Science and Technology news... :: View topic - Food shortage ethanol follies, I>ve planted a food garden.

HeyBub · Guest

Dan Espen wrote:
[quote]
Most famines are caused by wars or natural catastrophes.
Democracies were pretty uncommon in the pre-industrial era.

I>m at a loss to understand what the point is.
[/quote]
The point is that famines are caused by political systems. In a functioning
democracy, food can be supplied by the central government. In other words, a
democratic government is the solution to difficulties caused by natural
disasters. In totalitarian governments, often the government is the cause of
the famine. For current examples, consider North Korea, Zimbabwe, and Sudan.

[quote]
The cures for famine come from modern industry and peace.
Democracies may lead to more peace but I think that>s unproven.
We can certainly see counter examples in modern times.
[/quote]
North Korea and Zimbabwe are both at peace. Don>t know about Zim, but North
Korea certainly has the capacity for modern industry - witness their nuclear
program.

habshi · Guest

As long as the oil is there food can be produced. Once it runs
out hundreds of millions will starve to death

Bumper boro crop: But what next?
Ahsan Mansur

BANGLADESH is at the threshold of a massive bumper boro crop. Reports
from all across the country point to a potential boro output well
above the ambitious government target of 17.5 million tons. This is
certainly the best news for the country and the government besieged by
the surge in rice price all across the globe and the danger of food
shortage.

The excellent outlook for boro also comes on the heels of bumper wheat
and potato crops. This outlook also poses important policy
opportunities and challenges for the government to reestablish our
agriculture policy on a sustainable footing, consistent with the
objectives of making Bangladesh self-sufficient in food, alleviating
social and political tensions arising from the high food prices, and
at the same time eliminating emerging fiscal imbalances.

This forthcoming record rice output is the result of farmers'
whole-hearted response to the terms-of-trade (TOT) shock in favour of
rice producers and the strengthened support provided by various
government agencies. The favorable TOT shift is the most that the
farmers have experienced anytime in recent history.

The price increase of Tk 12-15 per kg of rice observed in local
markets should create additional income of Tk 21,000-26,250 crores
($3-3.75 billion) for the farmers based on the official target for
boro. Since both acres brought under boro production and the yield per
acre are projected to be higher than their targets, the actual amount
of the increase in income from boro should be significantly higher. If
we add to his boro crop an average level of production of aman and
aus, Bangladesh should expect to achieve self-sufficiency in food
grain. With total output exceeding 30 million tons, the amount of
potential total additional income for the farmers would range between
Tk. 36,000-45,000 crores ($5.1-6.4 billion) or 8-10 percent of GDP in
a full year.

High food prices

Rod Speed · Guest

habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:

[quote]As long as the oil is there food can be produced. Once it runs out
[/quote]
It wont ever 'run out', just get more expensive.

[quote]hundreds of millions will starve to death
[/quote]
Not necessarily.

[quote]Bumper boro crop: But what next?
Ahsan Mansur

BANGLADESH is at the threshold of a massive bumper boro crop.
Reports from all across the country point to a potential boro output
well above the ambitious government target of 17.5 million tons. This is
certainly the best news for the country and the government besieged by
the surge in rice price all across the globe and the danger of food shortage.
[/quote]
There is no danger of food shortage.

[quote]The excellent outlook for boro also comes on the heels of bumper
wheat and potato crops. This outlook also poses important policy
opportunities and challenges for the government to reestablish our
agriculture policy on a sustainable footing, consistent with the
objectives of making Bangladesh self-sufficient in food, alleviating
social and political tensions arising from the high food prices, and
at the same time eliminating emerging fiscal imbalances.
[/quote]
You need to fix the problem of pumping out so many kids.

[quote]This forthcoming record rice output is the result of farmers'
whole-hearted response to the terms-of-trade (TOT) shock in favour
of rice producers and the strengthened support provided by various
government agencies. The favorable TOT shift is the most that the
farmers have experienced anytime in recent history.

