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Eric Smith · Guest

I wrote:
[quote]Before everyone jumps on me about piracy, I>ll explain that the ROM
and PLA code in question is NOT copyrighted.
[/quote]
Robert Baer wrote:
[quote]...and, pray tell, how do you get to that conclusion?
[/quote]
By knowing some of the details of US Copyright Law (Title 17 of the
United States Code).

[quote]Every time one generates a document or a pattern (in this case the
codes, masks, etc), such items *by FEDERAL law* are copyrighted!
[/quote]
In the US, that wasn>t the case before the Berne Copyright Convention took
effect, March 1, 1989. See 17 U.S.C. 405(a):

Sec. 405. Notice of copyright: Omission of notice on certain copies
and phonorecords

(a) Effect of Omission Copyright on With respect to copies and
phonorecords publicly distributed by authority of the copyright owner
before the effective date of the Berne Convention Implementation Act
of 1988, the omission of the copyright notice described in sections
401 through 403 from copies or phonorecords publicly distributed by
authority of the copyright owner does not invalidate the copyright in
a if work

* (1) the notice has been omitted from no more than a relatively
small number of copies or phonorecords distributed to the
public; or

* (2) registration for the work has been made before or is made
within five years after the publication without notice, and a
reasonable effort is made to add notice to all copies or
phonorecords that are distributed to the public in the United
States after the omission has been discovered; or

* (3) the notice has been omitted in violation of an express
requirement in writing that, as a condition of the copyright
owner>s authorization of the public distribution of copies or
phonorecords, they bear the prescribed notice.

In the case of the ROMs and PLAs I want to extract, none of the
conditions for preservation of a copyright without notice have been
met.

Also, these parts were sold before the Semiconductor Chip Protection Act
of 1984 (17 USC 901 et seq.) was enacted, so they are not elgible for
protection as mask works.

[quote]In fact, your missive to this NG, and my answer here is copyrighted!
[/quote]
True, because the Berne Convention is in effect. I>m including quotes
from your message here as a matter of fair use.

[quote]Now, if anyone wanted to make some lawyers rich and go to court
over mis-use of copyrighted material, then copyright *registration*
would be considered as the ultimate proof that judges cannot go
against.
[/quote]
Technically registration is still a legal requirement, even though
a copyright notice is not.

However, the main practical effect of registration is that it allows you
to collect actual damages for infringement. Without registration, you
can only collect statutory damages, though they can be fairly substantial.

Eric

Guy Macon · Guest

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit

Eric Smith wrote:

[quote]the Berne Copyright Convention took effect [0n], March 1, 1989.
See 17 U.S.C. 405(a):

Sec. 405. Notice of copyright: Omission of notice on certain copies
and phonorecords

(a) Effect of Omission Copyright on With respect to copies and
phonorecords publicly distributed by authority of the copyright owner
before the effective date of the Berne Convention Implementation Act
of 1988, the omission of the copyright notice described in sections
401 through 403 from copies or phonorecords publicly distributed by
authority of the copyright owner does not invalidate the copyright in
a if work

* (1) the notice has been omitted from no more than a relatively
small number of copies or phonorecords distributed to the
public; or

* (2) registration for the work has been made before or is made
within five years after the publication without notice, and a
reasonable effort is made to add notice to all copies or
phonorecords that are distributed to the public in the United
States after the omission has been discovered; or

* (3) the notice has been omitted in violation of an express
requirement in writing that, as a condition of the copyright
owner>s authorization of the public distribution of copies or
phonorecords, they bear the prescribed notice.

In the case of the ROMs and PLAs I want to extract, none of the
conditions for preservation of a copyright without notice have been
met.
[/quote]
Just for reference, here is a list of when copyrights run
out in various situations. Corrections/comments welcome.

