Science and Technology news... :: View topic - An interesting view on how 'green' CFLs really are:

Don Klipstein · Guest

In article <g6p5m7$1q8f$1@newsreader2.mclink.it>, Emanuele wrote:
[quote]Jan Panteltje ha scritto:
An interesting view on how 'green' CFLs really are:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/TECH/07/27/eco.flourescent/index.html

So, LEDs?

In this days i am writing an article about CFL and Leds.
I will post the link, just finished

These are the last related articles

SNIP[/quote]

[quote]http://dev.emcelettronica.com/luminous-efficacy
[/quote]
On the 160 lm/W prototype, noted on the graph as a Cree one: Can you
cite a link to it? I frequently check into the "Press Room" section of
Cree>s website and I have yet to hear of this.

On the statement that 150-160 lumen/watt LEDs will be in production
within 1 or 2 years: It appeared to me to take 3 years from announcement
of a prototype to availability of production units for 60 lumens/watt.

That article states that 1, 3 and 5 watt HPLEDs have efficacies 10 times
more than that of incandescents. Ones achieving 100 lumens/watt do so
at 350 mA, which means slightly over 1 watt. 60 watt "standard" and
"soft white" 120V A19 incandescents achieve 14-14.8 lumens/watt and 100
watt ones achieve 16.9-17.5.
Efficacy is less at higher currents, even with Cree XRE, Seoul
Semiconductor P4, and Lumileds Luxeon Rebel and Luxeon K2/TFFC.
For example, according to Lumileds' "DS60" datasheet, the top rank of
Luxeon K2/TFFC has typical output of 170 lumens at 700 mA (and typical
voltage drop around 3.5 volts), for 69 lumens/watt. This figure decreases
as current increases from there. The best avauilable from Cree are a
little better.

I have yet to know of an available 3 watt LED that achieves 100
lumens/watt at 3 watts. Can you cite one that I can buy?

As for that chart showing among other things percentage of light from
the lamp exiting the luminaire ("efficienza corpo radiante"), where does
the 30-50% figure for incandescents, repeated for halogens, come from?
That chart also has this being 50-60% for CFLs but 95% for LEDs.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

Don Klipstein · Guest

In article <g6p5m7$1q8f$1@newsreader2.mclink.it>, Emanuele wrote:
[quote]Jan Panteltje ha scritto:
An interesting view on how 'green' CFLs really are:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/TECH/07/27/eco.flourescent/index.html

So, LEDs?

In this days i am writing an article about CFL and Leds.
I will post the link, just finished

These are the last related articles

SNIP[/quote]

[quote]http://dev.emcelettronica.com/luminous-efficacy
[/quote]
On the 160 lm/W prototype, noted on the graph as a Cree one: Can you
cite a link to it? I frequently check into the "Press Room" section of
Cree>s website and I have yet to hear of this.

On the statement that 150-160 lumen/watt LEDs will be in production
within 1 or 2 years: It appeared to me to take 3 years from announcement
of a prototype to availability of production units for 60 lumens/watt.

That article states that 1, 3 and 5 watt HPLEDs have efficacies 10 times
more than that of incandescents. Ones achieving 100 lumens/watt do so
at 350 mA, which means slightly over 1 watt. 60 watt "standard" and
"soft white" 120V A19 incandescents achieve 14-14.8 lumens/watt and 100
watt ones achieve 16.9-17.5.
Efficacy is less at higher currents, even with Cree XRE, Seoul
Semiconductor P4, and Lumileds Luxeon Rebel and Luxeon K2/TFFC.
For example, according to Lumileds' "DS60" datasheet, the top rank of
Luxeon K2/TFFC has typical output of 170 lumens at 700 mA (and typical
voltage drop around 3.5 volts), for 69 lumens/watt. This figure decreases
as current increases from there. The best avauilable from Cree are a
little better.

I have yet to know of an available 3 watt LED that achieves 100
lumens/watt at 3 watts. Can you cite one that I can buy?