The price increase of Tk 12-15 per kg of rice observed in local
markets should create additional income of Tk 21,000-26,250 crores
($3-3.75 billion) for the farmers based on the official target for boro.
Since both acres brought under boro production and the yield per
acre are projected to be higher than their targets, the actual amount
of the increase in income from boro should be significantly higher. If
we add to his boro crop an average level of production of aman and
aus, Bangladesh should expect to achieve self-sufficiency in food grain.
With total output exceeding 30 million tons, the amount of potential total
additional income for the farmers would range between Tk. 36,000-45,000
crores ($5.1-6.4 billion) or 8-10 percent of GDP in a full year.

High food prices
[/quote]
Looks like you had a premature ejaculation.

Rod Speed · Guest

HeyBub <heybub@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote
[quote]Dan Espen wrote

Most famines are caused by wars or natural catastrophes.
Democracies were pretty uncommon in the pre-industrial era.

I>m at a loss to understand what the point is.

The point is that famines are caused by political systems.
[/quote]
Pigs arse they are. The vast bulk of them were caused by natural catastrophes like drought.

[quote]In a functioning democracy, food can be supplied by the central government.
[/quote]
You dont need a democracy to do that.

[quote]In other words, a democratic government is the solution to difficulties caused by natural disasters.
[/quote]
Different matter entirely to what the cause of the famine was.

[quote]In totalitarian governments, often the government is the cause of the famine.
[/quote]
Nope, the natural disaster was.

[quote]For current examples, consider North Korea, Zimbabwe, and Sudan.
[/quote]
There is no famine in Zimbabwe and we have seen some famines in democracys too.

[quote]The cures for famine come from modern industry and peace.
Democracies may lead to more peace but I think that>s unproven.
We can certainly see counter examples in modern times.

North Korea and Zimbabwe are both at peace. Don>t know about Zim, but
North Korea certainly has the capacity for modern industry - witness
their nuclear program.
[/quote]
Irrelevant to what causes famine.

Dan Espen · Guest

"HeyBub" <heybub@NOSPAMgmail.com> writes:

[quote]Dan Espen wrote:

Most famines are caused by wars or natural catastrophes.
Democracies were pretty uncommon in the pre-industrial era.

I>m at a loss to understand what the point is.

The point is that famines are caused by political systems.
[/quote]
Disagree. Look at the list again.

[quote]In a functioning
democracy, food can be supplied by the central government.
[/quote]
Governments don>t supply food.
If there is no food you have a famine.
Theoretically a totalitarian government would have an
easier job of seizing food and giving it away.

[quote]In other words, a
democratic government is the solution to difficulties caused by natural
disasters. In totalitarian governments, often the government is the cause of
the famine. For current examples, consider North Korea, Zimbabwe, and Sudan.
[/quote]
No.

As a simple scan of the that list shows, famines are caused
by war, and natural disasters.

Zimbabwe and Sudan are no where near at peace.
North Korea has serious climate issues including floods.
Part of the NK problem is that they are still officially
at war with the South.

Both Zimbabwe and North Korea also have screwed up ECONOMIC
systems.

[quote]The cures for famine come from modern industry and peace.
Democracies may lead to more peace but I think that>s unproven.
We can certainly see counter examples in modern times.

North Korea and Zimbabwe are both at peace. Don>t know about Zim, but North
Korea certainly has the capacity for modern industry - witness their nuclear
program.
[/quote]
Another leading cause of famine, too many people.
Democracies are helpless when it comes to controlling population.

I still don>t see the point.
I>d rather live in a democracy than the opposite
but it>s not because I>m worried about a famine.

Rod Speed · Guest

jtnospam@yahoo.com wrote:
[quote]On Apr 25, 10:20 pm, d...@manx.misty.com (Don Klipstein) wrote:
In
ce35f13a-121c-4c6e-897c-c7407801b...@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,

annezie wrote:
I think growing a garden is the smart thing to do this year.

I went and got some more plants today.

About high prices: I have noticed that bread is a lot higher too. At
least a dollar more per loaf here in Kentucky, which to me is a lot.

Even at today>s high prices, the wheat in a loaf of bread costs about
20 cents or somewhat less.

