Science and Technology news... :: View topic - Celtic Languages, Atlantic fringe, William Knox & Y Lolfa

Guest

If you are interested in the Celtic languages as they are today,
please check out my link:

http://www.williamknox.net

Pan-Celtic Phrasebook link:

http://www.williamknox.net/book.htm

williamknox.net

William Knox

Guest

On Jul 18, 11:16 pm, knoxwill...@gmail.com wrote:
[quote]If you are interested in the Celtic languages as they are today,
please check out my link:
[/quote]
I already speak Irish to beat the band, and there are people here who
are even better at Scots Gaelic, Welsh, Cornish, or Breton. What makes
you think that a linguistic newsgroup wouldn>t include its fair share
of Celtologists already?

Besides, I>m not terribly happy with Y Lolfa>s "Irish is Fun". I did
use it back in '88 when I was still learning the lingo, but I am going
to write an elementary textbook myself which is going to be better in
any possible way (and more sexy, too).

Guest

On Jul 18, 11:16 pm, knoxwill...@gmail.com wrote:
[quote]If you are interested in the Celtic languages as they are today,
please check out my link:

http://www.williamknox.net

Pan-Celtic Phrasebook link:

http://www.williamknox.net/book.htm

williamknox.net

William Knox
[/quote]
Besides, "conas atái" is wrong. You probably meant "conas ataoi".

Guest

On Jul 18, 11:16 pm, knoxwill...@gmail.com wrote:
[quote]If you are interested in the Celtic languages as they are today,
please check out my link:

http://www.williamknox.net

Pan-Celtic Phrasebook link:

http://www.williamknox.net/book.htm

williamknox.net

William Knox
[/quote]
You also give "is fuath orm é" as an alternative to "is fuath liom é"
= "I hate it". To me that reeks of a typical learner>s
misunderstanding of how Irish works. Probably you or whoever has
provided you with information on Irish has confused it with "is beag
orm é" = "I don>t like it", which is more or less the only copula
construction of this sort I can think of which has "is...ar". Usually
these constructions have either the preposition "le", if they are
about subjective judgments, and "do", if they are about more objective
circumstances.

Cf.

"Is féidir liom é a dhéanamh" = "I can do it" (because I have the
knowledge and skills)
"Is féidir dom é a dhéanamh" = "I can do it" (I might well do, because
there are no external circumstances preventing me, no reasons why I
shouldn>t)

"Is eagal liom é" = "I am afraid of it"
"Is eagal dom é" = "it is dangerous to me"
"Ní aithreach leat, ach is aithreach duit" (Seán Bán Mac Meanman) "You don>t regret it, but you damn well should!"

Guest · Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:49 am Post subject: ar do bhicycle

ara f---l LEAT.

agus an diofar idir ORM agus LIOM na...

AR - effect on the person or thing [in a "passive" sense]

LE - what skills the person has, what they can do [ETC]

AR among other aspects, I>m sure, denotes effect on a person or thing.

This phrasebook may not be perfect, but you are throwing around
statements about Irish, and in particular

"AR", without going further into what AR denotes.

You didn>t find that in Mícheál Ó Siadhail?

Attack me, but back it up a bit better. I can admit faults and
mistakes, but don>t go around making grand statements.

If there is a mistake you see, point it out or indicate some evidence
instead of bullying.

Are you a learner yourself? Or are you from the Gaeltacht?

Get back to me when you have proof, INCLUDING prove that this AR / ORM
with FUATH doesn>t exist in Ulster irish either.

as conamara thu fhein a b>e? ni h-e a b>e? ar do bhicycle.

ar do bhicycle go tir chonaill mar shampla chun suil a thoirt ar an
suiomh ansiud.

or would that be "ar an t-suiomh" because it>s ulster?

point it all out, write your own, better phrasebook, prove your
arguments.

this is better put into a fuller context, with more prepositions:

AR, LE, DO, O, AS, AG, etc etc

there is a cold ON me.

there is a disease ON me.

there is a car AT me.

there are four legs TO this table.

----------

that your irish is better than mine isn>t in dispute - it probably is.

that you can>t make a better phrasebook than i can isn>t in dispute -
you are probably able to.

but go ahead and make one instead of sitting in you armchair in dublin
or cambridge or wherever you are.

as indicated this book is not a scholarly work. go ahead and produce a
more scholarly phrasebook.