As for that chart showing among other things percentage of light from
the lamp exiting the luminaire ("efficienza corpo radiante"), where does
the 30-50% figure for incandescents, repeated for halogens, come from?
That chart also has this being 50-60% for CFLs but 95% for LEDs.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

Michael A. Terrell · Guest

Kris Krieger wrote:
[quote]
Also, from all I>ve read and heard, there is a US policy of not exporting
birth control to the poor in various nations, a policy which is not based
upon the would-be recipients own needs, desires, or choice, but rather,
upon the personal beliefs regarding morality of people here.
[/quote]

Over the years I have seen a bunch of news stories about attempts to
provide birth control pills in poor African nations. They provided the
pills and classes on how to use them, then ome back to find they weren>t
taken properly, or the women made jewlery out of them. It>s just like
drilling wells and providing modern farming tools. They tach them how to
farm, then the next year they just eat the seed corn and let the tools
rust away. Some people don>t want a better life, if it means they have
to do anything for themselves. that is why thye live like they do. It>s
the same, all over the world. If those people were in the US, they would
be trailer trash. If they wanted a better life, they would move to a
town where they could find work, better food, and a better life. You
just can>t help spme people.

[quote]It>s one of those thing that seems obvious, but runs head-on into very
deeply-held beliffs which oppose voluntary population reduction -
curiously, a great people seem to oppose birth control *far* more bitterly
than they oppose war...
[/quote]

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Spehro Pefhany · Guest

On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:38:08 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

[quote]
Kris Krieger wrote:

Also, from all I>ve read and heard, there is a US policy of not exporting
birth control to the poor in various nations, a policy which is not based
upon the would-be recipients own needs, desires, or choice, but rather,
upon the personal beliefs regarding morality of people here.

Over the years I have seen a bunch of news stories about attempts to
provide birth control pills in poor African nations. They provided the
pills and classes on how to use them, then ome back to find they weren>t
taken properly, or the women made jewlery out of them. It>s just like
drilling wells and providing modern farming tools. They tach them how to
farm, then the next year they just eat the seed corn and let the tools
rust away. Some people don>t want a better life, if it means they have
to do anything for themselves. that is why thye live like they do. It>s
the same, all over the world. If those people were in the US, they would
be trailer trash. If they wanted a better life, they would move to a
town where they could find work, better food, and a better life. You
just can>t help spme people.
[/quote]
On a more uplifting note, have a look at the accomplishments of
Muhammad Yunus with the Grameen bank (microfinance).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grameen_Bank

Some of these people only needed a few Euros/dollars to get going.

[quote]It>s one of those thing that seems obvious, but runs head-on into very
deeply-held beliffs which oppose voluntary population reduction -
curiously, a great people seem to oppose birth control *far* more bitterly
than they oppose war...
[/quote]
Too much birth control and it becomes difficult to make war profits.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it>s the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Martin Griffith · Guest

On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:49:25 -0400, in sci.electronics.design Spehro
Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

[quote]Too much birth control and it becomes difficult to make war profits.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
[/quote]
And the pension systems needs more births. Pyramid sellers

martin

Spehro Pefhany · Guest

On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 22:39:20 +0200, Martin Griffith
<mart_in_medina@yah00.es> wrote:

[quote]On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 15:49:25 -0400, in sci.electronics.design Spehro
Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

Too much birth control and it becomes difficult to make war profits.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

And the pension systems needs more births. Pyramid sellers

martin
[/quote]
That>s another problem. Cut back too quickly and there won>t be enough
to pay the bills and generally keep the economy going.

Also some countries have quite young populations and the population
will continue to increase for some time even if couples only produce
replacement quantities of rugrats, because the couples having children
now (say 25 years old) will live for another 50 years, and their
children for another 75 or 80. And their children>s children will be
around for the last 25 years of *their* lives. So until the median age
increases to 1/2 lifetime (which in turn is increasing almost
everywhere, particularly in the 3rd world), things are not stable even
with replacement-only reproduction.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it>s the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Kris Krieger · Guest

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:vq6dnfJPk7-8Xg3VnZ2dnUVZ_tHinZ2d@earthlink.com:

[quote]
Kris Krieger wrote:

Also, from all I>ve read and heard, there is a US policy of not
exporting birth control to the poor in various nations, a policy
which is not based upon the would-be recipients own needs, desires,
or choice, but rather, upon the personal beliefs regarding morality
of people here.

