Science and Technology news... :: View topic - Brain makes decisions before you even know it

Pranav Peshwe · Guest

On Apr 15, 11:16 pm, c...@kcwc.com (Curt Welch) wrote:
[quote]Pranav Peshwe <pranavpes...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Apr 14, 6:19 am, "John Hasenkam" <jo...@goawayplease.com> wrote:
In a way not surprising but I find the 10 sec delay suspicious. It is
also a simple decision making process(left or right button). I don>t
think that is representative of most decision making processes.

http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html

Your brain makes up its mind up to ten seconds before you realize it,
according to researchers. By looking at brain activity while making a
decision, the researchers could predict what choice people would make
before they themselves were even aware of having made a decision.

...

Ten seconds seems a bit too much. What about split second decisions
like the ones we have to take while driving or playing ?

They are no trying to claim that _all_ behavior can be predicted 10 seconds
before it happens or before we can report being aware of our decision, just
this one very specific type of test which had no time limit on the
decision.

Also, it is
the brain which takes the decision and it is the brain itself which
gives the feeling to the individual that 'he' has taken a decision, so
the delay between taking the decision and feeling the decision might
very well be a property of our brain.

:)

The brain _is_ the "he". It>s one and the same. It>s not "might very will
be", it>s "obviously is".

[/quote]
Hi,
I personally believe that, it obviously is that way ( brain
creates the 'i'), but i cannot cite reference to any recognised and
accepted paper/theory which clearly establishes the above. That is why
i prefer to put the 'might very well be'. Can anyone post any link/
pointer to one ?
Pardon the ignorance :)

[quote]All this experiment shows is that behavior in one part of the brain can
predict behavior in another part of the brain 10 seconds before it happens
in this one very specific and very unusual type of experiment.

It>s not valid to claim that "the brain made the decision was made 10
seconds before the person was aware of it". The behavior which happened 10
seconds _before_ the decision was simply a precursor which was highly
predictive of what the decision would turn out to be.

Think for example what would happen if we took this experiment out of the
brain, and simply asked people to make a simple binary decision but to talk
about what they were thinking leading up to the decision and the hitting of
one of the buttons. Ask them to repeat this many times, then analyze
everything they said and did leading up to the hitting the button and see
if you can find any "tells" in their words or their patterns of behavior
that were predictive of which button they were going to hit. Maybe, every
time they hit the black button, they scratched their nose 10 seconds before
picking the black button.

If you carefully carefully analyzed everything they did, it>s _highly_
likely you could isolate some behavior which was predictive of the decision
they would make that could show up 10 seconds before they hit one of the
buttons.

Just because they scratched their nose, and the nose scratch was predictive
of them picking one button over the other, is that justification to say the
brain made the decision 10 seconds before the person was aware of the
decision? I don>t think so.

The fact is, we are machines which do what we do for very deterministic
reasons. Whether we can understand what those reasons are is not
important. Things that happen in our past tend to be predictive of what we
will do in the future because we are deterministic machines. Not just 10
seconds in the future, but 10 years in the future. The fact there there is
some brain behavior (probably no more relevant than a nose scratch) which
turns out to be predictive of a behavior 10 seconds into the future should
not be a big surprise to anyone.

[/quote]
Agreed.

Best regards,
Pranav

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
If we didn>t have C, we would have had BASI, OBOL and PASAL.

John Hasenkam · Guest

"Curt Welch" <curt@kcwc.com> wrote in message
news:20080416122109.799$iL@newsreader.com...
[quote]JHasenkam@gmail.com wrote:
On Apr 16, 4:16 am, c...@kcwc.com (Curt Welch) wrote:
Pranav Peshwe <pranavpes...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Apr 14, 6:19 am, "John Hasenkam" <jo...@goawayplease.com> wrote:
In a way not surprising but I find the 10 sec delay suspicious. It
is also a simple decision making process(left or right button). I
don>t think that is representative of most decision making
processes.

http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html

Your brain makes up its mind up to ten seconds before you realize
it, according to researchers. By looking at brain activity while
making a decision, the researchers could predict what choice people
would make before they themselves were even aware of having made a
decision.

...

Ten seconds seems a bit too much. What about split second decisions
like the ones we have to take while driving or playing ?