On Jul 19, 4:50 am, Craoibhi...@gmail.com wrote:
[quote]On Jul 18, 11:16 pm, knoxwill...@gmail.com wrote:

If you are interested in the Celtic languages as they are today,
please check out my link:

http://www.williamknox.net

Pan-Celtic Phrasebook link:

http://www.williamknox.net/book.htm

williamknox.net

William Knox

You also give "is fuath orm é" as an alternative to "is fuath liom é"
= "I hate it". To me that reeks of a typical learner>s
misunderstanding of how Irish works. Probably you or whoever has
provided you with information on Irish has confused it with "is beag
orm é" = "I don>t like it", which is more or less the only copula
construction of this sort I can think of which has "is...ar". Usually
these constructions have either the preposition "le", if they are
about subjective judgments, and "do", if they are about more objective
circumstances.

Cf.

"Is féidir liom é a dhéanamh" = "I can do it" (because I have the
knowledge and skills)
"Is féidir dom é a dhéanamh" = "I can do it" (I might well do, because
there are no external circumstances preventing me, no reasons why I
shouldn>t)

"Is eagal liom é" = "I am afraid of it"
"Is eagal dom é" = "it is dangerous to me"
"Ní aithreach leat, ach is aithreach duit" (Seán Bán Mac Meanman) > "You don>t regret it, but you damn well should!"[/quote]

Guest

annother example of this man>s bullying:

"Tu eres un hombre muy mal. Dusanito."

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.lang/browse_thread/thread/20fdcc6af0c313be#

- cabroncito enculado irlandes con tus libros sexys, no me los toca
asi.

Peter T. Daniels · Guest

On Jul 19, 12:09 am, knoxwill...@gmail.com wrote:
[quote]annother example of this man>s bullying:

"Tu eres un hombre muy mal. Dusanito."

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.lang/browse_thread/thread/20fdcc6a...

- cabroncito enculado irlandes con tus libros sexys, no me los toca
asi.
[/quote]
You don>t have the slightest idea what you>re talking about.

If you had spent five minutes looking through recent postings to this
newsgroup, instead of plopping your commercial advertisement in, you
would know his name, his native language, the degree of his competence
in Irish, and the reason for the above statement.

Guest · Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: ar do bhicycle

On Jul 19, 6:49 am, knoxwill...@gmail.com wrote:
[quote]
----------

that your irish is better than mine isn>t in dispute - it probably is.

that you can>t make a better phrasebook than i can isn>t in dispute -
you are probably able to.

but go ahead and make one instead of sitting in you armchair in dublin
or cambridge or wherever you are.

as indicated this book is not a scholarly work. go ahead and produce a
more scholarly phrasebook.
[/quote]

It is not about being "scholarly". It is about being good.

And I don>t sit in my armchair in Dublin or Cambridge. I don>t even
have an armchair, those things are terribly expensive.

Besides, I have been active in the online Irish-language community
since 1995, and I have already done much more than just a phrasebook.
For example, before I joined the Irish-language Wikipedia, I had
already written my own online encyclopedia of astronomy.

Guest · Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject: Re: ar do bhicycle

On Jul 19, 6:49 am, knoxwill...@gmail.com wrote:
[quote]ara f---l LEAT.

agus an diofar idir ORM agus LIOM na...

AR - effect on the person or thing [in a "passive" sense]

LE - what skills the person has, what they can do [ETC]

AR among other aspects, I>m sure, denotes effect on a person or thing.

This phrasebook may not be perfect, but you are throwing around
statements about Irish, and in particular

"AR", without going further into what AR denotes.

You didn>t find that in Mícheál Ó Siadhail?

Attack me, but back it up a bit better. I can admit faults and
mistakes, but don>t go around making grand statements.

If there is a mistake you see, point it out or indicate some evidence
instead of bullying.

Are you a learner yourself? Or are you from the Gaeltacht?

Get back to me when you have proof, INCLUDING prove that this AR / ORM
with FUATH doesn>t exist in Ulster irish either.

as conamara thu fhein a b>e? ni h-e a b>e? ar do bhicycle.

ar do bhicycle go tir chonaill mar shampla chun suil a thoirt ar an
suiomh ansiud.

or would that be "ar an t-suiomh" because it>s ulster?

point it all out, write your own, better phrasebook, prove your
arguments.

this is better put into a fuller context, with more prepositions:

AR, LE, DO, O, AS, AG, etc etc

there is a cold ON me.

there is a disease ON me.
[/quote]
You still don>t get it. This "is fuath liom é" is a copula
construction. With a copula, you have different rules from the verb
tá.

You are quite right about the usage of "ar" with the verb "tá": tá
fuacht orm, tá galar orm, tá slaghdán orm. However, that does not
apply to the copula "is", which has different rules.