Over the years I have seen a bunch of news stories about attempts
to
provide birth control pills in poor African nations. They provided the
pills and classes on how to use them, then ome back to find they
weren>t taken properly, or the women made jewlery out of them. It>s
just like drilling wells and providing modern farming tools. They tach
them how to farm, then the next year they just eat the seed corn and
let the tools rust away.
[/quote]
I haven>t read that this happens after the proper useage of the thigns
has been explained. One forblem with condomns BTW is cultural -
although, in some cultures, a woman>s desire to have fewer children
and/or space them out better is considered to be irrelevant, and/o the
use of a condomn is seen as "unmanly". It>s how they were brought up,
and it>s nto some simple matter to get around cultural beliefs.

[quote]Some people don>t want a better life, if it
means they have to do anything for themselves. that is why thye live
like they do. It>s the same, all over the world. If those people were
in the US, they would be trailer trash. If they wanted a better life,
they would move to a town where they could find work, better food, and
a better life. You just can>t help spme people.
[/quote]
I think that>s both incredibly harsh, and at best inaccurate. Yes,
"some" people choose to live in ways that are self-destructive. But
you>re treading perilously close to implying that anyone who, for
example, lives way out in the countryside of a poor nation, who has never
had access to an education, and leads a hand-to-mouth existence, is only
that way by choice. Not everyone has access to the things that would
even make them aware they might have achoice, never mind to the things
that woudl allow them to actualy implement a choice to change their
situation.

It>s also inflammatory, and not relevent, to claim that someone would be
"trailer trash" if they lived in the US, becasue:
(1) unless you know specific cases, it>s an unproveable accusation;
and
(2) it ignores the cultural, environmental, political, and material
realities that exist in other parts of the world - not everyone can
simply move to a town, and a great many towns/cities are worse tahn the
villages becasue of extremely high unemployment, poverty that can>t even
be relieved by planting soemthign, due to there being no land, and an
overall dismal quality of life.

If you want to question whether any nation has an obligation to support
people in anotehr nation, then address *that* question, but don>t justify
an unwillingness to help/educate/etc. by merely implying that people
choose to live in countries such as Burma, where the military
dictatorship takes pretty much everything away from them, or in countries
where roving armed bands randomly commit acts of robber and genocide, and
so on, and so forth.

At the same time, it>s well-known that brain development suffers when a
child doesn>t receive (or can>t be given) adequate nutrition. When this
is combined with lack of education, and/or a damaging upbringing, it can
make "choice" *extremely* difficult. Now, I am a big beleiver in choice,
because of my own life, but I also know that there are a lot fo
circumstances taht make chocie difficult. And in the case of, say, the
people victimized by situations such as that in Darfur, the only
"choice" is to stay, of walk across the desert - they cannot "choose" to
not be poor.

As for education, anyone involved in education must take into account the
previous experience, education level, nutritional situation, culture, and
other aspects of the lives of the poeple being educated. One can>t just
go in to some traditional village, give a short talk, and claim to have
"educated" the people - even under teh best circumstances, education is a
*process* that requires understanding, openmindedness, and creative
thinking on the part of the educator. Any doof can stand in front of a
group of well-nourished, well-reared children with above-average
intelligence, and have them parrot back pretty much whatever is
presented, regardles sof how it>s persented. WHen one goes into a group
of disadvantaged children/adults, however, it>s an entirely different,
and very challenging, situation.

[quote]

It>s one of those thing that seems obvious, but runs head-on into
very deeply-held beliefs which oppose voluntary population reduction
- curiously, a great people seem to oppose birth control *far* more
bitterly than they oppose war...

[/quote]

Michael A. Terrell · Guest

Richard Henry wrote:
[quote]
On Jul 30, 12:38 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net
wrote:

Over the years I have seen a bunch of news stories about attempts to
provide birth control pills in poor African nations. They provided the
pills and classes on how to use them, then ome back to find they weren>t
taken properly, or the women made jewlery out of them. It>s just like
drilling wells and providing modern farming tools. They tach them how to
farm, then the next year they just eat the seed corn and let the tools
rust away. Some people don>t want a better life, if it means they have
to do anything for themselves. that is why thye live like they do. It>s
the same, all over the world. If those people were in the US, they would
be trailer trash. If they wanted a better life, they would move to a
town where they could find work, better food, and a better life. You
just can>t help spme people.