**************************************************

DATE OF WORK: Published before 1923

PROTECTED FROM: In public domain

TERM: None

**************************************************

DATE OF WORK: Published from 1923 - 63

PROTECTED FROM: When published with notice [3]

TERM: 28 years + could be renewed for 47 years,
now extended by 20 years for a total renewal
of 67 years. If not so renewed, now in
public domain

**************************************************

DATE OF WORK: Published from 1964 - 77

PROTECTED FROM: When published with notice 28 years
for first term;

TERM: now automatic extension of 67 years for
second term

**************************************************

DATE OF WORK: Created before 1-1-78 but not published

PROTECTED FROM: 1-1-78 (Effective date of 1976
Copyright Act)

TERM: Life + 70 years or 12-31-2002, whichever is greater

**************************************************

DATE OF WORK: Created before 1-1-78 but published
between then and 12-31-2002

PROTECTED FROM: 1-1-78, (Effective date of 1976
Copyright Act)

TERM: Life + 70 years or 12-31-2047 whichever
is greater

**************************************************

DATE OF WORK: Created 1-1-78 or after

PROTECTED FROM: When work is fixed in tangible
medium of expression

TERM: Life + 70 years [1] (or if work of corporate
authorship, the shorter of 95 years from
publication, or 120 years from creation [2]

**************************************************

Notes:

[1] Term of joint works is measured by life of the
longest-lived author.

[2] Works for hire, anonymous and pseudonymous
works also have this term. 17 U.S.C. § 302(c).

[3] Under the 1909 Act, works published without
notice went into the public domain upon
publication. Works published without notice
between 1-1-78 and 3-1-89, effective date of
the Berne Convention Implementation Act, retained
copyright only if, e.g., registration was made
within five years. 17 U.S.C. § 405.

Source: Tom Field / Lolly Gasaway.

--
Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/>

Joe Seigh · Guest

On 08 Apr 2005 19:16:09 -0700, Eric Smith <eric@brouhaha.com> wrote:

[quote]I wrote:
Before everyone jumps on me about piracy, I>ll explain that the ROM
and PLA code in question is NOT copyrighted.

Robert Baer wrote:
...and, pray tell, how do you get to that conclusion?

By knowing some of the details of US Copyright Law (Title 17 of the
United States Code).

Every time one generates a document or a pattern (in this case the
codes, masks, etc), such items *by FEDERAL law* are copyrighted!

In the US, that wasn>t the case before the Berne Copyright Convention took
effect, March 1, 1989. See 17 U.S.C. 405(a):

[/quote]
IANAL, but I believe that requirement for copyright notice applied to
published works then. But I don>t know whether PLA code was considered
an expression that was copyrightable then or that distributing IC
constituted publication even. You probably need a real IP lawyer
to answer that. But since you>re incurring the liablity here, it>s
your call.

If you were considering putting this stuff under an opensource license
it might be more problematic since you would not be the original author
by your own admission. You>d probably want to document why you think
the work is in the public domain.

--
Joe Seigh

Paul E. Bennett · Guest

Eric Smith wrote:

[quote]Ray Andraka wrote about reverse-engineering ASICs based on behavior vs.
analyzing the mask layout:
it may take a bit of work to ferret out all the operation, but it is
likely still easier than trying to reverse engineer from masks.

Speaking of such things, I have a number of old chips from which I want
to extract masked ROM and PLA contents from. Since those are very
regular strutures, and they in parts with single layer metal in 5 micron
and larger geometry, it should be fairly easy. In fact, here>s an
example of someone doing this:
http://www.pmonta.com/calculators/hp-35/
[/quote]
This seems to have emerged from another newsgroup so the context of the
original question is not clear. However, I think that those who need to
perform reverse engineering of anything (and I have done more than my fair
share of it - by neccessity) should be on clear ground as far as IP issues
are concerned.

My own reverse engineering work was always for a client who owned the
equipment and IP rights but had lost the documentation for systems that
needed to be modified. If you are doing it for reasons other than that then
the wicket is getting very sticky.