They are no trying to claim that _all_ behavior can be predicted 10
seconds before it happens or before we can report being aware of our
decision, just this one very specific type of test which had no time
limit on the decision.

Also, it is
the brain which takes the decision and it is the brain itself which
gives the feeling to the individual that 'he' has taken a decision,
so the delay between taking the decision and feeling the decision
might very well be a property of our brain.

:)

The brain _is_ the "he". It>s one and the same. It>s not "might very
will be", it>s "obviously is".
[/quote]
No, you are confusing matters. There is no you to answer your question.

It may also be possible to argue that all behavior constitutes learning,
hence in all behavior there exists a degree of randomness.

Wolf K. · Guest

Entertained by my own EIMC wrote:
[quote]Wolf K. wrote:
Curt Welch wrote:
JHasenkam@gmail.com wrote:
[...]
Not quite sure what you mean by "deterministic" Curt but I>m inclined
to think that the play of randomness is important in learning and
moreso in creating. I don>t think we can convincingly argue that our
behavior is determined. That may be true but at present there is
insufficient evidence to make the claim.

In that context I mean it only loosely and not strictly
deterministic. I>m
not saying strictly deterministic such as a computer program. I>m
just say
that brains, like all matter, follow the laws of physics which creates a
great deal of predictability in their behavior. Current behavior is
highly
predictive of future behavior. The fact that a high resolution brain
scan
is able to detect behavior which, under just the right condition, is
predictive of behavior 10 seconds in the future should not be seen as
all
that surprising.
[...]

"Determined" does equal "predictable."

Then all is etymologically well, since if a person is at all familiar to
us (even just by belonging to the same species as us) the same such as
her behavior is largely predictable.
[/quote]

Sorry, I meant to type "determined'" does NOT equal "predictable."

Clumsy fingers... ;-)

--
wolf k.

Alpha · Guest

On Apr 17, 10:24 am, Lester Zick <dontbot...@nowhere.net> wrote:
[quote]On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:19:30 -0400, "Wolf K." <wolf...@sympatico.ca
wrote:

Entertained by my own EIMC wrote:
Wolf K. wrote:
Curt Welch wrote:
JHasen...@gmail.com wrote:
[...]
Not quite sure what you mean by "deterministic" Curt but I>m inclined
to think that the play of randomness is important in learning and
moreso in creating. I don>t think we can convincingly argue that our
behavior is determined. That may be true but at present there is
insufficient evidence to make the claim.

In that context I mean it only loosely and not strictly
deterministic. I>m
not saying strictly deterministic such as a computer program. I>m
just say
that brains, like all matter, follow the laws of physics which creates a
great deal of predictability in their behavior. Current behavior is
highly
predictive of future behavior. The fact that a high resolution brain
scan
is able to detect behavior which, under just the right condition, is
predictive of behavior 10 seconds in the future should not be seen as
all
that surprising.
[...]

"Determined" does equal "predictable."

Then all is etymologically well, since if a person is at all familiar to
us (even just by belonging to the same species as us) the same such as
her behavior is largely predictable.

Sorry, I meant to type "determined'" does NOT equal "predictable."

Clumsy fingers... ;-)

Curious, then, that the behavior of most seems quite predictable.
[/quote]
That may not be because determined though. Patterns can develop out of
the chaos and we assimilate those patterns and learn how to respond,
the bevy of responses (even if chaotic seeming) in turn create more
patterns etc.

[quote]
~v~~- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -[/quote]

zzbunker@netscape.net · Guest

On Apr 13, 9:19 pm, "John Hasenkam" <jo...@goawayplease.com> wrote:
[quote]In a way not surprising but I find the 10 sec delay suspicious. It is also a
simple decision making process(left or right button). I don>t think that is
representative of most decision making processes.

http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html

Your brain makes up its mind up to ten seconds before you realize it,
according to researchers. By looking at brain activity while making a
decision, the researchers could predict what choice people would make before
they themselves were even aware of having made a decision.
[/quote]
But that deception is also why high speed computers were invented.
Since humans only make decisions in advance because it takes
them months and years to realize that decisions even need to be
made.