Nonsense.
[/quote]

Yawn. Some tribes have repeatedly refused to leave their land
because of tradition. Year after year of drought, they are sent food,
clothes and other things, and do absolutely nothing to improve their
lives, because they are being given what they need to live. Why do you
think it was so easy a couple hundred years ago for the british ships to
trade for a shipload of slaves? Some of the tribes lived by stealing
everything they could from others, instead of working. Before those
ships arrived, they caught and killed as many as they could, except for
a few slaves they kept. When the Europeans arrived with a shipload of
cargo, looking for trade they held them for the ships that followed.
They also captured and sold members of other tribes they didn>t like.
Some tribes had a strong work ethic, and some didn>t. They got tired of
having what they were working for being stolen at every turn.

I don>t care if you believe it or not, but it is the way some people
are, no matter where they come from.
7

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Michael A. Terrell · Guest

Kris Krieger wrote:
[quote]
"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:vq6dnfJPk7-8Xg3VnZ2dnUVZ_tHinZ2d@earthlink.com:

Kris Krieger wrote:

Also, from all I>ve read and heard, there is a US policy of not
exporting birth control to the poor in various nations, a policy
which is not based upon the would-be recipients own needs, desires,
or choice, but rather, upon the personal beliefs regarding morality
of people here.

Over the years I have seen a bunch of news stories about attempts
to
provide birth control pills in poor African nations. They provided the
pills and classes on how to use them, then ome back to find they
weren>t taken properly, or the women made jewlery out of them. It>s
just like drilling wells and providing modern farming tools. They tach
them how to farm, then the next year they just eat the seed corn and
let the tools rust away.

I haven>t read that this happens after the proper useage of the thigns
has been explained.
[/quote]

I saw the issue covered on TV network news in the '70s.

[quote]One forblem with condomns BTW is cultural -
although, in some cultures, a woman>s desire to have fewer children
and/or space them out better is considered to be irrelevant, and/o the
use of a condomn is seen as "unmanly".
[/quote]

No, it>s considered unmanly by some to not have a horde of kids they
fathered, whether they can take care of them, or not. We see the same
thing in other countries of so called men that get a woman pregnant,
then look for another. They don>t give a damn about the women or any of
the kids, as long as they can brag about how much of a man they are.

[quote]It>s how they were brought up,
and it>s nto some simple matter to get around cultural beliefs.
[/quote]

Isn>t that what I said?

[quote]Some people don>t want a better life, if it
means they have to do anything for themselves. that is why thye live
like they do. It>s the same, all over the world. If those people were
in the US, they would be trailer trash. If they wanted a better life,
they would move to a town where they could find work, better food, and
a better life. You just can>t help spme people.

I think that>s both incredibly harsh, and at best inaccurate.
[/quote]

I said some, not all. You are trying to twist my meaning.

[quote]Yes,
"some" people choose to live in ways that are self-destructive. But
you>re treading perilously close to implying that anyone who, for
example, lives way out in the countryside of a poor nation, who has never
had access to an education, and leads a hand-to-mouth existence, is only
that way by choice.
[/quote]

Yawn. you are saying that. I AM TALKING ABOUT THOSE WHO WERE OFFERED
HELP TO MOVE TO WHERE THEY COULD IMPROVE THEIR LIVES, BUT CHOSE TO
REMAIN WHERE THEY CAN>T EVEN FEED ALL OF THEIR KIDS.

[quote]Not everyone has access to the things that would
even make them aware they might have achoice, never mind to the things
that woudl allow them to actualy implement a choice to change their
situation.

It>s also inflammatory, and not relevent, to claim that someone would be
"trailer trash" if they lived in the US, becasue:
[/quote]

Someone who refuses to work will do so where ever they live, anywhere
in the world. You stated above that cultural change is slow. Are you
saying you were wrong?

[quote](1) unless you know specific cases, it>s an unproveable accusation;
and
(2) it ignores the cultural, environmental, political, and material
realities that exist in other parts of the world - not everyone can
simply move to a town, and a great many towns/cities are worse tahn the
villages becasue of extremely high unemployment, poverty that can>t even
be relieved by planting soemthign, due to there being no land, and an
overall dismal quality of life.
[/quote]

People improve their lives only when they WANT to.