Besides, even if you use "fuath" with the verb "tá", you don>t say
*"tá fuath orm" in the meaning "I hate". Hatred (fuath) and love (grá)
are perceived as attitudes, not as transient emotions. So, the person
who hates or loves takes the preposition "ag", and the object of the
hatred the preposition ar or do. (I would prefer do, but ar is quite
OK at least for "fuath".)

You can say "Is fuath liom é" = I hate him. And you can say "Tá fuath
agam dó." (cf. "Tá grá agam dó.") And you can say "Tá fuath agam air."
But note that "air" is not about the one who does the hating, it is
about the one who is hated.

The same applies to sympathy: "Tá dáimh agam leis" = I am fond of him..

For a transient emotion such as wrath, ire, anger, we use ar: "Tá
fearg orm leat" = "I am angry with you".

And BTW, I haven>t needed Ó Siadhail for more than ten years. I looked
for "is fuath orm é" in Ó Dónaill>s dictionary, in Dinneen>s
dictionary and in Ciarán Ó Duibhin>s "Tobar" database of Gaeltacht
Irish. I didn>t find it anywhere.

Guest · Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: ar do bhicycle

On Jul 19, 6:49 am, knoxwill...@gmail.com wrote:
[quote]
but go ahead and make one instead of sitting in you armchair in dublin
or cambridge or wherever you are.

as indicated this book is not a scholarly work. go ahead and produce a
more scholarly phrasebook.
[/quote]
I don>t need to. My friend Marion Gunn already made one. It is called
"Da Mihi Manum".

And as I said, a phrasebook is not supposed to be "scholarly". It is
supposed to be *accurate*. Your phrasebook can be as unscholarly as
you want, the problems begin when it is *inaccurate*.

Peter T. Daniels · Guest

On Jul 19, 11:13 am, Craoibhi...@gmail.com wrote:
[quote]On Jul 19, 6:49 am, knoxwill...@gmail.com wrote:

but go ahead and make one instead of sitting in you armchair in dublin
or cambridge or wherever you are.

as indicated this book is not a scholarly work. go ahead and produce a
more scholarly phrasebook.

I don>t need to. My friend Marion Gunn already made one. It is called
"Da Mihi Manum".
[/quote]
"Give Me a Hand"?

[quote]And as I said, a phrasebook is not supposed to be "scholarly". It is
supposed to be *accurate*. Your phrasebook can be as unscholarly as
you want, the problems begin when it is *inaccurate*.[/quote]

Guest · Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: ar do bhicycle

On Jul 19, 6:26 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]On Jul 19, 11:13 am, Craoibhi...@gmail.com wrote:

On Jul 19, 6:49 am, knoxwill...@gmail.com wrote:

but go ahead and make one instead of sitting in you armchair in dublin
or cambridge or wherever you are.

as indicated this book is not a scholarly work. go ahead and produce a
more scholarly phrasebook.

I don>t need to. My friend Marion Gunn already made one. It is called
"Da Mihi Manum".

"Give Me a Hand"?
[/quote]
Yes, Latin for neutrality, I guess.

As regards unscholarly phrasebooks, I could provide one here.

Cá bhfuil na cailíní? Tá mo bhod ina sheasamh cheana féin. = Where are
the girls? My penis is standing erect already.

Ba mhaith liom bheith ag bualadh craicinn. Ní maith liom faoiseamh an
bhéil, tá a fhios agat. Is dóigh liom nach bhfuil sé róshláinteach. I would like to have real intercourse. I don>t like fellatio, you
know. I don>t think it>s very hygienic.

Cá bhféadfainn coiscíní a cheannach? Níor mhaith liom an SEIF a
thógáil. = Where could I buy condoms? I wouldn>t like to contract
AIDS.

Tabhair dom do chuid airgid, nó is duitse is measa! = Give me your
money, or you>ll be sorry!

Cuir uait an t-inneallghunna sin, le do thoil. Tá faitíos orm. = Put
away that machine-gun, please. I am frightened.

Gheobhaidh tú mo phas le feiceáil, ar ndóigh. Ní gá an gunna sin a
bhagairt orm. = Of course you>ll get to see my passport. No need to be
pointing with that gun.

Guest · Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: ar do bhicycle

yes.

"give me a hand."

wait a minute. wouldn>t you know that already?

if you had spent a few minutes researching that phrase in latin, you
wouldn>t have to ask people online.

if if if.

agus an t-address agat fhein-sa? cambridge no ait eigin pretentious
mar sin a b>ea? (this is merely a symbolic phrase in a language you
don>t understand, to impress you - don>t buy into it. shame that the
language is becoming symbolic and atrophied though.)

really, this usenet group is like a bunch of stuffy tosser profs
pretending the information they have is important. "my knowledge is
better than yours" etc. it>s really wanky. "I>m better than you." etc.
tossers.

your thoughts serve for you as a jail.

now will we go to gort a' choirce and find a vestige of the IS fuath
ORM or will I remove it from the offending page, since it may appear
the language has atrophied to the point where we have become mere
parrots, and can>t contemplate anything that hasn>t been proven to
have been said in the past?