[quote]
...[/quote]

Entertained by my own EIM · Guest

Wolf K. wrote:
[quote]Curt Welch wrote:
JHasenkam@gmail.com wrote:
[...]
Not quite sure what you mean by "deterministic" Curt but I>m inclined
to think that the play of randomness is important in learning and
moreso in creating. I don>t think we can convincingly argue that our
behavior is determined. That may be true but at present there is
insufficient evidence to make the claim.

In that context I mean it only loosely and not strictly
deterministic. I>m
not saying strictly deterministic such as a computer program. I>m just
say
that brains, like all matter, follow the laws of physics which creates a
great deal of predictability in their behavior. Current behavior is
highly
predictive of future behavior. The fact that a high resolution brain
scan
is able to detect behavior which, under just the right condition, is
predictive of behavior 10 seconds in the future should not be seen as all
that surprising.
[...]

"Determined" does equal "predictable."

Then all is etymologically well, since if a person is at all familiar to[/quote]
us (even just by belonging to the same species as us) the same such as
her behavior is largely predictable.

Lester Zick · Guest

On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:19:30 -0400, "Wolf K." <wolfkir@sympatico.ca>
wrote:

[quote]Entertained by my own EIMC wrote:
Wolf K. wrote:
Curt Welch wrote:
JHasenkam@gmail.com wrote:
[...]
Not quite sure what you mean by "deterministic" Curt but I>m inclined
to think that the play of randomness is important in learning and
moreso in creating. I don>t think we can convincingly argue that our
behavior is determined. That may be true but at present there is
insufficient evidence to make the claim.

In that context I mean it only loosely and not strictly
deterministic. I>m
not saying strictly deterministic such as a computer program. I>m
just say
that brains, like all matter, follow the laws of physics which creates a
great deal of predictability in their behavior. Current behavior is
highly
predictive of future behavior. The fact that a high resolution brain
scan
is able to detect behavior which, under just the right condition, is
predictive of behavior 10 seconds in the future should not be seen as
all
that surprising.
[...]

"Determined" does equal "predictable."

Then all is etymologically well, since if a person is at all familiar to
us (even just by belonging to the same species as us) the same such as
her behavior is largely predictable.

Sorry, I meant to type "determined'" does NOT equal "predictable."

Clumsy fingers... ;-)
[/quote]
Curious, then, that the behavior of most seems quite predictable.

~v~~

Lester Zick · Guest

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:21:14 -0700 (PDT), Alpha
<omegazero2003@yahoo.com> wrote:

[quote]On Apr 17, 10:24 am, Lester Zick <dontbot...@nowhere.net> wrote:
On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:19:30 -0400, "Wolf K." <wolf...@sympatico.ca
wrote:

Entertained by my own EIMC wrote:
Wolf K. wrote:
Curt Welch wrote:
JHasen...@gmail.com wrote:
[...]
Not quite sure what you mean by "deterministic" Curt but I>m inclined
to think that the play of randomness is important in learning and
moreso in creating. I don>t think we can convincingly argue that our
behavior is determined. That may be true but at present there is
insufficient evidence to make the claim.

In that context I mean it only loosely and not strictly
deterministic. I>m
not saying strictly deterministic such as a computer program. I>m
just say
that brains, like all matter, follow the laws of physics which creates a
great deal of predictability in their behavior. Current behavior is
highly
predictive of future behavior. The fact that a high resolution brain
scan
is able to detect behavior which, under just the right condition, is
predictive of behavior 10 seconds in the future should not be seen as
all
that surprising.
[...]

"Determined" does equal "predictable."

Then all is etymologically well, since if a person is at all familiar to
us (even just by belonging to the same species as us) the same such as
her behavior is largely predictable.

Sorry, I meant to type "determined'" does NOT equal "predictable."

Clumsy fingers... ;-)

Curious, then, that the behavior of most seems quite predictable.

That may not be because determined though.
[/quote]
Personally I can>t imagine an indeterminate predictable response,
Alpha.

[quote]Patterns can develop out of
the chaos and we assimilate those patterns and learn how to respond,
the bevy of responses (even if chaotic seeming) in turn create more
patterns etc.
[/quote]
The point is that I have yet to see anyone change their perspective on
ai or much of anything else. By and large they just stick to the same
old party line.