If I understand right, wheat prices at the Chicago Board of Trade
most recently went for $8-$8.09 per bushel. (The price peaked in late
February, a bit over $12 at Chicago Board of Trade and about $17 at
Minneapolis Board of Trade IIUC.)

A bushel of wheat weighs 60 pounds. That has wheat costing about 8.3
cents per pound. A loaf of bread usually weighs 22-24 ounces,
including some added water.

I would encourange gardening to combat the inflation in
whatever/whoever is increasing the size of their slices of the pie.

On this and your earlier post on obesity, perhaps
growing more of our own food is part of the solution.
[/quote]
Nope.

[quote]Kids play videogames for hours rather than fieldsports,
[/quote]
Plenty still play various sports.

[quote]and we drive our cars to the supermarket and load up the food
rather than planting, hoeing weeds, and harvesting and preparing.
[/quote]
Those are a pretty minor energy user with the usual home garden.

[quote]If we do more of what earlier generations
did, we will start looking more like them.
[/quote]
Nope, the food we eat is very different for starters.

[quote]Even if we don>t grow all of our own food, we
will appreciate more the work that goes into it.
[/quote]
Nope, not when the vast bulk of the food we eat comes from industrialised agriculturer now.

[quote]The greater supply will lower the overall market demand, moderating prices.
[/quote]
Pure fantasy. The prices that most howl about cant be produced at home.

[quote]It will also save some of the fuel used to carry the food from the field to our table.
[/quote]
Such a trivial part of that that its irrelevant.

[quote]As much corn as the US grows, it is much less
acreage and effort than goes into our lawns.
[/quote]
But we dont put that much effort into that now, we use machines to do most of that now.

Rod Speed · Guest

Dan Espen <daneNO@MORE.mk.SPAMtelcordia.com> wrote
[quote]HeyBub <heybub@NOSPAMgmail.com> wrote
Dan Espen wrote

Most famines are caused by wars or natural catastrophes.
Democracies were pretty uncommon in the pre-industrial era.

I>m at a loss to understand what the point is.

The point is that famines are caused by political systems.

Disagree. Look at the list again.

In a functioning democracy, food can be supplied by the central government.

Governments don>t supply food.
[/quote]
Yes they do, most obviously when first world govts supply food to the third world when there is a famine.

[quote]If there is no food you have a famine.
[/quote]
There is always food somewhere.

[quote]Theoretically a totalitarian government would have
an easier job of seizing food and giving it away.
[/quote]
In practice they hardly ever bother to do that.

[quote]In other words, a democratic government is the solution
to difficulties caused by natural disasters. In totalitarian
governments, often the government is the cause of the famine.
For current examples, consider North Korea, Zimbabwe, and Sudan.

No.

As a simple scan of the that list shows, famines
are caused by war, and natural disasters.

Zimbabwe and Sudan are no where near at peace.
North Korea has serious climate issues including floods.
[/quote]
Mainly the problem was drought and a political system that didnt allow
the usual thing done during drought, import what food is lacking.

[quote]Part of the NK problem is that they are still officially at war with the South.
[/quote]
Nope, that was irrelevant to the famine they experienced.

The problem as just a hopelessly inadequate political response to a nature disaster.

[quote]Both Zimbabwe and North Korea also have screwed up ECONOMIC systems.
[/quote]
And Zimbabwe doesnt have a famine either.

[quote]The cures for famine come from modern industry and peace.
Democracies may lead to more peace but I think that>s unproven.
We can certainly see counter examples in modern times.

North Korea and Zimbabwe are both at peace. Don>t know
about Zim, but North Korea certainly has the capacity
for modern industry - witness their nuclear program.

Another leading cause of famine, too many people.
Democracies are helpless when it comes to controlling population.
[/quote]
No they arent. The main mechanism for controlling population is a viable
democracy is a decent economy that controls population automatically
like has been seen in every single modern first world democracy.

[quote]I still don>t see the point.
[/quote]
We are discussing Sen>s stupid claim that you dont get famine in any democracy.