IS beag ORM

but no

IS fuath ORM

Now, this could be:

1. nitpicking

or

2. an error

or

3. 1 and 2

or

4. not incorrect, but not proven at this point to be correct.

--------

based on what I hear, I would now remove the offending phrase, due to
lack of proof that it is used. but it would be great to know 100%
whether this is used somewhere. an error is very bad news. anything
not proven to be correct should not have been published - that i have
no argument with.

Someone is missing the point? There is more than one "point".

Should publications contain mistakes? Binary answer: NO

This I have no argument with.

But the problem with this is that once it goes through proofreaders
and off to print, mistakes happen. The owner of the mistake is the
author though, and IF this is a mistake, I am indeed the owner of it.

This did in fact go through a proofreader whose Irish is better than
mine, but he is a dual Scottish Gaelic / Welsh native speaker.

chan ndeanann tu faic mura ndeanann tu dearmaid no dha. rinne muid rud
eigin. sin an sceal uaimsa.

caithfidh muid dhul go gort a' choirce chun suil ar an t-suiomh an-
siud a thoirt.

Guest

On Jul 20, 12:06 am, Craoibhi...@gmail.com wrote:
[quote]On Jul 19, 6:26 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:

On Jul 19, 11:13 am, Craoibhi...@gmail.com wrote:

On Jul 19, 6:49 am, knoxwill...@gmail.com wrote:

but go ahead and make one instead of sitting in you armchair in dublin
or cambridge or wherever you are.

as indicated this book is not a scholarly work. go ahead and produce a
more scholarly phrasebook.

I don>t need to. My friend Marion Gunn already made one. It is called
"Da Mihi Manum".

"Give Me a Hand"?

Yes, Latin for neutrality, I guess.

As regards unscholarly phrasebooks, I could provide one here.

Cá bhfuil na cailíní? Tá mo bhod ina sheasamh cheana féin. = Where are
the girls? My penis is standing erect already.

Ba mhaith liom bheith ag bualadh craicinn. Ní maith liom faoiseamh an
bhéil, tá a fhios agat. Is dóigh liom nach bhfuil sé róshláinteach. > I would like to have real intercourse. I don>t like fellatio, you
know. I don>t think it>s very hygienic.

Cá bhféadfainn coiscíní a cheannach? Níor mhaith liom an SEIF a
thógáil. = Where could I buy condoms? I wouldn>t like to contract
AIDS.

Tabhair dom do chuid airgid, nó is duitse is measa! = Give me your
money, or you>ll be sorry!

Cuir uait an t-inneallghunna sin, le do thoil. Tá faitíos orm. = Put
away that machine-gun, please. I am frightened.

Gheobhaidh tú mo phas le feiceáil, ar ndóigh. Ní gá an gunna sin a
bhagairt orm. = Of course you>ll get to see my passport. No need to be
pointing with that gun.
[/quote]
-------------------

Aaaa, I>m not being sarcastic or taking the piss - you SHOULD write a
phrasebook.

I did include a few edgy phrases, but I wanted to keep it more on a
practical level.

You WOULD probably create a better phrasebook.

But wait. innealghunna? on choiste tearmaiochta? nice one. but this
isn>t exactly going to be a word that someone is going to actually
use, and may not even understand. or are you going to argue that one
too?

an t-address
do bhicycle

well, this is gaeltacht irish. would sb say "innealghunna"???? i dont
think so.

but then if you>re in dublin drinking a "meanglam" in a pretentious
wine bar, i suppose you would say "innealghunna".

etc.

maybe stick to "gunna"?

;-)

Guest · Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: ar do bhicycle

Your holy indignation would sound a little less irritating, if it
weren>t for the fact that you are actually trying to make money on
your bad Irish, while I have taught people my good Irish online for
love, and not for money.

Go n-ithe an cat mara thú, a Uasail Cnocs, agus go n-ithe an diabhal
an cat mara. Tusa agus do leithéidí is cúis leis an dóigh a bhfuil an
teanga ag saothrú an bháis - daoine nach bhfuil grá ar bith acu don
teanga, agus iad ag iarraidh airgead a shaothrú ar an mbeagán droch-
Ghaeilge atá agaibh, sin nó bhur leas a bhaint as an teanga le cuspóir
polaitiúil de shórt éigin a chur chun cinn.


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