--
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett ....................<email://peb@amleth.demon.co.uk>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy .....<http://www.amleth.demon.co.uk/>
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
Tel: +44 (0)1235-811095
Going Forth Safely ....EBA. http://www.electric-boat-association.org.uk/
********************************************************************

Robert Baer · Guest

Eric Smith wrote:

[quote]I wrote:

Before everyone jumps on me about piracy, I>ll explain that the ROM
and PLA code in question is NOT copyrighted.

Robert Baer wrote:

...and, pray tell, how do you get to that conclusion?

By knowing some of the details of US Copyright Law (Title 17 of the
United States Code).

Every time one generates a document or a pattern (in this case the
codes, masks, etc), such items *by FEDERAL law* are copyrighted!

In the US, that wasn>t the case before the Berne Copyright Convention took
effect, March 1, 1989. See 17 U.S.C. 405(a):

Sec. 405. Notice of copyright: Omission of notice on certain copies
and phonorecords

(a) Effect of Omission Copyright on With respect to copies and
phonorecords publicly distributed by authority of the copyright owner
before the effective date of the Berne Convention Implementation Act
of 1988, the omission of the copyright notice described in sections
401 through 403 from copies or phonorecords publicly distributed by
authority of the copyright owner does not invalidate the copyright in
a if work

* (1) the notice has been omitted from no more than a relatively
small number of copies or phonorecords distributed to the
public; or

* (2) registration for the work has been made before or is made
within five years after the publication without notice, and a
reasonable effort is made to add notice to all copies or
phonorecords that are distributed to the public in the United
States after the omission has been discovered; or

* (3) the notice has been omitted in violation of an express
requirement in writing that, as a condition of the copyright
owner>s authorization of the public distribution of copies or
phonorecords, they bear the prescribed notice.

In the case of the ROMs and PLAs I want to extract, none of the
conditions for preservation of a copyright without notice have been
met.

Also, these parts were sold before the Semiconductor Chip Protection Act
of 1984 (17 USC 901 et seq.) was enacted, so they are not elgible for
protection as mask works.

In fact, your missive to this NG, and my answer here is copyrighted!

True, because the Berne Convention is in effect. I>m including quotes
from your message here as a matter of fair use.

Now, if anyone wanted to make some lawyers rich and go to court
over mis-use of copyrighted material, then copyright *registration*
would be considered as the ultimate proof that judges cannot go
against.

Technically registration is still a legal requirement, even though
a copyright notice is not.

However, the main practical effect of registration is that it allows you
to collect actual damages for infringement. Without registration, you
can only collect statutory damages, though they can be fairly substantial.

Eric
The Semiconductor Chip Protection Act is not relevant; the masks[/quote]
could be covered as works of art.
As far as age goes, you are correct - if an item is old enough, then
notice would be needed.
Without registration, collection of statutory damages would be rather
difficult as one would have to prove ownership and priority.
Registration is equivalent to "overkill" proof.

Pi · Guest

On 08 Apr 2005 12:53:25 -0700, Eric Smith <eric@brouhaha.com> wrote:

[quote]Ray Andraka wrote about reverse-engineering ASICs based on behavior vs.
snip
Can anyone recommend a lab that will do this, and take photomicrographs, at
a "reasonable" price?
Before everyone jumps on me about piracy, I>ll explain that the ROM
and PLA code in question is NOT copyrighted.
[/quote]
So why not look at what they do, the functionality and re-create it
with new parts? That way you avoid legal problems.

Regards,
Pieter

Delbert Cecchi · Guest

"Pi" <hoebenNOSPAM@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:mdoi519beqigig4jovkobaecd3738ftbnc@4ax.com...
[quote]On 08 Apr 2005 12:53:25 -0700, Eric Smith <eric@brouhaha.com> wrote:

Ray Andraka wrote about reverse-engineering ASICs based on behavior
vs.
snip
Can anyone recommend a lab that will do this, and take
photomicrographs, at
a "reasonable" price?
Before everyone jumps on me about piracy, I>ll explain that the ROM
and PLA code in question is NOT copyrighted.