[quote]I>d rather live in a democracy than the opposite
but it>s not because I>m worried about a famine.
[/quote]
Irrelevant to what we are discussing.

Vic Smith · Guest

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 04:59:20 +0000 (UTC), don@manx.misty.com (Don
Klipstein) wrote:

[quote]
His weekend restaurant fare shifted significantly towards buffet places
(pig out on veggies of all carb levels) and Subway (footlong no-cheese
subs with the lean meats). Or a steak place and get a smaller steak and
extra side veggies (including beans, whatever) and buttering his potato
very minimally.

He started walking daily, average of about 2 miles a day.

I credit his highly effective weight loss mostly to reduction of calorie
intake by cutting more where calorie density is higher.

Counting calories and walking some miles a day worked for me.[/quote]
Nothing too complicated about it. Calorie cutting diets have been
around a long time and are very effective when done honestly.
Exercise accelerates weight loss and has other benefits.
Some of these weird diets - don>t pay much attention to their names -
are plain silly. My dad was going on about a diet he was on where he
could eat all the eggs, bacon, pork roasts, etc he wanted.
Gimme a break! Of course that never worked.
I think my diet was 1200-1500 calories a day, and was basically small
portions of a well balanced diet. There was nothing I couldn>t eat,
but common sense dictated certain foods worked better than others.
It takes some thought to set up a plan that you can live with.
After that it>s just sticking to it. Didn>t eat out at all except
when necessary, then just had a bit to eat. Nobody forces you to wolf
down a lot when you>re dieting.
I had a bit of a splurge on Sundays, maybe an extra 500 calories, and
once a month all the pizza I could eat.
That kept me sane. I do love pizza.
My weight had gone up slowly over about 10 years after I started a
desk job, leading to the diet. Only took about 6 months to drop the
50 excess pounds. I think I just bought a cheap calorie counting book
and used that to set up my meals.
The experience gave me a good feel for the simple steps to lose weight
whenever I bump up a few too many pounds. And it>s mostly plain and
simple don>t eat so much.
I>ve been around a lot of overweight people and see it as a
psychological problem more than anything.
They just think about food all the time.
Some blame it on metabolism. That>s bullshit.

--Vic

habshi · Guest

Once it takes more oil energy to pump oil to the surface than
you get out of it , you have run out of oil

Guest

"Don Klipstein" <don@manx.misty.com> wrote in message
news:slrng18218.rn5.don@manx.misty.com...
[quote]In article <48133cb9$0$9551$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, h wrote:

"Don Klipstein" <don@manx.misty.com> wrote in message
news:slrng15bgh.1pq.don@manx.misty.com...
In article <4811a037$0$30226$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>, h wrote:

"Don Klipstein" <don@manx.misty.com> wrote in message
news:slrng12a9m.dk4.don@manx.misty.com...

Hogs get fat from high calorie intake. Keep in mind that when the low
carb craze was expanding, America>s waistlines and diabetes rates
continued expanding.

It>s not a "craze". It>s been around forever. I stopped eating all grains
in
my 20s, when I discovered my gluten sensitivity. If I ate wheat I got
asthma, if I didn>t I was fine. I had already stopped eating most other
carbs because I would crash after eating them. I had never heard of
"Atkins"
at the time. It was just healthy, proper eating. I>m now in my 50s and I
weigh the same as I did in my 20s. I>ve gained an inch or two since my
ballet dancer days, but muscle weighs more than fat, and I only exercise
an
hour a day these days, so I>m not as fit as I was then. Still, I have more
energy than any carb guzzler half my age.

The type of calories DO matter, not just the amount. A 1,000 low carb
calorie diet of will cause anyone to lose weight, while a 1,000 high carb
calorie diet will cause most people to gain weight, exercising or not.
Plus,
they>ll be tired and feel hungry all the time.

I would call a liar anyone who says that an adult can gain weight in fat
from 1,000 calories a day.

Also, if I eat 1500 calories in a day or less, I have high incidence of
feeling tired and hungry and get slowed down on my bike no matter what
form the calories are, though worse with less carb - been there, done
that, tried it!