[quote]If you want to question whether any nation has an obligation to support
people in anotehr nation, then address *that* question, but don>t justify
an unwillingness to help/educate/etc.
[/quote]

I am the last person to deny help, but for how many generations? I am
now 100% disabled, forced to live at a below poverty level on a VA
pension that says I am not allowed to work, at all, yet I continue to
help others. I learned long ago to limit the help for people who keep
coming back, because they are too damn lazy to help themselves. If I had
all the time and money I>ve given away in the last 45 years, I would
have my home paid for, a newer vehicle, money in the bank, and not have
to worry till I died. I don>t, because I helped, and continue to help
others.

[quote]by merely implying that people
choose to live in countries such as Burma, where the military
dictatorship takes pretty much everything away from them, or in countries
where roving armed bands randomly commit acts of robber and genocide, and
so on, and so forth.
[/quote]

Where did I even imply a dictatorship? You>re trying to put your
words into my mouth, again.

[quote]At the same time, it>s well-known that brain development suffers when a
child doesn>t receive (or can>t be given) adequate nutrition. When this
is combined with lack of education, and/or a damaging upbringing, it can
make "choice" *extremely* difficult.
[/quote]

So, that is an excuse to leave them in that condition for more
generations, with a large percentage of the children dying before
puberty?

[quote]Now, I am a big beleiver in choice,
because of my own life, but I also know that there are a lot fo
circumstances taht make chocie difficult.
[/quote]

You aren>t the only one. I was born with health problems. I could
have applied for, and been declared disabled at 18, but I chose to start
working at 13, and worked until a few years ago when I couldn>t pass an
employment physical.

[quote]And in the case of, say, the
people victimized by situations such as that in Darfur, the only
"choice" is to stay, of walk across the desert - they cannot "choose" to
not be poor.
[/quote]

If enough wanted to leave, provisions can be made. Look at the
people who make rafts to leave Cuba, and the South Americans who make
their way to Mexico, or the United States. It takes planning, and
persistence. People will help, if you approach them the right way.

[quote]As for education, anyone involved in education must take into account the
previous experience, education level, nutritional situation, culture, and
other aspects of the lives of the poeple being educated. One can>t just
go in to some traditional village, give a short talk, and claim to have
"educated" the people - even under teh best circumstances, education is a
*process* that requires understanding, openmindedness, and creative
thinking on the part of the educator. Any doof can stand in front of a
group of well-nourished, well-reared children with above-average
intelligence, and have them parrot back pretty much whatever is
presented, regardles sof how it>s persented. WHen one goes into a group
of disadvantaged children/adults, however, it>s an entirely different,
and very challenging, situation.
[/quote]

You stated above that they can>t learn because of nutrition problems.
These will not be solved in the desert. It will take several generations
of them living where food, and education are available to get even some
of them to even care. No one needed an education before, so what do
they care? They see no reason for it, and never will, as long as they
are isolated, by their on choice.

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sheep.

James Arthur · Guest

Richard Henry wrote:
[quote]On Jul 30, 12:38 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net
wrote:
Over the years I have seen a bunch of news stories about attempts to
provide birth control pills in poor African nations. They provided the
pills and classes on how to use them, then ome back to find they weren>t
taken properly, or the women made jewlery out of them. It>s just like
drilling wells and providing modern farming tools. They tach them how to
farm, then the next year they just eat the seed corn and let the tools
rust away. Some people don>t want a better life, if it means they have
to do anything for themselves. that is why thye live like they do. It>s
the same, all over the world. If those people were in the US, they would
be trailer trash. If they wanted a better life, they would move to a
town where they could find work, better food, and a better life. You
just can>t help spme people.

Nonsense.
[/quote]
In developing countries women>s main job is having
and rearing children. Given alternatives, they
often take them.

Education of women is the most effective form of
birth control.

James Arthur

Joel Koltner · Guest

Say Michael,

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:E9OdndpoQ8FseQ3VnZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@earthlink.com...
[quote]I am
now 100% disabled, forced to live at a below poverty level on a VA
pension that says I am not allowed to work, at all, yet I continue to
help others.
[/quote]
Can you elaborate on this? Is the thinking something like, "well, if you
start working, clearly you>re not 100% 'disabled' now, are you? -- so we>re
doing to start reducing your pension!" -- Or something similarly ridiculous?

---Joel

Michael A. Terrell · Guest

Joel Koltner wrote:
[quote]
Say Michael,

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:E9OdndpoQ8FseQ3VnZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@earthlink.com...
I am
now 100% disabled, forced to live at a below poverty level on a VA
pension that says I am not allowed to work, at all, yet I continue to
help others.