So why not look at what they do, the functionality and re-create it
with new parts? That way you avoid legal problems.

Regards,
Pieter
[/quote]
I think maybe IDC in Arizona, (Phoenix), and MOSAID used to do a lot of
this delayering and taking picture stuff. Else, anybody that is in the
Failure Analysis business for Semiconductors. Lucky for you these are
from a vintage that makes it conceivable to me. Doing what the chinese
probably did to that crypto equipment on something modern is way beyond
my scope.

del

Clint Sharp · Guest

In message <ACF6e.561771$w62.481540@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Delbert Cecchi <dcecchi_nospam@worldnet.att.net> writes
[quote]Doing what the chinese
probably did to that crypto equipment on something modern is way beyond
my scope.
Any references to the story?

del

[/quote]
--
Clint Sharp

Delbert Cecchi · Guest

"Clint Sharp" <clint@clintsmc.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:kUhgPzAOwDXCFw+A@clintsmc.demon.co.uk...
[quote]In message
ACF6e.561771$w62.481540@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Delbert Cecchi <dcecchi_nospam@worldnet.att.net> writes
Doing what the chinese
probably did to that crypto equipment on something modern is way
beyond
my scope.
Any references to the story?

del

--
Clint Sharp
[/quote]
I was referring to the US Electronic Intelligence or something plane
that got kidnapped out of international airspace near china and forced
to land. Got the crew back in a while. As I recall we got the airframe
back in boxes. It was rumored the crew didn>t have enough time to
destroy all. Probably within last 10 or so years. Google should turn
it up. EC137 may have been the aircraft type.

I don>t know what happened to the electronics but I can guess.

del cecchi

Kelly Hall · Guest

Delbert Cecchi wrote:

[quote]I was referring to the US Electronic Intelligence or something plane
that got kidnapped out of international airspace near china and forced
to land. Got the crew back in a while. As I recall we got the airframe
back in boxes. It was rumored the crew didn>t have enough time to
destroy all. Probably within last 10 or so years. Google should turn
it up. EC137 may have been the aircraft type.
[/quote]
A Chinese F-8 and a US EP-3 collided during an intercept; the F-8 was
lost and the EP-3 performed an emergency landing at Hainan airfield. A
fairly standard cock-up between great powers.

Kelly

Kevin D. Quitt · Guest

On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 03:44:48 GMT, Kelly Hall <khall@acm.org> wrote:
[quote]A Chinese F-8 and a US EP-3 collided during an intercept; the F-8 was
lost and the EP-3 performed an emergency landing at Hainan airfield. A
fairly standard cock-up between great powers.
[/quote]
And I>m certain that it wasn>t deliberate just to hand bogus equipment to the Chinese. (Excuse me,
somebody>s knocking on my door.)

--
#include <standard.disclaimer>
_
Kevin D Quitt USA 91387-4454 96.37% of all statistics are made up
Per the FCA, this address may not be added to any commercial mail list

Lasse Langwadt Christense · Guest

Kelly Hall <khall@acm.org> wrote in message news:<QA07e.2350$dT4.172@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>...
[quote]Delbert Cecchi wrote:

I was referring to the US Electronic Intelligence or something plane
that got kidnapped out of international airspace near china and forced
to land. Got the crew back in a while. As I recall we got the airframe
back in boxes. It was rumored the crew didn>t have enough time to
destroy all. Probably within last 10 or so years. Google should turn
it up. EC137 may have been the aircraft type.

A Chinese F-8 and a US EP-3 collided during an intercept; the F-8 was
lost and the EP-3 performed an emergency landing at Hainan airfield. A
fairly standard cock-up between great powers.