Also, I have NEVER met someone who didn>t lose a LOT of weight on any low
carb diet.

I have! Plenty! Coworkers, friends, relatives!

The problem is that they go back to their "normal" diet of sugar
poison and gain it all back.

Mostly they abandon low-carb after finding low-carb not working after
the first couple weeks once the body efficiently makes use of calories
mostly from fat or protein - or not working at all.

Low carbing is something that should be done
for a lifetime, not just to dump some weight. If every type II diabetic
cut
carbs from his or her diet today, most of them would be symptom free in a
few weeks. Fat doesn>t make you fat. Sugar makes you fat.

You avoid mentioning starch!

[/quote]
Starch IS sugar. You are just so wrong about all of it that I can>t be
bothered to educate you. Plonk.

Phred · Guest

In article <de09f8e5-d6f6-45a6-babe-f00937fd36a1@w1g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, jtnospam@yahoo.com wrote:
[snip]
[quote]There haven>t been that many democracies, historically speaking. Post-
colonial India has had some starving people from time to time,
[/quote]
Back in the era of "starving millions" in the 1950s/60s India was
considered such a basket-case that even FAO had given up on it.
(Pakistan was in similar trouble, but it was seen as salvagable.)

India (and other countries in dire straits) were saved by the green
revolution of short straw/high harvest index grains.

[quote]but perhaps it is a stretch to call it a true democracy...
[/quote]
They have an elected government. They have lively Opposition parties.
At least one Indian State (Kerala) has actually *elected* a Communist
government. (I think there may have been another more recently too,
up in the NE corner. But I wasn>t paying enough attention at the time
so I>m not sure about that.)

How much more do they need to do to be a democracy? They>re already
in front of the United States.

[quote].And that doesn>t mean it can>t happen.
Can we get back to the subject matter of the original post? How many
out there are planting garden crops this year?-Jitney
[/quote]
I have a plan. :-) Mind you, I had one last year too, but it didn>t
come to much -- apart from feral cherry tomatoes, some chillies, and a
grafted eggplant, the harvest was pretty meagre.

The fruit crops do a lot better though, especially the mangoes and
passionfruit. The carambola and monsteras are pretty reliable too;
but the old-style custard apple is nearly stuffed now. And the
marvellous grapefruit that has been so prolific for many years looks
like it>s succumbing to the dreaded basidiomycete _Phellinus noxius_
<http://www.issg.org/database/species/ecology.asp?fr=1&si=1007&sts=>
which has already killed off the nearby stand of pigeon pea. :-(

Cheers, Phred.

--
ppnerkDELETE@THISyahoo.com.INVALID

Rod Speed · Guest

habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote

[quote]Once it takes more oil energy to pump oil to the
surface than you get out of it , you have run out of oil
[/quote]
Not necessarily, depends on what energy you use to do the pumping.

habshi · Guest

You could use nuclear energy to pump the oil but uranium
reserves would vanish within a decade

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 05:23:12 +1000, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

Not necessarily, depends on what energy you use to do the pumping.

Rod Speed · Guest

habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote:
[quote]Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
habshi <habshi@anony.com> wrote

Once it takes more oil energy to pump oil to the
surface than you get out of it , you have run out of oil

Not necessarily, depends on what energy you use to do the pumping.

You could use nuclear energy to pump the oil but
uranium reserves would vanish within a decade
[/quote]
Wrong. And there are breeder reactors even if that was true.

Guest

On Apr 27, 4:18 pm, "Rod Speed" <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]habshi <hab...@anony.com> wrote:
Rod Speed <rod.speed....@gmail.com> wrote
habshi <hab...@anony.com> wrote
Once it takes more oil energy to pump oil to the
surface than you get out of it , you have run out of oil
Not necessarily, depends on what energy you use to do the pumping.
You could use nuclear energy to pump the oil but
uranium reserves would vanish within a decade

Wrong. And there are breeder reactors even if that was true.
[/quote]
And spent fuel reprocessing, MOX reactors, heavy water reactors that
can use depleted uranium, etc.-Jitney


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