produce a whole lot less of it, and
to deal with that which is produced in a safer manner.

[quote]There is lots of uranium out there and if you go for a breeder
cycle using either uranium or thorium there is really no shortage of
reactor fuel. Fusion is nice as the ruel products are fairly benign but
that still leaves a vast amount of steel and concrete in a intense neutron
flux......
[/quote]
For ITERs design, yes. There>s been some serious talk about using
molten metal as a containment mechanism because it could withstand a
neutron flux of any duration. A solid wall will eventually break
down, whether in a week, or a month, or a hundred years (depending on
what materials you use in its construction and how thick you make it.)
A liquid solution would retain it>s shielding properties.

Don Lancaster · Guest

saict wrote:

[quote]What are you talking about, Harry? ITER is as real as things get in
the nuclear fusion world.
[/quote]

Yup.
Absolutely correct.

Things never get real in the fusion world.
Read its entire history.

--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
voice: (928)428-4073 email: don@tinaja.com fax 847-574-1462

Please visit my GURU>s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com

Christopher · Guest

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 22:16:13 -0500, "Vendicar Decarian" <VD@Pyro.net>
wrote:

[quote]
"Sanjay" <softtanks@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cd723436.0312170229.7825f823@posting.google.com...
Fusion reactor ITER will provide cheap and unlimited power. It would
be completed in 10 years and use Hydrogen energy which is available in
huge quantity.

ITER is experimental. <IF> if functions as expected commertial plants are
still two to three design cycles away.

Optomistically 50 to 80 years for the first commertial reactor.
[/quote]
Most of us here will either be very old or dead by then. :-(

Christopher
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Kites rise highest against
the wind - not with it."
Winston Churchill

G. R. L. Cowan · Guest

Don Lancaster wrote:
[quote]
Yup.
Absolutely correct.

Things never get real in the fusion world.
Read its entire history.
[/quote]
Fusion-powered thermal electricity plants were the
technology that was going to bring flat-rate electricity --
"too cheap to meter" -- to the world.
Presumably Strauss had a 100-amp service in mind.

Fusion research has been funded by the principal oil and gas profiteer
(PDF file http://tinyurl.com/tld7 ).
Researchers in that circumstance have to know that
diligent striving towards a noble decades-distant goal
is what they can get funding for.

I think fusion>s prospects could change quickly
if there were the actual prospect of a shortage of energy,
or if fuel taxes were gradually brought down to a sane level,
or if instant-redistribution schemes made the revenues
they bring in unusable for empire-building,
or if some deep-pocketed non-fossil-fuel interest got involved.
Recall how the bikini bathing suit got its name.

--- Graham Cowan
http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.doc --
fireproof fuel, real-car range, no emissions

PhysicsGenius · Guest

Don Lancaster wrote:
[quote]saict wrote:

What are you talking about, Harry? ITER is as real as things get in
the nuclear fusion world.

Yup.
Absolutely correct.

Things never get real in the fusion world.
Read its entire history.
[/quote]
My copy of "History of Fusion" starts 15 billion years ago. It seems
like fusion has been pretty successful overall in most cases.

Paul M. Koloc · Guest

PhysicsGenius wrote:
[quote]Don Lancaster wrote:

saict wrote:

What are you talking about, Harry? ITER is as real as things get in
the nuclear fusion world.

Yup.
Absolutely correct.
Things never get real in the fusion world.
Read its entire history.

My copy of "History of Fusion" starts 15 billion years ago. It seems
like fusion has been pretty successful overall in most cases.
[/quote]
The down side is that such cases of successful controlled fusion burns
so far only exist where humans can not.

On the other hand, stellar fusion is a clue that we have followed to
engineer our PLASMAK(TM) approach to developing fusion. For example,
surround the core or kernel plasma with a dense plasma mantle, and use
the most advantageous topology (hyperconducting Spheromak) to produce
the Sustained pressure on the fueled plasma. The PLASMAK(TM) approach
uses non radioactive fuel hydrogen (protium) with Boron-11 for a
reasonable burn density under compression (megawatts/cc). This burn
process does not produce neutrons (it is aneutronic). Further the fuel
products should be restricted to He4, not He3 or tritium. No breeding
is necessary with the p-B11 cycle, nor is it possible. There is no need
to use reactive liquid metal coolants.

Thank you for the excellent comments, everybody.

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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| Silver Spring, MD 20903-1927; FAX (301) 434-6737: Tel (301) 445-1075
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