Kelly
[/quote]
the theme for this episode of Jag:
http://www.tvtome.com/tvtome/servlet/GuidePageServlet/showid-242/epid-99581/

though the ending is a bit different ;)

-Lasse

Karl Uppiano · Guest

"Dale Farmer" <dale@cybercom.net> wrote in message
news:42CC1E9E.B66F6179@cybercom.net...
[quote]

gfretwell@aol.com wrote:

On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 17:37:55 GMT, "Timbo" <carrfamily@mindspring.com
wrote:

I>ve had it! I>ve put up all kinds of physical obstacles to prevent
squirrels from getting to the bird feeder outside my study window, but
the
gymnastic squirrels keep outsmarting me and mastering the obstacles.

I>d like to be able to push a button on my study desk when I see a
squirrel
climbing up to the feeder, and have an ear-splitting horn next to the
feeder
blast him.

I>ve googled (actually froogled) horns, but don>t know what I>m seeing.
I
would be grately deepful if you could recommend a relatively inexpensive
setup.

Thanks
Tim Carr

A loud noise might scare them a few times but pretty soon they will
get used to it and keep coming. Squirrels do quite well in urban
settings with lots of scary stuff going on around them.

Since this is an electrical group, something electrical involving a high
voltage
source, with one pole being the bird perch, and the other pole being the
support pole for the feeder comes to mind. Do follow local electrical
codes though.

--Dale
[/quote]
Maybe buy an electric fence. They>re available at any farm supply house.
Follow the instructions on the box, only in miniature, for squirrels.
They>re designed for cows and horses.

(Removed endless cross-postings. Sorry if you don>t see my reply, but that>s
the risk you take when you do that.)

Karl Uppiano · Guest

"Beachcomber" <not_real@xxx.yyy> wrote in message
news:42cc496d.18312312@news.comcast.giganews.com...
[quote]On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 21:00:42 GMT, "Roger Hamlett"
rogerspamignored@ttelmah.demon.co.uk> wrote:

"Timbo" <carrfamily@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:BFUye.18405$eM6.10632@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
I>ve had it! I>ve put up all kinds of physical obstacles to prevent
squirrels from getting to the bird feeder outside my study window, but
the gymnastic squirrels keep outsmarting me and mastering the obstacles.

I>d like to be able to push a button on my study desk when I see a
squirrel climbing up to the feeder, and have an ear-splitting horn next
to the feeder blast him.

I>ve googled (actually froogled) horns, but don>t know what I>m seeing.
I would be grately deepful if you could recommend a relatively
inexpensive setup.

Along the lines of your original idea, go to Google or eBay and type
in "Personal Siren". You should find an amazing number of personal
protector alarms with 115 dB electronic sirens for cheap prices.

Next you have to take this apart and run two small wires (like speaker
cable) from indoors to outdoors. I would put the siren part outdoors
and mount the battery and a pushbutton switch (you need a pushbutton
switch - like a doorbell button) indoors. The battery holder you can
get from Radio Shack. You might need to do a bit of soldering so
either learn it yourself or get a friend to help.

Beachcomber
[/quote]
Electric fence. Quiet, reliable. Inexpensive. Safe. Available at farm supply
stores.

Jan Panteltje · Guest

On a sunny day (27 Oct 2005 05:54:05 -0700) it happened "tadchem"
<thomas.davidson@dla.mil> wrote in
<1130417645.304706.227510@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>:

[quote]
Jan Panteltje wrote:
And it works!
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/TECH/10/25/human.remote.control.ap/index.html
Put on the headset, and even control yourself!

They need a less conspicuous headset for use by elected officials.
Good joke, really, I have been thinking of applications...[/quote]
For example army computer guides soldiers in complete darkness in unknown terrain.
Put one on your kids, they WILL (for the first time eh) go where you ask.
Prisoners (control) glue the headset on or something, they will follow directions..
Animals, pets, dog does not want to come? Activate remote, GPS build in,
rest is automatic.
LOL
hehe
Schools... watch the teacher...
And of cause this is only the beginning, after DNA modification the future
generation will have a RJ45 connector.....
You ain>t seen nothing yet... Think too Japanese kamikaze zeros...

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