~v~~

Curt Welch · Guest

Lester Zick <dontbother@nowhere.net> wrote:
[quote]On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:21:14 -0700 (PDT), Alpha

The point is that I have yet to see anyone change their perspective on
ai or much of anything else. By and large they just stick to the same
old party line.
[/quote]
I>ve seen change in myself and others. It>s just very very slow.

--
Curt Welch http://CurtWelch.Com/
curt@kcwc.com http://NewsReader.Com/

Guest

On Apr 18, 11:13 pm, c...@kcwc.com (Curt Welch) wrote:
[quote]Lester Zick <dontbot...@nowhere.net> wrote:
On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 12:21:14 -0700 (PDT), Alpha
The point is that I have yet to see anyone change their perspective on
ai or much of anything else. By and large they just stick to the same
old party line.

I>ve seen change in myself and others. It>s just very very slow.

--
Curt Welch http://CurtWelch.Com/
c...@kcwc.com http://NewsReader.Com/
[/quote]
A frictionless billiards table B1 starts at time T1. B1, a replicate
to precision P, starts at time T2 > T1, with momentum ball_b2_i = 2*
momentum ball_b1_i. To what precision does B1 at T1+ t equal B2 at T2
+ ( T2- T1 )/ 2?

Also, the weight of the brain divided by the molecular weight of water
is in the billions+ (or was that cells). Even if particles are lined
up like billiard balls, what Earthly system, including other brains,
can replicate it?

Or, if you are merely interested in the state of a single neuron, less
numerous and scales larger than particles (DNA fits in every cell),
you can infer propogation-cone boundaries on what state it>s in. So
long as you take over the world in realtime, brains shouldn>t pose
resistance.

neo · Guest

John Hasenkam wrote:
[quote]In a way not surprising but I find the 10 sec delay suspicious. It is also a
simple decision making process(left or right button). I don>t think that is
representative of most decision making processes.

http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html

Your brain makes up its mind up to ten seconds before you realize it,
according to researchers. By looking at brain activity while making a
decision, the researchers could predict what choice people would make before
they themselves were even aware of having made a decision.
[/quote]
Interesting. Since last few days, I am thinking over 'free will'.
Although my conclusion is not scientific, still it agrees with
abovementioned research. Decision about every letter I am typing is
taken befor 'I' know it.

Scientists say decision is taken 10 seconds before I realize it.
Whether rocket launch will take place or not, decision is already
taken by people in NASA control room and they don>t even know it!

Am I going to post this message?

Countdown...
10,
9,
8,
7,
6,
5,
4,
3,
2,
1

Mike · Guest

On May 10, 3:13 am, neo <n....@live.ru> wrote:
[quote]John Hasenkam wrote:
In a way not surprising but I find the 10 sec delay suspicious. It is also a
simple decision making process(left or right button). I don>t think that is
representative of most decision making processes.

http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html

Your brain makes up its mind up to ten seconds before you realize it,
according to researchers. By looking at brain activity while making a
decision, the researchers could predict what choice people would make before
they themselves were even aware of having made a decision.

Interesting. Since last few days, I am thinking over 'free will'.
Although my conclusion is not scientific, still it agrees with
abovementioned research. Decision about every letter I am typing is
taken befor 'I' know it.

Scientists say decision is taken 10 seconds before I realize it.
Whether rocket launch will take place or not, decision is already
taken by people in NASA control room and they don>t even know it!

Am I going to post this message?

Countdown...
10,
9,
8,
7,
6,
5,
4,
3,
2,
1
[/quote]
Time, traveling backward in its inevitable march
toward tomorrow, allows us to forget that which
has not yet been remembered.
What>d I say?
Oh now I remember I forgot.
And that>s right.

Once while winding my way through the earth
toward the molten center, I ate a forbidden
mushroom. I spend the next million years in
a frozen wasteland with no protection from
the cold. And when my knee touched the
ground I remembered that those million years
lasted only as long as it took for me to go
from a standing position to resting on one knee.

Afterward, we smoked cigarettes which I had
forgotten and walked backwards for days which
saved a lot of time and fooled the enemy.
You should try it some time as soon as you reach

10.