Can you elaborate on this? Is the thinking something like, "well, if you
start working, clearly you>re not 100% 'disabled' now, are you? -- so we>re
doing to start reducing your pension!" -- Or something similarly ridiculous?

---Joel
[/quote]

Any paid work at all, and I lose both the pension, and the zero
co-pay on medication. IOW, it>s all or nothing with the VA. My military
medical records are missing, so i had to apply for 'non service
connected'. If it was the 'service connected' I should be receiving, I
would get over three times what I do, and be allowed dental care. They
would give me a power wheelchair and custom van every three years, as
well.

BTW, I tried to connect a printer to that last Mandriva Linux
computer you sent me, and it wants the administrator password. Could
you e-mail me about it?

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sheep.

Joel Koltner · Guest

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:YeudnWGHjfZ5dA3VnZ2dnUVZ_hudnZ2d@earthlink.com...
[quote]Any paid work at all, and I lose both the pension, and the zero
co-pay on medication. IOW, it>s all or nothing with the VA.
[/quote]
That sucks. :-(

[quote]My military
medical records are missing, so i had to apply for 'non service
connected'. If it was the 'service connected' I should be receiving, I
would get over three times what I do, and be allowed dental care.
[/quote]
Sheesh... you>d think they>d give you the benefit of the doubt in such cases
since presumably it was the government that lost your medical records?

It sounds like you>d have a really good case here for getting some news
program interested in demonstrating how servicemen get unfairly screwed
over...

(I am happy to see that some states are now waiving or heavily subsidizing
college tuition for servicemen, and that a ton of money was allocated a few
months back for those who served post-9/11.)

[quote]BTW, I tried to connect a printer to that last Mandriva Linux
computer you sent me, and it wants the administrator password. Could
you e-mail me about it?
[/quote]
Mmm... try "password" (without quotes)? If it>s not that, let me know and
I>ll try to remember what else it might be.

---Joel

James Arthur · Guest

Joel Koltner wrote:
[quote]Say Michael,

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:E9OdndpoQ8FseQ3VnZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@earthlink.com...
I am
now 100% disabled, forced to live at a below poverty level on a VA
pension that says I am not allowed to work, at all, yet I continue to
help others.

Can you elaborate on this? Is the thinking something like, "well, if you
start working, clearly you>re not 100% 'disabled' now, are you? -- so we>re
doing to start reducing your pension!" -- Or something similarly ridiculous?

---Joel
[/quote]
Obviously MT should be allowed to work. That could only be
good for everyone.

That>s the problem with dictates from afar--a bunch of inflexible
rules made by people not on the scene, to try and lock out the
undeserving.

The main effect being to inconvenience the honest people.

I recently heard of a socialized medicine setup I might even
endorse: a city in Texas decided to offer their own. Locally
controlled, easily changed by the people in it, responsive to
their needs and desires. Offered for $40/month to any employed
person who wants it.

The key being that it>s theirs, and under their control. No
national fights in Congress over benefits, who>s eligible,
illegal immigrants, etc., no need to convince Nancy Pelosi,
the NEA, or whoever.

This could be BS though--I heard of it 3rd-hand by
word-of-mouth; haven>t verified the details yet.

Cheers,
James Arthur

Joel Koltner · Guest

"James Arthur" <bogusabdsqy@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:W17kk.542$JH5.461@trnddc06...
[quote]Obviously MT should be allowed to work. That could only be
good for everyone.
[/quote]
Absolutely.

[quote]I recently heard of a socialized medicine setup I might even
endorse: a city in Texas decided to offer their own. Locally
controlled, easily changed by the people in it, responsive to
their needs and desires. Offered for $40/month to any employed
person who wants it.

This could be BS though--I heard of it 3rd-hand by
word-of-mouth; haven>t verified the details yet.
[/quote]
Unless they contracted with doctors themselves, I suspect that $40/month isn>t
nearly enough for them to break even, unfortunately.

On the other hand, Wal*Mart clinics supposedly run ~$40-$65, which is not that
much more than some co-pays (it>s $35/visit on the plan I have at work, and
it>s counted as a "visit" even when you go to do something like pick up lab
test results and have the doctor spend literally less than 3 minutes with you
to tell you, "everything>s fine").

---Joel


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