9.

8.

7.

6.

5.

4.

3.

2.

Here

neo · Guest

Mike wrote:
[quote]On May 10, 3:13 am, neo <n....@live.ru> wrote:
John Hasenkam wrote:
In a way not surprising but I find the 10 sec delay suspicious. It is also a
simple decision making process(left or right button). I don>t think that is
representative of most decision making processes.

http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html

Your brain makes up its mind up to ten seconds before you realize it,
according to researchers. By looking at brain activity while making a
decision, the researchers could predict what choice people would make before
they themselves were even aware of having made a decision.

Interesting. Since last few days, I am thinking over 'free will'.
Although my conclusion is not scientific, still it agrees with
abovementioned research. Decision about every letter I am typing is
taken befor 'I' know it.

Scientists say decision is taken 10 seconds before I realize it.
Whether rocket launch will take place or not, decision is already
taken by people in NASA control room and they don>t even know it!

Am I going to post this message?

Countdown...
10,
9,
8,
7,
6,
5,
4,
3,
2,
1

Time, traveling backward in its inevitable march
toward tomorrow, allows us to forget that which
has not yet been remembered.
What>d I say?
Oh now I remember I forgot.
And that>s right.

Once while winding my way through the earth
toward the molten center, I ate a forbidden
mushroom. I spend the next million years in
a frozen wasteland with no protection from
the cold. And when my knee touched the
ground I remembered that those million years
lasted only as long as it took for me to go
from a standing position to resting on one knee.

Afterward, we smoked cigarettes which I had
forgotten and walked backwards for days which
saved a lot of time and fooled the enemy.
You should try it some time as soon as you reach

10.

9.

8.

7.

6.

5.

4.

3.

2.
[/quote]
Tactonic plates under my building collided. Seismic waves reached to
my building in 5 seconds. It took 2 seconds for me to decide. It is
earthquake! But my brain
had taken that decision 10 seconds before, 3 seconds before collision
of tactonic plates. But my brain told me after 10 seconds. Now
building is crashed and I am dead.

My stupid brain is also dead.

Mike · Guest

On May 10, 11:59 am, neo <n....@live.ru> wrote:
[quote]Mike wrote:
On May 10, 3:13 am, neo <n....@live.ru> wrote:
John Hasenkam wrote:
In a way not surprising but I find the 10 sec delay suspicious. It is also a
simple decision making process(left or right button). I don>t think that is
representative of most decision making processes.

http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080411/full/news.2008.751.html

Your brain makes up its mind up to ten seconds before you realize it,
according to researchers. By looking at brain activity while making a
decision, the researchers could predict what choice people would make before
they themselves were even aware of having made a decision.

Interesting. Since last few days, I am thinking over 'free will'.
Although my conclusion is not scientific, still it agrees with
abovementioned research. Decision about every letter I am typing is
taken befor 'I' know it.

Scientists say decision is taken 10 seconds before I realize it.
Whether rocket launch will take place or not, decision is already
taken by people in NASA control room and they don>t even know it!

Am I going to post this message?

Countdown...
10,
9,
8,
7,
6,
5,
4,
3,
2,
1

Time, traveling backward in its inevitable march
toward tomorrow, allows us to forget that which
has not yet been remembered.
What>d I say?
Oh now I remember I forgot.
And that>s right.

Once while winding my way through the earth
toward the molten center, I ate a forbidden
mushroom. I spend the next million years in
a frozen wasteland with no protection from
the cold. And when my knee touched the
ground I remembered that those million years
lasted only as long as it took for me to go
from a standing position to resting on one knee.

Afterward, we smoked cigarettes which I had
forgotten and walked backwards for days which
saved a lot of time and fooled the enemy.
You should try it some time as soon as you reach

10.

9.

8.

7.

6.

5.

4.

3.

2.

Tactonic plates under my building collided. Seismic waves reached to
my building in 5 seconds. It took 2 seconds for me to decide. It is
earthquake! But my brain
had taken that decision 10 seconds before, 3 seconds before collision
of tactonic plates. But my brain told me after 10 seconds. Now
building is crashed and I am dead.

My stupid brain is also dead.
[/quote]
Welcome to my world.


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